Granite for a Table Saw top ???

[Art Mulder]

Anyone else see the note on the Popular Woodworking (http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/Exclusive+Steel+City+Will+Rock+Your+World.aspx) website that Steel City is coming out with a table saw that has a 2" thick granite top instead of cast iron? :eek:

I had to check three times to be sure that this wasn't April first.

So, instead of buying some new iron, we're going to buy some new rock?

I dunno, I've heard that granite can be brittle, yet they must know that also.
...art

[Ed Falis]

Does that mean you get to put the saw in the kitchen?

[scott spencer]

I did see that! Lots of questions come up...how well does this stuff hold screw threads? I love the original thinking.

[Raney Nelson]

I did see that! Lots of questions come up...how well does this stuff hold screw threads? I love the original thinking.

According to the blog, it doesn't: it requires inserts epoxied into the top for threads and connection.

[Grant Wilkinson]

It will be interesting to see how it holds up. We have a granite top on a kitchen island, and it scratches quite easily. It is easy to polish them out, but I can't see it replacing steel any time soon.
I can see having a nice faux marble saw in my shop, though. :)

[Dick Strauss]

Granite makes sense to me...more stable, more mass to dampen vibration, has a lower coefficient of friction, does not rust, .....

My neighbor who is a retired patternmaker uses a 2" thick granite plate for the base of his overarm router. The plate is true to within +/-.001 over the 2'x3' slab.


Dick

[Steven Wilson]

Granite would get around the problem of having to season castings for a few years prior to machining. You would get a flat top that would stay flat right from the getgo.

[Kyle Kraft]

There are some metalworking machines that have granite bases, machining centers, grinders, and maybe some others. I haven't been to IMTS in Chicago in several years, so maybe you machinists can chime in.

[Andrew Williams]

just dont hit it with a ball peen hammer ;)

[Paul Canaris]

Martin while not specifically doing this uses a lot of alternative materials to good effect on many of their designs. Granite reference plates have been a machining industry staple for years.

[Dave Ray]

Seems to be a lot of pluses for granit. Got to give Steel City credit for innovation. Just maybe the wave of the future. The tool has a riving knife also. Just imagine a tool with these features, coupled with a sliding table and the Saw Stop safety feature. The future for woodworking is looking good when major companies/individiuals constantly strive to improve the tools of our trade. We live in an exciting woodworking time, plus thanks to this computer era and SMC we learn about these tools almost at the time they are created.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I'm saying - - NO. It'll not happen.

The reasons:
granite is way too costly as a raw material and too costly to machine by comparison.
Granite is brittle
Granite must be thick to take torsional or expansive stress. The table saw top is a highly stressed structure especially if the Trunnion is to be hung from it.
Granite's necessary thickness will force the engineers to limit the amount of free saw blade you can get above the table.


A far far better choice would be blanchard ground aluminum plate preferably with a hard coat anodize.

But other than rust and humid shops there is no real reason to seek an alternative to cast iron. It's a technology that any one can get right. And done right it's pretty permanent.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Granite would get around the problem of having to season castings for a few years prior to machining. You would get a flat top that would stay flat right from the getgo.


So would epoxy coated concrete.
And it'd be cheaper, tougher (if reinforced with steel), and easier to repair.

I have been planning on building a big drum sander from concrete, The one thing that's holding me back is the manufacturing of the roller drums. I may have to have 'em custom made.

[David DeCristoforo]

"I'm saying - - NO...."

Have to agree for all the reasons stated. In addition, I drill and tap holes in my machine tops for attaching jigs, feeder bases, etc, something that would be far more difficult if not impossible with a stone top.

"...there is no real reason to seek an alternative to cast iron..."

Agreed. CI is the "best" material for this application. I don't care for alum either, anodized or not.

[Noah Katz]

"I'm saying - - NO. It'll not happen."

I guess you didn't read the article - they *are* doing it.

The granite only adds $50 over a CI top.

There's a granite quarry and cheap skilled labor to process it near the factory.

I'll take a 2" thick, stable, flat, heavy granite slab over a webbed CI casting any day.

The saw is only $1050 and has a true riving knife.

If this was out 6 mos ago, I'd have thought twice before getting a PM2000.

[Robert Mayer]

Theres plenty of reasons to try and replace ci. It rusts at the first sign of moisture, may not always stay flat, plus leveling up two ci extensions is a pain in the a**.

[Gary Keedwell]

Theres plenty of reasons to try and replace ci. It rusts at the first sign of moisture, may not always stay flat, plus leveling up two ci extensions is a pain in the a**.


I'm with you Robert...I would welcome a real flat surface. Can also use it for inspection and assembly. Also easy glue clean-ups.
Gary K. PS. Hope my old lady don't throw out any potatoes for me to peel.

[Carl Crout]

I think that it would be too brittle. I will stick with cast iron..

[Wilbur Pan]

just dont hit it with a ball peen hammer ;)

I have to ask: why would one hit a cast iron table saw table with a ball peen hammer? ;)

[Rick Levine]

But guys, think of how easy it will be to convince you wives to buy one. Just tell her you'll be able to help with the baking and home made pizza.

[Don Bullock]

Anyone else see the note on the Popular Woodworking (http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/Exclusive+Steel+City+Will+Rock+Your+World.aspx) website that Steel City is coming out with a table saw that has a 2" thick granite top instead of cast iron? :eek:

I had to check three times to be sure that this wasn't April first.

So, instead of buying some new iron, we're going to buy some new rock?

I dunno, I've heard that granite can be brittle, yet they must know that also.
...art

Lunch anyone?;) :D

Seriously, it sure does look interesting. I'd love to see one. Perhaps they've come up with a great idea. Only time will tell, just wit all new ideas.

[Gary Keedwell]

What's gonna happen to all those magnetic featherboards?:eek:

Gary K.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I have to ask: why would one hit a cast iron table saw table with a ball peen hammer? ;)

Sometimes you just have a really bad day.

My old Crapsman TS survived a 16 pound sledge impact.

There's a dent but no warp & no crack.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

"I drill and tap holes in my machine tops for attaching jigs, feeder bases, etc.

SHHHH. elsewhere in another forum I admitted to this most profound of the seven deadly sins and brought a firestorm of offensive angry comments down on my head.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

"I'm saying - - NO. It'll not happen."

I guess you didn't read the article - they *are* doing it.


Wow~!! I guess I didn't read the article indeed.


The granite only adds $50 over a CI top.

I am most surprised.



I'll take a 2" thick, stable, flat, heavy granite slab over a webbed CI casting any day.I can not see any up side to granite over cast iron.
In theory it can be flatter but only if they make it flatter. That's not a cheap process. I'd rather have cast that's been dipped in NO2 or just sat around for a few years or at the very least processed correctly so as to avoid the need for seasoning.

How do they give you the full use of the blade?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

But guys, think of how easy it will be to convince you wives to buy one. Just tell her you'll be able to help with the baking and home made pizza.

Yah I already been there and did that.

I wanted a Texas Sizzler III with the rotisserie.

Now guess who does most the cooking year round?

It does cook things way far better though.

[Gary Herrmann]

If nothing else, I applaud them for being innovative.

[Paul Douglass]

To start with I confess I don't know what I'm talking about but here are my thoughts to the nay sayers. The blade height may be accomplished by the design of the table top, maybe where the blade comes up it is not 2" thick.

CI, I think is also brittle, think I've even seen some pictures of old unisaws that have a corner broke off.. maybe not, I'm getting old and the mind wonders.

Granite has been uses in kitchens and other parts of homes and industry for years and I have not read a lot about it breaking under use.

These guys that are making these saws are not new to the industry. They came from a long line of Delta work, if I read about Steel City being formed correctly. They know table saws and what they are used for. Makes me feel maybe they have given this some real thought, even if it was over a few beers!

I hope it works for them.

[Tom Henderson2]

"I'm saying - - NO. It'll not happen."

I guess you didn't read the article - they *are* doing it.



Edsel started making cars, too. Clearly they are going to give it a try, and I give them a lot of credit for the innovation.





I'll take a 2" thick, stable, flat, heavy granite slab over a webbed CI casting any day.


Granite has no real intrinsic advantages over cast iron and the thickness and brittleness issues are real disadvantages.

I think the stress-relieving issue is overblown; in my view most of the flatness issues we have encountered are due to poor machining, not necessarily internal stresses. A poorly-ground granite top will be just as bad as a poorly-ground cast iron top.

Reinforced concrete as a previous poster suggested would probably be superior to granite since the rebars would hold it together if/when the base material fractured. A properly-designed composite table top (fiberglass, epoxy, etc) might also be a good alternative.

I'll also stick my neck out a bit and say we obsess about table flatness more than we probably need too; I doubt that most of us could tell the difference between parts cut on a dead-flat table vs one with 0.005 or 0.010 deviation across the ~24" table top.

Blade squareness to the table and fence ARE much more significant to cut quality and finished-part dimensions, but those are generally independent of tabletop material.

I'm sure a granite table would make a great saw. And perhaps granite has advantages from a factory logistics point of view (i.e. cost, availability, logistics).

But I don't see that it would be in any way BETTER than a comparable-quality cast iron top.

My $0.02

[Wilbur Pan]

But I don't see that it would be in any way BETTER than a comparable-quality cast iron top.
A granite top would be heavier than a cast iron top.

Increased weight = increased stability/less vibration

[Wilbur Pan]

Granite has been uses in kitchens and other parts of homes and industry for years and I read a lot about it breaking under use.
A typical home application of granite uses slabs about 3/4" thick. The Steel City application is using a granite top 2" thick.

[John Schreiber]

I'm excited that Steel City is thinking up new ideas here. Even if this is a flop, I'm glad to see somebody willing to step out of the box.

They also mention making fences from granite. That's the way to keep things straight.

[David DeCristoforo]

"SHHHH. elsewhere in another forum I admitted to this most profound of the seven deadly sins and brought a firestorm of offensive angry comments down on my head."

Thanx for the warning Cliff. Over the years I have become immune to "firestorms of angry comments". I have found a thick skin to be a prerequisite for survival esp. on internet forums! So fire away. Yes, I drill holes in my machine tops and I think a stone top on a table saw is an absurd idea. But, as always, that's just MMHO....

[Anthony Anderson]

I am going to make a prediction, probably wrong-as usual, but I will make it anyway. I don't think this will go over that well. It will be a fad, as some of the Craftsman "innovations" have been in the past (prior to their current line of tools which seems to be getting pretty good reviews). I really don't feel that I need an extra 200-300lbs on my tablesaw. I experience no vibration whatsoever. Guys have been using quality cabinet saws for years, and I have heard no complaints on vibration, now with older contractor saws, that s a different story. The riving knife is going to draw some deserved praise. The only situation where I can think that a granite top would benefit someone, is if they live in a very humid environment, such as close to the ocean, or in the south or southeast, as Robert mentioned. They would not have to worry about rust on the top of the tablesaw. Now the rest of their tools, that is another story. Just my thoughts. Just to remind you, I said I am probably wrong. Bill

[Eugene A. Manzo III]

Fred and Barney Had a Granite Top on Their ROCKler saw along with their router bird. :p

[Owen Gregg]

It'll be interesting to see what type of granite they use. I'm betting on absolute black.

Also, I believe most home installations of granite countertops tend to be 3cm (~1 3/16"), though there certainly are a good portion of 2cm installations.

[Art Mann]

If nothing else, I applaud them for being innovative.

I applaud them for trying something new and different. In order for it to be innovative in my book, it needs to be superior to the previous alternatives. I think I will just call it different until the idea has proven itself.

[Ray Thomas]

I'm new here, but actually saw the stuff yesterday at AWFS and talked to the Steel City people. I hope this info helps. The machines do looked great. In all cases they told me that they will still have a cast iron version for each machine that has granite. They realize that not everyone will want granite. The additional cost at retail is $50.00 for any of the machines. On both the Table Saw and Band Saw, they have lower the trunions a bit so that you do not lose any cutting capacity thus in either case a granite table is not retro fittable to previous units. On the Jointer fences, they are reviewing now what competitive jointers would accept the fence. (I hope it fits the Delta, mine's been bad since day one.) The second one I recieved wasn't much better either. I asked them the big question, which is won't granite break? They admitted because it is a stone it can, but under normal shop conditions the tests they have done have been great. While not 100% official they are looking at doubling the standard 5 year warranty to 10 years for granite components to show they will stand behind it and give the customer a peace of mind. The band saw table was neat in that you don't have to have an insert pin in the end of the table where it is cut for the blade. All in all I give these guys credit for thinking outside the box. They have taken on the big guys and from what I see they are kicking there butt. They had 12 new tools that they didn't have last year at the IWF show in Atlanta. Jet has 2 or 3 and Delta from what I could tell has 3 new products that won't be available till late first quarter and a few they painted a diiferent color. I have seen both Delta and Jet's quality continue to lose ground because of cost reductions. The few old Delta reps I met at shows are gone and have been replace with young kids that know nothing, these guys are at least trying to give us an alternative and from what I saw yesterday I definitely will give them a try. Sorry I'm rambling. Anyway I hope this answers some of the questions I saw concerning the eariler post. I'm going to stop by their booth again today so if I learn anymore I will let you know.

Regards Ray

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

A granite top would be heavier than a cast iron top.

Increased weight = increased stability/less vibration

Doesn't Minimax do that with concrete in their machines now?

[Jim Becker]

Doesn't Minimax do that with concrete in their machines now?

Um...ever see a Martin? Built like a bridge...steel filled with concrete.

But there are two pieces of concrete in my S315WS saw...to help balance it. They are in the rear, bottom of the cabinet to help offset the huge weight up front where the wagon lives and the massive cast iron trunions.

[Noah Katz]

“How do they give you the full use of the blade?”

Good question; perhaps by narrowing the part of the arbor casting that moves into the throat plate opening and/or making the latter wider.

Those naysaying the stability issue must be lucky.

My previous CM TS had CI fence that wasn’t flat. I took it to be surface ground but every few thousandths of material removal relieved stresses and it couldn’t be flattened.

My Bench Dog CI router table is also .010” out in the center, which will tip the stock since the cutter is so close to the joint with the (flat) PM2000 CI wing.

Now I’ll have to drill/ream/pin the joint in several spots to make it flat.

[daniel lane]

I really don't feel that I need an extra 200-300lbs on my tablesaw. I experience no vibration whatsoever.

Just think of how nice it'll be to demonstrate the "dime test", though! ;)

[Wilbur Pan]

Um...ever see a Martin? Built like a bridge...steel filled with concrete.
Most Martins I've seen are built with a spruce top and mahogany or rosewood sides. ;)

[Wilbur Pan]

By the way, the part of China where the factory that makes Steel City equipment is well known (in China, at least) for granite quarries and working granite, and they have a lot of experience in working with it. Actually, there's some incredible stonework that is done in China. It's not usually done to Western tastes, so it's not exported out very much, but if you have a Chinese furniture store near you, you'll be able to see some examples.

If nothing else, the introduction of these saws would give the lie to the idea that Chinese factories can only imitate, and not innovate.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Um...ever see a Martin? Built like a bridge...steel filled with concrete.

Never had the pleasure.

[Dan Drager]

I'm curious as to what kind of work is being done on a TS top that would crack/break/chip a 2" chunk of granite? I use the heck out of my grizzly and have never hit it or slammed anything on it hard enough enough to break granite.

I live in WI and when the frost comes out of the ground in the spring I have a hell of a time keeping the rust away. Lots of wax and elbow grease would be saved by a granite top too.

Frankly, I hope it catches on. Good for them for getting out of the box.

[Pat Germain]

While I'm no geologist, I know the characteristics between different types of granite vary greatly. For example, I live next to Cheyenne Mountain which is mostly granite. The granite there is very brittle and would be worthless to mine.

However, granite imported from Brazil is very durable and makes great countertops. I don't know about Chinese granite, but I don't think they would bother mining it if was brittle and broke easily.

I understand it's easy to pooh-pooh new ideas and inovations. After all, a lot of them tank. However, every once in awhile we see something really swell. I'm hoping the granite top saws from Steel City fall into the latter category.

Example: When Harley Davidson switched from a chain drive to a kevlar belt back in the early 1980's, many people scoffed. "What? That won't last! That's gonna break! No way would I buy a bike with a belt drive!". As anyone around Harleys now knows, the belt drive was a huge success and is now one of the things which sets those bikes apart from the competition. Although, I'm sure there are still people around who are still scoffing.

I also recall people scoffing at TIVO when they introduced the DVR a few years ago...

[greg king]

I guess some sort of suction cup method will be the new replacement, but not sure how well this would work with all of the sawdust.

gk


What's gonna happen to all those magnetic featherboards?:eek:

Gary K.

[Randy Klein]

I guess some sort of suction cup method will be the new replacement, but not sure how well this would work with all of the sawdust.

gk

That's a good idea. Have you ever seen those industrial strength suction cups that pick up floor panels? Those stick to practically anything.