What Shoulder Plane?

[Michael Schwartz]

I am planning on getting a shoulder plane, I have been looking at the LN small shoulder plane, or the LV Medium Shoulder Plane, and the LV bullnose Rabbit Plane.

This would be my first shouler plane, I have an old wooden 1-5/8 skew rabbit plane that is a bit large for most work, but I got a good deal on it if you know what I mean :rolleyes:

I mostly need something for trimming the shoulders and cheeks of hand cut tennons, so since I won't be using them for rabbiting I don't really care about nickers as much.

Any input would be awsome.

[Mark Singer]

The LV medium is an excellent shoulder plane I have 4 at least

[Brian Hale]

The LV medium is an excellent shoulder plane I have 4 at least

Ditto ! ! !

A wonderful plane and a good first choice.

Brian :)

[Mike Henderson]

I vote for the LV medium, also.

Mike

[Michael Schwartz]

I will probably go for that and oddly enough it seems like it might be better than the LN. I have had a chance to see one and play arround with it and they seem very well made.

[Andy Hsieh]

LV medium - great all around size - ergonomics are great.

[Michael Schwartz]

The ergonomics are mostly what are driving me towards the LV Medium.

I can't really imagine how the LN would cut any better, after-all all the mechanics are basically the same. I prefer the LN bench and block planes to the LV, but I think LV has hit the nail on the head with their Shoulder Planes, and BU Smother, which I think I might get to go alongside my LN lA Jack.

[Henry Cavanaugh]

Love my LV Medium. Very confortable in my hand with the adjustable thingy on top and the finger holes.

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

I have both the LN and the LV medium, I use the LV all the time, the ergonomics and hand feel make it an extension of my hand ... I'll probably sell the LN in time.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Very few people use the Preston.Record/Clifton/LN shoulder planes in the way intended - I'm convinced the instructions were long ago lost - which is why they seem uncomfortable. Grab them by the front with the crux of the thumb and forefinger resting where the lever clamp comes out of the body and the thumb and forefinger grasping the fingerholds in the back sides of the plane. Then pull the plane towards you. You get tons of control, and you can see what you are doing, which is the point of a shoulder plane. you don't need the power of pushing the plane - you need the control of guiding the plane - try it you will see.

[Carl Crout]

I like my LV shoulder plane. Only complaint is that sometimes the holes (that you stick your fingers thru) could have been a little smoother.

I would buy it again though. Great for trimming tenons...

[Michael Schwartz]

So comparing the LV Medium Shoulder with the LN which is best? I would be willing to shell out a few more bucks to get the LN if it is at all better, but I think they probably cut about the same and that the LV is more ergonomic.

[Don C Peterson]

I have the LN Medium and I tend to use it just as Joel explained. I find it generally easier to control when pulling rather than pushing.

[Mike Cutler]

I have the LN Medium. I use it both ways, pushing and pulling. It's a great plane, but it's a handful. I think a person with smaller hands might have issues with it. I have long hands and fingers, and the LN felt better to me.

It really comes down to feel. Pick the one that fits your hands the best, regardless of the manufacturer.
All the LV planes I've seen at tradeshows are top shelf tools. You can't go wrong buying either an LV, or an LN. IMHO.

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/9139397/265920852.jpg

I much prefer the old family Stanleys I've been using for many decades, but they are way too expensive these days for the broken rejects the used tool dealers will try to palm off on you. There were millions made, but they are also somewhat fragile, so broken rejects aren't in short supply. The #92 is too small for general use. If you can buy a sound #93 with some blade life remaining after close personal inspection for under a hundred bucks, then you have a good value. Highland Hardware carries English-made #93's for $119.00, but I can't vouch for quality. With the chisel plane feature, for many of us the stubby #90's are a waste of money, because they are basically just a #93 with a shortened front.

I like them best because unlike the others, they push and pull equally well ergonomically, and fit into tight spots on boats the others simply don't, lacking needless wings, propellers, doodads and protrusions that tend to catch on things. I also adore the chisel plane feature, and use it routinely. The smaller ones are hand-me-downs, the large, #94 I bought as a project and am having Ron Hock make a replacement blade for ($75) while I do some silver brazing.

But I have had a chance to use both the L/V Medium and the L/N Medium, and I recommend the L/V in 0-1. It looks like Buck Rogers designed it, but it has a number of useful features the Preston clones like the L/N lack.

Now that I've used a number of them, in general, L/V concentrates on innovative, improved designs and makes a better mousetrap at better value. L/N makes designs that are beautiful and will sell, but are outdated in comparison, the planes often needlessly heavy, and A2 steel isn't the easiest choice for those of us who still hand hone on stones.

[Bob Smalser]

Very few people use the Preston.Record/Clifton/LN shoulder planes in the way intended - I'm convinced the instructions were long ago lost - which is why they seem uncomfortable. Grab them by the front with the crux of the thumb and forefinger resting where the lever clamp comes out of the body and the thumb and forefinger grasping the fingerholds in the back sides of the plane. Then pull the plane towards you. You get tons of control, and you can see what you are doing, which is the point of a shoulder plane. you don't need the power of pushing the plane - you need the control of guiding the plane - try it you will see.


Well-designed shoulder planes should be equally easy to use in both directions, because it's often a heckuva lot easier to turn the plane around than the workpiece. Even in cabinetmaking.

And I just looked, and your 3/4" Clifton goes for $65.00 more than the Lie Nielsen. That's an eye opener. Why? The value of the Pound Sterling? I assume it's better made than the Record was...but also the L/N?

[Randy Klein]

I've been considering the same thing. On the LV website (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&cat=1,41182,41192&p=49709), it says about the Bullnose Rabbet Plane: "For those who own no shoulder planes, this is probably the best first purchase." Although there is no explanation as to why that is, especially since everyone seems to love the medium.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Well-designed shoulder planes should be equally easy to use in both directions, because it's often a heckuva lot easier to turn the plane around than the workpiece. Even in cabinetmaking.

And I just looked, and your 3/4" Clifton goes for $65.00 more than the Lie Nielsen. That's an eye opener. Why? The value of the Pound Sterling? I assume it's better made than the Record was...but also the L/N?

A well designed shoulder plane should be able to trim shoulders and tenons precisely with a lot of control - everything else is secondary. Both directions are work fine - you turn the plane around (duh), adjustable mouths - pretty useless because a fine mouth is all you need. I'm not interested in a combo - rebate and shoulder plane - I've got rebate planes and they are designed for power not control. But in actual use comparing Norris, Preston, Record, and Stanley shoulder planes, a wide Norris blows everything away as a shoulder plane - the adjustments to a tenon are the easiest and most positive. Preston and Record being a very decent choice. Modern day LNs and Cliftons being descendants of a Preston and of course available. I happen to think the Clifton is prettier and the burlap pattern finger grips are easier to use, but the low dollar has forced price rises which are unfortunate. Stanley's are a very very poor cousin. The LV is a different animal entirely and is more of a rebate plane than a shoulder plane.

If you the plane pushing away from you, your eyeball will not be looking at the cutting edge and you will not have as much control a result. you want the cutting action always right under you. You also have more power and the cut is harder to control.

I don't think in boatbuilding there are many shoulders and your preference for the Stanleys suggests that you are using them more for rabbets than precises shoulders.

The point of my original post what to show how a Preston style shoulder plane should be used for proper control. As your preference for the Stanley's show, folks like all sorts of tools, which choices guided by Budget and actual application and the number of people who use shoulder planes just as shoulder planes like I do is pretty small.

[Maurice Metzger]

Ditto to what Bob says about used Stanley shoulder planes being good and overpriced.

Unfortunately the English-made 92 I purchased several years ago came pre-rusted, which is a giant pain when it's halfway under nickel plating.

In my experience a bullnose rabbet plane is the worst plane for cleaning up tenons - you don't get enough registration before the blade.

HTH,
Maurice

[Raney Nelson]

I've been considering the same thing. On the LV website (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&cat=1,41182,41192&p=49709), it says about the Bullnose Rabbet Plane: "For those who own no shoulder planes, this is probably the best first purchase." Although there is no explanation as to why that is, especially since everyone seems to love the medium.

I took that advice at face value, and bought the bullnose first. My best guess is that they say this because of the utility of combining chisel and bullnose functions, which for some is a good 'multi-task' plane.

However, being new to shoulder planes I found the bullnose really difficult to get good results with. I returned it for the medium which I find immensely more useful and easier to use, primarily due to the longer nose-registration which to me is absolutely critical to getting straight, smooth cuts.

I have since also purchased a LN large, and am also quite happy with this. I hadn't considered it before, but after Joel's comments I realize that I have developed a strong tendency to use it on a pull stroke - I still push with it when the situation warrants, but when the work doesn't care I default to pulling. Because it is larger, I also tend to use two hands (while the LV medium is quite comfortable one-handed) so large-to-medium is a tad bit apples-to-oranges, but perhaps this will still be helpful.

Overall, I am more than happy with both versions - I think that both the preston/Clifton/LN design and the definitely more space-age LV are quite capable of very precise end-grain shoulder trimming, which is 90% of what I use them for.

Short answer: either the LV or the LN (or clifton/preston if you find a good deal) will probably make you quite happy, but personally I'd skip the LV bullnose.

[Bob Smalser]

....adjustable mouths - pretty useless....

....I'm not interested in a combo - rebate and shoulder plane...

.....I don't think in boatbuilding there are many shoulders and your preference for the Stanleys suggests that you are using them more for rabbets than precises shoulders.



http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6791366/85653808.jpg

Not what I said. It's not the adjustable mouth. It's the chisel plane feature. Clifton also makes one that you give rave reviews. The Stanley is simpler, probably faster and just as accurate switching back and forth.

It's just about impossible to use any shoulder plane effectively as a rabbet plane, because they take too shallow a cut, adjustable mouth or no adjustable mouth. You'd be there for weeks. That was mostly Stanley hype. Clifton is guilty of it too, they just spell it different. These are rabbet planes:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/17020258/263582065.jpg

We agree shoulder planes are for precise, crossgrain work to fit joints. Boats, being wood fitted with basically the same joints as cabinets...after all, how many ways are there to fit one stick to another....have about the same amount of crossgrain work. I'm sure you have a book somewhere to confirm that.

And I'm still interested why the Clifton is 65 bucks better than the L/N. Quite an achievement for planes more akin to Record than Norris.

[Joel Moskowitz]

And I'm still interested why the Clifton is 65 bucks better than the L/N. Quite an achievement for planes more akin to Record than Norris.


As I said - the dollar has dropped tremendously, and also the Clifton is made of annealed iron which means if you drop it on concrete it won't crack and unlike ductile iron won't distort. But that means a very expensive, long annealing process and slow machining. It all adds up.

[Phil Clark]

In recent years I have been using my clifton shoulder plane with great satisfaction even though I am a stanley and LN user. I do a lot of mortis and tenon work on my Stickley Morris chairs for final fitting with it.

[Richard Niemiec]

I just spent a day or two agonizing over a large and medium shoulder plane purchase, talking to folks who had either or both the LN and LV versions, and found that the LN Large and the LV medium were the best combination, so I pulled the trigger on those two and am awaiting delivery. One thing about the LV medium is that its 11/16" wide rather than the full 3/4" and that's handy as sometimes with sheet goods you need a slightly smaller dado and the LV will fit to smooth out the bottoms; it also has different ergonomics which everyone mentioned. Somehow the ergonomics of the LV large were not as critical, as it is after all "large"er, so I went with the LN Large. These are fine distinctions, and I don't think anyone could go horribly wrong with either manufacturers' versions.

RN

[Bob Smalser]

As I said - the dollar has dropped tremendously, and also the Clifton is made of annealed iron which means if you drop it on concrete it won't crack and unlike ductile iron won't distort. But that means a very expensive, long annealing process and slow machining. It all adds up.

...a wide Norris blows everything away as a shoulder plane - the adjustments to a tenon are the easiest and most positive. Preston and Record being a very decent choice.

A well designed shoulder plane should be able to trim shoulders and tenons precisely with a lot of control - everything else is secondary.



Was the magical Norris made of annealed iron? That was your reference as to the ideal.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6583947/84781053.jpg


I can't emphasize enough to those looking to buy one, that shoulder planes have to work equally well in both directions, push and pull. This workpiece is only 60lbs, but flipping it around because your plane only works best one way like Joel says, isn't a speedy or efficient option. Nor is walking around to the other side of it.

And that's the main difference between the Stanley and so many others. It was made for commercial work where speed is of equal importance as accuracy. And if I often have a contrary opinion to teachers catering to hobbyists and fine-tool merchants, it's for similar reasons. Too expensive, too precious, too slow, too complicated, too much hype, and sometimes even pretentious.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Was the magical Norris made of annealed iron? That was your reference as to the ideal.


The Norris I use is of mild steel

[Bob Smalser]

The Norris I use is of mild steel

The infill smoother. The Norris catalog says their shoulder planes are made of malleable iron. Very similar to the ductile iron in the L/V I recommended. When you knock it off the scaffold, it bends rather than cracks and can be repaired.

http://www.handplane.com/Images/Catalogs/Norris-1914-Catalog/Norris1914Catalog8-Big.jpg

[Joel Moskowitz]

The infill. The Norris catalog says their shoulder planes are made of malleable iron. Very similar to the ductile iron in the L/V I recommended. When you knock it off the scaffold, it bends rather than cracks and can be repaired.



Bob -
look at the entire catalog next time - the workhorse Norris shoulder plane (and by far the most common) is the #7 - dovetailed steel which is what I am talking about. The cast models of Norris are prettier but they have a tendency to not be flat - so while I own a bunch of those too I never use them.

[Derek Cohen]

I've sort of lost track of what the difference of opinion is here ...

I imagined that a shoulder plane was designed to shave shoulders... end grain. So I want to know which plane can make this process easier. (As an aside, this process does not call for a fine mouth since end grain does not tear out, but it is easier to set up a plane with a fine mouth to take a fine shaving).

Their shape does not suit planing tenon faces since they lack sufficient registration in this orientation. However, I admit to using a wide shoulder plane at times here at times since I get too lazy to look for another, more suitable plane (such as a #140).

I own a few shoulder planes and can offer a limited amount of insight here (think of this as a hobbiests' view verses that of the pros, such as Bob and Joel). One point I want to emphasize is that all work well and will do the job. Just that some do this better.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Shoulder%20planes/2Fourshoulderplanes.jpg

The Stanley #9X planes work satisfactorally, and if one did not have any other, or have used others, these would be fine. If I could have just one of the Stanleys, it would be the #93. This is a good compromise in size - decent enough registration and still small enough to be used in one hand.

But by-and-large the Stanleys are the poor relations these days, especially the #92, which has a very small footprint in comparison to the LV Medium and the HNT Gordon 3/4", as seen below. By comparison, they are clumsy to set up and relatively uncomfortable to hold (see my review of the Veritas Medium for details: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/LVShoulder/index.asp)

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Shoulder%20planes/5aFootprints.jpg

The Veritas Medium is a plane with which I continue to have a love-hate relationship. I hate its looks (it appears so fiddy) but I love its performance. It is in a class of its own with regard ease of set up. It is a plane I return to time-and-again because it works so well. I am not sure if I would say that "comfortable" is the correct term to describe this plane - probably "secure" is more appropriate. It is easy to hold and it feels solid in the hand.

The shoulder plane that defies logic is the HNT Gordon. With its high cutting angle (60 degrees), it should not shave end grain at all, nevermind do so with the ease of a low angle plane. This is a very comfortable plane, with sweet looks and charm (that only a hobbiest with appreciate), but all will agree that it is great value-for-money.

All said and done, if I were to have just one shoulder plane, it would be my 1-1/4" wide infill Norris-type (that I renovated with bling).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/Shoulder%20planes/IMG_2378a.jpg

I like the heft, which makes it easy to cut hardwood. It is not the simplest to set up - it lacks the repeatability of the Veritas - but its width makes it capable of cutting tenons at a pinch. Perhaps I am just a sucker for the traditional, but this one - like the HNT Gordon - brings a smile to my face when I use it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brad Kimbrell]

I am new to this Neander' way, but really am enjoying building the Masters Workbench by Lon Schleining. Took the course at Marc Adams and now am fitting everything together.

I have had the LN for about a year and have just begin using it to fine tune the tenons and shoulders that I cut with my Unisaw and X-cut sled. Now I'm sorry that I left so much "meat" on those tenons...took me three evenings to adjust the 1/16" from each side on 12 tenons!

The adjustment screw seems to constantly stab my palm...I've worn a blister in my palm and where my fingers attach to my hand as well. The plane cuts very nicely, but I must be doing something wrong!

Also, I had to shim some stock back on one of the tenons as I got it out of square somehow...bad technique I'm sure! :confused:

Any good resources to learn how to properly use this great tool? It cuts end grain like I've never seen since I honed the blade on my Tormek. Seems like it can really be a great asset...maybe as much or more than my LN Adj Mouth block plane.

Thanks in advance for any advice...sorry for the long post.

[Pam Niedermayer]

... have had the LN for about a year...The adjustment screw seems to constantly stab my palm...I've worn a blister in my palm and where my fingers attach to my hand as well. The plane cuts very nicely, but I must be doing something wrong! ...

Have you checked out the Care & Feeding instructions on LN's site (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1251 )? Also, I've heard lots of guys saying they have problems handling the big LN; but I've had none, and certainly don't have the biggest hands around. I do use two hands to operate it.

Pam

[Mike Cutler]

Brad.

You're right, that's a lot of meat to remove. 1/16th is .0625", if you had to remove this much from both sides of all the tenons, that is a lot of material to remove. Personally, I would get the tenon much closer to the required size, and then start tuning with the shoulder plane.

Garret Hack has a book out, "the Handplane book", that is an excellent reference for the use of most handplanes, and covers tuning, refitting, sharpening, technique, etc.

Thomas Lie- Nielsen has a book on sharpening handtools available from Taunton Press. Excellent reference on handtool sharpening technique.

Both of these books are a great resource to have around.

[Andrew Homan]

Also, I've heard lots of guys saying they have problems handling the big LN; but I've had none, and certainly don't have the biggest hands around. I do use two hands to operate it.


Pam,
I'm with you on this -- no discomfort pushing or pulling this plane.
-Andy

[John Strait]

Pam,
I'm with you on this -- no discomfort pushing or pulling this plane.
-Andy

Pam and Andrew,
Do you hold the large LN by top of the bronze lever cap or with your hand under it? Just curious which is the preferred method.

Thanks,
John

[Pam Niedermayer]

On top with the other hand on top of the nose.

Pam