Jointer Plane leaving tiniest of ridge. Problem?

[Randy Klein]

I set up my new LV BU Jointer plane today. Uh-oh, stealth gloat. Um, pictures? Forthcoming.

Following Chris Schwarz' teaching, I clipped the ends of the iron with a file, honed the iron with a camber that falls off about 6 thou, and projected the iron such that the corner disappears.

Yet when I tried out my toy, urr tool, there was a tiny ridge (about 1-2 thou) left over that ran down just about where the iron's center was. I pulled the blade out, after inspecting other things, and noticed the tiniest nick in the center.

So my question is: does this really matter in the long run? Or will my LV BU Smoother plane (whoops, another stealth gloat. Fine, and I got the LV BU Jack and LV LA Block as well. There, I confessed.) take off this little ridge upon final smoothing?

EDIT:
I believe this should satisfy the picture req't for a plane gloat, shavings et al.
67870

[Steven Wilson]

For face jointing prior to thicknessing I wouldn't worry about it (yes you shour grind the nick out sometime). For edge jointing you shouldn't need to go over the edge again with another plane, so you might as well fix your jointer.

[Randy Klein]

I think I know how that nick got there. I was initially using a x-coarse diamond stone to grind the camber. It created a HUGE burr. The only way I've read to remove the burr is to rub the plane's back on the 8000 grit waterstone. But this burr was resisting me. I did finally manage to get de-burr it, but this nick must have formed in the process.

Which begs the question: Is there another way to remove a huge burr like that (besides not letting it form so big in the first place)? This thing was so large I felt like I could grab it with needle nose pliers...

Now that the camber is shaped, I shouldn't have to use the diamond stone and can start with the 1000 grit. So hopefully, I won't have this happen again.

[Randy Klein]

For face jointing prior to thicknessing I wouldn't worry about it (yes you shour grind the nick out sometime). For edge jointing you shouldn't need to go over the edge again with another plane, so you might as well fix your jointer.

Good, that's what I was thinking. For edge jointing, I have another iron set up with no camber, so this shouldn't affect it.

[Wilbur Pan]

Now that the camber is shaped, I shouldn't have to use the diamond stone and can start with the 1000 grit. So hopefully, I won't have this happen again.
I think you hit the nail right on the head. You probably won't have to worry about this any more.

[David Weaver]

Which begs the question: Is there another way to remove a huge burr like that (besides not letting it form so big in the first place)? This thing was so large I felt like I could grab it with needle nose pliers...

Not that you should have to worry about it again, but running it off with an 800 stone would be something you could do - or sandpaper on float glass - something of that sort - but the key is a finer stone, but not as fine as 8000 - which you found doesn't wear much off fast.

'fraid that a wire edge that looks rivals "baling wire" as yours sounds is just too big to even talk about stropping.

[Derek Cohen]

A2 steel seems to make wire edges that are a lot tougher than those from HC or O1 steel.

Wire edges generally diminish in size as you go up in the grit ratings. So you may havea large wireedge after a 800 grit waterstone. Just leave it and progress to the next grit, say 1200 grit. The wire edge will become smaller ... and by the time you get to your polishing stone it should be tiny. Then may just use a leather strop to remove it. If it is still there, then you probably have not honed enough with the inbetween grits.

An alternative is to use David Charlesworth's micro backbevel (via the "Ruler Trick"). I used to do this but no longer. It works fine but I prefer to strop my edges between honings, and this is more difficult to do freehand with a micro backbevel. If this is not a issue for you, then use the RT - it will do a fine job.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Randy Klein]

Wire edges generally diminish in size as you go up in the grit ratings. So you may havea large wireedge after a 800 grit waterstone. Just leave it and progress to the next grit, say 1200 grit. The wire edge will become smaller ... and by the time you get to your polishing stone it should be tiny. Then may just use a leather strop to remove it. If it is still there, then you probably have not honed enough with the inbetween grits.

Derek, what happens to the previous burr? Does it just fall off some time while honing on the next higher grit?

I assumed it would just keep accumulating and growing, which is why I was deburring after each grit. It sounds like I was doing an unnecessary step.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, what happens to the previous burr? Does it just fall off some time while honing on the next higher grit?

I assumed it would just keep accumulating and growing, which is why I was deburring after each grit. It sounds like I was doing an unnecessary step.

Randy, when you continue honing (to higher waterstones/lower microns) the wire edge gets smaller since you are honing the edge smoother (= smaller particles).

Try it and let us know.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Smalser]

I set up my new LV BU...

Following Chris Schwarz' teaching, I clipped the ends of the iron with a file, honed the iron with a camber that falls off about 6 thou, and projected the iron such that the corner disappears.



Why would I want a camber and rounded corners in a jointer?

You using it as a scrub plane?

The ridge you are leaving is sufficiently large to interfere with glueups in certain woods. Remove the nick in the blade.

[Randy Klein]

Why could I want a camber and rounded corners in a jointer?

You using it as a scrub plane?

Nope, I'm not using it as a scrub plane.

The camber is very slight and hardly noticeable unless you hold it up against a straight edge. Both David Charlesworth and Chris Schwarz recommend it in their videos.

I think the theory is a slight camber is easier to tweak the flatness and squareness of your work piece and won't leave any ridges. Unlike a straight honed iron which would need to be setup dead on perfect or it can leave plane tracks (since 1 corner would be slightly deeper set than the other).

Seriously though, I'm no expert, but those videos explain it really well and I recommend them to anyone.

[Bob Smalser]

Nope, I'm not using it as a scrub plane.

The camber is very slight and hardly noticeable unless you hold it up against a straight edge. Both David Charlesworth and Chris Schwarz recommend it in their videos.

I think the theory is a slight camber is easier to tweak the flatness and squareness of your work piece and won't leave any ridges. Unlike a straight honed iron which would need to be setup dead on perfect or it can leave plane tracks (since 1 corner would be slightly deeper set than the other).

Seriously though, I'm no expert, but those videos explain it really well and I recommend them to anyone.

Cambers are for jack planes. Lesser ones in smoothers maybe. Nobody I ever saw cambered a jointer. Edge joints you want perfectly flat, not concave. Moreover, I can't think of a single plane in my shop except the scrub where I've put a camber in the edge. Rounded corners yes, but cambers no. Too time consuming to sharpen for nothing gained.

BTW, since most here still use jigs to sharpen, how do they teach cambering an edge using a jig?

I think somebody's got you removing steel from your expensive new planes needlessly, and making this too complicated. The nick will cost even more steel because it has to come out.

[Randy Klein]

Cambers are for jack planes. Lesser ones in smoothers maybe. Nobody I ever saw cambered a jointer. Edge joints you want perfectly flat, not concave. Moreover, I can't think of a single plane in my shop except the scrub where I've put a camber in the edge. Rounded corners yes, but cambers no. Too time consuming to sharpen for nothing gained.

BTW, since most here still use jigs to sharpen, how do they teach cambering an edge using a jig?

I think somebody's got you removing steel from your expensive new planes needlessly, and making this too complicated. The nick will cost even more steel because it has to come out.

Bob, I have a different iron with no camber for edge jointing. That's what I like about the BU design of planes, easy to swap an iron for a different application. But David Charlesworth even recommends a camber for edge jointing as well. If you watch his video, you can see how precisely you can square an edge with a cambered iron. I, on the other hand, have the optional fence for the jointer plane for edge jointing. So, with that accessory, I feel I don't need a cambered iron for edge jointing, despite David's advice.

I do also have a camber in my smoother, it's less pronounced than the jointers. Remember, the camber is at most 6 thousandths of an inch. This is very, very slight.

As for the jig, the Veritas MK II Honing guide has an optional cambered roller that easily allows you to hone the camber. I tried it for the first time last night, and I thought it was relatively painless. With more practice, I'm sure it will become nothing.

Again, I'm only professing those techniques that I have gained from David's and Chris' videos and in no way am I trying to convince anyone that is a superior technique. I hope it's not coming across that way. I like the way they explained it, and I am trying it out. That's all.

And if you want to know which videos I'm referring to:
Chris Schwarz - "Making furniture with Hand Planes" and "Coarse, Medium, and Fine"
David Charlesworth - His 3 part series - "Hand Tool Techniques Part 1", "Hand Tool Techniques Part 2", and "Precision Shooting Simplified"

All of these are available at Woodcraft and Lie-Nielsen. They are actually produced by Lie-Nielsen. So if you want to see someone recommend and defend a cambered iron in the jointer, I would recommend these videos.

[Bob Smalser]

What works for them or me isn't necessarily what you should be doing now.

As I said, for those still sharpening with jigs, cambers are too hard to do well. And I don't use them anymore anyway because I find in a well-tuned plane, flat in all the right places, I simply don't need them except for rough work. They are just an added complication. Get the iron sharp, ease the corners using a stone instead of a file, and take advice as guidance, not gospel.

[greg Forster]

A jointer should have a blade "dead straight". There should be no concern of the blade's corners digging in, because both blade edges should be well off the board ( 3/4" -1" board thickness vs 2 1/2" blade width) Jointers are not used to flatten board faces.

[Bob Smalser]

A jointer should have a blade "dead straight". There should be no concern of the blade's corners digging in, because both blade edges should be well off the board ( 3/4" -1" board thickness vs 2 1/2" blade width) Jointers are not used to flatten board faces.


Unless you're jointing the edge of a 4X12 timber.

Otherwise I agree, and it's a good example of my point. I ease jointer edges because I do occasionally plane large timbers with them. You don't, and don't need to.

[Randy Klein]

Jointers are not used to flatten board faces.

Greg, what is used to flatten then?

I use a powered jointer and planer to thickness my lumber. However, coming off the plane, there are still minute imperfections (snipe, tracks, ridges, etc.). I use my jointer plane to remove these imperfections and make the board even more flat. For this, I use the cambered iron I described above.

I also use my jointer for edge jointing. But I use a different iron that has no camber.

[Randy Klein]

What works for them or me isn't necessarily what you should be doing now.

As I said, for those still sharpening with jigs, cambers are too hard to do well. And I don't use them anymore anyway because I find in a well-tuned plane, flat in all the right places, I simply don't need them except for rough work. They are just an added complication. Get the iron sharp, ease the corners using a stone instead of a file, and take advice as guidance, not gospel.

Different ways to skin a cat...

However, I don't think using the jig to introduce and then hone the camber was difficult at all. In fact, Lee Valley has just about the best return policy on the planet. You should order their Mk II honing guide and cambered roller and try it out. If you don't like it, return it within 90 days and you get a full refund (shipping included). There's nothing to lose. But I think you'll fine that it is very easy to use.

As for taking their advice as guidance, that's what I'm doing. I'm trying out their techniques to see if they work for me and changing those that don't (like the cambered iron for edge jointing). So far, I'm satisfied with my results.

But to each, his own.

[Wilbur Pan]

Jointers are not used to flatten board faces.
Why not? In the "Coarse, Medium, & Fine" video a board face is flattened first using a jack plane, then a jointer plane, then finally a smoothing plane, all with cambered edges that decreased in the amount of camber as you moved through each plane.

The use of a tool for one purpose does not preclude the use of that same tool with modifications for another purpose.

[Bob Smalser]

So far, I'm satisfied with my results.

But to each, his own.

I'm sorry I made a suggestion from a different professional point of view. Your question sounded like you lacked some experience and wanted help. No worries, it won't happen again.

[Randy Klein]

I'm sorry I made a suggestion from a different point of view. Your question sounded like you lacked some experience. No worries, it won't happen again.

Bob, my comments were not meant in any derogatory manner. I do lack experience and was only regurgitating, for discussion purposes, that which I have learned from those videos. Nothing more.

I appreciate your comments and am glad there are different points of views out there.

[Norb Schmidt]

Hi - I'm new to the Board and to handtools in general, but I certanly appreciate all the information in the archives. Not to hijack the thread, but the discussion with respect to cambering and not cambering a jointer plane is germaine to my newly purchased LN#8 (no gloat intended)

It is my first jointer plane and having read/watched several hand tool users: Charlesworth, Cosman, Cohen, Schwarz, Smalser, etc.... there are many uses for this great tool.

Is it fair to say that if you are using your jointer plane as both a "pre-smoother" and as a jointer you should round over or camber the blade? Likewise, if you are only using the jointer plane to "joint" board edges flat your cutter should be dead flat?

I personally like the jointer plane for both shooting edges straight, and flattening boards, and for that reason I very subtly have rounded the edges. I still get some track marks, as my "rounding/cambering" didn't take too much off (~.003ish) and I'm still learning how to set up the plane. But - its still like a week old and I drive a desk for living - it has gotten very little use. I do like its heft and its ability to flatten anything, but I would like to get more input on how to set it up.

Thanks to all who post and make woodworking so much easier to novices like me.

[Randy Klein]

Is it fair to say that if you are using your jointer plane as both a "pre-smoother" and as a jointer you should round over or camber the blade? Likewise, if you are only using the jointer plane to "joint" board edges flat your cutter should be dead flat?

but I would like to get more input on how to set it up.

Norb, as for you camber question, there are differing schools of thought, 2 represented in this thread. Neither more right than the other, they both work.

The one I'm trying is the method that Chris Schwarz has put forward in his videos, namely the "Making Furniture with Hand Planes" and "Coarse, Medium, and Fine". I recommend these two videos as to how set up and use a jointer/smoother planes to flatten/smooth your workpiece.

As for edge jointing, David even uses a camber for this, where Chris does not. If you watch his video, you can see why it works for him.

[greg Forster]

mea culpa... sometimes my fingers move faster than my brain. My interest in 18th c dictates "my" plane nomeclature. In that period, bench planes were classified ( most commonly) as smoother, fore(jack) @14-16", trying/long @20-26", and jointer @28-33". My two wooden jointers are an 18thc -style, 33" (2 1/4 iron), light and comfortable to joint with(but hates changes in the weather) and a mid 19thc 30" D.R. Barton (2 5/8 iron) which yearns to be a cooper's plane - too d--n heavy.

But, nowadays, planes 22" and above are classified as jointers. i was curious about this name change , so I went to the book shelf.

Stanley classified both their steel and transitional planes as jack:11.5-15", fore:18-20", jointer:22-30".

A Sheffield(England) Tool List from 1870 had wooden planes as jack: 17", trying:22-24" long trying:26" and jointer trying planes:28-30"

H.Chapin and Sons-1865 (pine Meadow, Conn) list wooden planes as jack, fore:21,22", jointer:26,28,30
In 1878, Chapin lists Foss Patent Adjustable Iron Planes - jack:14", fore:18"
and jointer:22,24,26"

The 1878 price list for the Metallic Plane Co (Auburn, NY) list #4 jack@15" and #5 jointer @ 21".

A 22" jointer is just the size to finish plane a table top, with a little touch up of a smoother/ scraper. A 30-33" jointer is just too awkward for that task in most cases.

[Randy Klein]

Greg,

I read your post and thought you came out of left field with that historical breakdown and almost replied with a "Huh?" But I went back up and re-read your earlier post and I now understand - fingers and brains moving at different speeds...Got it.

[Randy Klein]

I re-honed the jointer's blade and ran it through some pieces. The ridges are gone :).

I also grinded (or is it ground :confused:, that sounds funny) and honed my smoother iron, with a less pronounced camber of course. Set that up and tested it, it was sweet :cool:.

Oh yeah, Derek. I tried your suggestion of just moving on to the next higher grit without deburring. It worked beatifully, the burr was easily removed on the 8000 stone. Thank you.:D

And yes, I think I just discovered all those smiley faces on the right...:o

[Wilbur Pan]

One last thing to keep in mind when talking about whether a cambered jointer plane blade can make a truly "flat" surface: the amount of camber we're talking about is usually on the order of 0.006", according to Christopher Schwarz in the "Coarse, Medium, & Fine" DVD. That's just over 1/256 inches, which should be well within the tolerance that most woodworking operations need.

In fact, if you buy into the idea of a sprung joint when doing edge gluing, the gap put into the joint by this technique will be greater than the out-of-flatness that a 0.006" cambered edge creates.

[Bob Opsitos]

Having just watched the Charlesworth 2nd video on handplaning, using cambered irons, one should be clear on what Charleworth describes as flat.

His idea of flat, is having a .002 concavity along the and the concavity across the edge equal the camber of the iron. His reasoning appears to be that concave is far better than convex, or as David put it in the video, "I can do nothing with a bump". So rather than risk any convexity and the wobbliness that can come from it, and claming an inability to hold the plane at some level position to straighten edges, he makes the edges (and faces and ends) slightly concave.

It's an interesting concept, one worth experimenting with.

Bob

[Derek Cohen]

So rather than risk any convexity and the wobbliness that can come from it, and claming an inability to hold the plane at some level position to straighten edges, he makes the edges (and faces and ends) slightly concave.

Bob

While that is true for joining boards on edge longetudinally, that is not my understanding of the reason that DC (the other DC!) cambers his jointer iron. In a nutshell, this is done to level out an edge that is angled. One can just use the part of the radius that is needed - use more camber (outside of iron) to take off more timber and less camber (centre of iron) when you are ready to hone "flat".

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Luter]

Call me a newbie, but I've been using the lateral adjustment lever to accomplish the same thing. Case in point:

When I was at the Sindelar open house a few weeks ago, I picked up a nice #7 at the tailgate sale. Nothing really special mind you, but a nice user in good shape. I cleaned it up when I got home and spent a while putting the correct edge on the iron. When complete it was absolutely straight and without any camber. So I clamp a maple board in the vice and proceed to produce a dead straight edge that's perfect for glueing........to another board with an edge about 85 degrees to the face. I'm without a fence to assist in getting me square, so I just adjusted the lateral lever to take a heavier cut on the high side and used the existing edge for registration. A few swipes later I backed off a bit, then some more, and in no time I was square to the face. I guess I thought that's what the lever was for :o.