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Belinda Barfield
07-11-2007, 3:55 PM
Don't want to beat the dead horse any more, but found this site to be quite interesting - in a strange sort of way.:D As a friend said to me "Could it really hurt?" Any thoughts?

http://www.firethegrid.com/eng/eng-home-fr.htm

Greg Peterson
07-11-2007, 5:02 PM
Interesting site. Started reading a little of it, and now I find I'm reading more of it.

I'm not qualified to say whether if global climate change is occurring or not. I do think that at we are indeed the luckiest people in human history. Even the poorest among us live like royalty compared to most of the rest of the world.

Just as wealth can not be created, but merely transferred, there is a finite limit to natural resources and to the planets ability to absorb pollution.

Some will say the planet is big enough to sustain the current global population with no problem. Again, I'm not qualified to dispute any such claims. But at no time in earths history has this many people been alive at one time. We are in uncharted waters, from a human population perspective. And while it may be easy for us to look out our own window and see ample food, water, shelter and the various amenities that provide a standard of living second to none, the view from many windows would be very unfamiliar to many Americans.

I'd venture that not many of our neighbors would rather live somewhere else in the world.

Gary Keedwell
07-11-2007, 6:01 PM
Interesting site but I'm very skeptical about a few points. There was a time in the 60's that small farms were disappearing and we were going to starve. Also, we were close to running out of oil for vehicles and to heat our homes. It was bleak, and to top it off, we were told that we were in the beginning of an ice age and it was going to get colder every year. Unemployment was rampant and house mortgages were around 20 percent.
Now jump 40 years later..... Yes most of the small farms are gone but we now have the technology to not only feed ourselves, but to export millions of bushels of food around the world. And guess what? All those winter coats I bought in anticipation of freezing weather.....are in storage.
Sure there is still alot of bad things happening on this planet, but educating and showing people how to live in democracy can sure cure alot of ills.
Gary K.

Pat Germain
07-11-2007, 11:21 PM
No offense, Belinda, but the author of that web site uses a lot of flawed arguments. Modern famines occur not because of a lack of food, but because of corrupt and inept governments (ie Kim Jong Il) and evil warlords. Also, I see nuclear power as a partial solution to energy problems, not a problem in itself.

Contrary to media hype, the planet is not "overpopulated" with humans. There's plenty of food, water, and everything else people need to live dignified lives. So why are people starving and living in squalor? Again, it's corrupt and inept governments, evil warlords, ignorance, and a few other issues.

Gary made some valid points. In my 42 years on this planet, I've been hearing predictions of doom and gloom since I was old enough to understand TV news. I soon learned "activists" get media attention by doing this, so that's what they do. It's become an art form and an industry.

Millions of tons of food goes uneaten and is wasted every year. Sometimes the food rots very close to where people are starving because governments and warlords keep it from being distributed.

I speak not just as an armchair analyst here. I've been fortunate to have travelled much of the world. I have visited four continents, to include Africa and South America. I've seen the problems first hand. Overpopluation and a lack of natural resources are not the real problems. To be real, industrial pollution is a genuine problem, but that goes back to corrupt and inept governments.

Obviously, the US isn't free from such problems. It's a well known fact that Brazil could produce enough ethanol to significantly offset petroleum consumption in the US. They are ready to do it. They'd love to sell us ethanol. Unfortunately, our government prevents it from happening through tarrifs and other policies. One could argue the objective is "protect" American producers of ethanol. Indeed, we're also protecting ourselves out of solutions to our problems.

Just my take. :)

Tyler Howell
07-11-2007, 11:28 PM
Interesting site. Started reading a little of it, and now I find I'm reading more of it.

I'm not qualified to say whether if global climate change is occurring or not. I do think that at we are indeed the luckiest people in human history. Even the poorest among us live like royalty compared to most of the rest of the world.

Just as wealth can not be created, but merely transferred, there is a finite limit to natural resources and to the planets ability to absorb pollution.

Some will say the planet is big enough to sustain the current global population with no problem. Again, I'm not qualified to dispute any such claims. But at no time in earths history has this many people been alive at one time. We are in uncharted waters, from a human population perspective. And while it may be easy for us to look out our own window and see ample food, water, shelter and the various amenities that provide a standard of living second to none, the view from many windows would be very unfamiliar to many Americans.

I'd venture that not many of our neighbors would rather live somewhere else in the world.
Well said Greg Dito

Belinda Barfield
07-12-2007, 7:43 AM
Thanks for the replies guys. I just thought the author's solution to the "problem" was a rather unique one.


No offense, Belinda . . .:)

None taken Pat. I don't have a position on either side of this author's narrative, so it would be hard to be offended. :)

As I said above, the proposed solution was what interested me. All of us humans sending out mental energy at one time . . . wonder it that would disrupt satellite communications worldwide, maybe even contact some aliens?:p ;)

Pat Germain
07-12-2007, 10:13 AM
Just as wealth can not be created, but merely transferred, ...

I would actually argue that point, Greg. Wealth is indeed created. For example, when Bill Gates became the richest man in the world, he didn't do so by taking from other people and making them more poor. His company, Microsoft, created thousands of jobs and pioneered an entire industry. Because of Microsoft, there is more money in the world and more people have that money.

I know many think Microsoft and Gates are evil and they have valid reasons. However, love them or hate them, Microsoft has made the world's economy larger and has indeed created wealth. Bill and his wife, Melinda, have also given much of their wealth to the poor and have made the lives of many people much better through clean water programs, for example.

Joe Pelonio
07-12-2007, 10:23 AM
I would actually argue that point, Greg. Wealth is indeed created. For example, when Bill Gates became the richest man in the world, he didn't do so by taking from other people and making them more poor. His company, Microsoft, created thousands of jobs and pioneered an entire industry. Because of Microsoft, there is more money in the world and more people have that money.


Good point. I curse Microsoft every time I have to drive on SR520 in Redmond, and whenever I get the dreaded blue screen of death or other error messages on my computers.

The fact is though, the employees there are the people buying the products and services that keep my sign customers needing me, they are the reason for a lot of other high-tech jobs in the area, to be close to them, and they are my neighbors that keep my home value high.

Greg Peterson
07-12-2007, 11:32 AM
Bill Gates is an excellent example. He generated wealth by the transfer of money from your pocket, my pocket and many other persons pockets.

When someone gets rich, they do so by providing a product or service that fills a demand. More dollars and euro's are not created, they are accumulated by those that are able to supply a market demand.

Pat Germain
07-12-2007, 11:48 AM
Bill Gates is an excellent example. He generated wealth by the transfer of money from your pocket, my pocket and many other persons pockets.

When someone gets rich, they do so by providing a product or service that fills a demand. More dollars and euro's are not created, they are accumulated by those that are able to supply a market demand.

No, not really, Greg. Dollars and Euros are printed and circulated based on the size of the economy. The amount of currency in circulation is carefully monitored and controlled to keep it from being "watered down" or overly valued. This issue, among other things, is what eventually lead to the implosion of the Soviet Union. They just kept printing more money and their economy collapsed.

When the size of the economy increases, more dollars and euros are put into circulation. Thus, wealth really is created. This is a fact. It's not my opinion.

Many natural resources are indeed finite, but the economy is not. Like it or not, the more people like Bill Gates are in the world, the better off the world is. This goes for Steve Jobs and John Lassiter as well. Al Gore isn't creating jobs and incomes for tens of thousands of people the world over. Bill Gates is. Angelina Jolie isn't bringing clean drinking water and controlling malaria for tens of thousands of people. Bill Gates is.

Contrary to popular activism, rich people do not get rich by making other people poor. In reality, one rich person does more for the economy than a hundred schmoes like me. I know it's currently popular to bash the rich and corporations for creating the world's evils. While many individual corporations and their executives are guilty of crimes and evils, corporations as a whole have brought us almost everything we enjoy in modern society.

By the way, I personally don't like Bill Gates or the Windows operating system. I'm a Unix guy. However, I have to acknowledge the reality of what Microsoft has done for the global economy. I use this as an example because it's a company and a product most people are familiar with.