Now this is the way to fight crime..........

[Mark Rios]

.....just run 'em over. Way to go to the Canadian police!

http://www.fugly.com/videos/7500/Toronto_police_run_over_guy_carrying_knife.html

[Greg Crawford]

That's great! Of course, here in Texas he could very well have been shot. I have a friend that's on the Houston PD, and he had a suspect try to run him over. He shot him. He saved his own life plus 2 or 3 other officers. The criminal lived to face trial.

[Per Swenson]

Ok ,I agree in Texas he would a been shot.

Once. Maybe twice.

'Round here, in this blue Nor'east corridor......

Suspect would a been perforated.

Quick reload and perforate again.

Good for the Canadians.

Per

[Gary Herrmann]

That guy had to be altered in some way. One guy with a knife against 6 or 8 cops and at least one cop car.

If had been me, I may have left him pinned between the parking meter and the car for awhile.

Well done Canadians.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

OK I've had enough now.

What gives with some people cRaZy? Drunk? Stupid? All six? It's unlikely it was tough guy syndrome.

I mean he did have a knife at a gun fight.

[Joe Chritz]

Meth, PCP, x, even high levels of alcohol.

I have had people get hit with a steel baton at full power and not even flinch when hoped up on any of the above.

Could have also been a suicide by cop attempt. Maybe I should watch the video. :rolleyes:

Joe

[Al Willits]

All for the police shooting these morons, there's no reason they should put their live in any more danger than they are already in.

Just read this morning where a Chinese offical was executed for taking bribes, now that's the way to cut crime.

If that happened here, with in 2 weeks at least half the gov't would be shot....

Al.....who thinks that wouldn't be all bad....:D

[John Schreiber]

Looks to me like an attempt at suicide by cop, perfect application for a Taser.

I especially like the cops checking for damage to the car afterwards.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Well, I think the cops got it wrong.

Let's say the guy was on drugs, mentally retarded, drunk... whatever. He could have ended up under the car, then into a wheel chair for life.

I'd have no problem using a car as a weapon if he was taking shots with a gun... but a knife?

I know an EMT that responded to a call to a home for the handicapped. A man with Downs Syndrome clobbered him with a round-house right HARD! It took three large cops to restrain him in the front yard. If he had a kitchen knife... I don't think anyone would say it'd be OK to try to run him over - twice.

We don't know the circumstances in the video.

[Al Willits]

"""""""
I'd have no problem using a car as a weapon if he was taking shots with a gun... but a knife?
""""""""

Evidently in your world a knife can do no damage, much less kill.
So your saying because this loony is breaking the law with a dangerous weapon the cops should just try and grab him???

Al

[Joe Chritz]

Well, I think the cops got it wrong.

Let's say the guy was on drugs, mentally retarded, drunk... whatever. He could have ended up under the car, then into a wheel chair for life.

I'd have no problem using a car as a weapon if he was taking shots with a gun... but a knife?


Tell that to my left hand! I am assuming you have never had to face someone like that armed? If you have then my apologies and to each his own. If not try it and get back to me.

Taser may have worked and would have been worth a shot. In that exact video, distances are kinda hard to judge, I see two officers that should have shot him and broke safe procedures for not doing so. The reason why are long, some are good, some aren't. Hazard is part of the job description, but how far into hazard should they go for some bonehead.

That video is old, before tasers were even around if I recall correctly. Definitely before they were mainstream in many areas.

Several of the officers put themselves at more risk for this moron and the result was saving his life. FWIW they would have been judged the same for using the car as such as shooting him. A weapon inclined to cause death or great bodily harm. If they were justified in using the car they were justified in shooting him. At least here in the states, that is fact.

Joe

I know an EMT that responded to a call to a home for the handicapped. A man with Downs Syndrome clobbered him with a round-house right HARD! It took three large cops to restrain him in the front yard. If he had a kitchen knife... I don't think anyone would say it'd be OK to try to run him over - twice.

We don't know the circumstances in the video.

A mentally challenged person in a wheel chair can't cover 20+ feet and stick me before I can draw and fire. 10+ if I have a gun out already. There are lots of options available that wouldn't be with someone motoring on two feet. Apples and oranges.

Joe

[Randal Stevenson]

A person armed with a knife can cover 21' and stick you with it. The cops were a lot closer then that (well within shooting rights). (edit: I should add, IF THEY had a clear line of sight).

IF he would have been paralyzed, the city and police would have both been sued, and most likely lost (never can guess a jury). The cops would have been admonished, for NOT shooting him. (endangering their and their fellow officers life) It's cheaper to kill someone, than to maim them.
Hard to second guess (clip doesn't show what happened before, what the call was, etc).
In my view, they showed way more restraint, then what they are trained to, and they may have gotten in trouble for it.

[Mitchell Andrus]

They didn't show the police attempting: mace, tear gas, shotgun bean-bags, bird-shot at the legs, fire hose, tazer, or plain old time to talk this nut case out of his tree.

The video shows deadly force in use against a man with a knife. If I did that to a noisy dog bearing his teeth, I'd be in deep doo-doo. The cops did it to a person in trouble - twice.

If he was taking shots at people 10 to 150 feet away, run him over to save a life or two, that makes sense. Run him over to knock a knife out of his hand???? Not so OK.

We don't know the whole story...

[Jason Roehl]

Some of you are forgetting that this took place in Toronto...different country, different police RoE. I know some cops, and have heard too many stories of Tasers not working due to drugs in the perp's system. Not that it shouldn't have been tried. I don't think the car is necessarily a bad idea...for one, he's not likely to end up under it...those Crown Vics are pretty low to the ground. Two, it definitely puts a layer of protection between the cop and the perp with the knife. I've cut the throat of hogs in their death throes...it's a risky maneuver to do with out the knife ending up in your own meat somewhere. I'm all for rights and such, but when you're brandishing a weapon of any kind, rights go out the window in my book.

[Ben Grunow]

IF you drop the knife, they stop the car, mace, tasers, gunpoint.... Its up to you if you want to get one or all.

All that said, this guy was nuts.

Ever see the video where they (4 swat guys) get the guy with the sword using an extension ladder to pin him against a store front? Worked pretty well and no dent in car or knife in cop.

[Joe Chritz]

Its like I am back on general discussion in a couple other boards.

You now see the problem with edited video.

Mitchell I could type in 20 seconds the reasons all those wouldn't have worked based on the video and the actual incident.

Like it or not, a weapon is a weapon. The law doesn't make a distinction between what weapon you are holding. Only the distance you are able to be lethal changes.

You can leave and get out of the range of the knife easily. They can't, which leaves the nasty predicament of disarming and arresting this guy without getting sliced open and hopefully without killing him. Less lethal is great but a large percent of the forces don't have many options. Several agencies in my area have spray or bullets. Nothing in between.

Birdshot to the legs? Judged exactly the same as .223 to the chest. This isn't TV.

The stories of those non-lethal items not working as designed is fact. We don't have been bag rounds, but I have had the others fail.

I once read an article that said the police are the insulation between what people think the world is and what it really is. It isn't like TV, cops episodes happen once a month, Sipowitz would be in jail, a CSI episode would take about 12 months of lab time. Barney Miller was the only show even close to reality. :rolleyes:

Joe

[Mitchell Andrus]

Turn this around....

Lets say the man with the knife instead bumped a policeman with a car, dropped him to the ground, chased him with the car again and pinned him against a parking meter. I have no doubt the man would end up in court charged with attempted murder (or dead). The police would have my blessing if they shot him dead because the man was trying to kill with a deadly weapon - a car.

In the case of this video, there is no boubt the man could have died of a split spleen when he was trapped against the meter. If the police aren't trained to use their cars as weapons, then they likewise haven't been trained to use the car in such a manner with restraint. Did the cop plan to just knock him down - twice? Had he been trained to avoid breaking the man's legs? Severe injury is not only forseeable, but likely.

Police are trained to avoid taking life unless harm to others is immanent. Use of a car as a weapon against someone in street clothes can't possibly be something that's being taught at the academy - and but for their training, cops are just like you and me. The police don't even get to use the P.I.T. maneuver without permission from a higher-up, nor when injury to the suspect is likely. Hitting this guys was very likely to cause serious injury.. that's why running into someone with your car is illegal.

A police car is not a weapon in the cop's arsenal. If it was, we'd have police knocking people down a bit more often - don't you think???

[John Shuk]

If the cops were doing what they thought needed to be done in that situation I applaud them. Here in New york there was recently a case where a narcotics cop was under fire because he arrested a drug dealer carrying drugs. He made the mistake of saying something like "I'm going to go catch some drug dealers" in a known drug infested project. People have lost their way I think sometimes.

[Joe Chritz]

Turn this around....

Lets say the man with the knife instead bumped a policeman with a car, dropped him to the ground, chased him with the car again and pinned him against a parking meter. I have no doubt the man would end up in court charged with attempted murder (or dead). The police would have my blessing if they shot him dead because the man was trying to kill with a deadly weapon - a car.

In the case of this video, there is no boubt the man could have died of a split spleen when he was trapped against the meter. If the police aren't trained to use their cars as weapons, then they likewise haven't been trained to use the car in such a manner with restraint. Did the cop plan to just knock him down - twice? Had he been trained to avoid breaking the man's legs? Severe injury is not only forseeable, but likely.

Police are trained to avoid taking life unless harm to others is immanent. Use of a car as a weapon against someone in street clothes can't possibly be something that's being taught at the academy - and but for their training, cops are just like you and me. The police don't even get to use the P.I.T. maneuver without permission from a higher-up, nor when injury to the suspect is likely. Hitting this guys was very likely to cause serious injury.. that's why running into someone with your car is illegal.

A police car is not a weapon in the cop's arsenal. If it was, we'd have police knocking people down a bit more often - don't you think???

Original response removed. Walks out to do lawn work shaking head.

Joe

[Al Willits]

All this time I thought a knife was a deadly weapon, shows what little I know.

Al...who's off to do yard work with Joe before he says anything more...

[Greg Funk]

Police are trained to avoid taking life unless harm to others is immanent. Use of a car as a weapon against someone in street clothes can't possibly be something that's being taught at the academy - and but for their training, cops are just like you and me. The police don't even get to use the P.I.T. maneuver without permission from a higher-up, nor when injury to the suspect is likely. Hitting this guys was very likely to cause serious injury.. that's why running into someone with your car is illegal.
In this case we have a mentally unstable man walking about with deadly weapon in a public area. What would you do if he started to flee? Not towards a police officer but just run away. It wouldn't take him long (less than 20 seconds) before he would be in a position to attack and kill an innocent bystander. What would you say to the bystander's family? Sorry I didn't think he posed a threat. Or perhaps you would have the officers chase him and try and spray him with mace or throw bean bags at him hoping he would stop.

How about if the man was inside your house brandishing a knife? I don't live in Texas but even in Canada I would be OK to kill him with any method available.

Greg

[Glen Gunderson]

Turn this around....

Lets say the man with the knife instead bumped a policeman with a car, dropped him to the ground, chased him with the car again and pinned him against a parking meter. I have no doubt the man would end up in court charged with attempted murder (or dead). The police would have my blessing if they shot him dead because the man was trying to kill with a deadly weapon - a car.

In the case of this video, there is no boubt the man could have died of a split spleen when he was trapped against the meter. If the police aren't trained to use their cars as weapons, then they likewise haven't been trained to use the car in such a manner with restraint. Did the cop plan to just knock him down - twice? Had he been trained to avoid breaking the man's legs? Severe injury is not only forseeable, but likely.

Police are trained to avoid taking life unless harm to others is immanent. Use of a car as a weapon against someone in street clothes can't possibly be something that's being taught at the academy - and but for their training, cops are just like you and me. The police don't even get to use the P.I.T. maneuver without permission from a higher-up, nor when injury to the suspect is likely. Hitting this guys was very likely to cause serious injury.. that's why running into someone with your car is illegal.

A police car is not a weapon in the cop's arsenal. If it was, we'd have police knocking people down a bit more often - don't you think???

I'm not sure what you're criticizing. The man obviously wasn't seriously hurt and I think that the police, in using the car the way they did, probably saved his life rather than put it at risk. I'm not sure what kind of arsenals officers carry in parts of the US, but those that I'm aware of here in Canada generally have their pistols, batons, pepper spray, and some have begun to carry tasers, but that's a fairly recent trend (However, given the man's think winter coat, I don't even think a taser would have been effective). I have no doubt that riot police or crowd control are armed with bean bag guns, rubber bullets, tear gas, and other non lethal weapons, but your average officer does not carry those as standard equipment, and I would guess also may not be proficient in their safest use.

I suppose they could have put a call into the station to bring out an officer who had and was trained in using some of those other weapons you mention, but for all you know, they did. The knife wielding man may have forced their hands. What if he threatened to kill himself? Should the police have stood idly by to wait for someone got out there with a bean bag gun while the man harmed himself or others?

Frankly, all things considered, I think those officers should be applauded for their creativity and effectiveness. They disarmed the man with little or no injury to him or anyone else. The man could have easily been shot and killed as he advanced on the officers with a knife.

[Mitchell Andrus]

My core point is.. we give the ability to use deadly force to the police to use at their discretion. I think they stepped over the line.

Who authorized the cop to use his car as a weapon? If he instead clobbered the suspect in the head with a cinder block and just dazed him, would we applaud, or be fearful that we might be next? If the suspect's pacemaker stopped working, aorta was ruptured, leg got crushed - we'd likely be talking about police brutality and how 2 ton police cars shouldn't be used to subdue a crazed 160 lb suspect.

I wonder if the cops who beat the snot outta Rodney King were chasing him with a car instead, whether he'd be alive today. Would it be called an accident? Cops do after all go too far sometimes, HUH?

I think the rule of restraint wasn't followed in this case.

I'd imagine we would all like a little more restraint to be excersized when we're on the receiving end of a pissed off cop's attention,especially if we're mentally incapable of following orders to comply.

[Greg Funk]

Who authorized the cop to use his car as a weapon? If he instead clobbered the suspect in the head with a cinder block and just dazed him, would we applaud, or be fearful that we might be next?
Yes, you should always be fearful when threatening anyone with a deadly weapon and be thankful if you only get hit by a car.

I noticed you didn't answer my question: What would you have done had the suspect ran?

[Jonathon Spafford]

All I can say about this is, when you got are brandishing a lethal weapon you can expect lethal measures to be taken to apprehend you. We live in a society where everyone has to be treated with kid gloves... that can't be the mindset in law enforcement. You have to be ready to do anything to protect citizens. Maybe a car isn't an ideal weapon, but it works!

Maybe that situation wouldn't have taken place had the guy not been doing what he was doing! I personally don't see anything the police did as wrong... hey, it's not the polices fault that this guy was misusing a knife!

[Glen Gunderson]

My core point is.. we give the ability to use deadly force to the police to use at their discretion. I think they stepped over the line.

Who authorized the cop to use his car as a weapon? If he instead clobbered the suspect in the head with a cinder block and just dazed him, would we applaud, or be fearful that we might be next?

As long as I don't threaten and charge officers with a lethal weapon, I wouldn't be fearful.




I wonder if the cops who beat the snot outta Rodney King were chasing him with a car instead, whether he'd be alive today. Would it be called an accident? Cops do after all go too far sometimes, HUH?
Again, Rodney King was not threatening the police with a lethal weapon. He was unarmed and defenseless. I really don't see how four men repeatedly beating a defenseless man with metal batons is analogous to this situation where officers had good reason to fear for their lives.



I think the rule of restraint wasn't followed in this case.

I'd imagine we would all like a little more restraint to be excersized when we're on the receiving end of a pissed off cop's attention,especially if we're mentally incapable of following orders to comply.The officers in the video certainly didn't seem "pissed off" to me. They seemed fearful and eager to end the situation with a minimum of bloodshed. Had they begun to beat the man after he was unarmed, I'd agree with you that they didn't show any restraint. However, since they are authorized to kill the man, I'd say they showed a fair bit of restraint in this situation.

The way I see it, officers had a few options. Kill the man, wound him, try and talk to him (I don't think this was a viable option given the suspects repeated advances towards them), attempt to pepper spray him (which may very well have been tried before the video began), or try something else, i.e. immobilize him with a car.

As I said in a previous post, Canadian officers at the time were not equipped with tasers, and there is some question whether a taser would have even worked given the man's clothing. Most other non lethal weapons are usually only available for crowd control or during riots. They probably could have gotten ahold of them eventually, but they are not relied on in day to day situations.

[Al Willits]

I think if you would put your life in the hands of a Taser you may not live to regret that.

I know of a famous sports figure here in Minn who on booze and ? took 20+ hits with tasers and still stood there screaming at the cops, this guy was big enough to do great bodily harm with out a weapon, much less put a knife in his hands.

Personally once you threaten someone with a weapon, all bets are off, police and citizens are getting killed and maimed by morons who have no respect for their fellow man, and its the bleeding hearts who believe we need to be sensitive to our criminals, that are letting the criminals get away with it, again, and again.

Al

[Bob Oswin]

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

[Jason Roehl]

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Well said.

As for Rodney King, he did have a dangerous weapon--his vehicle. That part of the story often gets lost. He had been driving at 100+ MPH hopped up on PCP or something like that. He was indeed a threat to society. Should the cops have beat the snot out of him? Perhaps not, but I'm sure their adrenaline was through the roof after a high-speed chase like that, and we only know what happened once the video started rolling, not how much of a fight he put up before that. Maybe he got in a lucky shot to the nads of one of the cops or something like that. Do that to me, and I guarantee you I will respond with a greater measure of force. But, all many people chose to see was 4 cops beating a poor defenseless man...

For me to legally use deadly force in Indiana (as a civvie), you don't even have to touch me, you only have present an imminent danger to me or those around me.

[Rick Gibson]

Being a Canadian and former president of a handgun range where an unnamed police force used to recertify all I can say is if they had shot at him at least 2 of the cops would have been hit. The average cop in Toronto and area is scared of his gun and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 5 feet never mind a man. Also if they shoot him there is a big investigation and 6 months of paperwork. Then all the Toronto bleeding hearts get involved and the cop gets crucified.

[Mitchell Andrus]

"As for Rodney King, he did have a dangerous weapon--his vehicle."

He DID have a weapon, his car. Once he was OUT of his car he was disarmed and savagely beaten - weaponless. Maybe the police could have turned down the heat a bit????

Officer's self control went out the window. Seems to happen a lot lately. Maybe that day in Toronto too - just a little?

[M Toupin]

Bottom line is this guy was armed with a deadly weapon, a knife. All the speculation on his mental state is just that, speculation. While I don't know anything else about this situation than the 20 seconds of video everyone else saw, I can tell you that this situation probably unfolded in a matter of a seconds, few minutes at most. Police officers don't Carry around a trunk full of toys, seldom is there time to get fire hoses, fire ladders, bean bag guns, tasers etc unless it's on scene at that time. This ain't the movies, it's real life. The officers involved made decisions and took action on what they knew at that second in time and with the equipment they had on hand.


My core point is.. we give the ability to use deadly force to the police to use at their discretion. I think they stepped over the line..

Everyone is entitled to an opinion... mind qualifying your training, experience and knowledge of dealing with deadly force situations that would lead you to make such a statement?


Who authorized the cop to use his car as a weapon?

Who says he needed "authorization"? Does anyone really believe that an officer needs to wait for "authorization" to use force? The question is whether the force used was "reasonable" based on the facts at the time. I have 24 years of law enforcement experience, In my professional opinion it was.


If the suspect's pacemaker stopped working, aorta was ruptured, leg got crushed - we'd likely be talking about police brutality and how 2 ton police cars shouldn't be used to subdue a crazed 160 lb suspect.

And if the suspect had stabbed and killed one of the officers, or worse yet an Innocent bystander, some would argue why they didn't shoot him from the onset... we can play the "what if" game all day.


Cops do after all go too far sometimes, HUH? I think the rule of restraint wasn't followed in this case.

See above, everyone is entitled to an opinion...


I'd imagine we would all like a little more restraint to be exercised when we're on the receiving end of a pissed off cop's attention,especially if we're mentally incapable of following orders to comply.

Interesting comment and use of words. "on the receiving end of a pissed off cop's attention,especially if we're mentally incapable of following orders to comply." Spend much time in either of these two states? Know anyone who does? Better yet, should the police just allow folks like that walk away because they are "mentally incapable of following orders to comply"? Interesting concept, let me know how the citizens in your city feel about that idea.

Comment #2
Pissed off cops... were the heck did that come from? I saw absolutely NOTHING in the tape to indicate the officers involved were "pissed off". Infact I saw a lot of officers using a great deal of restraint. On at least one occasion when the suspect was chasing the officers they were more than justified in shooting him but didn't.

It's easy to set back in the comfort of someones middle class home in safe neighborhoods and throw stones. What's "normal" in your little world is definitely not the norm in many areas and folks life. I always find it a bit humorous that no one wants the police around unless a thug is trying to break into your home or robbing them, then everyone wants the police NOW and wants to know were the heck the police are.

Bob's George Orwell quote is quite appropriate here

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."