Speaking of pens.....

[Bonnie Campbell]

To start, I want to thank Nancy for all the help she has been! :)

But I've got a few dumb questions I thought I'd post here instead of pestering her to much..... Be warned, I've NEVER made a pen :o

One, why do they sell 'pre-drilled blanks' if you have to use a certain sized drill bit for a pen? Is the pre-drilled hole just sort of a guide? And are the bits most places sell the correct length I'd need (they don't say how long they are)?

Two, is any two part epoxy good to use putting them together? I'm guessing a slow set?

Guess that's enough for now. I'll be asking more, but going to order PSI's free video on making them too.

Just so ya know why my rush of question... I had someone ask if I could make 9 pens for a wedding. Of course I said yes. No pen making equipment or knowledge lol I'll learn to say no...... someday :rolleyes:

[Bernie Weishapl]

Bonnie I got some pre-drilled blanks and they were 7 MM for slimline and some Euro pens. I would much rather buy the undrilled blanks and drill myself. Just my preference. As far as epoxy goes I use both the 5 minute and 20 minute. If I am gluing a number of pens at a time I use the 20 minute epoxy. If I am doing one or two I use the 5 minute. Most times I just buy my epoxy from Wal-Mart. You can get your bits from Woodcraft, PSI, Packard Woodworks, CSUSA, etc. and yes they will be long enough. It is generally the drill press that has a short quill movement and my first one was 2 3/8" which would not get thru the blank. My new one has 3 1/8" which will do most pens. I buy my pen making stuff from Bear Tooth Woods. Ernie is a good guy and he definately will take care of you.

[Nancy Laird]

To start, I want to thank Nancy for all the help she has been! :)

But I've got a few dumb questions I thought I'd post here instead of pestering her to much..... Be warned, I've NEVER made a pen :o

One, why do they sell 'pre-drilled blanks' if you have to use a certain sized drill bit for a pen? Is the pre-drilled hole just sort of a guide? And are the bits most places sell the correct length I'd need (they don't say how long they are)?

Two, is any two part epoxy good to use putting them together? I'm guessing a slow set?

Guess that's enough for now. I'll be asking more, but going to order PSI's free video on making them too.

Just so ya know why my rush of question... I had someone ask if I could make 9 pens for a wedding. Of course I said yes. No pen making equipment or knowledge lol I'll learn to say no...... someday :rolleyes:

First, Bonnie, you are very welcome. I don't mind at all helping out a "fellow" woodworker. And you are NOT pestering me.

Second, the only "dumb" questions are the ones you DON'T ask--how are you going to learn if you don't ask??

Pen blanks: No, no one that I know of sells pre-drilled wood blanks. Pen blanks are usually 3/4 x 3/4 x 5" and can be cut on grain, cross-grain, angled, or any way that the sawyer wants to make them.

Most pen blanks are sold dry, in packages, so any drilling prior to sale would be done prior to packaging and the wood would shrink as it dried, making the hole too small. The only pre-drilled blanks I've heard of are the stabilized wood or acrylic, and you'd have to make sure that you buy the right-sized pre-drilled blank for the tube you are using. I've never seen wood blanks for sale that have been pre-drilled. I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

You mark the blank across one face so you'll know which ends go together in the middle for grain continuation, and cut it into two pieces, each a little longer (maybe 1/8" or so) than the length of the tubes you are using. You will usually have a piece 1/2 to 1" left over. Don't try to drill the blank until you have cut them down to size. Be sure you keep each pair of blanks together so you don't end up with a maple clip barrel and something else for the nib barrel.

We use medium viscosity CA (super glue) to glue the tubes into blanks. Before you start gluing tubes into blanks, scuff up the tube with some sandpaper so the glue will have something to grab. Just put a glob of the glue on a scrap of wood, then using a small dowel, roll the dowel around in the glue and run it through the hole in the blank and work the glue into the drilled hole, smear some glue on the tube, and push the tube into place. Two-part epoxy is messy; CA is less so. (Craft Supplies sells a "tube insertion tool" that you just slip into the end of the tube to push it into the blank--less mess on the fingers.) After the glue has dried (we let them sit overnight, at least), then you use the barrel trimmer to take off the excess wood down to the end of the tube--try not to take off any brass!!

I have to thank you, too, Bonnie. You have helped me get the "order" of things straight in my mind for my demo at AWFS. Although I already have my blanks ready to go on the mandrel, I'll still have to explain how it's done, and putting it into words here has helped me.

Just PM or e-mail me if you have more questions. If I can't answer them, I'll say so and you can post here so some of the more experienced turners can answer them. And no, I don't know how to do closed-end pens--not yet, anyway.

Nancy

[Rich Souchek]

Bonnie,
There is a lot to learn about pens, but the good news is they are relatively simple, just demanding in different ways from regular woodturning.
Couple of reference informative sites for you:
1. http://www.woodturnerruss.com/Pen10.html this is Russ Fairfield's website that has some good tutorials on basic pen making.
2. The website of penturners.org for general pen information and ideas.
3. They have some instruction videos in their library:
a. Ed Davidson's vidio tips are http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16939
b. http://www.penturners.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17155 for some CA finishing tips.


The predrilled blanks I've seen had 7mm holes, which means they are intended for 7mm slimline, streamline, some of the cushion type pens, and the 7 mm Eurpoean style pens.
Most of the larger pens take different size holes and larger blanks to start with.
Guess the first question is what type of pen and finish did you get talked into to? Wood or acrylic blank?
Know any pen turniers nearby that you can get help from and learn from?

Keep asking the questions, and please show us the finished pens.
Rich S.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bonnie.....PSI advertises pre-drilled pen blanks for sale in their catalogue. I was just looking at it as I needed to order some pen making materials. I tried using CA glue but had a couple explode/tear out on me. I now use epoxy. Yeah it's slower but I seem to have better luck with it than I had with CA. That could just be me and an error in my methodas I know a lot of pen turners use CA.

[Steve Trauthwein]

Bonnie,

I use 5 minute epoxy to glue my tubes in the blanks. I rough the tubes with coarse sandpaper to help adhesion. I can glue three or four sets of tubes at a time. I currently have 40 sets glued up so I am usually not in a hurry to use a newly glued blank. I like to let them cure overnight anyway.

I also had problems with ca and find the epoxy quick and practically fool proof. There is a lot of good information on the net, just do a search for pen turning instructions, also join IAP.

There is a learning curve so don't start with your best blanks.

Regards, Steve

[Bonnie Campbell]

Y'all are such a wealth of information, and I thank you for sharing it so freely :)

I think he'll be going with slim line pens. And the wood blanks he'll get won't be pre-drilled (that was just a 'wonder why' question). There will be 8 different types of wood, from soft stuff up to lignum vitae. He's trying to match the wood characteristics to each groomsman and his dad. Then the 9th pen is to be a composite of all the woods into one for himself. Guess I'll need to make sure for sanding I keep similar types together.

Since my drill only goes 2", I guess I'll need to drill on the lathe?

So far equipment I figure that is 'must have':

Mandrel (of course)
barrel trimmer
pen press
tube insertion tool
drill bit
glue

Do y'all hand cut the blanks or run them through a band saw? I noticed PSI has a little set up with a hand saw to cut the blanks....?

Trying to get in a crash course by reading through articles, forums and catalogs. So If I've left anything out don't hesitate to let me know!

I'm hoping to just buy one extra kit as a practice run (yeah, right lol). Any of his that I destroy would need quick replacing :eek:

[Paul Heely]

Hi Bonnie,
Pens are a lot of fun to make, I'm sure you'll enjoy them.

For glue I mainly use epoxy or polyurethane (gorilla glue). On the arrow shaft pen I just made I used the polyurethane because I wanted something that would expand to fill any voids between the shaft and the insert I had to turn to go into the shaft.

I've been getting by without a purpose built pen press. I use a Bessey K clamp to assembly my pens and so far its been working well.

For cutting I use a small crosscut sled on my band saw.

One other thing you might think of since these are gifts is some kind of sleeve or case to put the pens in.

[Dale Stagg]

You can easily cut the blanks using a band saw as they don't have to be square anyway as you will square them up later using the barrel trimmer. Just cut them a little oversize. Many times while drilling, there is chances of the drill removing chips from the ends of blanks, so the barrel trimmer helps get to new wood that is not chipped off from using a drill bit. Just insert the tube when glueing with the pen tube insed both ends of the wood blanks and let cure.
Never have had a pen press. I use a normal steel vise with some plastic or wood pieces that contact the jaws on each end and press the pens together.

[Tim Malyszko]

So far equipment I figure that is 'must have':

Mandrel (of course)
barrel trimmer
pen press
tube insertion tool
drill bit
glue


Bonnie,

For what it is worth, Rockler now sells a pretty nice beginners pen turning kit for about $80. Here is the link:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17820&filter=7mm%20kit

It includes everything you need to turn 3 slim-line pens. Once you make your first three with the kit, all you need at that point is the blanks and the pen kits.

The kit includes the following. I also broke down the prices for the individual parts for comparisons sake:

One Bloodwood Pen Blank ($1)
One Bubinga Pen Blank ($1)
One Olivewood Pen Blank ($2)
(3) 7mm Pen Hardware Kits. (3 x $4.50)
7mm mandrel with knurled nut. ($16)
#2 Morse Taper.
(4) 7mm bushings. ($4)
7mm Brad Point Drill Bit. ($4)
2 oz. bottle of CA Glue. ($8)
Pen Mill (2-piece design. 3/16" threaded shank, 1/2" end mill, 1/4" clean-out shaft. Includes Allen wrench for interchanging “end mill” component.) ($24)
Plano Storage Case with 28 adjustable compartments. ($10)You save a couple of bucks buying the kit and with it, you will be turning the basic 7mm slimline pen in no time. I started out with this kit last weekend and was able to jump into pen turning feet first.

The only thing not included is a finishing method. I use a friction finish product that I also picked up at Rockler for something like $11.

Have fun. Pens are addicting. I'm going to turn out a few more today.

[Bonnie Campbell]

Is the pen disassembler something really needed to start out?

I am taking note of all the good advice, just tossing in questions as I think of them :o

[Paul Heely]

Bonnie, I don't have a disassembler, but sometimes wish I did when the fit of parts weren't just right when I pressed them into the tubes. On that note you might also want to order some extra tubes and blanks just in case you go a little too small or the shape does not come out the way you like.

[Bobby Perry]

Bonnie I just ordered another 100 funline pen kits from PSI. This will make 200 so far. I pour my own poly blanks and order my wood blanks off ebay. I drill on the lathe. I don't have a dis assembler I just use a 1/4 inch bolt and my hand. I keep about 20 extra tubes . Cause sometimes I get in hurry and mess up. I use CA to glue and haven't had a problem except when I am too slow putting the tube in. I also use epoxy. I rough up the tubes with my belt sander with a 80 grit belt on it. Put the tube on the 1/4 inch bolt and hit it on the belt sander for just a second then turn it over and get it the other way. I have never had a problem with them blowing out because of the glue up.

This is one I did this morning.
The box it is in comes from Woodcrafts $.90 each I pay $.78 cause I buy 30 to 40 at a time.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Bonnie good advice above. I had the exact problem. Buy extra 7 MM tubes and some extra blanks. I was turning a pen and it tore out on me. So had to wait for another blank and tubes to come before I could finish that pen. I have never used the disassembler. I do have the pen press from PSI and it works very well. On the tube insertion tool I just use a tapered punch I got for a couple of dollars. Rich gave you some excellent info on sites. Russ's site has lots of info. The site penturners.org is a very good site with lots of info. I joined and it is well worth it. Just the penturning forum and finishing forum has a ton of info. For finishing I use Enduro Poly and Enduro Sealer or just Lacquer. Those have given me the most durability for finishes. My wife has a pen in Lacquer and I have one with Enduro a year old we use every day. They still look as good as when I made them. My experience with friction polish is it doesn't hold up well. CA works very well but I can't hack the fumes. I tried a couple with CA and the looks plus durability is very good but as I said the fumes get to me.

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

Hi Bonnie,


A lot of good info already posted, I find penturners.org to be my pen forum of choice. They have a great group of pen makers there and also some really good articles in the library that you can down load.

Russ Fairfield's web site is easily the best for any one looking to improve or just get the basic's, Russ likes to help others.

Some have mentioned how they cut, for me it's really important to get it square. I like to do a clean grain match from the top to the pen bottom at the part line. The line you cut should be accurate and clean to get a clean match. I use pen mills, but with a clean square cut you have very minimal material wasted at that part line, the eye can see a mismatch over 1/16" easily

Here is what I mean, see how the cap and the pen barrel line up.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/jimshaver50/IMG_8945.jpg




I have been using my bandsaw for cutting blanks for a long time.

I use a cross cut sled that stops when the guide bearings touch my stop block.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/jimshaver50/IMG_3236.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/jimshaver50/IMG_3013.jpg


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/jimshaver50/IMG_3009.jpg


I also do all my pen blank drilling on the lathe

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/jimshaver50/IMG_7955.jpg


dead centre;)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/jimshaver50/IMG_7951.jpg

I use my Talon chuck and a Jacobs chuck in the tail stock...500 rpm


hope that helps:D

[Ellen Benkin]

Lots of great information here. Once you get rolling/turning, you'll find the "zen" of pen turning.

I use a benchtop drill press to start the holes and then, because it doesn't have a throw long enough to go all the way through, I finish with the drill bit in a cordless drill. No problems so far.

I also don't use a special "tube inserter". You'll find you can jam the tubes on to a sharpened wooden pencil and it will hold the tubes long enough to insert them in the blanks. I use medium CA glue, which dries quickly and seems to hold just fine. Also, my "press" is the vise on my workbench. The only thing I did special was create a divot big enough to fit the nib point of the pen so that I didn't damage it.

If you're making a number of pens, my advice is to set up a production line. Do all the cutting to size and then all the drilling and then rough up the tubes and insert them and then use the barrell cutter to make the ends flat and then turn them all. I also leave all of them "rough" turned until I'm ready to go to sanding and finishing. Remember you can take them off the mandrel and put them back on easily.

For finishing, I use the Shella system. First the EEE to seal the wood and then the liquid Shellawax to give it a nice shine.

After all that is done, you get to put them together and admire the finished product.

[Bonnie Campbell]

Wow, you all are such a wealth of information. I really appreciate it :)

I don't have a decent vise, so I guess I'll splurge on a press. Ya know how it goes, get it while the spouse is thinking it's a good investment. If I use a vise once he'll ask why I'd need the press lol I'd mentioned turning pens awhile back to my husband. He just said I was busy enough doing turkey calls, so was it worth getting the pen stuff. Couldn't argue that point until now. I'm gonna shop! lol

Other than figuring where to order it all from I guess I have my starter list set up. Just waiting on the order to be finalized.

[Steve Trauthwein]

Bonnie,

You have been getting some great responses. If you continue to make pens I believe you will want a disassembler, no need to buy one as it can easily be made from key stock and round stock for next to nothing.

Holding in the lathe for drilling will be an excellent choice, I would advise you to cut your blanks a little long in case you have tear out as your drill exits. Drill slowly clearing chips as you go.

I personally do not find a need for a tube insertion tool. I just roll the tube into epoxy I have on a marble tile I use to mix it on. I then insert the tube in the blank twisting and pumping it a couple of times, push it to within a 1/4 inch of the end, then push it in the rest of the way with a popsicle stick and wipe off the excess glue back on to the tile. With a few tries this goes very easy and eliminates another (imho) useless tool.

When I mentioned the learning curve before part of it hinges on different woods, they tend to cut differently. Sneak up on the bushings and leave a tiny amount to sand off.

Good luck, Steve

[Steven Russell]

Hello Bonnie,

There are very few pre-drilled blanks available. They offer a convenience for some turners who do not want to take the time to drill their own blanks. However, the selection is very limited and the price is usually quite high, so most turners drill their own blanks. If you have a drilling jig and a drill press, its very easy to drill your own blanks. I wrote and article on pen turning that you may want to look at:
http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/writing-pens.html

While you're there, take a look at the other free articles in my educational library. There are currently 21 articles on various woodturning topics available for your to enjoy. The main library page is located here:
http://www.woodturningvideosplus.com/woodturning-education-articles.html

As for the glue, I use Binary Epoxies (System Three Slow Set), Cyanoacrylates (CA glue) and Polyurethane adhesives (Gorilla Glue) primarily. The epoxies work well and are my first choice on high end pens. I also use polyurethane adhesives quite a bit on some models. On occasion, I will use thick CA glue as well, it really depends on the type of pen and the selling price.

If you have any more questions, please do not hesitate to contact me. Take care and all the best to you and yours!

[Patrick Taylor]

Two things I apparently do differently... (for yet another way to do things)
1. I don't use a drill press or drill on the lathe... I put the blank in a vice (actually a handscrew with a c-clamp) and drill by hand. If you're careful it's pretty easy. I was too cheap to buy a drill press that would swing more than 2".
2. For tube insertion I just use my fingers. With CA curing fast, I don't usually have time to futz around with another tool.

I don't know if anyone talked about bushings, but don't forget those! IMHO, if you have a set number of pens to deliver, order enough extra kits to screw up a few. Lots can go wrong and it only takes one screw-up to ruin a pen. :rolleyes:

Lastly.... post some photos! :D

[Bonnie Campbell]

All I can say is "Wow!" I don't think I've ever seen another forum where people share their knowledge so freely.

I'm making note of all suggestions and reading the link information too. I'll probably jump in this week with both feet and get equipment ordered :) Then I guess I'll be giving it a try. Funny how turning a little piece of wood can be more intimidating than a 8" bowl lol

Thanks to everyone again!

[Bonnie Campbell]

Oh! Which is better to use... a mandrel that holds both pieces of wood at once or the single piece of wood?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bonnie.....I've not seen a mandrel that holds one piece of wood. Most pen mandrels I've seen hold both pieces and they are turned side-by-side. I wonder if the pieces that only hold one piece are made for turning handles for magnifying glasses, kaleidoscopes, eggs....or some of the pens that only have a one piece wooden body?

[Bonnie Campbell]

The one piece holder is at Woodcraft. Not seeing a two piece holder. He's now looking at the American classic click pen from there ..... Aren't mandrels sold to the inside diameter of a pen? They have no size listed on the mandrel they carry :confused: The pen drill bit is listed as a 11mm.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bonnie............Mandrels are typically sold by inside diameter of hole drilled in the pen blank. Most are set up to hold both pieces of wood simulaneously. So you turn the long barrel and the short barrel while both are on the mandrel. I have a 7mm pen mandrel from Woodcraft......I think it's about $9-10.

[Michael Armstrong]

Bonnie:
It is the bushings that are sold for the pen set that properly size things to fit on the mandrel. Patrick mentioned the bushings in his post. Without them you have no way of securing the blanks on the mandrel to prevent them from turning and also the bushings give you the sizing for the pieces that have to be press fit into the pen.

Michael

[Bonnie Campbell]

Whew! Starting to think I'm getting brain cramps :o

This would probably be so much easier to figure out if the guy would just decide what he wants so I can get things ordered. Though, since the mandrel is just the mandrel and bushing are what counts, I guess I could get my basics ordered.

[Steven Russell]

Hello Bonnie,

Single mandrels have been around for many years... They are not as popular as double mandrels, but are more accurate in many respects. With a single mandrel you turn the top of the pen barrel first and then remove the completed barrel and mount the lower barrel for turning.

You can also use them for key chains, perfume pens, etc. I used a single mandrel for turning pens for several years and still use one on occasion. The double mandrels are less accurate (in general terms) because the mandrel shaft is longer, thus it's more prone to flexing. Either mandrel can be used, if cared for and mounted properly.

The single mandrel requires two fixings (mountings), thus it has fallen out of favor with the mainstream pen turning crowd. There are also adjustable mandrels available that are essentially a double mandrel that is adjustable to a single, or even shorter through means of a hole in the Morse taper. I use these frequently as well.

Another mandrel option is to use a collet chuck, with the proper collet installed and just the mandrel shaft and tightening nut mounted, no morse taper. This is the most accurate option, but few woodturners use it as it requires an expensive collet chuck.

This is the fixing I use (collet chuck) on all of my high end pens, in conjunction with a digital caliper to insure correct fitting to 1/1000th of an inch (pen metal component to barrel material). You ask really good questions, I like that! :) Take care and all the best to you and yours!



Oh! Which is better to use... a mandrel that holds both pieces of wood at once or the single piece of wood?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Bonnie......Go to Steven Russell's profile in the membership list and go to his website. He has an excellent article on turning pens.


Go to Russ Fairfield's website www.Woodturnerruss.com (http://www.Woodturnerruss.com) where he explains turning and finishing pens.

There's a lot of information at both sites and can explain a lot of what's giving you a headache!

Good luck!

[Bonnie Campbell]

Thanks Ken :) I've been checking out ALL the sites people have mentioned (in posts and in pm's). They've all been very helpful too!

Okay, the single mandrel is supposed to be a bit more accurate then the double. So, looking at the pricing, would you say buying two singles (9.99 each) would be a good deal. Then both can be ready to turn (of course I'd need double bushings) but wouldn't have to worry about mixing up a blank and have the second piece all set to pop in the lathe. And extra bushing don't hurt to have from what I'm reading......

I know, y'all are hoping I just get my rear in gear and start in on it lol I'm trying to convince myself of that ;) And I DO have stuff in my shopping cart finally :)