Veritas Bevel Up Angle Choices

[Randy Klein]

LV offers 3 different bevel angles for their bevel up trio of planes: a 25, 38, and 50. When combined with the 12 degree bed angle, you can get a 37, 50, and 62. These angles are obviously useful.

However, you can also get these angles by honing a secondary (micro) bevel on the 25?

So, for example, if you desire an angle of 62 (just an example, no particular reason for this number): you can use the primary bevel of the 50 degree iron, hone an additional 12 degree micro-bevel on the 38 degree iron, or hone an additional 25 degree micro-bevel on the 25 degree iron.

1. Would these 3 options perform the same? Or is the some disadvantage?

If no disadvantage, it would seem apparent to purchase only the 25 degree irons and hone whatever micro bevel you desire on it, as opposed to be limited to the primary bevel of another iron.

Also, I have read several posts that sharpening BU irons needs to be different due to the way the edge wears while planing. Some people state the back bevels are necessary for BU irons to hone away the wear bevel.

2. Now that the LV BU planes have been out for awhile, has anyone perfected the way to sharpen them or have you not changed your method and see no need for it?

[Rob Luter]

Hi Randy,

I'll toss in my $0.02.

Earlier this year I bought a LV Low Angle Jack Plane with an A2 iron (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=49708&cat=1,41182,52515). I also bought the two other available irons, also in A2. Out of the box it was the best functioning plane I had ever used. I fiddled around with the different irons to get a feel for how they would perform, and all worked well. The lowest angle blade (25 deg.) worked well on end grain and edge grain. The 38 deg worked pretty well for edge grain and face grain. The 50 deg worked great on face grain as well as on the face of curley QS white oak, technically edge grain. The steeper the angle, the tougher it was to push the plane, but the rewards were great.

I suppose that you could just change the micro bevel to get the same results (that's what LN suggests) but I'm lazy and would rather just swap out blades. When I've sharpened the blades I've matched the primary bevel to clean things up, then changed a couple of degrees and hit the micro bevel. I have a LV MKII jig that makes it pretty easy. The 38 degree micro bevel really winds up to be 39 degrees, but who cares? It's so damn sharp it's scary. Transparent curls are easy to dial in. With the QSWO they look like lace due to the pores in the wood.

I've been sharpening using the 3M abrasive film with PSA on float glass and I've got to say it's superior to wet/dry paper. Even the real fine grades cut really well. A mirror finish is real easy to achieve.

[Randy Klein]

Rob,

I have the LV BU smoother, just haven't taken it out for a test drive yet. I think I'll just buy the 25 degree irons and do micro-bevels. Those should be easier to touch up, although I doubt it's much.

[Andy Hsieh]

you could start out just honing different microbevels but in the end, i think you'll find it easier and lees time consuming to just swap out a blade that already has the bevel set. If you are using the one plane for many functions, then you will probably find this out sooner than later.

I have the 25 and the 38 and will be ordering the 50 real soon.

I have the mkII sharpening jig and use that on oilstones - blades are O1.
final polish using green rouge from LV - wispy wispy shavings.

[Randy Klein]

I must not be communicating write... :)

I do intend on using multiple blades for different applications. In fact, I plan on having 3 different blades at 38 degrees alone (1 w/smoother camber, 1 w/jointer camber, 1 straight for edge jointing). I may even replicate that at 50 and 25 if needed. I'll at least have 1 25, no camber, for end grain.

But my question was how should I create the 38 degree iron: a secondary bevel on a 25 or no secondary (or very small) on a 38.

Is there any disadvantage of using the 25 degree primary bevel iron and honing a 38 degree micro bevel on it vs. using the 38 degree iron as is (or even with a small 1 degree micro bevel)? I can only think that there is possibility of having more chatter since there is less metal behind it. Not sure really.

I'm only considering this because it seems like 25's are more versatile since you can put a secondary bevel on it and achieve any angle between 26 and above. Whereas, the 38 can only have a secondary bevel of 39 and above.

[Rob Luter]

I see your point now Randy. I suppose that you could do it all with micro bevels on a selection of 25 degree blades. I never really thought about it that way.

You may find that camber is a little tougher to add to these blades than to a standard plane iron. The bedding angle combined with the thickness might make for a challenge.

[Jim Nardi]

Since you can interchange the blades in all 3 planes I bought one extra at 38 degree's and added a micro bevel on make it about 42 or so. Reground one to bring it into the 30 range. I didn't alter my sharpening method which I mostly stick to the David Charlesworth 2 bevel system. I skip the ruler trick for LA blades. I can see ordering a few more blades in the fall to experiment with. Perhaps having several blades staggered 3 degree's between them might yield a little more experience for me. I have to admit my usual MO is when a plane isn't working is to either touch up the edge or grab another plane off the shelf that I know will work and carry on. There's not much out there on the LA subject but one observation is that mouth opening needs to be even tighter with high angle blades in a LA plane.

[Derek Cohen]

I'm only considering this because it seems like 25's are more versatile since you can put a secondary bevel on it and achieve any angle between 26 and above. Whereas, the 38 can only have a secondary bevel of 39 and above.

Randy, you are spot on with your reasoning. I have several irons for use in the LV bevel up planes. I cannot be certain but have an idea that the the BU irons were only available with 25 degree primary bevels until relatively recently anyway. Certainly the one's I received were all 25 degreed.

For reference, my irons for the LV BU planes have the following cutting angles (subtract the 12 degree bed for the secondary microbevel angle):

LA Smoother: 37 degrees and 62 degrees
BU Smoother: 62 degrees
LA Jack: 37 degrees and 62 degrees
BU Jointer: 62 degrees

I also have:

Marcou S15 Smoother (15 degree bed): 60 degrees
My own infill BU smoother (25 degree bed): 60 degrees

The latter two do not use microbevels on a flat primary bevel, but I have hollow ground these at 45 and 35 degrees respectively so that I can hone by just freehanding them (where as a microbevel on a flat face requires a honing guide).

one observation is that mouth opening needs to be even tighter with high angle blades in a LA plane.

Jim, I have not noticed this. I can state with much conviction that the higher the cutting angle, the less important the size of the mouth. When you get to 60 degrees, it is not relevant at all. This goes for both BU and BD configurations.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Luter]

I concur with Derek on the mouth opening versus cutting angle. At 62 degrees, by Jack plane operates much like a scraper with the mouth open or closed. The difference is that it really cuts nice!

[Randy Klein]

Since we're on the subject of mouth opening: does it matter when planing endgrain?

[Derek Cohen]

Randy

No. Not a whit.

http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec.net/cgi-bin/archives_handtools.pl?read=68098

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Randy Klein]

No. Not a whit.

That's what I was thinking. I also appreciate your other response on the micro-bevels. I feel more confident now just ordering 25 degree irons and customizing them with whatever micro-bevels I need.

[Wiley Horne]

Hi All,

I have a question of those experienced with bevel-up bench planes. The question is how you handle the wear on the blade back, when you re-sharpen. Do you take enough material off the bevel to get back past the wear on the blade back? Or do you put a facet on the back, using the Charlesworth method? Or do you just strop the wear smooth each time you sharpen?

Secondly, for those that do put a second facet on the back, what happens under repeated sharpening? Do you find that if you take enough metal off the primary bevel, that you can maintain the secondary facet, without having it grow and grow under repeated re-sharpening?

Wiley

[Randy Klein]

Wiley,

I posed this exact question to Chris Schwarz, editor of Popular Woodworking Magazine and Woodworking Magazine. He had been using the LV BU trio of planes for a whole year. Here's my email to him and his response:

My email to him:
Chris, I've been reading that bevel up irons wear differently while planing
and that a change to the traditional sharpening methods are in order (a back
bevel, more than the ruler trick one, is needed to hone the wear bevel that
was created). Since you have used these planes for a year now, I imagine
you sharpened them quite a few times. Did you change the way you sharpen or
is the traditional method adequate?
***************
His response:

Randy,

They may indeed wear differently. I wouldn't dispute anyone's findings on
that point.

However, for the home woodworker who uses these planes a few times a week, I
think it's a minor issue. I use planes just about every day for work (and at
home). And I have found no compelling reason to alter my sharpening methods.
I just sharpen them like I would a bevel-down tool. The camber on a bevel-up
might need to be a bit different, but again, it's a small change that most
people don't need to mess with.

Sorry that this seems like a non-answer to a good question.

--
Christopher Schwarz
Editor

Popular Woodworking magazine
Woodworking Magazine
4700 E. Galbraith Road
Cincinnati, OH 45236

Learn How. Discover Why. Build Better

phone: 513-531-2690 ext. 1407
email: chris.schwarz@fwpubs.com
blog: http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/
http://www.popularwoodworking.com
http://woodworking-magazine.com

[Derek Cohen]

I whole heartedly agree with Chris.

For a while I was using David Charlesworth's Ruler Trick to create a micro backbevel. In the beginning David designed this strategy as a shortcut to honing blades with backs that were not flat. This is not a reason to use them on quality new blades since they will come from the factory in state almost ready to go. David had old Stanley/Record blades in mind. Then the technique became one of removing the wire edge, and this is the reason I incorporated it. In addition, the "upside down" bevel up blades were considered to wear on the backs more rapidly that those used in a BD configuration, so it was a case of killing two birds with one stone.

However ... I get quite lazy about honing. I have done so much experimentation that some might think I like the area. I do not. I am looking for quicker, more efficient honing strategies that do not compromise quality. So I increasingly return to freehand honing. This involves grinding a hollow and honing freehand on waterstones. Also, I like to touch up on strops in between honings (keeping the edge sharp). This method is not suited to the traditional BU method(if one could call it that with such a short history) that involves very specific microbevel angles via a honing guide. A micro backbevel gets in the way when stropping as it is important (very important!) that you do not exceed 5 degrees here so as to maintain at least 7 degrees of clearance. So I began to hone without a backbevel ... and found that it made no difference at all.

I mostly treat my BU blades in exactly the same way as I treat my BD blades. I grind the angle I seek on a 6" high speed dry grinder, and for the BU blades I make use of the Tormek angle setter. I can then freehand them on my Shaptons. I can freehand hone them on strops as I work. No backbevel. No need.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Wiley Horne]

Thank you, Derek. That makes total sense. Hollow grinding would allow one not only to freehand easily, but also to take off enough material using your first stone, that you'd get back past the wear on the blade back. And above all, you'd maintain a flat back.

Excellent advice.

Wiley

[Randy Klein]

So, my hypothesis is:

If you plan on hollow grinding (ala Derek's method), then buying the irons that have the desired primary bevel already ground is the way to go.

If you plan on flat grinding and using microbevels, than buying the 25 degree iron and honing the appropriate microbevel is the way to go.

In the end, you can grind away any amount of metal on any beveled iron to accommodate your sharpening method. But this approach minimizes the initial amount of metal needing to be removed.