Router profile & use questions

[John Miliunas]

OK, I've pretty much hit a "dead end" over here. To explain, our recent house purchase includes a LOT of re-doing on the inside, which includes ALL the trim. Every last stitch of it is too plain, ugly, cheap and it's all been *painted* the same color as the respective room. Icko, yucko! LOML came up with a piece of molding, which she fell in love with and says to me, "OK, here it is. THIS is IT!" Well, I've dug through ALL of my catalogs looking for the same/similar profile in a router bit. Even stopped at Woodcraft today, who carry a very complete line of CMT, Woodcraft and Whitesides. Nada. Nothing. Zero, zilcho, not even close. I did,however, come across a close match in a shaper cutter at Grizzly. No good: Don't own a shaper. I am, however, aware that there are numerous outfits who will machine a custom cutter for you.

So, now you have the background. My BIG question is: Anybody know of an outfit that can make a custom router bit to a specific profile? I know the obvious answer to my dilema is to get the Grizzly cutter and a shaper to match it! :D However, I'm trying to do this with the tools I have available.

Which leads in to question #2: Do you guys think a router is up to milling a couple thousand or so feet of trim? It's the Hitachi MV12, so it's pretty stout, but I realize that maybe even something that size may not be up to the task. Any experience with large volumes like this? Appreciate any info/feedback on both or either issues! :cool:

[Rob Russell]

John,

I feel that, for the sort of thing you're looking to do, a hand-fed router table is asking for frustration and trouble.

I'm setting up for a similar project in our house - several thousand feet of trim plus 14 doors. I wouldn't consider it without a shaper and power feeder. Having said that, do you need to spend the bux I have on equipment? Absolutely not.

If what you want is to put a consistent profile on 3/4" stock, a small shaper and small power feeder will do just fine. You want the ability to keep a piece of stock moving past the cutting blades at a consistent rate, otherwise you're asking for dips as you speed up and slow down the feed rate.

You could possibly do this with a herky router in a table and the power feeder, but - as you've discovered - bits are a challenge.

Another aspect to going with a shaper is that you can get a cutterhead that takes disposable knives. That way you can have knives ground to the profile you want and, when a set gets dull, toss them and install a new set. The cost of cutters and disposable knife sets becomes cheaper as you go through more sets. If the Grizzly cutter is a brazed carbide one, you'd better plan on having it sharpened at least once during it's life with you, especially if you're going through a harder and gritty wood like oak. Sharpening itsn't a bad thing, you're just down until you get the cutter back and you need to make sure the folks sharpening the cutter remove material from all wings on the cutter evenly.

On the shaper - look for a used 1/2 or 3/4" shaper. Something like that, with a slow feed rate is fine for what you need. You don't have to be running a monster shaper to do what you want.

The reason I'd stay away from the router is longevity for 1000's of feet of milling, dust collection, noise and the hassle factor of the custom profile router bits.

Just my opinions.

Rob

[Don Abele]

John, while I can't help with the question you asked, let me ask you one. Is the profile possible with maybe multiple router bits? Kinda like Norm does so often. I know this would take longer, but if doing all this moulding is possible with a router, this may be cheaper than having a custom milled bit made. Just a thought.

Be well,

Doc

[Chris Padilla]

John,

How about a molder set-up for your TS? CMT makes one, and Magic Molder (http://www.lrhent.com/magic.htm) makes them. They will custom-grind knives for you, too. However, you may need to have a couple sets of knives ground depending on the width of your molding.

Also, you will need to most likely do some cove cutting on your TS. This is where you run your piece at an angle across the blade to cut coves into your molding. The molding cutter can also assist with this two but a plain old TS blade can work as well. There are all sorts of tricks. Check out here at John Lucas' site regarding use of CMT's cove cutter:
http://www.woodshopdemos.com/cmt-cv-1.htm

Some planers can be set with appropriately ground knives to do this job as well.

[John Scarpa]

John

Fine Woodworking router bit comparison. Kinda old but relevant.

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00045.asp

The top performer also makes custom router bits to your specs. See this link:

http://www.routerbits.com/cgi-routerbits/loadpage.cgi?1074128916_32364+custom.htm

I have no affiliation.

Good luck!

John

[John Scarpa]

John,
I also found out these are Norm's router bits of choice.

A confession of sorts: When I think of 1000's of feet of moulding, I have to admit I'd rather limit my project to buying it and installing it. :D Just my preference for the home shop.

I suppose if you broke the project down into sub projects of something like one room at a time it may be more manageable.
John

[Dave Avery]

John,

I agree with Rob's general comments about the difficulty of using a router and bits. One option he didn't mention is a moulder. The tooling can be ground to any profile and easily resharpened. Woodmaster has a pretty good deal on their 12" machine now, though since you've recently bought a planer and a sander, you probably want to do something else. Another alternative is a used W&H unit. Good luck. Dave.

[John Miliunas]

Gentlemen, LOTS of great points and pointers!

Rob, I had definitely considered a small shaper (even LOML mentioned it!), though I hadn't considered the power feed. Good idea! Still, I'm kinda' hoping I can get by a bit cheaper, though the notion of a new tool IS inspiring. :D And, around here, it would almost *have* to be a new one, as the used market is about as dry as the Sahara. Previous searches for similar shop tools has yielded nothing or heavily abused HF-quality stuff! Ick.

Doc, in my search for the profile, I've looked at both, using a part of a more intricate bit or, like you mention, multiple bits. No luck, thus far.

John S., you've provided me with a true-blue vendor, who may be able to deliver what I'm asking for! I may be dropping them a line! Thanks.

Chris & Dave, you guys struck upon something I had not even thought about! Gee, imagine that: A moulder for making moulding! Who'd a thunk! :rolleyes: (OK, you can cyberslap me now!) Me thinks that might be the best option to check into, at the moment. I've already got a machine intended for heavy-duty and continual use (cabinet TS) and it should be pretty safe, as well.

Thanks so very much, guys! My search continues, but now you've given me much hope where before there was little!

[Jim Becker]

The Magic Molder previously referenced is awesome...my cabinetmaker neighbor has one and it performs beautifully. However, he largely uses it for making custom bead board and other things that involve larger flat stock. The effective width it can cut is still limited to about the width of a fully stacked dado set.

For moldings...he uses a Williams and Hussy molding machine. (Norm has one of those, too...) Perhaps you can find someone local who has one and work out a deal.

Otherwise, doing the built up method might be the most practical for producing your own stock, but it's a lot of work to do a whole house worth of material! What's your time worth?

[John Miliunas]

The Magic Molder previously referenced is awesome...my cabinetmaker neighbor has one and it performs beautifully. However, he largely uses it for making custom bead board and other things that involve larger flat stock. The effective width it can cut is still limited to about the width of a fully stacked dado set.

What's your time worth?

I was just checking out the Magic Molder. Hmmmm...If they can custom cut knives for me, it may be the best option, thus far! I haven't checked all the specs on the MM, yet (NO, not MiniMax!), but I did measure the width of the profile for this particular piece and the cutting width would only be 1". The rest of the body is plain, old straight. I guess it would largely depend on what they would charge me to custom make the cutters. If it starts getting up in the range of a shaper, well then it's a no-brainer. Need to make some inquiries, me thinks!

And my time? Hmmm...Guess that largely depends on who you're asking. If it's the LOML, well..... :rolleyes: Seriously, I'm not sure that's the big issue, as I spend the bulk of my "free" time out in the shop, anyway. I guess that's one of the reasons she doesn't mind my spending the $$ for tools. (Beats sitting down at the local saloon!) We have a good arrangement that way: I enjoy the work and she enjoys giving it to me! :D :cool:

[Rob Russell]

Whether you're going with a Magic Moulder head for your saw or a shaper, look into a power feeder. There are 2 reasons.

The first is consistency and quality of the cut. No matter now good you are at hand feeding, you can't match the consistency of a stock feeder.

The other is productivity. Once your machine is setup and ready to go, it mostly becomes a matter of having stock infeed area, outfeed area and playing "stuff and catch" with the machine.

On a shaper, especially higher horsepower ones, the feeder also acts as a way of keeping body parts away from 10 pounds of spinning metal. The first time you hit "Start" on a big shaper with good-sized cutter on it is guaranteed to produce a "pucker" effect in anyone :-)

Rob

[Chris Padilla]

LOL...pucker. I still "pucker" (whince) every time I fire up my dado blade stacked at 3/4" in my TS! There is something deadly about the sound it makes!

[Ed Falis]

Hey Boss,

Hope things are going well.

I have the Magic Moulder head starter kit that comes with two profiles (but they're combo profiles, so you can mix and match parts of them. Each new profile costs ~$70. They total width is on the order of 3/4" to 1". I did some nice molding for a cabinet last week so that it would sort of match the native moldings of the house (but only sort of).

It's a pretty neat enhancement to the TS (check out Tolpin's or Cliffe's TS books for more ideas). Keep a search on ebay - I got mine for less than half of list there.

That said, for a bunch of molding, there's nothing like a moulder. I picked up an old Foley-Belsaw planer/molder for a few hundred bucks, but I was lucky. I haven't done any molding with it yet because I was able to make do with what I had without getting knives (which are readily available).

Look for used Foley-Belsaw (these were labelled Powermatic and Craftsman too), Williams-Hussey or Woodmaster products. If you get lucky, you can replace that lunchbox planer at the same time.

- Ed

[Ed Falis]

... I guess it would largely depend on what they would charge me to custom make the cutters...

Check these guys. They're one of the least expensive I've seen. They will do custom plugs.

http://www.magnate.net/products/lrh/magic_molder_plugs.htm

- Ed

[John Miliunas]

Check these guys. They're one of the least expensive I've seen. They will do custom plugs.

http://www.magnate.net/products/lrh/magic_molder_plugs.htm

- Ed

Thanks Ed! Yeah, I'm starting to lean a bit closer to the MM's. I'll have to show LOML the rundown of profiles, just in case there's a "stock" one which meets her fancy. If I can stay away from having custom ones done, I think I'd be better off.

BTW, what kind of life do you get out of a set of cutters with that outfit? That would have to weigh in on the decision, as well. :cool:

[Chris Padilla]

Double Thanks, Ed! Wow! Almost $100 off the Advanced starter set and the plugs are much cheaper! Great find. It is funny, this place (SMC) costs and saves me money!! Irony abounds! :p

I've been eyeballing the MM for almost a year now but it is getting the the point now with my EC starting up that I will want some custom maple and walnut moldings done for the room.

Another idea for a set of knives, looking at CMTs molding cutter, is to pick up a set of round P-19s for cove cutting. That should closely mimic what CMT came up with. I don't know how deep into a piece of wood one can go but they look like just the ticket.

[Wendell Wilkerson]

I just wanted to add my endorsement of Magnate. I've most of my router bits from these guys and I've been very happy with the product.

On moulding the subject, I almost hate to suggest this since it might be considered anti-tool buying heresy but have you considered having custom moulding made. I found a lumber yard here in Dallas that had a large selection of moulding profiles and got some cherry moulding made for a bookcase project. I know it not as much fun as buying a new tool and for the amount of moulding you're looking for it might actually be cheaper to do it yourself. For me personal, making that much trim just seems like a tedious job.

Wendell