Hobbs meter for lasers- good idea?

[Scott Shepherd]

When I was younger and had more money, I decided to take up flying and work towards my private pilot's license. On the planes, they had a meter called a Hobbs meter. It only ran when the engine ran, and that's what your hours were logged off of, as well as what you paid for.

In light of recent conversations about warranties, does it seem logical to anyone else that the warranty on laser tubes should be based off of actual run time instead of calendar days?

Is it right that warranties are the same for someone who uses their machine once a week for a few hours in a basement, versus someone who runs their machine 10 hours a day all year? In reality, I can easily see 1500-2000 actual laser firing on time in a production environment. Take that situation and compare it to the guy who probably doesn't have 100 hours of laser firing time in a year. Should those machines be treated equally?

Seems a better way would be to set some limits for warranty based on usage instead of calendar days. Sure, time would be a factor, as you probably wouldn't want to leave a warranty open for 10 years, but doesn't it seem reasonable for someone who uses their laser a lot less to expect some flexibility in calendar days when they have issues? Or is that completely unreasonable to expect?

It seems a very easy thing to add to the controls of the system. It could easily be hidden and called up at will (and not resettable by user).

[Nigel Morgan]

This would seem to be a very good idea to me, you base the price of a second hand car on its milage.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Good idea but I don't think it would apply to the laser side of the machine. I was told that the laser has a shelf life of about 7 years whether you use it or not. I guess there is some leaking factor that is calculated in. This was what I found when I researched my purchase back in 2001 -2002. I do not know if they have managed to seal it off 100% or if the leakage still factors in. Maybe someone else can chime in with an update.

[Mike Null]

The Trotec Job Control software records all jobs and as long as you don't remove the file it will remain.

[Keith Outten]

Concerning CO2 Tubes the majority of failures are not due to loss of gas it is the failure of the electronics. The advertisements you see that indicate 20 or 30 thosand hours of tube life are based on the life of the gas, not the electronics. This is how it was explained to me when I questioned Epilog.

An hour meter simular to the ones installed on industrial equipment would be easy and inexpensive to add to a laser engraver....but you will most likely never see one.

.

[Larry Bratton]

Keith:
And one must remember - ALL electronics are doomed to failure, sooner or later. Machines that are turned on and off frequently tend to fail more often than machines that are on all the time. I rarely turn my computers off and they are on 24/7. They last and last. If I understand correctly, the "stress" put on electronic components by turning them off and on frequently is detrimental. I however, don't leave my laser on 24/7. When I am finished running it, I turn it off, mainly because it's a bit noisy and we do other things in the space where it's located. I probably would if it were not for that.

[Mike Null]

Larry

I'm far from being an expert here but I don't agree with your statement. Perhaps a televison set is the best example of an item which may be turned on and off several times a day. Yet they last almost until we tire of them or new technology makes them obsolete.

In the case of the laser, even if it's on but not running I believe the tube is off.

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Hey Mike,
I think the laser is on if the machine is on from what I remember. I think the tube is on because it keeps the laser excited or something like that. I shut mine off when not in use. If you look at the back of the laser you will see the light that I think indicates juice to the laser. I think I hear electrical current running. Which one of the laser manufactures that post here will be the first to confirm or correct this theory? Remember I am just recalling what I briefly learned 5+ years ago in a training conversation, so I could be wrong.
Thanks,(77)

[Gary Hair]

I think the laser is on if the machine is on from what I remember. I think the tube is on because it keeps the laser excited or something like that.

I think this varies by machine/manufacturer. My GCC/LaserPro/Pinnacle goes into sleep mode after about 10-15 minutes. When it "wakes up" again it takes a bit for the laser to start firing again. I found this out when I sent a job to it, then woke it up, and hit start immediately. The laser didn't fire for a little bit. Now, I wake it up, send the print job and then hit start - works every time.

This leads me to believe that there is a minimal amount of electronics running when it's asleep - definately not the laser but I don't know what is running.

Gary

[Thad Nickoley]

It seems that the hour meter may not work since it seems that a lot of posts talk about how often they run at 3-5 speed while vectoring. I usually run much higher speeds since I do mostly engraving and not much cutting.

[Mike Null]

Michael

You may be right. I was basing my statement on the laser light indicator which changes from flashing (stand by) to steady when laser power is on. I may be misunderstanding the flashing stand by light as the laser being off.

[Rob Bosworth]

This might not apply, because it is based on old experience. But most lasers use a trickle current to keep them energized. The trickle current is sent through the laser to keep the photons excited, but not too much. If the trickle setting is set correctly, the laser will "fire" quicker when the photons are in an energized state.

I am not sure how to respond to the above comments on the need to be able to determine how much a laser system is run to determine if a system's manufacture extends the warranty for some, but not for others. These laser engraving systems have been designed to be used. From what we have seen, they do not care for not being turned on and run. Seals dry out. Lubrication collects dust and dirt, and it tends to get "harder" with age and lack of use. Electronic components have dust and debris gather around them, holding heat in when they are finally run. I would guess that the gas does some stratification in the laser if not run for extended periods of time. (This is a pure guess on my part. I remember back in the old days when you had to use high pressure cylinders of either mixed gas or manifold three gasses together to feed your laser. Every once in a while, we had to unhook a cylinder and roll it around to remix the gasses.)

I guess the only thing I can compare not using a machine versus using a machine would be an automobile. We have all heard of the guy (or gal) who finds a 25 or 30 year old car that is parked in a garage and only has 19,000 miles on it. Oh what a find! But what happens to most of these gems. They don't run worth a hoot. You spend more time replacing seals and gaskets than actually driving the car. The cars are all gummed up. The lubrication in the car is all hard a crusty. They look great. They usually drive like $#!^, and the interiors smell like mice.

[Don Atkinson]

All materials are porous to some degree. The laser tube is no different. Over time, gases leak in both directions, atmospheric gasses seep into the tube and the laser gas mixure seeps out. The shelf life of the laser is calculated based on this seepage.

[Scott Shepherd]

Maybe a 2,000 hour/36 month warranty would be a type of model, like the automobile market.

If you are the one who uses the laser on a limited basis, then time would play into it and you'd have a 36 month long warranty. However, if you're using the thing all day, everyday, then you'd end up with about a 1 year warranty, which is what most seem to come with now.

Just a topic for discussion. I don't suspect anyone's going to change anything based on a forum discussion, but who knows?

All seems logical to me, so that's why it'll probably never happen :)

[Mike Null]

There is no reason for us to stop hammering the manufacturers on this warranty issue. Just a short time back the warranty was three years. My first Universal had a 36 month warranty--good that it did as the tube went out in the 36th month. My Trotec, purchased a year ago, has a 36 month warranty.

We are paying entirely too much money for this equipment not to get at least 36 months on the tube.

I don't think it will take too long before the Chinese realize they can make a big dent in this market by increasing their warranty. It seems rather elementary when the biggest reason not to buy Chinese is that unknown dealing with reliablity of their product. Extending the warranty is a quick fix for that.

Look what the Koreans did with their automobile warranties. Now they are a factor.

[Richard Rumancik]

Although I think highly of Synrad as a company, their reliability and warranty information is confusing. For the 48 series laser tubes they say:

"The all-metal sealed tube design and proprietary manufacturing process ensure high gas purity, essential for long operating lifetimes. With over 70,000 Synrad lasers operating worldwide, Synrad is the only CO2 laser manufacturer that can boast of proven operating lifetimes in excess of 45,000 hours (at which time, a simple a and inexpensive gas refill returns the laser to full operation)."


This statement suggests that the electronics will outlast the gas, but elsewhere I have been told the opposite is true. They don't actually say that 45,000 is typical, or for the longest one ever in operation. A mean-time-between-failure number would be useful.

The 45,000 hours represents 5 years of operation running 24 hours per day. Most lasers do not see this kind of duty cycle. Yet the Synrad warranty is only one year from date of purchase. (8000 hours 24/7 duty cycle, or 2500 hours 10/5 duty cycle = 50 hour week).

So why only a one-year warranty if you have such high confidence in the life, with the expectation of such few actual operational hours?

I don't know which manufacturers are using Synrad in their systems; they were used in the Mercury units and some others. But I don't think any of the tube manufacturers are really achieving these kinds of lifetimes in practice.

It would seem to me that longer tube warranties would be reasonable. I was lucky that I had a 3 year on mine as it failed at 2.5 years but I think that has changed.

Scott, maybe things won't change but a collective voice is better that one voice to get changes (whether it be warranty or technical changes). If I was manufacturing laser systems, I certainly would follow the forums and see what is of concern to users.

[Keith Outten]

I will definately look at the Chinese laser when I make my next purchase. The 5 grand purchase price makes them almost throw away compared to the mid range American made machines. If it lasts a couple of years it probably paid for itself.

As more look at the less expensive machines it will have an impact on all of the manufacturers, the high priced companies will offer long warranties or lose sales. The down side is that cheap laser engravers will drive customers to purchase their own machines so there will be less work for the traditional engraving busnesses. Just a thought.

.

[Mark Winlund]

The down side is that cheap laser engravers will drive customers to purchase their own machines so there will be less work for the traditional engraving busnesses. Just a thought.

.


The same thing happened with vinyl cutters. We bought our first in 1984... it was a converted pen plotter. We made a fortune with it... even the sign painters would come to our shop and buy our lettering. It would save them so much time versus hand lettering that it made no sense for them to do it themselves.

Now, it seems that everyone has one in their garage... the profit has long been gone for that technology. We do it mostly as a convenience for our customers, now.

Today, lasers are hot. Give it a few years, and people will be competing with each other for nickels... I wonder what the next hot technology will be?

I still fire up the pantograph now and then, but it's very rare. In 1975, I made a living with it.


Mark

[Scott Shepherd]

One possible thing that is happening is something I had suggested to me on a business quote. I had a request to come up with something that had some electronics in it, all in all, it was probably $5,000 worth of equipment, all off the shelf, brand name stuff. The guy helping me with the quote said "get the 3 year warranty and offer 1 year to the client, that way if it fails after one year and before 4, then you get the replacement for free and you get to charge the customer full price".

Well, I must admit, I felt like I was talking to a snake oil salesman, but in looking into it, it's a very common business practice. I'd be willing to bet that that type of thing is at the core of tube warranties. Probably get a 3 year from the maker of the tube, and it's all sold with one year.

Just a guess.

[Mike Null]

Or the laser manufacturers are buying without warranty but with specified failure rates and remedies built into their purchase contract.

[Bill Cunningham]

The cheapest laser printer you can buy, 'still' has a key sequence command that will display the number of pages it's printed since new.. Other equipment has similar key sequences to display the total operating hours.. Seeing that EVERY job has a running time displayed, I find it hard to believe that this simple function has not been incorporated into every laser out there, by totaling time and flashing the accumulation to the rom where it remembers all it's flashed settings... If punching out a key sequence, and getting a basic function like total operation time for the equipment, has not been incorporated into the firmware, then the firmware was either designed by a moron, or someone is being less than truthful about what information can be made available by using key code sequences!:mad:

[Rodne Gold]

Why on earth would the manufacturers implement a system that would increase their warrantee liability or predictability ? The std time based (X months) works well for them in terms of them knowing exactly when it expires and so on.

Having said that , Roland , who supply my digital printer warrant the machine for x amount of time but the print heads supplied by Epson are warranted in so many billion dots. Our machine was out of warrantee and one of the heads failed , roland got a report on how many dots the heads had fired and charged us on a pro rata basis to replace the head.
In our case , we view the laser as a production tool and want it running as long as possible from day 1 and a run time warrantee would most likely seriously compromise us and other folk who regard time when the laser isnt working as money going down the tubes , so to speak.
At any rate , i regard tube repairs as a total rip off as the parts required are generally not that expensive. What seems to be the expense is "tuning" the laser after parts replacement.
The other problem is that laser operators regard the cost of the capital equipment as the barrier to entry and thus their competitive edge , but this should not be the case , the product you make with the laser should drive sales , not the mere fact you can afford a laser and the guy down the road cant.
Its the same with Vinyl cutters , in the old days , just cos you could cut a vinyl letter , you got the business , nowdays your creativity in the signage and use of its output determines whether you do good or not. Even if lasers went down to 1/5th of their cost , there will still be folk out there making very good money out of them , in the face of stiff competiton if they have considered their business model.
IMHO radical drops in affordability is a good thing , as more machine sales will drive the development of better and more efficient models and alternative suppliers.
Just reading this thread should be an indication that lasers are going the same way as , lets say , vinyl cutters and thus the time is now to change your business model to encompass this fact.

[Richard Rumancik]

The problem I see with a "Hobbs meter" is that it could be easily detached giving a wrong reading. Not than any laser user on this forum would do that, but it is a reason that the laser manufacturers would not accept it as a reliable indication of running hours.

The problem with writing to the flash memory is that the flash is on the mainboard, not in the tube. So you have a bit of a disconnect here. How do you ensure that the main board and tube are always in sync?

I suppose you really need a chip (or meter) build right into the laser tube. My HP laser printer cartridge has a chip on it which will record pages printed. The data stays with the cartridge, not inside the printer. It might have added a few dollars cost for HP to do this. From the laser tube manufacturer's point of view, I agree with Rodne - what is their incentive? They need a good reason to add cost to implement a device that would record elapsed time.

[Bill Cunningham]

This would work both ways. The manufac. could prove a machine had a zillion hours before failure, and some users could prove 'their' machine failed in short hours.. As for keeping the flash in sinc with the tube replacement this would be as simple as it used to be with the older laser printers that had a replaceable drum. You reset the counter after you change the part.. I 'still' say it's a hidden feature of virtually all current lasers, available to the tech that services them..

[Michael Kowalczyk]

The Trotec Job Control software records all jobs and as long as you don't remove the file it will remain.


Hey Mike,
The job control goes another step further. If you look at the information section on the view menu, it will tell you how long the engraving machine has been on and connected to the PC. Then below that it tells you how many hours the laser was actually running. Mine was around 405 hours and a few minutes for the machine and 185 hours and a few minutes for the laser itself. I changed computers and upgraded from W2000 to XP pro so I could run the new job control. Not sure but I think I lost the meter from the laptop when I upgraded. Although you can not check history unless you are connected to the laser. I wonder if it is stored on the engraver and just accessed via Job Control???

Many files that I backed up were not compatible from 6.xx to 7.49 so I had to manually transfer the material settings. I do like the sub categories much better. Just thought I would throw this in because it does keep count of use and idle time. Much easier than trying to add up all the 17 to 32 second jobs:D.

[Mike Null]

Michael

I wasn't aware of that. When you say you had to manually transfer material files what do you mean? That's been one of my pet peeves because I've lost my material settings a couple of times.

I know there must be a way to back them up but tech support has not been able to help on this one.
I can check history without being connected.

A word to the wise--don't add to your material files in the driver window---do it from Job Control.

I don't have the option you're referring to. Where is it?

[Dean Carpenter]

Hi Michael,

The system usage log of your Trotec is stored on the electronics of your machine, not on the PC. With older versions this can be overwitten when a new firmware is applied to reset it.

Rob, the laser is 'kept warm' during idle times by tickle. Tickle allows the laser to react faster on start-up. It also has a big influence on the overall lifetime of the tube.

Trickle is not used on a laser. Trickle is something that happens to us when we drink too much warm English beer!

Dean

[Mike Null]

Dean

Are you saying then that the system usage log and the job history, which is available from the pc, are unrelated?

[Rob Bosworth]

So aren't you saying, my laser has a one year warranty and unlimited hours? I guess I don't see what is wrong with that.

My Ford truck comes with a 3 year or 36,000 mile warranty. Try to get it fixed at 37,000 miles, 18 months after you buy it. The service manager will probably hurt himslef laughing when you ask.

The manufacture has no control over how much you use your laser system. I am sure that they all have customers who have their machines ON for 5,000 hours or greater per year. I will bet they do not complain when their production machine needs new belts and bearings and they are supplied under warranty.