Odd question: Help mounting a 4'x8' rock climbing wall in my living room

[Luke McFadden]

It's been a while since I've posted, but I'm needing help from the SMC hivemind. Here is what I'm working with (problems with the pictures, they are at the bottom).

http://lh6.google.com/lltmcfadden/Rn7naouVI5I/AAAAAAAAB68/BW6SF4IKGCs/IMG_6804.JPG
So the wall itself is very simple. I'm going to round all the edges and texture paint it. And my 128 t-nuts should be in on Monday. But, I want to mount this in my living room in a semi-permanent and if possible, adjustable way. The wall it is going on is an interior wall: drywall, sprayed texture, and paint. My living room has a vaulted ceiling, so the ceiling line against the wall is a hair over 8'.

So I have two ways that I would like to accomplish this, and they are in order of priority.

(1) Simply mounting it to the wall in such a way that it won't move. If it needs to be leaning up against the wall a little, that is fine too, but I need it as flat as possible.

(2) I'd really like to be able to mount it flat, but be able to lean the top of the wall out, so I could have a medium overhang to work with. I'm really not sure how to do this simply without destroying the textured wall.

I'm moving within a year, so I want it to stay simple, and to do as little damage to the wall as possible. I don't mind patching some screw holes at all. But I don't want to have to replace the drywall, paint, and re-texture it.

I've had several thoughts about how to attach it to the wall. (1) Screwing some 2'x4's to the wall that would fit right inside of the outside frame of the rock wall, and then bolt them together. My mind keeps coming back to this idea.

I'm open to any thoughts and ideas. I know that the ideal way would be to build onto the existing wall, but that just wasn't an option for this project right now. This is primarily for my son (under 50 pounds), but my wife and I (I'm just under 200 pounds) will probably use it a lot as well.

If I need to take some more pictures I'd be happy to.

Thanks!

Luke

[Brad Naylor]

This is primarily for my son (under 50 pounds), but my wife and I (I'm just under 200 pounds).



Your WIFE'S going to let you put a climbing wall in the living room???!!

[nic obie]

Your WIFE'S going to let you put a climbing wall in the living room???!!

Heshe

:eek:

[Luke McFadden]

Your WIFE'S going to let you put a climbing wall in the living room???!!

We are young! And it was her idea to bring it in!

[George Summers]

I know what a rock climbing wall is, I understand you are young, I understand that your wife is in accord with the idea, but, I don't understand how you climb an eight foot tall rock wall. At 6' I can reach the top of the 8'. By the time my feet get two foot off of the bottom, my head will hit the wall. How do you climb any further up than that?

George

[Lars Thomas]

Moving within a year and installing a rock climbing wall sounds like a bad combo to me.

[Luke McFadden]

The goal of the wall isn't to scale it as fast as possible, but rather to train oneself. There are 128 different holes for various holds. So, I usually start out rather low, and work my way up and down. I know it sounds odd, and it can be extremely easy, but climbing up and down it with really small holds is very difficult.

This isn't the ideal situation, but it is all we have for right now, when we move we plan on expanding the wall, but right now it is all we have.

Anyone have any suggestions for mounting this?

[John Lucas]

If you are going to do it at all, create a separate wall. Studs on 12" centers. Make the wall 4' X 8' and it can rest on the floor and be mounted in some easy way to the real wall and you can make it hinged so you can have different angles. I suggest you keep it as an accessory to the real wall with minimal "damage" to the real wall.

[Don Abele]

Two years ago when I bought my 50" plasma, I did research on the pull-out strength of lag bolts. I found some data from the American Wood Council that had pull-out strength for 3/8" lag bolts in standard joists. Amazingly, it was over 200 pounds per inch of actual threads in the stud. Additional points were that they needed to be used with flat washers to distribute the pull over a larger surface area and the bolt needed to be centered in the stud.

In your application, I would use 3" x 3/8" lag bolts in each of the three vertical studs you have on your rock wall. To the lag bolts I would use large fender washers and attach a 3/8" thick chain to all three. On your wall, I would mount three 3" x 3/8" eye hooks into the studs on the wall. Hook the chain onto the eyes - that should give more than 1200 pounds of pull-out strength. And with the chain you can adjust the out-angle to give you an over hang.

I can't think of a way to attach a hinge at the bottom, but you defintely need something to anchor the bottom and stop it from sliding side to side or kicking out. Maybe box the bottom in with some 2x4's to act as stops, but still allow it to angle out from the top.

Disclaimer - this is only my two cents, and that's all you'll get from me if it fails and your wall squishes you like a grape :p

Hope this helps - Be well,

Doc

[Dave Morris]

Lemmee get this straight... you're going to be climbing up this thing in various positions, using foot/hand holds held on by T-nuts imbedded in that plywood? Meaning all your body weight will be supported by one or two T-nuts as you change positions?

How thick is that plywood, what grade and how many layers is it, and what size T-nuts are you using? (scratches head thinking Luke is gunna land on his if the plywood isn't strong enough)

If you are bound and determined to do this, here's one way. I'd make dang sure I had a thick piece of 8" wide oak to serve as a two-sided French Cleat, anchored to at least three wall studs using 3/8" lag screws and washers, two screws to each stud so the oak is supported across it's width as well as it's length. That way you only have to fill small holes in the drywall when it's time to move. Capturing the oak cleat from both the top and bottom sides will not only keep the plywood from falling off the wall, but also from "lifting" off the cleat as you changed positions. You'll need to add correspondingly strong components to the backside of the plywood climbing wall to capture the cleat, positioned so the wall is fixed in place but still resting on the floor. Top piece is fixed, bottom piece can slide up and down in slots cut into the plywood. Climbing wall is set on top of the cleat using the top piece, and the bottom piece slides up to capture the cleat, then tightened using bolts and fender washers to spread the load on the plywood. Just be sure to add a couple lags to the studs, and through the plywood, near the bottom of the wall so the whole thing is solid top to bottom. Overkill? Not if you're planning on hanging in a position where, if this thing comes off the wall, you land on your head.

To adjust the angle of the wall from straight, just make whatever "base" you design to hold the plywood to the cleat a few inches thick. That will kick the top part of the plywood out from the wall. Make a couple of them of different thicknesses so you can unscrew the climbing wall, change "bases" and screw the wall back in place at a different angle. PITA? Maybe, but it will be solid to the wall each time, and give you a good, stable place to grip with hands and feet.

Actually, putting up a climbing wall sounds like exactly the kind of thing I'd have done in our first apartment almost 30 years ago, if we'd have known about such things. Sounds like fun. I just hope the builder nailed the studs in that interior wall nice and strong at the top and bottom when he built the place, or you may have the whole wall come crashing down. (don't laugh, I've seen walls that only had a single nail on each end of the stud. Don't ask me how they passed inspection)

[Per Swenson]

Actually, putting up a climbing wall sounds like exactly the kind of thing I'd have done in our first apartment almost 30 years ago, if we'd have known about such things.




30 years ago? In my case, I just find that hilarious.

Only because by day my climbing was commercial construction,

and by night out the third story balcony, chased by her dad with a shovel in

his hand. Never mind high hedge hurdles...

Anyway, back to the topic.

Lot a wisdom in what Mr. Lucas sez.

Per

[Luke McFadden]

If you are going to do it at all, create a separate wall. Studs on 12" centers. Make the wall 4' X 8' and it can rest on the floor and be mounted in some easy way to the real wall and you can make it hinged so you can have different angles. I suggest you keep it as an accessory to the real wall with minimal "damage" to the real wall.

This is what I have done. The pictures show that I have a 4'x8' wall already built. I'd be interested on your thoughts as far as mounting it and mounting it with a hinge.


Lemmee get this straight... you're going to be climbing up this thing in various positions, using foot/hand holds held on by T-nuts imbedded in that plywood? Meaning all your body weight will be supported by one or two T-nuts as you change positions?

Yes, I'm using 3/4" ACX with 3/8x16 4 prong t-nuts. I've been testing it out for some time in the garage, and this is how most people build theirs.



If you are bound and determined to do this, here's one way. I'd make dang sure I had a thick piece of 8" wide oak to serve as a two-sided French Cleat, anchored to at least three wall studs using 3/8" lag screws and washers, two screws to each stud so the oak is supported across it's width as well as it's length. That way you only have to fill small holes in the drywall when it's time to move. Capturing the oak cleat from both the top and bottom sides will not only keep the plywood from falling off the wall, but also from "lifting" off the cleat as you changed positions. You'll need to add correspondingly strong components to the backside of the plywood climbing wall to capture the cleat, positioned so the wall is fixed in place but still resting on the floor. Top piece is fixed, bottom piece can slide up and down in slots cut into the plywood. Climbing wall is set on top of the cleat using the top piece, and the bottom piece slides up to capture the cleat, then tightened using bolts and fender washers to spread the load on the plywood. Just be sure to add a couple lags to the studs, and through the plywood, near the bottom of the wall so the whole thing is solid top to bottom. Overkill? Not if you're planning on hanging in a position where, if this thing comes off the wall, you land on your head.

To adjust the angle of the wall from straight, just make whatever "base" you design to hold the plywood to the cleat a few inches thick. That will kick the top part of the plywood out from the wall. Make a couple of them of different thicknesses so you can unscrew the climbing wall, change "bases" and screw the wall back in place at a different angle. PITA? Maybe, but it will be solid to the wall each time, and give you a good, stable place to grip with hands and feet.

I've never used a french cleat before, so that took me a moment to visualize. I actually really like this idea. Thanks for your suggestion.




In your application, I would use 3" x 3/8" lag bolts in each of the three vertical studs you have on your rock wall. To the lag bolts I would use large fender washers and attach a 3/8" thick chain to all three. On your wall, I would mount three 3" x 3/8" eye hooks into the studs on the wall. Hook the chain onto the eyes - that should give more than 1200 pounds of pull-out strength. And with the chain you can adjust the out-angle to give you an over hang.


This sounds the easiest, but if it is at an angle, it needs to be immobile. Training on this will be jerky at times. So, whatever the distance of the chain, I'd hate to make the wall move straight up, and then come back down into the angled position with my 200 pound body plus the weight of the completed wall (300 pounds) put that much stress on the system. Well, and that it would probably throw me on the floor.

I'll have "crash pads" to protect us from falling, and my son will be repelled from a safe place. So, if the wall should fall, he would have a good chance of swinging out of the way.

I'm working on some drawings to show an idea I've been thinking of. I'll post them soon.

L

[Luke McFadden]

Here are the pictures I've got so far. This will not allow the wall to be angled. If I really wanted to angle the wall with this method, I could build some triangle frames to bolt to the wall instead of a single board. I'd much rather have something that would easily allow angle adjustment thought.

Attached below is what I have so far.

The first image shows the boards mounted to the house wall, and the rock wall with frame.

The second images shows the rock wall attached to the boards on the wall with bolts.

Any thoughts?

As far as the design of the boards on the wall. I was thinking about attaching a 2'x4' to the wall on its 1.5" side. Meaning that the board would stick out from the wall 3.5" since that is the direction of the boards on the rock wall. Would this be ok? Or should I construct the wall mounts differently?

Thanks, Luke.

[George Summers]

Me again - Maybe its my old age brain or maybe I'm just plain stupid, but, I still cannot visualize how you can climb higher than two feet off the floor on this thing.

George

[Steve Clardy]

Three lag bolts with washers.

Patch three holes when you move.;)

[Dave MacArthur]

Luke,
I had a similar climbing wall which I built (built 3 of them, 2 for friends), and just sold it last year. I have a ton of pics, but they are on my old computer boxed up... I'll try to get them, if you want full up design pics. Let me preface my remarks with some qualifications. In 1992, I began climbing in Texas, and travelling to Hueco Tanks during the winter. While there, I stayed at a "climbing house" owned by Todd Skinner and his wife Amy, who you may have heard of in climbing circles. The house was built specifically as a rock climbing "hostel", with numerous climbing walls inside. My design came from working with him on theirs. It is PORTABLE FOR MOVING, gives a much better workout than a vertical wall, doesn't require any support from your house structure, and you can modify your present wall to something similar. Working out on that wall alone allowed me to reach 5.11c level.


Here are several points for you:
1. DON'T MOUNT IT. Instead, make legs for the top, and SUPPORT it. There are many reasons for this.
2. A vertical climbing wall of that height is not sufficient for you to get a good workout OR improve. The problem is your fingertips will give out much much earlier than your major muscle groups, unless the wall is mounted in an over-hang configuration of about 30 degrees or more, you'll have sore fingers but no workout in 10 minutes on a vertical wall that high.
3. You can reinforce the back of the wall with some 2x6 running vertically, then be sure the top has a 2x4 across it for reinforcement.
4. Make some legs out of 2x4 mounted at 90 degrees to each other, 8 feet high or so, and bolt them to the TOP outside edges of the wall, so they can swing/collapse along the sides of the wall.
5. Mount a 2 foot high "footer" across the bottom of your wall (mine was a separate piece which bolted onto the 2x6 supports at the bottom). Now you have something like (seen from the edge):
.../
./
|
Where the top 2 lines are your existing wall, and the bottom is the 2' high piece as wide as the wall, bolted to the bottom.
6. You bolt the bottom on, then you lift up the top edge to the ceiling, allowing the attached "legs to swing down into place to hold it up. Then you drill appropriate holes in the legs and sides of the wall, about 4 feet away from the pivot point on both, and bolt on a 2x4 support, so it makes a triangle. This will make the thing rock solid and steady.
7. Now you have the best of all worlds:
- a wall that is hard enough (overhang) that your muscles get a good workout before your tips give out.
- a wall that forces you to learn weight placement and balance due to it's overhang
- a wall that can totally use the main portion you already built (very similar to mine, it's perfect for it!)
- a wall that is hard enough you won't outgrow it in 1 month. You can adjust the heightangle by tilting the legs or modding them too.
- PORTABLE! You just unbolt it when done, fold up the legs, unbolt the bottom, and ship it. I moved with the military 4 times with that climbing wall, and I could put the thing up by myself as well as take it down.
- No hassles with messing up your house!
- it fits in a garage bay or in a room, just load some old mattresses and carpet padding underneath, buyable off craigslist anywhere for 50$.


I know it's kind of hard to visualize without pics, so I'm going to try to unpack my old computer and get them posted for you. Everyone I ever met in the climbing community, whether they had their own wall or not, liked the wall so good that they wanted one, which is why I ended up making several.

I hope I'm not throwing a wrench in your plans, but I am absolutely convinced that the 30-45 degree over-hung wall on support legs is the way to go. At one point I had my 3-car garage completely "wallified" in 2 bays, walls and ceiling and this thing, and ran climbing clinics in Del Rio Texas on the big 160 foot high limestone at the Rio Grande/Pecos river juncture. Everyone started out on the "vertical" walls, but within weeks their skills/fingers let them move on to the over-hang, and no one ever went back.

Good luck, I'll post when I get the pics online.
Dave

[Bill Marcheck]

Luke,

Finally I can contribute something on this forum!

Typically you would want a wall that short to be overhanging. I've got a small one in a spare bedroom, it overhangs about 40 degrees. This makes the length about 10 feet or so given my ceiling height. Dead vertical becomes too easy or you end up using holds too small which is hard on your fingers tendons and ligaments.

If you need it to fold flat you could make an A frame that would fold up against the wall, then you could pull the legs out to increase the angle. My first one was totally freestanding with posts at the corner, but it was 10 foot wide so it was too heavy to change the angle.

The other thing you can do for an overhanging wall is to put a 2 x 4 on the wall opposite your climbing wall, then run 2 x 4s from the top of the wall across to the 2X4 on the opposite wall.

3/4" plywood is standard for commercial and municipal climbing wall everywhere I've seen.

As far as only having two feet to climb, that's why you start with your butt on the ground. When the wall overhangs 40 degress and your sitting on the ground, trust me the top is a long ways away.


Bill

[Luke McFadden]

Thanks Dave and Bill for the descriptions. I'd definitely appreciate some pictures and/or drawings so I can visualize your ideas. I like the idea of no bolt holes at all, and being able to move it around.

L

[Greg Cuetara]

George I think what luke is trying to do is moreso to build strength and technique rather than climb 100 feet up a rockface....a lot of rock climbers work out close to the ground so that they can fall and it won't be very far...they go back and forth around the board...this will build their strength up so that when they do get out in the field they can spend their time climbing up the 100 ft rock face rather than building strength and falling...

good luck to you luke..i have had a few friends build small walls and I have tried going up a few rock faces...

[Aaron Frank]

Luke,

I built 3 4 foot panels, using 2x4's and 3/4" construction grade plywood in my 7 foot tall basement about 10 years ago. I no longer have the wall -- lost it in a move some years ago. But, what I can tell you is that this is not hard.

A couple of suggestions:
First thing to do is to try and find a gym that has a bouldering cave. I'm not sure where in Arkansas you are, but there's a gym in Little Rock. Talk to manager and maybe they'll let you go in back and see the skeleton that holds everything up. You might also try doing a google search: 'build rock climbing wall,' you'll get a bunch of info.

Second, I'd build the wall with the studs 12" on center, you'll get a lot less flex in the wall this way, even over only 8 feet. (I'm 6'3" and 200lbs, so this was definitely something I was concerned with.) If you can line up the wall with the ceiling rafters you can drill into them to hold the overhaning wall up. You'd be wise to put in a supporting member midway up the wall to also help control flex. I'm going to try and attach a quick drawing I did, to show you what mine looked like. I unfortunately don't have any pics handy.


For those who don't get this idea, the point is not to get to the top, but to practice one's technique, much like a golfer would go to the driving range and work on their swing.

Good luck.
Aaron

Also I have a whole bucket of Metolius holds. PM me if you're interested.

[Robert Mayer]

Three lag bolts with washers.

Patch three holes when you move.;)

This is what you should do.

You guys are making it too complicated.

[Randy Denby]

Dave,
You reply caught my attention. You stated that you put on climbing clinics in Del Rio. I know my adopted brother is BIG into climbing and lives in Del Rio....as I did when younger. His name is Monty Stidham......ring a bell?

Thanks, Randy

[Luke McFadden]

Luke,
If you need it to fold flat you could make an A frame that would fold up against the wall, then you could pull the legs out to increase the angle. My first one was totally freestanding with posts at the corner, but it was 10 foot wide so it was too heavy to change the angle.
Bill

In thinking through some options. If I did do a free standing a-frame, how high up would my supports need to be? And how wide would my bottom support need to be? Would the diagonal sides of the A need to go all the way to the top? Are there standard ratios that are acceptable, or a good way to figure this out?

Thanks

Luke

[Dave MacArthur]

Randy, PM sent. Sorry, doesn't ring a bell-- I was stationed there at Laughlin AFB and put in climbing routes in 1991-1994, and have been gone since then.