JET or PM2000 - tough decision - what would you do

[John Hedges]

Well I am ordering a new TS tomorrow. I am thinking of the PM2000 because I would really like a riving knife, however it is a little more than I want to spend. There is also the new JET TS with a riving knife below



Which looks like a heck of a saw. When all is said and done, I can get the Jet for $200 less which would be nice (this is factoring in having to buy a mobile base for the JET and all shipping for both saws). Trouble is there is no track record for this saw and info on it is non existent since it is so new. Of course there is always the coolness factor of being one of the first to own something so new on the market.

So if it was you what would you pick?? It's killin me and I gotta decide and order tomorrow because I am selling my old TS tonight.

[William Nimmo]

I too was undecided, then I picked the sawstop. You never regret buying the best.

[John Hedges]

But I might regret my divorce.....

[Bob Feeser]

This is a link which will provide the "Fine Woodworking" magazines review of quite a few of the major table saws. Roland Johnson, the author of the review shootout, mentions that although their are a lot of hospital visits due to table saws, " and that a Riving Knife is Important, (which comes on the PM2000 as well as the Saw Stop as well as many others) Roland Johnson also says, "Talking to people who have had table saw injuries, most of them were hurt by kickback, not body contact with a spinning blade." He further states that, "KIckback generally occurs when the workpiece makes contact with the teeth from the back of the blade, the ones just coming up from under the table, those back teeth can grab the workpiece, and fire it at the operator at high velocity"

I have to say that I had a workpiece kick back at me, and it was only on a 1 hp older Sears saw, and I thank God it was a wider flat ended piece, if not I would have been impaled in my stomach. As it was the piece hit me stong enough to abrade my skin through the shirt, and cause some blood to rise to the surface. I learned the hard way that keeping the back end of the workpiece flat on the table as it is trying to exit the blade is the number one way to prevent injury. Knowing also that getting my hand on the aft side of the blade is the quickest way to lose a finger or part of a hand, so I never reach over a spinning blade. So I use a push stick, notched to hold the piece in the front, with a good long back end, that will go by the blade and hold the piece somewhat until it leaves the back of the blade. Also it is very important to not stand behind the saw directly in the fight path of a flying piece, but rather off to one side, or should I say slightly off to one side. Now that I am using the Powermatic 66 with 5hp, I don't dare take a flying workpiece on. I read of a woodworker, who all his life he used a table saw, but was impaled by a kickback piece, and while recovering from the injury, died from the infection caused by the wound.

My feelings on the choice between the 2, is that the PM2000 3hp, and the Saw Stop 3hp, which were reviewed in the Fine Woodworking article, were $2100 for the PM2000, with the extension table and legs included, and the Saw Stop was $3270 with the extension table and legs optional. (Ouch)
By the way the PM2000, and the Saw Stop both made editors choice, as well as the Grizzly G1023SL, at only $975, but mentioned the blade and miter slots were out of paralell.

My personal feeling is that I am so in love with the Powermatic 66 I am bias in even considering anything else. I could go on about that for hours, but I won't bore you. If you look at the runout etc, between the saws, you will see that their is not that much difference. When I set up my saw, I did a table repositioning to get the blade true to the miter slots, (It is only a couple of bolts to loosen, without elaborating on that) and got all settings to within a thousandth. In my opinion buy the Powermatic, and take the 1000 dollars and buy yourself their 8" jointer with the difference.

The riving knife is a good thing to have, one came with my new saw, but I do not use it, for two reasons. The Incra TS-III table saw fence, doesn't allow it in the design, but even if it did, I would prefer not to have it on. It gets in the way, and you need to remove, replace, remove, replace. With the techniques I mentioned, their really isn't any need for it, but you decide that for yourself. I did buy the board buddies, which will keep the board flat on the table, the essential thing to do to prevent kickback, but I have not installed them yet either. Norm Abrams on the NYW series mentioned that they don't have it on the table saw because it would get in the way of the camera. Yeah right. :rolleyes:
You know it is funny, because I have been ribbed about being long winded, but looking over this post, I wonder which part I should leave out. I hope what I have to say is beneficial, and thanks for putting up with my "paragraphs" :)

Anyhow, I know that their are others with their own preferences, here is a link to the PDF review at Fine Woodworking. (make sure you have the free Adobe Acrobat Reader installed to read it, if not go to http://www.Adobe.com and download it) http://www.sawstop.com/media/W184JOp46-p51.pdf
You will find it to be an interesting read, because it has quite a few table saws in it.

[Jim Becker]

I had flawless performance from the Jet LT cabinet saw I owned for nearly 7 years.

[John Shuk]

I've never heard anybody regret buying a Jet cabinet saw. But then the riving knife is a very nice feature. Worth $200 in my book. Delta has a new saw coming out in July. What will it have and what will the price be? It could br the in between. You may want to give toolnut a call 1-877-TOOLNUT(866-5688). They will pretty much always give the best price and throw in shipping. They also carry Jet, Powermatic, and Delta.
No affiliation just a happy customer.

[Steven Wilson]

Bob, your PM66 did not come with a riving knife, it comes with a splitter, the two are not the same and a riving knife is much safer. I had a PM66, just got done looking at the new PM66 manual and it doesn't come, and the trunion assembly won't support, a riving knife. If you have a saw with a riving knife there are very few reasons to remove it (molding head and possibly dato). What you are experiencing are the hassles of having a typical splitter assembly (the Beis pop out splitter for the PM66 cures those problems)

[scott spencer]

Go with whichever one you like best, but the PM2000 definitely has been a proven performer with some added features.

[David Weaver]

This is a link which will provide the "Fine Woodworking" magazines review of quite a few of the major table saws. Roland Johnson, the author of the review shootout, mentions that although their are a lot of hospital visits due to table saws, " and that a Riving Knife is Important, (which comes on the PM2000 as well as the Saw Stop as well as many others) Roland Johnson also says, "Talking to people who have had table saw injuries, most of them were hurt by kickback, not body contact with a spinning blade." He further states that, "KIckback generally occurs when the workpiece makes contact with the teeth from the back of the blade, the ones just coming up from under the table, those back teeth can grab the workpiece, and fire it at the operator at high velocity"

I have to say that I had a workpiece kick back at me, and it was only on a 1 hp older Sears saw, and I thank God it was a wider flat ended piece, if not I would have been impaled in my stomach. As it was the piece hit me stong enough to abrade my skin through the shirt, and cause some blood to rise to the surface. I learned the hard way that keeping the back end of the workpiece flat on the table as it is trying to exit the blade is the number one way to prevent injury. Knowing also that getting my hand on the aft side of the blade is the quickest way to lose a finger or part of a hand, so I never reach over a spinning blade. So I use a push stick, notched to hold the piece in the front, with a good long back end, that will go by the blade and hold the piece somewhat until it leaves the back of the blade. Also it is very important to not stand behind the saw directly in the fight path of a flying piece, but rather off to one side, or should I say slightly off to one side. Now that I am using the Powermatic 66 with 5hp, I don't dare take a flying workpiece on. I read of a woodworker, who all his life he used a table saw, but was impaled by a kickback piece, and while recovering from the injury, died from the infection caused by the wound.

My feelings on the choice between the 2, is that the PM2000 3hp, and the Saw Stop 3hp, which were reviewed in the Fine Woodworking article, were $2100 for the PM2000, with the extension table and legs included, and the Saw Stop was $3270 with the extension table and legs optional. (Ouch)
By the way the PM2000, and the Saw Stop both made editors choice, as well as the Grizzly G1023SL, at only $975, but mentioned the blade and miter slots were out of paralell.

My personal feeling is that I am so in love with the Powermatic 66 I am bias in even considering anything else. I could go on about that for hours, but I won't bore you. If you look at the runout etc, between the saws, you will see that their is not that much difference. When I set up my saw, I did a table repositioning to get the blade true to the miter slots, (It is only a couple of bolts to loosen, without elaborating on that) and got all settings to within a thousandth. In my opinion buy the Powermatic, and take the 1000 dollars and buy yourself their 8" jointer with the difference.

The riving knife is a good thing to have, one came with my new saw, but I do not use it, for two reasons. The Incra TS-III table saw fence, doesn't allow it in the design, but even if it did, I would prefer not to have it on. It gets in the way, and you need to remove, replace, remove, replace. With the techniques I mentioned, their really isn't any need for it, but you decide that for yourself. I did buy the board buddies, which will keep the board flat on the table, the essential thing to do to prevent kickback, but I have not installed them yet either. Norm Abrams on the NYW series mentioned that they don't have it on the table saw because it would get in the way of the camera. Yeah right. :rolleyes:
You know it is funny, because I have been ribbed about being long winded, but looking over this post, I wonder which part I should leave out. I hope what I have to say is beneficial, and thanks for putting up with my "paragraphs" :)

Anyhow, I know that their are others with their own preferences, here is a link to the PDF review at Fine Woodworking. (make sure you have the free Adobe Acrobat Reader installed to read it, if not go to http://www.Adobe.com and download it) http://www.sawstop.com/media/W184JOp46-p51.pdf
You will find it to be an interesting read, because it has quite a few table saws in it.

Not that this has anything to do with the above topic, nor do I know which of those saw's I'd pick, but w.r.t. the kickback issue: as a beginner, which I still consider myself to some degree - I got a kickback from a 5 hp PM66. Fortunately it was with a piece of cherry between 1/4th and 3/8ths thick - 20 inches long and about 10 inches wide - and fortunately, it came back straight and didn't come up. It hit me right below the belt line, and fortunately not low enough to do serious damage, but it did give me a suspended internal lump at the belt line that lasted for about a month.

That was a friend's saw - someone I do a good bit of WW with. I have a MJ splitter on mine and the grip tite system, and I use push sticks. He has nothing around the blade, and likes to do bare hands. Even though we build joint projects (we make one set of plans and build two pieces - one for each of us), if there is a cut that I think is risky, I let him cut my pieces. he may get away with it forever, but I'm not willing to chance it.

A 5hp saw can really launch a piece, and in my case, I never even saw the piece fly - it took a little bit of time to realize what was going on, and then once your brain gets up to speed, you can feel the pain from where you got nailed.

[John Shuk]

Having seen a kickback happen first hand I am a believer in splitters at the least. Watching a piece of 5/4 hard maple 9"x11" fly about 20 feet at the speed of sound it seemed and hit somebody in the head really makes the case for a riving knife for me.

[Howard Hanger]

Is this the new Jet with the Riving Knife? I can't find any info or model #. For homeowner use, will a hybrid like this suffice over a true 3hp cabinet saw? Having the riving knife is very important to me. I have one on my Ryobi BT3100 and I wouldn't accept anything less on an upgrade.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I keep reading complaints about the PM. Dunno how common they are or how well PM deals with 'em but I keep seeing posts here and there about PM 200 issues table alignments trunnion issues it's a variety of issues.

I'd take General very seriously before I leapt on anything.

As simple as a table saw is it's hard to imagine how any one can screw up making one - - -but - - - when a company is in a power dive for the bottom of the consumer dollar it's amazing how hard they can drive their engineers to shave, shave, shave.

[Gary Herrmann]

I put a Bies splitter on my General 650. Very happy with it.

Keeping it to the two you mentioned, if it was me, I'd wait for some reviews of the Jet and then decide. The PM seems to be a very nice saw.

[Bob Feeser]

Bob, your PM66 did not come with a riving knife, it comes with a splitter, the two are not the same and a riving knife is much safer. I had a PM66, just got done looking at the new PM66 manual and it doesn't come, and the trunion assembly won't support, a riving knife. If you have a saw with a riving knife there are very few reasons to remove it (molding head and possibly dato). What you are experiencing are the hassles of having a typical splitter assembly (the Beis pop out splitter for the PM66 cures those problems)

Steve You're Right. My bad. I do not have a riving knife, it is a splitter. I don't use it because the Incra fence, uses a front AND back rail, which does not allow the use of the splitter. To tell you the truth, riving knives are new to me. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Woof. :)

[Steven Wilson]

No problem Bob, that would be some news if Powermatic actually redesigned the 66 to support a riving knife, about the best you'll do is the Beis pop-in splitter; it's fairly decent and should work with the Incra. If you haven't seen one you should take a look at a saw with a riving knife. I have one on my Minimax CU350 (which replaced my PM66) and I keep it set right behind the teeth. There is really no way that you can get a kickback to occur with a properly adjusted riving knife. There is a really cool demo done by one woodworker (Kelley Mahler????) running foam block into a saw blade to get it to kickback - can't do it with a riving knife installed.

[Joe Spear]

Bob Feeser:

I don't understand how the Incra fence keeps you from using a splitter. If your splitter mounts on a bracket behind the table, the Incra instructions say to cut the rear rail and spread the two parts to allow a space for the splitter bracket. Or your can do what I did on my Jet and get a Shark Guard or some other after-market splitter that doesn't require a a rear bracket.

[John Hedges]

Howard, this is the new Jet tablesaw. I had to call Jet to get an owner's manual and it took them a while to find it (that is where I got the picture from). It is not on their web site yet, but has been available for shipping for over a month now. The only place I have seen reference to it is in this ad
http://s7ondemand7.scene7.com/s7ondemand/brochure/flash_brochure.jsp?company=WMHToolGroup&sku=swing_07_jet&config=swing_07_jet

Look on page 2. It is confusing but it shows a picture of the riving knife (looks just like the PM2000) but in the big picture is the traditional jet cab saw. The new model numbers are listed below the picture of the riving knife.

[Bob Feeser]

Bob Feeser:

I don't understand how the Incra fence keeps you from using a splitter. If your splitter mounts on a bracket behind the table, the Incra instructions say to cut the rear rail and spread the two parts to allow a space for the splitter bracket. Or your can do what I did on my Jet and get a Shark Guard or some other after-market splitter that doesn't require a a rear bracket.

Cut the rear rail? Ouch. Ok, Ok, Incra says to do it, but for me, having one rail guarantees an even plane. Splitting or cutting the rear rail is possible, supporting each side, L brackets , but you still have to deal with the problem that you are sliding your fence over a "gap" and the fence gliders fore and aft ride along the top of the rails with 4 hard round plastic knobs under them. Those knobs would either get chewed up on a gaps hard edges, and or you would need to lift the fence on the back side every time you try to glide over them.

After market splitters sound like a good option. This is only my opinion, and my answer to how I do it, and that is, and I am not recommending anyone else to do the same, but I do not use a saw splitter or riving knife. I had a kickback once on the old Sears saw, and realized first hand what the problem is. It all comes down to allowing the board to rise up above the table surface, even a 16th of an inch or less, especially toward the back of the blade, and once it is elevated, even the slightest twist, will cause it to be grabbed by the teeth, and rifled backwards. The key is to not let the back part of the board to get off of the table. I use a push stick that has the typical notch in the front, and a long flat area reaching farther out, and has a gripping handle that not only allows me to keep the back of the board down, it also allows me to exert slight pressure toward the fence to keep the cut true.
Disclaimer: Read, understand, and obey all of the instructions provided by the manufacturer of a tool. Shop safety is your number one concern.
That being said Norm on NYW does not use anything other than a good push stick either, he claims, "Saw splitters etc, get in the way of the camera" I don't recall David Marks using one either on "WoodWorks" although you would need to verify that, and I can not speak for others.
For those who are not very experienced with using a table saw, the saw safety attachments such as a splitter, and riving knife are the only way to go.
It is a matter of personal preference, but I don't use it. I am careful to finish my cuts with a push stick every time, even with long boards. I leave the push stick sitting right outside of the fence, immediately to the right, within easy reach. So I start larger boards by holding them in the back, then as I approach the tail end of the cut, I reach over with my right hand, and pick up the push stick to finish my cut past the blade. I do not leave the workpiece sitting between the blade and the fence. I also don't stand behind the workpiece while making a pass. I also never stand behind the cut piece trapped between the saw and the fence. When I learned my lesson, several years ago, when the old Sears 1hp saw, shot a 2" wide, flat ended board back at me, fortunately it was flat ended, it had such a strong impact, that it abraded my skin, causing blood to rise to the surface. If it was a narrow, or sharper end, it easily would have impaled me. So do not listen to me, do what the manufacturer says.
I do want to add that I am not against splitters or riving knives. I bought a pair of board buddies, and the clamping plate, and plan on experimenting with them. I also have a Bench Dog metal panel, with a hard rubber bottom strip, that I use when routing large panels, that I would probably use if I was making a lot of wider cuts.
So you are listening to someone who is retiscent to share any of my opinions pertaining to the use of splitters or riving knives, especially when I am still playing around with some of the other options myself.

[Ken Werner]

John, maybe I'm out of line here but....it seems to me that a $200 savings is not worth trying out a new [meaning possible bugs] table saw. If you must buy now and a SawStop is out, seems to me the PM2000 makes sense. BUT, here's my take-

I think that once SS technology becomes more widespread, which because of liability issues it will, then alot of high quality cab saws will be sold [by schools and businesses who have upgraded to SS] lowering the resale of them all.

Regardless of how much more injury comes from kickback vs. direct contact with a blade, the injuries from contact are awful. Shouldn't we do what we can to avoid them?

Which brings up the issue of paying for your divorce - would you consider showing the missus the video at SawStop and asking her to consider how much your hands/fingers are worth?

I'm sorry if I'm overstepping my bounds here, but I'm only trying to be helpful. Too many of our fellow ww'ers have been hurt already.

OOPS - just realized this thread is a month old. Did you pull the trigger?

Ken

[Kyle Kraft]

John, as Jet and PM are owned by the same holding company, they probably share the same riving knife mechanism. This would alleviate the "serial number 1" jitters. I have the JTAS blah blah blah left tilt cabinet saw with the micro adjust exacta fence and I love it!!

[Bob Feeser]

Not that this has anything to do with the above topic, nor do I know which of those saw's I'd pick, but w.r.t. the kickback issue: as a beginner, which I still consider myself to some degree - I got a kickback from a 5 hp PM66. Fortunately it was with a piece of cherry between 1/4th and 3/8ths thick - 20 inches long and about 10 inches wide - and fortunately, it came back straight and didn't come up. It hit me right below the belt line, and fortunately not low enough to do serious damage, but it did give me a suspended internal lump at the belt line that lasted for about a month.

That was a friend's saw - someone I do a good bit of WW with. I have a MJ splitter on mine and the grip tite system, and I use push sticks. He has nothing around the blade, and likes to do bare hands. Even though we build joint projects (we make one set of plans and build two pieces - one for each of us), if there is a cut that I think is risky, I let him cut my pieces. he may get away with it forever, but I'm not willing to chance it.

A 5hp saw can really launch a piece, and in my case, I never even saw the piece fly - it took a little bit of time to realize what was going on, and then once your brain gets up to speed, you can feel the pain from where you got nailed.

Dave,
I know what you mean about those who push the board with their hands. That is fine when you are outside of the channel between the blade and the fence, but in the "kill" zone, I only have a push stick do the job. I bought the one I use at Home Depot. It is made out of plastic, with soft edges, and has a completely enclosed handle, as in the material is attached to the body top and bottom, making the grip something you can exert force on, in any direction you want. It is also tall enough to be above the blade height. Since I am exerting force by a twist of the wrist to keep the back of the push stick down, thereby keeping the board down, then exerting slight pressure from my arm, to create a, let's say 45 degree angle pressure running toward the fence, maintaining an accurate cut, and keeping my hands away from the blade, if the push stick ever slipped, my hand would be moving toward the fence, instead of toward the blade. When you really get down to it, the whole thing is scary. Unfortunately, being too scared, freezes clear thinking, and can contribute to accidents as well.
If you note David Marks, on his TV show, "WoodWorks" as I recall, he doesn't use one either, and as a matter of fact, finishes pushing his cut past the blade, with the eraser end of a pencil. That scares me, because I feel if the workpiece kicked back,that may drive the pencil into your hand.
I find, if I have to run pieces that are smaller than my push stick, which is good and wide, I cut them to the outside of the blade, something that is possible to do with any blade, but can be a factoring challenge with odd sized blades. The Forrest WWII that takes "EXACTLY" a 1/8" cut out of the wood, then using the Incra TS-III table saw fence, or any good fence for that matter, you can dial in a cut that is totally accurate, by deducting the 1/8" taken out by the blade.

I know everyone realizes that table saws are dangerous, not knowing, who everyone is, I do not want to be liable for anything, talking about what I do, so my disclaimer reads: Make sure you read, understand, and follow all of your manufacturers instructions that came with your tool, powersaw, etc.
Now I know why Norm uses that in the beginning of every show. :)