Fire!!

[Dave Winters]

Had a fire in the workshop last night!
I was sawing up some bowl blanks, and my dust collector caught afire.
I'm suspecting it was from the ceramic guides on my Laguna LT-18 bandsaw sparking. I do see sparks, very infrequently from them which I've been told is normal with ceramic guides. But upon thinking about it, I can't see the bottom guides, and they could be sparking like crazy if they got out of alignment and you wouldn't see it.
So I'm sawing away and my eyes started burning, and I'm thinking I got too much sun. It gets worse and then I realise I'm smelling smoke.
I look at the dust collector and the bottom bag has a hole in it and it's spewing smoke and flame. Run and get the extigusher and empty it on it. Then realise, "You idiot, turn off the collector!!" Now the smoke is so bad I can't breathe. Call 911. Run upstairs screaming bloody murder to get the wife, kids and dog out. Run back into the basement with the garden hose. Smoke is way too bad.
F.D. comes pronto, puts it out right away, damage is limited to the dust collector and an air hose reel. Very very lucky.
Dumb questions:
-Ever hear of this type of issue with ceramic bandsaw guides?
-I think I'll take the ceramic guides off this saw if for nothing else than peace of mind. What other guides can I get for this saw??
-I'm scared to report it to my ins. co. for fear of them wanting me to carry a lot more coverage, or that they will cancel me outright and close me down. I do sell my wares, have a city and state tax i.d., website, etc. Maybe I should carry more coverage..
All in all I feel very fortunate. One can always say,"It could have been a lot worse", but still...
I'll post some pics in a few days.
-Dave Winters

[Matt Meiser]

Scary and I'm glad to hear everything came out OK.

With regard to insurance--unless you have significant damage and need to file a claim, I most certainly wouldn't tell them unless your policy in any way requires you to do so. However, do they know about your business? My insurance agent made it very clear that my shop is covered as household goods--unless I was using it to run a business. Might want to check on that right away as it could be reason to deny a claim.

[jeremy levine]

Glad your ok. What type and size extinguisher did you have ? I think we can all use this info.

[Jim Becker]

Dave, regardless of the cause, I'm glad that everyone is safe and that the damage was minimal.

Unfortunately, the very nature of single-stage dust collectors makes them easy "targets" for this kind of accident. It's one of the reasons that checking them before turning out the light at the end of the day is so important...something can smolder in the bag for a long time. It's also the reason that one should never use a floor sweep with a single-stage DC.

I hope you can determine what the actual cause for your fire is and let us all know your thoughts again at that point.

[Dick Sylvan]

It's also the reason that one should never use a floor sweep with a single-stage DC.

Explain/elaborate, if you could, please.

[Brent Dowell]

Nothing quite as scary as a dust collector fire.

I had one last year when the run capacitor on my delta DC gave up the ghost and started sparking and shooting out flames. I was on the other side of the shop running something, planer or tablesaw, can't remember.

Noticed it was getting quite hard to see in the shop, so I walked to the other side (only a 3 car garage, but lots of shelves inbetween, to see smoke pouring out of the dust collector that I had stuffed in the corner.

Fortunately, I keep 3-4 of the generic fire extinguishers stashed around the shop. Hosed it down good, yanked the cord and all was good. I've got a mix of the smaller and slight larger type that Costco usually sells in 2 packs.

Definitely gives you a funny feeling to see FIRE on a bag of WOOD DUST AND CHIPS being rapidly stoked by the DC.

Fortunately, my wife was out at the time and came back just after I got the smoke cleared out of the garage....

No fun, but the moral of the story is don't be afraid to get a few fire extinguishers and keep them handy. You don't want to be searching for a fire extinguisher when something is really on fire...

[Jim Becker]

Explain/elaborate, if you could, please.

RE: Not using a floor sweep with a single stage DC

Any metal objects (screws/nails/etc) that might get picked up will strike the steel impeller in a single stage DC and spark. Remember, on these machines, all the material you are collecting passes through the blower/impeller to get to the collection bag. This is not the case with a two-stage system like a cyclone as the blower/impeller is located past the separation point. (You could theoretically have the same benefit with a pre-separator on a single stage system) Consequently, it's not recommended to use a floor sweep with a single stage collector without pre-separation...and they are best served by a cyclone, IMHO.

[Dennis Peacock]

No fun, but the moral of the story is don't be afraid to get a few fire extinguishers and keep them handy. You don't want to be searching for a fire extinguisher when something is really on fire...

No TRUER words have ever been said. Make sure your extinguishers are for any type fire....electrical, chemical, wood/paper. Dry chem or CO2 both work very well. Keep them where they can quickly be seen and accessed.

[David DeCristoforo]

Scary! With regard to insurance, you would be wise not to mention this incident to your carrier. However, you would also be wise to discuss the broader issue with your agent. You really need to read the "fine print" here. I'm not at all sure that they would not "have a problem" with the fact that you have a woodworking shop in your basement being as woodworking shops are in the "high risk" category when it comes to fire insurance. Typically, in order to get insurance on a wood shop, you have to have an "approved" fire suppression system (i.e. a sprinkler system), "approved" fire extinguishers at "approved" locations and have regular inspections by the fire department. In many areas, regulations require dust collection systems to be located outside the building and have a fire suppression system of their own. Of course, most of the applicable regs are only applied to commercial installations but your insurance company could easily deny a claim based your failure to comply with their policies, something that you may not be aware of until it's too late. Contrary to popular belief, insurance companies are not in business to give you money but, rather, to get and keep as much of yours as possible.

Whenever you have fine dust and oxygen you have a tinder box situation. Any small spark can cause ignition. Hitting an embedded piece of metal in the wood with a saw blade can do it. Or a small stone. I have seen sparks cutting cherry because of the "stones" in the wood which are very hard and abrasive. I have ball bearing Carter guides on my BS and even they throw off a spark now and then. A friend had his whole shop gutted when a couple of his guys were running a Timesaver. They were using a 220 belt and it just got too hot. When it started to smolder, the air movement from the DC fanned the hot stuff into flame and within a few moments, he had a major fire going. Whatever was not destroyed by the fire was ruined by the water from the fire hoses. In my shop, my DC turned on and off automatically via an "EcoGate" system but whenever I see a spark, I shut it down and "inspect" everything for a few. So far I have been lucky in that department.

[Brent Dowell]

The one thing I learned is that tucking my single stage DC into a corner was really not a very bright idea. Whenever I use it now, I make sure it is in a location where I can easily get to it, and if need be push it outside quickly...

[Pat Germain]

Wow, very informative post, guys. I have a floor sweep connected to my single stage DC. I'll refrain from using it until I get a separator.

I will also add a couple of fire extinguishers to my garage shop. And I'm going to email my insurance agent.

[Christof Grohs]

Friend of mine had a plastic bag of sawdust combust last week. It was outside in the yard. The bag was filled with 80grit Red Oak off a new floor installation. One cannot be too careful.

[Art Mann]

I appreciate that little story. It has convinced me to go out and get at least one good fire extinguisher for the shop. Fortunately, my shop is some distance from the house, but I would hate to see my hobby and passion go up in smoke.

[Don Selke]

Jim:

Good reason to get rid of my single stage dust collector and install a good cyclone this fall. I am going to set my sights on that purchase as soon as possible. Time to tap the quarter piggy bank.;) ;) I have two pressureized water extinguishers in the shop along with a 20lb. ABC extinguisher. That may be overkill but as a career firefighter, I would rather have too much then none.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I'm glad your damage has been minimized and can be replaced. Boy, it sounded like a pretty scary event.

If a burning ember enters your dust collection system, I doubt it matters whether one has a single stage unit or a cyclone. The ember will find its way to combustible material at the very end of your system whether it's the filter or dust bin.

I recommend that nobody use wood working machinery for ferrous metal work unless precautions are taken like disconnecting the machine from the duct system, and making sure the machine is free from dust. Stationary sanders and drill presses are probably the most multi-used machines in my shop, and both have dust collection capability that must be disabled.

I whole-heartedly agree with the recommendation not to use a floor sweep with a single stage dust collector. But I also discourage folks from using a floor sweep with a cyclone unit. Hot embers aside, if a metallic object gets sucked into your dust collection system, it's probably moving 5,000 feet per minute (or 60 miles per hour). It will scrape, bang and rattle its way thru your duct system and cyclone looking for every defect like a protuding weld bead, screws and pop rivets sticking into the airstream, misalign duct edges, or just the sides of the duct or cyclone. These are all opportunities, other than hitting the fan wheel (which always seem to be the focus of danger point), to create a spark that may come to rest on a pile of dry sawdust.

I guess my story is: don't generate sparks at your machine, and don't give opportunity for spark generation inside your dust collection system no matter what kind of dust collector you use. Our homes and families are worth us bending over with a good old fashion dust pan and brush.

Speech over.

-Jeff :)

[Matt Day]

I think this is a great post to remind us of some hidden shop dangers.

After the machines are turned off and the DC has been off for some time, is there any risk of spontaneous combustion (i.e. not from a spark from a machine like in Dave's case)? I know you can get sparks from static electricity in the ductwork that is connected to the DC if it isn't grounded, but is this a concern with 10' or so of plastic duct?

I need to get a fire extinguisher in my shop pronto, I just don't know if I should take any other precautions with my single stage 1.5 HP Delta DC.

[Jeff Raymond]

From the old school, here's my 2 cents worth, altho it may not apply to your case, but since you bring it up...

With a dust collector, you are creating a fierce, turbulent current with wood chips and dust going through at high volume. I have always used metal piping with the dust collector, making sure to GROUND it. Otherwise you are creating a potential bomb.

If you look at chips going through a pipe at night without GROUNDING, you are likely to see, due to static electrical generation in the piping, St. Elmo's Fire...being very high voltages as the material goes through the pipes.

You'll have to figure out the cause...but I can tell you that about 25 years ago, a guy I believe in Vermont blew up his shop due to a NON-GROUNDED dust collection system.

Important stuff, especially with a planer/jointer.

[CPeter James]

In addition to having a 10 pound tri-class (abc) dri chemical in the shop, one of the best extinguishers on sawdust and wood is a 2 1/2 gallon pressurized water extinguisher to which you add a good dose of dish detergent as a wetting agent. It will penetrate a sawdust pile of wet the surface of burning wood instead of just running off. Also you can get a foam nozzle for these that will lay down a nice layer of cold, wet foam to smother the fire. cheap, very effective and easily refillable.

CPeter

[Roger Savatteri]

I've been thinking about the ceramic guides.

Could those who have them talk about the pros and cons?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Could have been the laguna guides. If they make a wood dust generating tool they would I think liable if it lights things on fire when used as it's supposed to be.
Could have been a static spark in the DC but that's far less likely.

[Gary Herrmann]

Glad you're ok Dave. I've been thinking of getting ceramic guides. I may have to rethink that now.

Also makes me think I should move a cyclone up to the top of my want list.

[Blake Holton]

A good smoke detector and carbon monoxide detector (for anyone with a gas hot water heater) are probably a good idea, too. My smoke detector is located right in the middle on my shop ceiling.

Blake

[Chris Parks]

Yes, smoke detectors are a must. If a fire goes undetected and you leave the shop it still warns you. if you are working and do not notice it also warns you. Put it right above the dust collector.

[Richard Wolf]

I have the Laguna ceramic guides on my MiniMax 20. Yes they spark at times but it is a very cool spark that seems like it would be very unlikely that it could start any fire. Is it possible? I don't know, but I would really think not. The sparks do not even reach the table before disappearing.

Anyway, I find the ceramic guides very easy to adjust and an improvement over the Euro guides.

Richard

[James Kuhn]

I was a bit scared about the sparks from my ceramic guides early on but I've found that, as long as they are properly adjusted and tightened up, I haven't had any problems. The only time I had sparks was when I had forgotten to tighten the fence while sawinf some pretty heavy wood: The blade wandered way too far to the left and end ended up snapping. Definately a wetware malfuction rather than any problem with the guides.:rolleyes:

[Steve Clardy]

Wow. Sure glad you and the family are ok, and had minimal damage.

[John Fry]

I am on my second Laguna band saw and have been running ceramic guides for over five years now. I've heard the concerns about "sparks" but I have been fortunate to NOT have any problems.

But c'mon, have you ever looked down inside your routers, or any other brushed motors? I have a PC 3-1/4 HP router hung under my table and the DC hose is 4" away from it and is sucking the dust and chips that fall into the open, sparking end, of the router right up into the hose.

[Matt Meiser]

With respect to smoke detectors, having one in the shop would be good in this situation, but they can also be set off by fine dust. Having one that is attached to a monitored alarm system probably wouldn't be allowed by an alarm company. Mine won't and neither would the two other companies I got quotes from.

[Dave Morris]

Wow, glad it wasn't a total disaster... could so easily have been one.

You might want to call Laguna and see what they say about their guides, but don't forget to check out the DC itself. Could be a problem with the bearings getting hot, something rubbing the impeller, or something not as easily diagnosed.

Long time ago I was nearly killed when an industrial dust collection fan had a bearing get hot. The motor slowed down, letting dust build up while the bearing got hotter and hotter. I noticed some smoke, got the guy I was training on the job out of the way, and went to hit the fire alarm. Just before I could get there, the whole back of the fan blew off, sending shrapnel outwards and leaving "bullet holes" in the concrete wall that I was heading towards. Scary stuff. (It happened again in another location less than six months later... blew out all the windows in the building. Yeah, I quit that job and never looked back)

Dunno if your situation was caused by the sparks you noticed or not, just saying be sure to check all possible causes before turning on the saw again.

[Ben Grunow]

Done some fire rehab jobs and the best tool I have seen for removing the odor of smoke is an ozone generator. We have a cleaning company that we use to clean homes before they are turned over to the client and they used it to deodorize a home we fixed after a small fire and what a difference it made.

Drapes/rugs/furniture need to be cleaned but that odor is hard to eliminate from everywhere. You might smell it on a cold damp day in november, 6 months after it happened. Strange. Like gradmas casserole.

[Kermit Hodges]

If you don't have a claim there is nothing to tell the insurance company.

Not telling them about your shop or business could be a huge mistake. Depends on what your coverage is and policy says. Lets just say that they will not cover a business operation for the sake of argument.

Lets say your fire burned down you house. You were running a business and it was not covered by you policy. Now you rinsurance company refuses to pay for the house because of some term in your policy. Was it worth saving some money in premiums?

RUN, don't walk to your agent and talk to him about this situation. The fire you had doesn't matter. It was just the wake up call. Come clean and find out what you need and quit trying to cheat them. You rarely win when you go up against an insurance company.

FWIW I had to take an insurance company to court once. It took close to two years to settle. Could you wait that long if you house has been destroyed?

Andy yes I am trying to scare you.

[Corey Hallagan]

Wow, I am glad you did not have a lot of damage and you and your family are ok Dave.

With regards to your insurance situation.... please remember that you have a homeowners insurance. It is designed for the homeowner.... not the business owner. It is basically broken down into property coverage and liability coverage. Both provide coverage for personal exposures. Your home, personal property, and your personal liability that is there to protect you when someone is injured on your property etc. Everyone of us that have a wood hobby shop are covered for our equipment etc. if we carry enough coverage along with our other personal property. From a hobby shop perspective... if you are not carrying enough coverage to pay for the equipment can you afford to replace them on your own? Not carrying enough insurance will only hurt you not the insurance carrier.

At what point does it become a commercial venture? Obviously if you are doing custom cabinetry work out of a home, this is a business pursuit. If you spend your days making items to sell then I would say you are at risk. Business Personal Property is not covered. Liability from a business pursuit is not covered. Don't expect your carrier to pay for damages in this area... as you are not paying for that. Often it is not a fire that triggers the question do you have a commercial operation it is a liability law suit of some kind and then next thing you know your carrier is asking questions of you. There is a business pursuits endorsement available but I would think it would be rare for a insurance carrier to consider a woodworking business under this endorsement as it is primarily designed for the small office exposure, beauty shop operators, baby sitters etc.

Just some things to think about. Glad you are ok.

Corey

[Don Bullock]

Dave, I'm glad to hear that everyone is OK and you still have your home. That's what is truly important.

Jim, I was thinking that I needed to get an inexpensive DC system as soon as I could afford one. Your information, as well as some of the additions to the information you posted about single stage DC systems, has convinced me that it's not really the best way to go. That's one of the best things about forums like this. The information that we have as a group is astounding.

While on the subject of woodworking and fire, I heard a tragic story from the instructor of the woodworking class I've been taking. His neighbor had much of his house remodeled recently. The last project was the banister on the stairs. The finishing contractor decided to use Watco as a finish for the wood. Seemed OK to me, but I would have used something different.

When he was done the guy doing the finishing work threw all the finish soaked rags in a corner in the upstairs hallway. Yes, they started a fire. The house was a total loss - burned to the ground. It gets worse, if you can believe that's possible. The finisher did not have adequate insurance and the homeowner's insurance company claims no liability because the finisher caused the fire. All the homeowner's insurance company is doing for him is trying to sue the finisher. So, the finisher has declared bankruptcy and skipped town. The homeowner is now left with a home that has literally burned to the ground and inadequate insurance money, the little amount that the finisher was insured for, to replace it. Even if his insurance company does manage manage to sue the finisher, he has nothing for them to get.

Don't just watch out for all that sawdust in the shop. The rags can literally burn you too.

[Pat Germain]

...the information you posted about single stage DC systems, has convinced me that it's not really the best way to go.

While I certainly emphasize safety in all aspects of my life, keep in mind tens of thousands of single stage DC units are in use every day without incident. Exactly what is the "best way" would vary from person to person.

This discussion has raised my concerns about disposing sawdust. Is there a generally safe way to get rid of sawdust without creating any hazards? Is it OK to dump into the proverbial outdoor trash container?

[Robert Miller]

I have a single stage and it's in the corner. After reading this I'm moving it. I had a little scare the other day but not this bad. My shop is wired for 220v which is what most of my machines run on.
I'm running some parts through my 15 inch planer when I happen to look at the plug in the wall outlet which is now on fire. The plug was just starting to spark and it had a flame coming out of it when the ground-fault blew and my planer stopped.
I quickly threw the main breaker off and waited for the plug to cool off.
I diassembled the plug and it was one of the hot leads that worked its way out of the plug and finally arched across and BOOM.
I replaced the plug, and inspected ALL of my connections on ALL of my machines. My shop is also in my garage ( my wife is not supposedto call it the "garage"):p
I had a dedicated line installed from the power company and completely re-wired the shop:cool: with all ground-fault outlets.
Overkill?
Maybe, but your incident with your fire and mine with my "poof" kind of gives you a wake up call.
Let's take a saftey inspection of our shops.

[Don Bullock]

While I certainly emphasize safety in all aspects of my life, keep in mind tens of thousands of single stage DC units are in use every day without incident. Exactly what is the "best way" would vary from person to person...

Pat, my statement may not have gone far enough or have been unclear. It seems to me that a cyclone (two stage) system would be the "best way" for me at least. If it is possible for a pre-separator on a single stage system, I may look into that as well.

At this point, since I don't have either a planer or jointer and I don't do a lot of woodworking, disposing of my sawdust isn't a problem. I was thinking more in the future when my plans include a much bigger shop with more time to work thus producing far more sawdust. You are correct that the "best way" if different for everyone.

[Bill Wyko]

I lost 1/2 of my entire business to a fire about 7 years ago and I can tell you, it's an awful experience. I'm glad you and your family are ok. When My fire was all said and done. I was under insured by about 65k. Fortunatly, I was a framer in my younger days so i rebuilt everything myself. I think it would be a good idea to insure yourself properly. I'm suprized I was able to stay in business. I've also heard of static electricity causing a fire in dust collection systems.

[Brad Naylor]

Scary...

I've had a couple of similar close shaves. The first one was when forcing a length of 2" maple through a table saw whose blade needed sharpening. The burning smell lingered a little too long, and on investigation I discovered smouldering embers in the dust chute of the saw. I now get my blades sharpened every two weeks!

The second incident was a strange one. I was doing a little final assembly in my finishing room and set down on the bench a spare battery for my cordless drill.

Cue burning smell.

It turned out that the battery terminals were touching a wad of steel wool on the bench, and had ignited it!

Until then I didn't know that steel wool burned. Try it - it does!

Bear in mind that my finishing room contains around 100 gallons of flammable liquids...