Big Deal New Shop

[Jeff Raymond]

Awright.

A number of years ago, I decided to make furniture without much of a clue as to how to do it. Went through a lot of arn before settling down with some serious Big Boy Delta, etc., equipment. After a few years, sold the whole deal to a competitor, with a non-compete for 5 years.

Wife and I went on the road with the RV for 7 years and are now back...and yes, doing the shop thing from the ground up, quite literally.

Of course, we've got a 24x30 2-story space, not the best, but that's what we have.

First thing is, what are we going to have for tools?

My first exercise was to go with ex-factory and as we have discussed here, it lead to nowhere. One of the problems was shipping, inspection of equipment, all the reasons we discussed on an earlier thread. End of that road.

Then I spoke with Hermance Machinery in Pennsylvania. They were just great, but their used inventory is very thin and want to sell what they have, not what a guy wants, which is OK. I would highly recommend their service and integrity.

Not that I lost interest, but decided to let things slide for a bit. My Milwauke hand scroll saw (cheap junk) crapped out on me after only 25 years of use, which was somewhat of a disappointment. I went to HD to replace same, and of course, they didn't have what I wanted, but directed me to Western Tool, a store owned by an outfit in Oregon.

Gosh they were awfully nice and had some mid-level stuff in stock, but just enough bigger stuff to catch my interest. So I asked them if they could ge the Big Boy stuff. Yup, they could. Because the order was more than $2K, no shipping charge from Delta to them; and due to the size of the order, these hapless sales people are going to deliver all this stuff to my shop and place it for no charge (huge savings). I checked their prices with all the usual suspects and their prices individually and together are less than any other quoted prices. We made the deal.

So in a few weeks, got the 18" BS, 3hp Dust Collector, American 3 hp Unisaw, 12" jointer, 20" jointer, 16 1/2" drill press, 16" lathe, all for about 1/2 the cost of a fully outfitted Harley Davidson, delivered, read to wire up.

Next step is to get a rotophase gen for the 3 phase side of things; wire up, insulate and drywall.

My deal is that the wider jointer will allow FLAT boards to go into the jointer to minimize sanding. It's going to be weird having a 2-story shop; but will use the ground floor as the 'mill,' with the upstairs for everything else.

Checked with Jim Becker and he green-lighted this posting, so hopefully I haven't stepped on too many toes, but wanted to share this enterprise with all, having gone through the buy-the-cheap-little-tools-too-many-times-and-threw-them-away-cost deal more than once in the past.

So there ya go folks. Oh, already got wood.

[Kyle Kraft]

Sounds like a dream shop to most folks, congratulations!! I have one question, why a 12" jointer and a 20" jointer?

[Art Mann]

I have two comments. First of all, my shop is 2 story like yours. It is such a PITA to move large finished goods from the upstairs to downstairs that I simply don't do it. The upstairs is now dedicated to material storage and noisy equipment like an air compressor. The second thing I will comment on is your selection of 3 phase equipment. If you are buying new, why in the world are you buying 3 phase? There is absolutely no benefit to it unless you are getting used equipment ultra cheap or your power company is willing to feed 3 phase to your shop fo cheap. 3 phase is not inherently better in a small shop environment. In fact, it is very undesirable (and costly) to me to have to create inefficient 3 phase power from a single phase feed.

[Matt Meiser]

I would assume he means a 12" jointer and 20" planer?

[Tyler Howell]

Pictures>>>>>>We want Pictures.

[Jeff Raymond]

Thanks for your comments. I agree that the 2-story deal is not the best, but it is what I have and will have to figure out how do make it work. It will be a PITA to a certain extent, but life ain't perfect.

Going for the 12" jointer as most FAS wood is usually not wider than that. If something come up wider, will look at other options...NOT including ripping it.

What I have been discovering is that Delta is the most aggressive in pricing at this particular moment, less than Jet, Powermatic, etc.

I did try to buy American being a vet and all, but in new machinery, there aren't a whole lot of options in that regard. The tradeoff here is that Delta has an actual name to stand behind and expect that if any problems develop I know where to find them.

No pics yet, as the arn is on the way in a few weeks, but will do so.

Couple of other comments: Excepting the TS, all of this equipment is about 60% of what I paid 20 years ago for the same stuff. Too bad gasoline doesn't fit into that category.

I am going 3-phase as the equipment is much less expensive and also at 5hp, you are pushing the edge of an electrical motor at single phase. It also gives me the option of adding equpment with roto-gen that isn't available in single phase.

Upstairs will be the fussy area of sizing, mortising, sanding and a section for finishing. There exists a 4' wide stairway at the back of the shop for moving stuff up and down. A friend is thinking about some kind of a manual elevator to make things easier. I am going to stack wood upstairs as I have found that it likes the humidity upstairs (which will be insulated) rather than anywhere near cement (bad).

So, we work with what we have...will continue to monitor this thread and letchya know how things go.

Thanks for the interest and support.

[Jason Beam]

I'm glad to hear you had a good experience with Western Tool. I have two stores in my area and absolutely love them. They get my business first, before the local Woodcraft and before another local machinery co. The prices and service are VASTLY better at Western Tool by a long shot.

[Jim Becker]

The idea of some form of lift/elevator is an excellent thing to consider, especially for moving finished projects down...so much can happen on a stairway, even when it's 4' wide.

[Al Killian]

For moveing stuff up/down the stairs you can rig up a winch system that rides on angle iron attached to the walls. I am working on doing this same thing in my new shop.

[Jeff Raymond]

Al:

Sounds interesting. If you have a chance, it'd be cool for all of us to see a pic?

Why is it that none of us can have a big enough shop...or a printer that is fast enough?

[Jeff Raymond]

Well, this is the beginning of the delivery of the arn today at the ol' shop. We'll see how many pics a guy can post here.

[Jeff Raymond]

Today is the planer, jointer, band saw and some other stuff. "Some assembly required..."

Y'know...

[Jeff Raymond]

Geez, some of this stuff is really heavy...Remembering that this is the very cool-headed and great, friendly staff from the local Western Tool Supply store.

Great guys. They put everything right on the money and no one got hurt...the definition of a good landing.

Next week is the 3-phase converter and hopefully the lathe. Forgot the drill press and the oscillating sander dealie, but will catch up with that....

Y'all wanted pictures, so there you go.

[Jim O'Dell]

Lookin' good! Is everything 3-phase, or just some items? Jim.

[Dixon Peer]

I have two comments. First of all, my shop is 2 story like yours. It is such a PITA to move large finished goods from the upstairs to downstairs that I simply don't do it. The upstairs is now dedicated to material storage and noisy equipment like an air compressor. The second thing I will comment on is your selection of 3 phase equipment. If you are buying new, why in the world are you buying 3 phase? There is absolutely no benefit to it unless you are getting used equipment ultra cheap or your power company is willing to feed 3 phase to your shop fo cheap. 3 phase is not inherently better in a small shop environment. In fact, it is very undesirable (and costly) to me to have to create inefficient 3 phase power from a single phase feed.

I have three phase equipment in my shop including a 10 hp Sueri Alfredo spindle shaper, a 4 hp Sueri Alfredo 300mm jointer (about 12"), a 3 hp Griggio 18" bandsaw, etc. It requires two roto phases, one that runs the 4 to 10 hp equipment and one for the 3 hp bandsaw, and it's really worked out very well for me over the years. I don't know how one could run 10 hp motors on split phase current, and when one is doing large profiles on the shaper...well.

[Jeff Raymond]

Lookin' good! Is everything 3-phase, or just some items? Jim.


I went with 3-phase for the planer and jointer. Everything else is single phase. The price difference alone (3-phase being less) paid for the converter. Now I can add either single or 3-phase up to 30 hp continuous.

Frankly, it's gonna take a bit to get what's here up and running, but you have to have an eye on the future setting up a shop. Lesson learned the hard way many years ago.

[Jeff Raymond]

Just as I was getting the tools pretty much set up, it became obvious that the 2nd story floor needed some serious support. So, all the neat and clean went out the window as we were beginning the electrical work as well.

If this post turns out, there will be another one following with the first power work.

[Jeff Raymond]

Here's the bridging pic: We went from about 17 pounds to 30 pounds of support upstairs with 3/4 ply and the bounce went away.

[Jeff Raymond]

Turns out that Lowe's has a 100-Amp 'Shop Panel' you can get that already has some breakers in it, ready to rock when you are. This is the panel with the power into it. We were please to see a strong 240V at the panel, as the more voltage, the less the amperage draw.

Considering the cost of copper these days, we did go with aluminum wiring, but used the oxiding sealant to avoid corrosion.

The WMS rotophase is rated to pull 100 Amps, but upon measure (the instructions were WRONG) it only pulls 31 Amps.

More to follow if you're interested.

[Brad Naylor]

If you're going to store your wood upstairs, why not have your big machines up there to process it, with your assembly and finishing areas downstairs.

Much easier lugging componants down the stairs than pieces of furniture.

[Jeff Raymond]

Brad:

Good question.

First of all, there is the weight issue. The jointer and planer alone weigh in at just under 1800 lbs each. You need a mill floor to hold them upstairs. Cement works. The other thing is that cool cement in contact with warmer, more humid air creates condensation and wood instability. So, the wood needs to be relatively dry 8 - 11% humidity, which is just about right upstairs.

With the upstairs being a Cape roof, I can put my lighting on the 45-degree walls for better sanding light and a lot more swing room for work. (Also warmer in the winter).

So the first floor is the milling area and upstairs is fiddling around with wood.

And, this is the way I have always done it, so why change now?

[Jeff Raymond]

Just to keep up to date, things have bogged down a bit as they usually do in a big project.

Gotten most of the tools put together. Still waiting on the lathe which is back-ordered from Delta.

Final electrical work to be done tomorrow hopefully.

Got an estimate from an insulation outfit. Turns out they can insulate the building for LESS than it would cost me to buy the insulation itself. (They get the order).

The downers so far are:

The Biesemeyer fence is a tremendous disappointment. The table that came with it was warped in two directions No matter how you set it up, it is cupped and/or impossible to squarely fasten to the TS. I'd heard all the raves about it, but it is nothing to scream about. I'd prefer the older extruded aluminum Unifence frankly. It's light and much more flexible in use. That's an opinion folks.

The infeed table on the jointer has either a shipping gouge/casting greeble in it which is only cosmetic, but it is right in the middle of the facing of the table which I will see every time.

The fence on the bandsaw came without a retainer in it. Western Tool went to work on it for me. Delta replaced the whole fence, not just the retainer as they didn't have it listed as a separate part. Go figure. Delta ain't what it used to be, that is what I am finding out.

Good news:

Overall I am happy with what I am seeing come together. The final steps are to finish the power tomorrow. Then the insulation and DC installation and wind these babies up and actually MAKE something!

Pics to folo when we're there.

[Dave Lewis]

Jeff:

What is WMS rotophase?

[Jeff Raymond]

The WMS rotophase takes single-phase power and generates a third leg, thereby creating 3-phase power in the shop.

Mine has the capacity to start 10 hp instantaneously, with 30 hp continuous running.

We get 'er running the other night and it is very quiet...then cranked up the jointer and planer which were also quiet.

This is my first shop on a concrete floor (others being in an old barn with a wood floor). Made the first test 'jointer' piece from a chunk of #3 pine and it is slick...and you can carry on a conversation while doing it.

Hope springs eternal...it is coming together!

[Phil Ashley]

looks like you got a good deal. joe strouse and the folks at Hermance are some of the best in the business.

have fun making chips!