small back saws - saw size?

[Robert Trotter]

Hi folks,

I Just want to get an idea about what teeth setup and saw length etc. to use for cutting tennons and small joints etc. I am going to get some small back saws for small joinery tasks (fine detail work) and I need to decide on saw set ups.

An example of one project I want to do is on the design forum http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=58462



I was thinking of a pair of carcus saws; one cross cut and one rip saw. However, I am now thinking that three saws would be a useful (complete) set. A cross cut and two rip saws. One rip with fine teeth and one with coarser teeth for deeper cuts. BUt I am unsure if this is necessary. Ex. up to what size cut is a 16ppi saw useful for?
I figure that the one cross cut saw with fine teeth would be adequate for most of the cross cut situations for small joinery.:confused:

I am pretty handy with my hands and am used to getting things done with what is available. (As are many people, I am sure.) That is, I can get by with what I have. (It is a part of woodworking) So to keep things focussed let's look at the "best saw set up for the job".

While this is for my own benefit, I think that the info would be valuable for beginning woodworkers or for those who want to go neandre, so your wisdom would be helpful to all.

As an example, if you were cutting tennons, what back saw would you use? Number of teeth, useable saw blade length, useable blade depth etc.?

I want the saws for hardwoods. Will the type of hardwood change the saw setup much for the same joint? say walnut, ash and ipe or teak for examples. If so what will change and what are the recomendations?

Here are a few kinds of small tennons as examples to consider.
66991

For each of the three tennons shown (A,B,C) would the teeth set up change? How about any joints smaller than "C"? (like for boxes and dovetails)

And just to add to the confusion, here are two generic tennons.
66992

The blue one being rather wide but not deep and the green one being not as wide but deeper. Does the saw configuration change and how?

Saw buying OPTIONS:-
1. get two saws. One rip and one x-cut.
2. get three saws. Two rip and one x-cut.

What do you think?

And one last question - does the length of the saw effect cutting dovetails? For example most dovetail saws seem to be about 8" or so useable blade length. Would using a 16 ppi 12" saw become dificult to use? Why the short length?

OK that's about it.

Looking forward to reading.

Robert.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I'm by no means an expert on anything but my understanding and my experience is that the longer the tenon, the less TPI you want. Depth is not that important except in the max. depth of tenon you can cut, so for your two generic tenons I would use the same TPI with the blade depth necessary for the deeper tenon. A deeper blade is also easier to keep vertical at the start of the cut as the angle you are holding the saw at is more amplified with a longer reference.

My tenon saw (probably more appropriately called a sash saw) is about 12" and I think about 13 TPI rip. It cuts smaller furniture sized tenons ok but for wider tenons (say more than 3-4") I wish I had a saw with less TPI (and a longer blade). Traditional tenon saws were much longer, more like what we call miter saws (16-18" isn't too long). My dovetail saw is 8" and 18 TPI rip. It is good up to about 3/4" stock but that is about it. Any thicker than that and the teeth clog too fast and slow the cut noticeably.

I heard mention of a general rule one time regarding the approximate number of teeth that should be in the cut at any one time to be most effecient but I can't recall where I read it. Maybe someone else will know.

As for length of the saw, the length basically gets shorter as the TPI get longer. This is basically because as the number of TPI gets higher, the thickness that can be effeciently cut gets smaller so there's no need for the extra length.

My suggestion (for what it's worth) would be for 3 saws. An 8-10" dovetail/joinery saw filed rip and about 16 TPI, a longer 14-16" saw filed rip and about 10-12 TPI, and a 14" crosscut saw at about 12 TPI, though a second shorter saw with more TPI might be nice for small crosscuts.

Mike W. I'm sure will have a better (or at least more knowledgable) recommendation.

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks Robert for your input.

I'll have to sit down, have a beer and think it over. And I think I'll ask Mike W.

Do you have any of his saws? If yes, what wood do you have for the handle?

Robert

[Robert Rozaieski]

I do not own any of Mike's saws. I have a very limited tool budget so I usually end up buying junkers and cleaning/tuning them up into performers. My newest saw is a 10" Atkins No. 2 that I have cleaned up and now need to re-tooth, set and sharpen and also make a new handle (I really don't like the original and one of the bolt holes has a crack through it). I will make this a fine tooth crosscut saw for cutting tenon and dovetail shoulders and other small fine crosscuts.

If I could afford a new saw (and had the need), it would be one of Mike's Kenyon saws. I really like the looks of those, a lot. I have a thing for older tools (90% of my tools started out as old junkers), and these have that old world look but in a new saw. I've never used one but have heard enough about them to drop the coin (again if I had it). I may add a large Kenyon tenon saw or tenon saw kit of Mike's to my X-mas list this year as that is one saw I find myself wanting often enough to justify the purchase.

As for handle wood, I've never been a fan of the exotic woods. I like the plain old applewood handles of the old saws. Those handles are real comfortable (I only have one on an old Disston #7 and it's the most comfortable handle I own). The one I make for my new saw will be from walnut because I have some, but any tight grained hardwood would be fine. Again, if I were to order from Mike, I'd get the Kenyon handle which I believe is beech. Handle wood is really just personal preference. Makes no difference in the performance of the saw.

[Wilbur Pan]

This might not be what you're looking for, since I use Japanese pull saws, but it is another data point, and might be useful for a beginner who has not bought a bunch of western style saws yet.

For the tenons you have in your pictures, for the cuts that are 25 mm or less, I would use my dozuki (dovetail saw) which has 26 TPI and has a crosscut (!) tooth configuration. Even though this saw has a crosscut profile, it works great for straight rip cuts in material 1" or less. I think that this might be because the Japanese crosscut profile is not exactly the same as the crosscut profile on a western style saw, but I could be wrong. For cuts > 25 mm, I would use the rip side of my hardwood ryoba (2 sided saw) that is 9 TPI.

As Robert R. says, for a given cut, there is an "ideal" TPI for cutting efficiency. For me, I've found that less TPI --> faster cut, which needs to be balanced with more TPI --> smoother finish. I know that this is a vast oversimplification, as there are many other things that contribute to the finish of the cut, but all other things being equal, that is true.

I like to use the longest saw I can on a cut. I think that longer saws lead to straighter cuts, again, all other things being equal. This may seem a bit counterintuitive, since it would seem that smaller saws would work better on cutting small tenons, but I find that the greater length of the saw makes it easier to keep the cut to the line.

When sawing, we all adjust the line of the cut by moving the handle of the saw left and right. With a longer saw length, a given left-right adjustment results in a smaller angle change, making it less likely that inadvertent left-right movements will affect the line of the cut.

In fact, I also have a shorter dozuki that is 180 mm and has 28 TPI that I thought I would use for "small joints", but I've found that I really don't use it even for small joints anymore.

As far as buying options, I have three saws that do the vast majority of what I need to do. My dozuki (dovetail saw), which has a 240 mm (9 1/2") blade and 26 TPI, a ryoba for hardwood, which has 9 TPI on the rip side and 22 TPI on the crosscut side, and is also 240 mm long. Those two saws can deal with any dovetail and tenon that I've ever had to cut. I also have a 270 mm crosscut/rip hybrid Japanese saw that I use for cutting 8/4 stock. I don't need to worry about resharpening -- all of my saws have replaceable blades.