Any Yankees Who Went Metric?

[Pat Germain]

I was in elementary school during the Carter administration. Those who are old enough will likely recall that Carter wanted the US to go metric. Therefore, I recieved lots of instruction on the metric system in school. I was quite good at it. Of course, the US never really went metric. Then I had to flail to compensate to the inch-pound system.

When I'm doing woodworking, I can get by using inches and feet. But boy, going metric sure sounds nice. For me, anyway, it would be much easier because metric is first nature while fractions of inches are a few natures down.

Have any of my fellow Yanks gone metric? Are there any drawbacks/downsides to being in the US and doing woodworking with metric measurements? Most of my tools have both metric and inches on the tapes. Perhaps buying wood may present a challenge. :confused:

[Gary Keedwell]

Well Pat....we had a lively thread not too many months ago ( maybe weeks). We had some people from all over the planet telling us (USA) that we should convert. I think what started it was the Festoolies.
Growing up in a machine shop...obviously, I'm a little prejudice. I know all the fractions and their decimal equivalents. Since I make all my parts from scratch, even if the world converts....I don't have to.
I'm not saying which way is best, metric or imperial. They both have their merits. I know that most,if not nearly all, countries do their stuff in metric but in my small world, and at my age, I'll take fractions.;)

Gary K.

[David DeCristoforo]

If you prefer metric, go metric. Neither system is "better". Where most people run into problems is in trying to use both. Nothing converts exactly and the results can be frustrating. So my suggestion is to pick the system you are most comfortable with and use it (as much as possible) exclusively.

[glenn bradley]

To each their own. Use what works best for you. Many commercial cabinet shops are all metric. At work I bounce between decimal, binary and hex in mid-sentence. In the shop I use fractions and metric as required and don't really think about it. If my dad had his way we'd be metric and I can sure see the advantage.

[Joe Mioux]

I wish we were on the metric system.

[John Schreiber]

The military runs on the metric system now doesn't it? I would think that would have more effect on society.

My experience in other countries was that after a few days, I learned to think metric and it was an easy enough adjustment.

[Andrew Williams]

One reason I like the fractional system is that it is based on "halves and doubles". For instance, 3/8 will always be half of 3/4, 3/16 will always be half of 3/8, and so on...forever. This makes things very easy when you want to center a groove or choose the right size for a mortise.

Conversely, If I measure a piece of wood and it comes up 17mm, then I will have to go to 8.5mm, and then to 4.25mm and so on. Since I have not seen any rule that has tenths of a mm (or even half-mm's) this becomes an "estimation" thing. Perhaps these things do exist and I just haven't seen one though.

That is an inherent problem with the decimal system. Not so much that 10 is a tough number to deal with. Its more of a problem with the number 5, which is half. Once you go further down the path of halves, things get mighty fiddly. By that time, you might decide you would rather have a rule graduated in 32nds of an inch. Even 64ths are not impossible to etch on a rule.

On the overall subject of the metric system in the US, I can understand why the rest of the world thinks we are backward but consider this: Some of our labs have been using the metric system for many years. It is common in science and technology to use it. It is just not used in things like road signs and automobile speeds (and carpenters' rules). I prefer the english system for temperatures, since each successive "decade" of temperatures has a specific feel associated with it ("It's in the 50s today") whereas waking up and hearing "it's going to be in the 12 to 16 range today" is not quite as fine-grained a measure of temperature. Speeds are a different story, since the roles are reversed. It was easy to get used to driving KPH when I lived in Europe. Also ordering drinks by 500ml or something, no problem. With woodworking, I'll stick with my Starrett folding rule.

[Jimmy Newman]

Well... I'd love to work purely in metric if it were possible - that would be great. Unfortunately, I have a bunch of stuff made for inches, and everyone else here uses inches. If we ever do switch to metric (which I'm sure we will), I'll be happy though.

[Phil Thien]

One reason I like the fractional system is that it is based on "halves and doubles". For instance, 3/8 will always be half of 3/4, 3/16 will always be half of 3/8, and so on...forever. This makes things very easy when you want to center a groove or choose the right size for a mortise.

Conversely, If I measure a piece of wood and it comes up 17mm, then I will have to go to 8.5mm, and then to 4.25mm and so on. Since I have not seen any rule that has tenths of a mm (or even half-mm's) this becomes an "estimation" thing. Perhaps these things do exist and I just haven't seen one though.


This is interesting because I was reading at a forum in another country that uses metric that one of the posters preferred using the English fractional system for those very reasons.

[Richard Butler]

Have any of my fellow Yanks gone metric? Are there any drawbacks/downsides to being in the US and doing woodworking with metric measurements? Most of my tools have both metric and inches on the tapes. Perhaps buying wood may present a challenge. :confused:

My advice is to use what is appropriate or easiest at the time. When was the last time you went to the lumber yard for 50mmx100mm boards?

[Eddie Darby]

If you are selling in your local area, and it is Imperial, then working in metric to suit the world doesn't make much sense.

[Jason Boushard]

The military runs on the metric system now doesn't it? I would think that would have more effect on society.

My experience in other countries was that after a few days, I learned to think metric and it was an easy enough adjustment.
nope we still use the standard system. I doubt we will change anytime soon either since you would be reinventing the wheel at the taxpayers expense so to speak.

[Chuck Wintle]

I live on a country that switched years ago to metric yet I still use inches and feet for any woodworking or construction project. I still think in feet and inches and that will never change. :D

[Dewayne Reding]

The military runs on the metric system now doesn't it? I would think that would have more effect on society.

John,

To some degree we have, but it is still just a big mixed up mess. I'm a mechanic supervisor in an artillery unit.

We calculate artillery firing data using meters and mils etc. New equipment procured may have metric hardware ... or not. Our maps are all metric, and we express all our fuel and water needs in gallons.

Good thing I learned both in school I guess. Should have converted when we said we would. I look at my daughter's math homework now, and it isn't like the school system is against change.

[joe greiner]

If you prefer metric, go metric. Neither system is "better". Where most people run into problems is in trying to use both. Nothing converts exactly and the results can be frustrating. So my suggestion is to pick the system you are most comfortable with and use it (as much as possible) exclusively.

I agree that doing conversions in the middle of a project is asking for trouble. But I have no problem mixing as needed or more convenient. For example, measure one distance, say 25 7/8" in Imperial, then cut a slot 17mm wide. Just don't use the far side of the slot as a reference for subsequent Imperial distances. One advantage of this is it's just easier to identify a 17mm tick mark than to identify 43/64".

In HS science classes, we used metric as then defined without much heartache.

The debate usually degenerates into a religious argument, and will never be settled. How about we all just use furlongs, rods, and cubits?

Joe

[Jeff Raymond]

There were those who thought that the Metric System was a Commie plot or something when it first came out.

What we have today is a dual system which creates some troubles. Most hardwood ply sold as 3/4 is actually a tad under, really made to metric standards, which screws up a fixed 3/4 rabbet.

Measure twice, cut once.

[Jack Briggs]

I use both. When tight tolerances are required my dial calipers are standard decimal. When setting the fence on my bandsaw it's often metric simply for quick down & dirty setting.

[Harry Goodwin]

I come with no axe to grind but a need to answer my questions for those more stupid.
I see some advantage for measuring small distances for tools ect in metric and have a digital caliper that will give me drill sizes ect in both.
My question is how we do in metric in something like 5 feet. How do you write down measurements that are over the meter. Harry

[Gary Keedwell]

There were those who thought that the Metric System was a Commie plot or something when it first came out.
What we have today is a dual system which creates some troubles. Most hardwood ply sold as 3/4 is actually a tad under, really made to metric standards, which screws up a fixed 3/4 rabbet.

Measure twice, cut once.

Are you telling me it"s NOT a commie plot?:confused:

Gary K.

[Pat Germain]

Gee, I didn't realize this was such a lively topic. I wasn't suggesting one system was better than the other. Metric is just more comfortable for me. :) As I suspected, buying wood likely would require me to do some conversions.

As for the military, I can tell you as a Navy veteran and a defense contractor that they are all over the place. I support a computer system which includes a map of the world. One of the most used features of my computer system is the window where you can convert Nautical Miles, Statute Miles, Kilometers, UTM Coordinates, Georeference coordinates, etc.

One standard the military does have is time: Almost everything is "Zulu" or GMT. :cool:

[Jim Becker]

I actually would consider moving my shop to metric at some point when I have the time to contemplate the change. Most of my equipment is already set up for it. It will really come down to some of the little details, such as layout tools and most importantly, brain retraining.

But it's largely not a major issue given I work with story sticks so much...very few "actual" measurements are taken outside of checking on myself and for certain mathematical needs.

[Rob Wright]

I would have no problem using either. I find that it is easy to use, and as long I wasn't trying to build a house or other carpentry with 2x dimesioned lumber, wood working would not be a problem.

I also went to school hearing that this is what we will be using in the future. In engineering school 90% of our teaching was in metric. I went to school for civil/structural engineering. When I got out of school our State Department of Transportation had just changed from English to SI. Well surveying on the SI system is tough for most people. All land records are based on things like chains, rods, links, etc. that are based in th English system. Converting old records from one system to another was a major source of errors. All local land records also were now trying to read a transportation project plat that was done in metric and trying to relate these.

Are you measuring in feet, survey-feet, or international feet sir? they are all different.

Also - the road builders lobby really got on the DOT - none of the builders could figure out the measurements. They were always converting back to English. All roadway widths pipe sizes etc. were soft conversions. A 12-inch pipe was now 300mm not 304.8mm. 3-years later and millions of $ to change to metric, it was all thrown out the door and English was back in.


-R

[Randy Redding]

I once heard a joke, Bob and Doug MacKensy sp.?, I think, that went something like this; I just got a metric six-pack, it had ten beers in it!

Is that incentive for anyone? :)

I think the half metric / half english is the worst of both worlds. Spending time doing the conversions and the errors that creep in can be a waste of time. Isn't that a contributing factor in a failed Mars mission not too long ago? I too would like US to go metric. It would simplify design, international business and probably reduce business costs too. Realistically though, it will take some time to happen.

I'm brand new to the forum and from what I've seen, I'll soon be a contributor. I'm a hobby woodworker and can use all the help I can get. I see valuable information across the board. Looks like a great group!

[Jeff Raymond]

Are you telling me it"s NOT a commie plot?:confused:

Gary K.


It is possible that it is a Commie plot, but then again, consider the source:

http://home.no.net/holodoc/ordinary1.jpg

[Dan Racette]

Love it.
I believe, though, that both systems are going to get you the results you need.
Personnally, I make more mistakes in Imperial, so I tend not to use it as much. I use what I need to use to communicate with others. Some vendors need metric, other Imperial. I use what I like when I can.

I do agree with Jim, though, that story sticks are used more than measuring, as I true to use direct measurement whenever possible.

As far as Pat's original question, you can't really "GO" metric for a few reasons, IMHO, lumber is the biggest to me.

Personally, I enjoy knowing all the systems! The more knowledge the better.

Dan

[Wilbur Pan]

One reason I like the fractional system is that it is based on "halves and doubles". For instance, 3/8 will always be half of 3/4, 3/16 will always be half of 3/8, and so on...forever. This makes things very easy when you want to center a groove or choose the right size for a mortise.

Conversely, If I measure a piece of wood and it comes up 17mm, then I will have to go to 8.5mm, and then to 4.25mm and so on. Since I have not seen any rule that has tenths of a mm (or even half-mm's) this becomes an "estimation" thing. Perhaps these things do exist and I just haven't seen one though.

From what I've seen, woodworkers in Europe who use metric tend to base their measurements around 24 mm chunks, which is pretty close to an inch. 24 mm is great because it can be divided by 2, 3, 4, 6, and 12, which makes halving and quartering easy. It is easier to divide by thirds using this than using inches.

Guesstimating less than 1 mm is still pretty accurate as well. Using a standard metric rule marked in mm, you should be able to be accurate to within 0.5 mm, which is slightly more than 1/64". This level of accuracy should be good enough for most woodworking, and probably better than using inches, where most people would measure down to 1/32" accuracy, which is more than 0.5 mm.

In your example, to measure 4.25 mm, it is true that you would need a metric ruler marked in at least 0.1 mm intervals, but keep in mind that this is like having an inch ruler marked in 1/256" intervals.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Metrics are inherently more dangerous to work in than the standard inch system.

It is a fact that more (and more serious) industrial accidents happen when people are using metrics than the inch standard system.

[Al Willits]

Having been mostly blue collar, and decided at one point to work on Japanese motorcycles, I now have a garage full of metric and standard tools, add the fact that I had several tool boxes for different useages, plus the required second and third of the more popular tools, I'm pretty well equippted to deal with either, also broke from buying all them tools too. :)

At 59 I personally don't care which way they go, just do it, getting tired of playing the, what size is this nut game, and it's be nice to only have one measurment to deal with.
Unfornately even if they went world wide with one, there's still a ton of the other out there, so two sets of tools would still be needed for quite awhile.

Both have their good and bad points, not sure which I perfer.

Al

[Jim Becker]

Metrics are inherently more dangerous to work in than the standard inch system.

It is a fact that more (and more serious) industrial accidents happen when people are using metrics than the inch standard system.

Huh??? Outside of confusion when switching between them....such as what happened with one of the space exploration projects a few years ago...why would a measuring system be more dangerous? Make no sense...please explain in more detail what you man, especially since you claim "it is a fact".

[Gary Keedwell]

Metrics are inherently more dangerous to work in than the standard inch system.

It is a fact that more (and more serious) industrial accidents happen when people are using metrics than the inch standard system.
I thought so.....I've been a bit clumsy lately...think I'll stick to the Imperial;)

Gary K.

[James Phillips]

I come with no axe to grind but a need to answer my questions for those more stupid.
I see some advantage for measuring small distances for tools ect in metric and have a digital caliper that will give me drill sizes ect in both.
My question is how we do in metric in something like 5 feet. How do you write down measurements that are over the meter. Harry

5 ft is about 1 meter and 54 centimeters. Use multiple meters just like multiple feet

[Pat Germain]

Metrics are inherently more dangerous to work in than the standard inch system.

It is a fact that more (and more serious) industrial accidents happen when people are using metrics than the inch standard system.

That would make sense considering the vast majority of world industry uses the metric system. Therefore, most industrial accidents would be affiliated with the metric system.

[Ed Falis]

Metrics are inherently more dangerous to work in than the standard inch system.

It is a fact that more (and more serious) industrial accidents happen when people are using metrics than the inch standard system.

Cliff, I suspect there's a smiley you forgot to use? But if not, a reference would be nice to see.

- Ed

[Rod Sheridan]

Canada went to the metric system in the 1970's, yet many people use the imperial system of measurement to this date.

Note that we do not use the US system, we use the BE system (British Engineering).

In the shop at home I use the metric system 90% of the time. Some woodworking projects such as cabinets using the 32mm system were designed in metric, the parts are metric, and of course that is the easiest system to use for those projects.

When I use an older drawing, in Imperial measurements, I use the imperial system.

New drawings that I make are now metric, since I have to surface and plane wood, why not plane it to 20mm thickness?? It's just a measurement, and there aren't any fractions, making it "calculator friendly".

My children, who are both adults now, have never used the imperial system, joining the other 95% of the world who don't use it either.

Regards, Rod.

[Roy Harding]

I'm in Canada - we switched to Metric when I was a young teenager. I was then in the military for 25 years before becoming a cabinetmaker (which reinforced the metric system - kilometres, etcetera).

I have no preference for either system - but I've noted a few personal oddities regarding which system I use for various things.

When doing construction work (renovations around the house - that type of thing) I use Imperial.

When talking about body measurements (weight/height) I use Imperial.

When talking distance (like a car trip) - I use Metric.

When designing and building furniture or cabinets, I use Metric.

I don't think either system is inherently "better" - each has its own quirks and advantages - but I agree with someone who posted earlier that errors begin to creep in if you start doing conversions in the middle of a project. If I'm using a plan that was drawn in inches - then I do the construction in inches. If metric - then metric.

My personal point of view - use whichever system is comfortable for you - but try not to mix the two!

[John Schreiber]

From what I've seen, woodworkers in Europe who use metric tend to base their measurements around 24 mm chunks, which is pretty close to an inch. 24 mm is great because it can be divided by 2, 3, 4, 6, and 12, which makes halving and quartering easy. It is easier to divide by thirds using this than using inches.
That's cool and clever. It's easy to think in 24s.

One of the things that really gets my goat is when you read "grab a board about 6 feet long (182.88 cm) and . . . ", like it really matters when the board is only "about" that long. Or "the temperature at the center of the sun is 15,000,000 kelvins, that's 26,999,540° Fahrenheit, like I can relate to one, but not the other.

[James Carmichael]

Yeah, I can recall some gas stations back in the early 80s posting prices per liter of gas. Must've cost them a bunch of money, cause it didn't last long.

My only beef is having to keep 2 sets of wrenches, 4 sets of sockets (regular and deep throat in Imperial and Metric, and that's just for 1 size drive). Then there's the hex-drive stuff...

[Bruce Benjamin]

Yeah, I can recall some gas stations back in the early 80s posting prices per liter of gas. Must've cost them a bunch of money, cause it didn't last long.


I don't remember this in the '80s but I do remember it during the '70s. The reason for this wasn't because anybody wanted to switch to the metric system. It was because the price of a gallon of gas went to over 99 cents for the first time and many/most mechanical gas pumps didn't have the capacity for anything over 99 cents per gallon. (who'd a thunk it?) But they could change the unit of measure to liters and therefore could keep the price per unit at under $1.00 per. People got tired of this pretty quickly so it didn't last too long.

Bruce

[Paul Canaris]

I use metric with designs of my own. But it's a pain when you working with existing plans in inches as the conversions tend to introduce inaccuracies.
I will say this, with metric I make fewer mistakes then I once did.

[James Carmichael]

It was because the price of a gallon of gas went to over 99 cents for the first time and many/most mechanical gas pumps didn't have the capacity for anything over 99 cents per gallon. (who'd a thunk it?)
Bruce

Hmm, didn't think of that, but then I don't know why they wouldn't post prices in 1/4-gallon units (even though 1 liter is almost exactly the same).

Lotsa folks (myself included) looked at price-per-liter and had no idea what they were paying for gas

[Bruce Benjamin]

Hmm, didn't think of that, but then I don't know why they wouldn't post prices in 1/4-gallon units (even though 1 liter is almost exactly the same).

Lotsa folks (myself included) looked at price-per-liter and had no idea what they were paying for gas


I was just a kid back then so I don't really know why they didn't just use quarts. But I'd guess that the pumps were probably manufactured for sale in both the US and Canada. One place used gallons, the other liters. neither sold gas in quarts so there was no need for that option inside the pump. But...Who knows? I do know that it might not be long before a quart or a liter of gas costs more than a dollar. It's a good thing that those old pumps aren't still around. The dollar numbers would be spinning so fast now that they'd burn up! ;)

Bruce

[Gary Curtis]

Pat,

I had the same question at the beginning of the year. In order to ask people in a country that recently converted from English(or Imperial) to Metric, I posted on an WW Australian forum. They converted to Metric about 25 years ago, so many of the guys there would likely have an opinion.

I was surprised. First, what is clear (factual) and what is not (subjective)

If you are doing formulas, or subtracting and adding, or converting from surface measures to volume measures, Metric is clearly better.

However the Australian responders (there were about 50 posts on the thread) said that for measures larger than 2 or 3 feet, English inches/feet/yards can be digested. Whereas a large metric number, such as 2700 mm doesn't call up a picture in the mind of anything tangible. So small for Metric is good, large for imperial is good. Hello carpenters, bye bye furniture people.

Those are the 'clear' and obvious reactions to the two systems. On the 'unclear', or should I say, "subjective" side there was near uniformity. The younger a person is when he learns either system, the more comfortable he or she will be. When the Australian education system began teaching metrics to youngsters in school, they did fine and grew up knowing metrics. Older folks longed for the good old days when a pint of beer was a measure of friendship at the local pub.

Why did I ask this question in the first place? My shop was finished at the start of the year and I figured that since I'm learning everything from scratch, why not start off on the right foot. But because I have one machine in the shop that is metric and has metric tooling, I've learned both systems. Gotta run. Have to see my psychiatrist to resolve inch/mm conflicts.:)

Gary Curtis

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

That would make sense considering the vast majority of world industry uses the metric system. Therefore, most industrial accidents would be affiliated with the metric system.


SHHHHH~!!!!!

Don't give the details away~!!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff, I suspect there's a smiley you forgot to use? But if not, a reference would be nice to see.

- Ed

Oh no it is absolutely true that there are more injuries using metric measurement than any other.











I should go into politics.

[John Stevens]

Have any of my fellow Yanks gone metric?

Inside my own shop, I've gone metric. In almost all circumstances, I've found artithmetic easier to deal with in metric units. It may be easier to halve a simple fraction than a decimal, but how easy is it to halve, say 5 3/16" compared to 128mm? Or 129mm for that matter?

Yeah, I have to convert to buy wood, but once you know a few key approximations, it's easy. For example, around 25mm per inch, 300mm per foot, etc. Another way to develop a "feel" for metric measurements is to measure your index finger, hand and forearm with a metric rule. Hope this helps.

Regards,

John

[Andrew Williams]

Easy, did that in my head...

2 1/2 plus 3/32 is 2 19/32 and it is on my ruler too. Unfortunately 64.5mm is not, I would have to purchase one that reads in half-mm's. The kicker is regressing down one more half, where you could easily purchase a rule that showed 1 1/4 plus 3/64 or 1 19/64 but quarter mils are pretty rare on a rule.





Inside my own shop, I've gone metric. In almost all circumstances, I've found artithmetic easier to deal with in metric units. It may be easier to halve a simple fraction than a decimal, but how easy is it to halve, say 5 3/16" compared to 128mm? Or 129mm for that matter?

Yeah, I have to convert to buy wood, but once you know a few key approximations, it's easy. For example, around 25mm per inch, 300mm per foot, etc. Another way to develop a "feel" for metric measurements is to measure your index finger, hand and forearm with a metric rule. Hope this helps.

Regards,

John

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,


Another way to develop a "feel" for metric measurements is to measure your index finger, hand and forearm with a metric rule. Hope this helps.
LOL!
My shop area is IXXV cubits by XXV cubits doing it that way. :D

Anyhow - timely thread since I was wondering as a newbie if it would be easier to measure things in metric.

Andrew made a good point about 2 19/32nds being on the ruler though. I guess I'll stick to non-metric.

[Wilbur Pan]

Easy, did that in my head...

2 1/2 plus 3/32 is 2 19/32 and it is on my ruler too. Unfortunately 64.5mm is not, I would have to purchase one that reads in half-mm's. The kicker is regressing down one more half, where you could easily purchase a rule that showed 1 1/4 plus 3/64 or 1 19/64 but quarter mils are pretty rare on a rule.

1 mm = 0.039 inches. With a rule marked in mm, you should be able to get accuracy to 0.5 mm, which is 0.020 inches, just like you should be able to get 1/32" accuracy with a a ruler marked in 1/16ths.

0.5 mm accuracy is better than measuring to 1/32", and is only 0.004" less accurate than measuring to 1/64".

[joe greiner]

Rob Wright mentioned his experience with DOT projects. We went through the same exercise in Florida. I don't remember the contractors complaining, but the whole thing fell out of bed over right-of-way acquisition, which is usually the most expensive and time-consuming part of the process.

In a similar vein, John Schreiber touched on the problem of significant figures. This is fundamental to any system of measurements. On one project, we converted our plans from Imperial to metric; all done in CAD, of course. CAD reports dimensions to 0.0001 ft unless over-ridden; no problem, take it with a grain of salt. Upon conversion, one measurement became "accurate" to 0.0001mm; this is almost to the nearest molecule! We all know that normal body temperature is 98.6 deg Fahrenheit, right? Not so. Original research was reported to the nearest 1 deg Celsius (Centigrade then) of 37 deg C (TWO significant figures); conversion resulted in our beloved 98.6F; lo and behold, THREE significant figures. "About" 1 ft is "about" 300mm, not "about" 304.8mm as too often reported.

End of rant.

Joe

[Henry Cavanaugh]

I remember many moons ago that the US started converting to metric. Some manufactures etc made the conversion then what happen? I use the Imperial system but who knows if my future Dominio purchase will change that any.

[Greg Cole]

I was all but forced to convert by my day job... I work for a company that rep's Euro manufactured machinery and also a line of stuff from Australia.... ya either get on the metric bus or you will be converting # forever. Everything from power ratings horsies to kW, foot pounds to neuton meters... dimensions etc.
As all my Euro counterparts like to say.. if you can count, you can use the metric system...:D
One thing about the shop at home is to slave all your tools-tooling to your measuring system.....


Greg

[Jim Becker]

So the real question should perhaps be: Does it really matter what measuring system you use in your shop as long as you get consistent results? The reason I pose that is that while I'm somewhat of a proponent of "universal" global standards as the ideal...metric, GSM for wireless, etc...the reality is that it will never happen, at least in our lifetimes, if ever. So it's really more of an issue of relevance, rather than something larger and grander.

In our shops, I believe we are all best served by using our own unit system of choice for those few critical/initial references and then taking exact "measurements" directly off our work for everything else. You can't beat exact and there doesn't have to be a number attached to it. Just a distance marked on a stick with a #2 pencil. :) I work that way now, more or less, and will continue to do so, even if I opt to do the metric thing at some point.

[Jerry O'Brien]

In the sciences we are already there. I am in the electrical business and we use metric every day. We use kilo-watts and micro-farads. We look for mili-amps and kilo-volts. Talk to anyone that is in chemistry or physics and they will say the same. They deal in grams and miligrams and namometers of sound.

Seems like we are kind of already there.

The rub comes from history and expectations. Yellow and green are the two most recognizable colors to the human eye because they are in the middle of the spectrum. But, when some communities tried to make fire engines a nasty yellow - green a few years ago for the reason stated above, they were turned down. People expect a fire engine to be, guess what, RED.


Metric is much easier from a mental stand point, unless you are a machinist and can easily deal with the decimals. It seems that what is a snowstorm to one person can possibly be a ski trip to another.

Jerry O'Brien

[Bill White]

that designing cabs (as I do for a living) would be much easier in metrics. I have found that most folks spend too much time and effort trying to "convert". Just measure and go. That cabinet won't know if it is metric or imperial.
Bill

[John Stevens]

Andrew made a good point about 2 19/32nds being on the ruler though.

Really? 64.5mm is right on my 600mm rule, my 150mm pocket rule, my 100mm double square and my 300mm Starrett square. Besides, how easy is it to find 19/32nds on any rule? "Hmm, that's one mark up from what...umm, 18/32 is 9/16ths...yeah, so it's one mark beyond 9/16ths...which is 1/16 up from the 1/2 mark...so 9/16ths is here...now go one little mark up..." And we're only talking about dividing by half! How about dividing into thirds, multiplying by five, adding the heights of six graduated drawers, etc?

Regards,

John

[Ed Garrett]

Good Question!

I go metric when I can. I like the size of millimeters and I like to be precise. I tend to make my own designs using lots of math including trig. I sure find it easier using decimals. If I must use inches, I often convert the fractions to decimals before I start crunching the numbers. I also keep an engineer's scale handy which has tenths of inches. If the math gets very involved, fractions become absurd.

I believe it would be easiest if the wood, tools, and measuring gear were all metric, but I don't see that in my lifetime.

Being anal in the workshop, I also enjoy one other technique: I often hold one a board up to whatever I'm building, make a pencil mark, and then cut. But no I don't cut the pencil line in half. I cut the piece slightly large and then shave it several times on the table saw until it just fits tightly into place with a few taps of the mallet.

[Al Willits]

A lot seems to depend on what I'm doing as to what meausrment I use, 90% of all the woodworking plans I use come in inches, so that's what I use there and for most woodworking projects.
When dealing with metric tools or parts, metric it is.

Rarely do I try and convert, to easy to make mistakes for me.

Al

[Larry Conely]

I have scales in my shop with inches in 64ths, inches in 100ths, metric, picas, points, and agates. I work with whatever is easy on the project.

I worked in Australia for a few years. Imperial measures were prohibited. My inch rulers were something of a novelty. There were people there who still expressed weight in stones, which precedes Imperial measure.

I guess people will use whatever they are comfortable with.

[Ronald Seto]

I was in elementary school during the Carter administration. Those who are old enough will likely recall that Carter wanted the US to go metric. Therefore, I recieved lots of instruction on the metric system in school. I was quite good at it. Of course, the US never really went metric. Then I had to flail to compensate to the inch-pound system.

When I'm doing woodworking, I can get by using inches and feet. But boy, going metric sure sounds nice. For me, anyway, it would be much easier because metric is first nature while fractions of inches are a few natures down.

Have any of my fellow Yanks gone metric? Are there any drawbacks/downsides to being in the US and doing woodworking with metric measurements? Most of my tools have both metric and inches on the tapes. Perhaps buying wood may present a challenge. :confused:

I have worked in both systems for years, but still prefer the English system. Why? Because my main problem with metric is, the inability to visualize a dimension or distance. If you ask me to estimate the length of a line in the English, I can give the answer and be pretty close, but ask me the same thing but in metrics, I can't without first converting from English. It's like speaking two languages. Are we ever completely fluent in both?

[Brian Penning]

Metric or whatever I just love it when someone asks how far it is to get somewhere and the answer is...oh, about 2 hours! LOL
There's a few other examples I can't think of.

[Randal Stevenson]

It really depends on the project and how precise things need to be.

If I am building something to fill in an area, and when measuring it, I start to see it's in between all fraction sizes, I will pull out a metric tape, and use that for the entire project.

Building a lot of something, measure and make a story stick.

Don't like those, use Bob's.:D

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

Hi,

We have been metric here since the early 70's. I find it easier to work metric as it's just a matter of a decimal....but I go backa nd forth between the two quite freely.

My grade 6 daughter has no idea what a quart, a pound or a mile are....I just smile:D The rest of the world minus the US and GB are metric, I still shake my head

[Richard M. Wolfe]

Where I work we have a guy from Argentina who is spending three months here working on some stuff related to what I do. After reading this thread I thought to ask him how it's done where he lives.

The metric system is used for most things you think the metric system would be - land in hectares, speed in km/hr, rainfall in millimeters, etc. But construction is done in the English system. Feet and inches for lumber, inches and fractions of an inch for plumbing, etc. Don't know about metalwork manufacturing but the rest is a mix like we have due to imports, etc. Be interesting to know how it holds for other countries.

Incidentally, his wife works in a dress shop - cloth is measured in yards.

[Bart Leetch]

I don't care if the whole USA converts to metric..... after I die. In any case if they convert before I die they will do it without me. I am comfortable with yards, feet, inches & fractions & will stay that way.:) :D

[David Dundas]

The rest of the world minus the US and GB are metric, I just shake my head

That should read "The rest of the world minus the US, Liberia, and Myanmar are metric, I just shake my head". GB went metric quite a few years ago, except for road signs, which are still in miles because it is too expensive to replace them all.

David

[Mike Henderson]

If you want an example of mixed systems, look at tires. The width of the tread is in mm while the size of the rim is in inches.

Mike

[Gary Keedwell]

I don't care if the whole USA converts to metric..... after I die. In any case if they convert before I die they will do it without me. I am comfortable with yards, feet, inches & fractions & will stay that way.:) :D
I'm with you Bart.:rolleyes: :D

Gary K.

[Peter Hyde]

Well as a new member to these boards my contribution is I was forced to go metric twice and I wouldn't wish it on anybody. In Britain they adopted the SI system and there are no Centimetres. I was in an industry where superficial area was the way of pricing product. Now quickly boys give me 25678mm x 46837mm. Not that easy without a calculator. A new measurement appeared at lumber yards...... wait for it 1NF 1 new foot which is 300mm. Not 30cm. Look at the size of the numbers you have to deal with.
Came to Canada and went back to Imperial for a couple of years and then got converted again. Any Canadians ever bought wood screws that aren't inches in length x No in diameter. How about finding router bits? We have the SI system but here we teach Centimetres in schools. Can you find plywood in consistant mm thickness. Industry standard is good within 1.5mm. Look at container sizes. In SI there are only 125ml, 250ml 500ml and 1 litre sizes. So why is my jar a 287ml size.
So all of you who thing metric is the answer beware! There are politicians and profits involved

[Brad Naylor]

Over here in England we use both systems.

Most people visualise in feet and inches, and then go to work in metric!

So a dining table project will be described as 5' x 3', and then the componant parts worked out in millimetres.

Rough sawn timber is sold in cubic feet, is 8 or 10 ft long, and 1", 2" thick etc.

The same piece of wood planed up at the lumber yard is sold as 20mm thick.

Sheet goods come in 8' x 4' boards, but 6mm, 12mm, 18mm, thick etc.

I make custom kitchen cabinets for a living and work out all my cutting lists on an Excel spreadsheet - this will only work using millimetres (I think!)

The secret of using the metric system successfully is to forget all about metres and centimetres - use only millimetres. So our 5' x 3' table is 1524mm x 915mm if you're being precise, or 1500mm x 900mm if you're being real!

Metres are only used for distance measurements like on road signs, or when describing areas of rooms etc.

The centimetre does not exist at all as an official unit of measurement.

The finest measuring system, however, has been totally ignored on this thread; the Bob!

http://www.bobsrule.com/articles/popular_woodworking_article-frame.htm

Cheers
Brad

[Chris Parks]

It really is a change that will take several generations in Australia. Us oldies while we use it, generally find that we think in imperial as a concept..ie, the suspect is 6 foot tall, but we do everything else in metric and it is slowly being ingrained in society. My children have never had to deal with imperial and can think in it where I have problems. I measure everything in metric and wouldn't change back for any amount of money, but ask me about horsepower & kilowatts or pressure measurements in metric I am lost as I don't use them all the time. It is only recently that I have started to express distance in K's instead of miles, that has only taken 20 years or so to gel in my mind. Once the last generation goes that was educated in the imperial system the changeover will be complete, it just takes a long time. The changeover to decimal money was relatively easy as it was in use every day and we got used to it quickly. I can't understand why a country would be half decimal as the US is. Are your domestic cars made in metric or imperial?

[Tim Malyszko]

I am an Engineer and in College, just about all our classes were taught in both Metric and Standard. 1/2 of our unit were in metric and the other half were standard. With that being said, I always preferred metric since the conversions were more straight-forward.

To this day, I still see both used in manufacturing and as an Engineer, I still prefer metric. Do I want the US to change to metric? No, probably not. Even with my vast experience with using metric on paper and in my job, I still get very confused when using it in everyday life since I am so use to standard units. Changing would cause major chaos. The only way I see it being done is to teach it at a very young age and let the future generations use to thinking in metric and then make the change.

[John Schreiber]

. . . . The finest measuring system, however, has been totally ignored on this thread; the Bob!

http://www.bobsrule.com/articles/popular_woodworking_article-frame.htm
If we were all born with 12 fingers, I have no doubt that some variation on this wonderful "Bob" system would be in place now.

[Pat Germain]

Are your domestic cars made in metric or imperial?

The answer is, (drumroll) BOTH! I think it was in the early 1980's when US domestic cars supposedely went metric. But, of course, the conversion was not complete.

I don't have a brand a new US vehicle, but I'm pretty sure the lug nuts, spark plugs, drain plugs, wheels, wiper blades, and a few other things, are still in inches. The rest of the vehicle is metric. Thus, any home mechanic must have both metric and imperial tools.

Surprisingly, Japanese imports are the same way. As for German vehicles, I have an '03 Volkswagen, and it has the same combination of metric and inch components except for the lug nuts. I don't know about BMW or Mercedes. Perhaps those two are completely proprietary. ;)

[Greg Funk]

I don't have a brand a new US vehicle, but I'm pretty sure the lug nuts, spark plugs, drain plugs, wheels, wiper blades, and a few other things, are still in inches. The rest of the vehicle is metric. Thus, any home mechanic must have both metric and imperial tools.

Surprisingly, Japanese imports are the same way. As for German vehicles, I have an '03 Volkswagen, and it has the same combination of metric and inch components except for the lug nuts. I don't know about BMW or Mercedes. Perhaps those two are completely proprietary. ;)
We have 5 German and Japanese vehicles and as far as I can tell there are zero Imperial components.

Greg

[Pat Germain]

We have 5 German and Japanese vehicles and as far as I can tell there are zero Imperial components.

Greg

Interesting. Are they newer vehicles? My 03 Jetta has 16" wheels. I haven't seen metric wheels and tires, so I'm assuming they're pretty new.

My kids have Honda Civics and the spark plugs require an imperial spark plug socket, not metric. I'm pretty sure the oil drain plugs are also imperial, but I could be wrong.

[Nissim Avrahami]

In EU everything is Metric except the Iron water pipes (you know, those that we use for the Ponny pipe clamps), they are measured in "Zall" (Tsaall) that is German for Inch.

So when I buy the pipes here in Poland, I buy the 3/4 Zall pipes...

Oh, also the TV screen size is in Inches...

niki

[Greg Funk]

Interesting. Are they newer vehicles? My 03 Jetta has 16" wheels. I haven't seen metric wheels and tires, so I'm assuming they're pretty new.

My kids have Honda Civics and the spark plugs require an imperial spark plug socket, not metric. I'm pretty sure the oil drain plugs are also imperial, but I could be wrong.
OK - Wheel sizes for all vehicles are imperial although tire widths are metric.

[Curt Harms]

Interesting. Are they newer vehicles? My 03 Jetta has 16" wheels. I haven't seen metric wheels and tires, so I'm assuming they're pretty new.

My kids have Honda Civics and the spark plugs require an imperial spark plug socket, not metric. I'm pretty sure the oil drain plugs are also imperial, but I could be wrong.

I have a 4.0L. ford ranger. The oil drain plug is definitely metric. Of course I think the engine is German. I haven't worked on much else so don't really know.

[Roy Harding]

I have a 4.0L. ford ranger. The oil drain plug is definitely metric. Of course I think the engine is German. I haven't worked on much else so don't really know.

Ford Rangers and the Mazda B series are one and the same (at least they used to be in the mid-nineties). I had a '95 Ranger XLT, and when I bought the Haynes servicing book for it, the book was titled "Ford Ranger/Mazda 2000" - or something closely approximating that (don't have the truck anymore - working from faulty memory).

It was a good little truck - my son has a Mazda B series - it's also a good little truck.

On the Ranger, I found some parts (engine) were metric, and some parts (body) were Imperial - I just assumed it had a Mazda engine and carried on.

[Curt Harms]

Ford Rangers and the Mazda B series are one and the same (at least they used to be in the mid-nineties). I had a '95 Ranger XLT, and when I bought the Haynes servicing book for it, the book was titled "Ford Ranger/Mazda 2000" - or something closely approximating that (don't have the truck anymore - working from faulty memory).

It was a good little truck - my son has a Mazda B series - it's also a good little truck.

On the Ranger, I found some parts (engine) were metric, and some parts (body) were Imperial - I just assumed it had a Mazda engine and carried on.

Yup, Mazda B series and Ford Ranger are pretty much the same AFAIK, sort of like Chevy & GMC pickups.