Time to build some cabinets

[Brett Elliott]

I've done a bit of searching through old posts, but I haven't quite found my answer. I'm getting ready to build some cabinets for my garage. Nothing fancy--they're inspired by Norm's garage cabinets from his two part show on building garage cabinets.

My question is about the assembly. After cutting everything up, he applies glue and brads. What about those of us with no air compressors and no air nailers? I can't just shoot brads in. What can I do instead? Any suggestions?

Thanks!
Brett

[Peter Pedisich]

Brett,

Before I got a nailer/compressor I'd assemble with clamps and then screw the sub assemblies into a cabinet. Time consuming but it's all I had and sometimes I used nails and a hammer.

Pete

[Bill Huber]

For about $60 you could get an electric brad nailer.

I glued things up and used finishing nails and has been said, it take a lot of time.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I would glue and screw them together. I've used pocket hole screws in the past but regular screws and glue are good too.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with just nails and glue but if it works I would be tempted to go that way to try it. It sounds like a lot more fun. :) For the people who have gone that way, what kind of joints have you used?

[glenn bradley]

Kreg 'mini' pocket hole jig. Includes single jig, bit, stop and wrench . .. $20 at the BORG. Box of screws - $5.

[Todd Jensen]

Yup, screws. They may be more time consuming than brads, but stronger. I wouldn't get an electric nailer unless your building cedar birdhouses. Also, if you need to speed assembly you might hand nail some pins to get things initially assembled so you can pre-drill and drive screws.

[Brett Elliott]

Hey all,

Thanks for the replies. I forgot to mention that I'd be using dados as well. I though the brads were used to hold the pieces straight in the dados while the glue dried.

The idea of pocket screws intrigues me, but it seems like dados would be stronger for things like shelves. Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Brett

[Byron Trantham]

Another vote for pocket hole screws. Nothing stronger IMHO.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Brett,

The brads are just there to hold the jointery together while the glue dries. If you have the time and the clamps, glue alone will work just fine as long as you have good jointery. But, all the glue in the world won't fix a sloppy joint.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello Brett,
I spent all of yesterday with 2 compressors and bunch of different nailers - a framing nailer, a palm nailer, a finishing nailer, a brad nailer and another brad nailer using staples.
I'd have to say that next to a 3/8" electric drill, a compressor (or two) is about the handiest thing you can have around the house/shop.
Once you get one and use it, you'll wonder how you ever got along without one.

Out of pure morbid curiosity I hooked my Bostich framing nailer up to my tiny 1 gal, 1/8HP Coleman $49.00 (inluding a cheap 18ga nailer/stapler that I haven't been able to kill!) compressor.
I was kind of surprised when it actually drove three 3" nails flush into the 2x4's before the pump cycled!

I looked at the Harbor Freight website and see that they offer a similar small compressor for about $50. The one they have looks a little better than the Coleman I have. My Coleman lacks any sort of pressure regulator except the one I put on it.

It might be time to "take the plunge" and buy a compressor and a brad nailer.

[Homer Faucett]

I would use pocket screws. I cannot imagine that dadoes and glue alone would be stronger than glue and pocket screws. Plus, you need far fewer clamps for assembly. It's quick, and it's better than an electric brad nailer.

On a side note, I would buy a small, cheap pancake compressor and HF brad nailer before I would use an electric one. I've been using that combo for about 5 years with no problems. (Edit--I see Rich beat me to it while I was typing!)

[Brett Elliott]

It may well be that time, but as they say, "The poor man pays twice." I've proven this to myself many times with my other hobby (photography).

Thanks,
Brett

[Brett Elliott]

Might anyone be able to point to me a book, article, webpage, photo, or anything that might give me some guidance on how to use pocket joinery for asembling cabinets?

Heck, a picture of something put together would probably show me enough to get me going.

Thanks!
Brett

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello Homer,
Great minds :D.

I forgot to mention above I was glad to see a couple of negatives on the electric nailers. I was 50/50 about picking up the cheap Coleman vs an electric nailer.
In the end I bought the Coleman simply because it came with an assortment of brads/staples that I fiured I could use even if the compressor was a flop.

Turn out, the little compressor has done splendid!
The free brads OTOH turned out to be junk and I tossed them.

Go figure ! :D

[Frederick Rowe]

Brett,
Here is a link to one of the Kreg Jig Product Manuals. Plenty of illustrations on joinery used in building cabinets.

http://www.kregtool.com/education_center/manuals/R3_Manual-tri-lingual.pdf

A lot of good advise here on the subject of brad nailers. Air nailers can speed up assembly, but if the purpose is to hold until the glue dries, then you can substitute any combination of clamps, cauls, masking tape, and the like. When at all possible, I avoid the use of brads anywhere that can be seen, such as edge banding. In other areas of cabinetry, such as toe nailing 3/4" ply sides, they provide a substantial mechanical joint.

Air powered nailers are a great tool. The prices for compressors guns themselves has come down quite a bit in the last several years. Consider starting with a pin nailer. It can be used in lieu of a brad nail in many applications, and leaves a tiny hole. Also, look into an air stapler. In specific applications such as affixing 1/4" ply to the back of a cabinet, the strength of a staple is unmatched.

As many have said before, if your joinery is good, the lack of an air nailer won't impede your work. If you joinery is sloppy, no amount of glue and nails will correct it.

[frank shic]

brett, if this is your first time building cabinets, i would HIGHLY recommend the danny proulx book on building your own kitchen cabinets which even gives you the cutlists for face frame and frameless cabinets. i used to clamp and screw and now i wonder why it took me so long to (finish)nail and screw! it's MUCH faster and the clamps don't get in the way not he mention that the cabinet is a lot easier to manipulate without all those heavy bessey clamp getting in the way. the kreg pocket holes will work as well except don't expect to get perfectly flush joints and you will still need some other clamping method. the other reason i don't use them is that the pockets will show on the bottom of upper cabinets unless you 'skin' them with another piece of veneer.

[Brett Elliott]

The manual! Genius! I a bit embarassed I didn't think of it myself.

Thanks!
Brett

[Homer Faucett]

Do yourself a favor and borrow/check out/buy the Danny Proulx book and the Jim Tolpin book on building kitchen cabinets. You can usually pick them up used from someone here, Amazon, or elsewhere, and the insight you will get from them is immeasurable.

Homer


Might anyone be able to point to me a book, article, webpage, photo, or anything that might give me some guidance on how to use pocket joinery for asembling cabinets?

Heck, a picture of something put together would probably show me enough to get me going.

Thanks!
Brett

[Luciano Burtini]

Back in the "old days" we used cordless nailers that (almost) everyone owns. A handful of 1-½" finishing nails and a bottle of glue and you're in business. You may want to invest in a nailset if you don't already have one as well.

http://www.sweetpeabicycles.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/06/carpenter.jpg

[Michael Schwartz]

I allwayse use pocket screws for my carcases, and drawers if I am not using a box joint or dovetail. Keep things simple, make simple boxes, and then make an applied base which makes instalation and construction easier, as you can level the base, set the boxes ontop of it and screw them into the wall. (I drill pocket holes and use 2-1/2 inch pocket screws for this as well.

If you can get a brad nailer it will make your life easier. I generaly tack the carcase together with brads and then put in my pocket screws, check the diagonals for squqare, correct and hold it with a pipe clamp, either nail or screw the back panel on, or atach a diagonal brace until the face frame is on and I am ready to attach the back.

[Alfred Clem]

About 20 years ago, when I started assembling a workshop in our garage, I built cabinets of particle board and plywood, hung from French cleats around the walls. These cabinets were held together with drywall screws and yellow glue. The doors were made of 1x4 pine and the door panels made of peg board. All were painted and hung with care.

After 20 years these cabinets still stand. I wish I had had a nail gun and compressor back when I built those boxes. Would they have turned out better? Maybe yes, maybe no. I watch Norm do his thing with his brad nails, and I know how much easier they make the job. But you can do it just fine. Takes more work. But what's the hurry?

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hey guys, Are we talking about using nails and glue with butt joints? For that it would seem screws/glue would be better. Whadaya think?

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello Alan,

RE: Screws vs nails & other fasteners including biscuits.
I tend to use all three - actually staples rather than brads where appearance isn't a concern.
I've also used pocket screws and the occasional dowel rod, depending on the material - dowels and particle board seem to go together well.

In my limited experience, what seems to work best for me is to:
- glue
- clamp
- shoot a fastener
- realign as needed
- shoot another fastener to hold the alignment
- drill a screw hole - or 2 or 10, countersink and drive screws.
- for particle board - I drill a 1/4" hole and glue in a dowel at each end and one in the center.

I worked up this method mostly by trial and error (lot's of error :D).

Generally, I don't rely on the brads for any permanent strength. I use them only as small "clamps" to hold things while the glue sets and/or until I can drive a screw.

[frank shic]

no glue for me if i can avoid it! too messy (squeeze-out, anyone?) and makes it harder to undo the joint if you make a mistake. (pin) nails and screws are all i use.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hello Alan,

RE: Screws vs nails & other fasteners including biscuits.
I tend to use all three - actually staples rather than brads where appearance isn't a concern.
I've also used pocket screws and the occasional dowel rod, depending on the material - dowels and particle board seem to go together well.

In my limited experience, what seems to work best for me is to:
- glue
- clamp
- shoot a fastener
- realign as needed
- shoot another fastener to hold the alignment
- drill a screw hole - or 2 or 10, countersink and drive screws.
- for particle board - I drill a 1/4" hole and glue in a dowel at each end and one in the center.

I worked up this method mostly by trial and error (lot's of error :D).

Generally, I don't rely on the brads for any permanent strength. I use them only as small "clamps" to hold things while the glue sets and/or until I can drive a screw.

Rich,

Your method makes sense to me. It would seem that unless you have a good locking joint you need more than just nailing and glue. I'd like to hear other opinions on this. How does Norm do it and what joints does he use?

[Brett Elliott]

How does Norm do it and what joints does he use?

Dado in the side of the carcass. Shelves fit into the dados. Shelves are glued and hit with a few toe nailed brads. Other times I've seen him use screws inplace of the brads.

Brett

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Thanks Brett, That makes sense as the dodo should add some strength to the joint along with gluing. So far I've made a lot of shop cabinets with pocket screws and glue(most of the time) and they seem very strudy. Next I'm going to try just regular screws and glue while being "clamped" with brad nails.

[John Stevens]

brett, if this is your first time building cabinets, i would HIGHLY recommend the danny proulx book on building your own kitchen cabinets which even gives you the cutlists for face frame and frameless cabinets. i used to clamp and screw and now i wonder why it took me so long to (finish)nail and screw! it's MUCH faster and the clamps don't get in the way not he mention that the cabinet is a lot easier to manipulate without all those heavy bessey clamp getting in the way. the kreg pocket holes will work as well except don't expect to get perfectly flush joints....

I don't have a lot of experience building cabinets (have only built ten so far) but this has been true for me, too. Danny Proulx's methods are simple & fast and the resulting cabinets are more than strong enough.

Regards,

John

[Alan Tolchinsky]

John, For those of us who don't have the book, could you give a brief description of how he assembles cabinets. Thanks Alan

[frank shic]

alan, there's no magic to proulx's cabinet assembly. he simply holds the pieces together at the corners and pre-drills followed by screwing. this is NOT a great method as your hands are not designed for prolonged clamping! i used bessey clamps in the past, moved on the firmus clamps several months ago but have settled on pin nailing as the fastest method of clamping. if you need an order of assembly: deck/top to side panel, deck/top to the other end of the side panel, insert your 1/4" back in dado or screw it on from the back, screw on the other side panel. DONE! now all you have to do is attach the doors or drawer slides.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Thanks Frank. I'm glad to see there's nothing too different than what I do. I'm always looking for a better/easier method of doing anything.

[Joe Jensen]

I've done a bit of searching through old posts, but I haven't quite found my answer. I'm getting ready to build some cabinets for my garage. Nothing fancy--they're inspired by Norm's garage cabinets from his two part show on building garage cabinets.

My question is about the assembly. After cutting everything up, he applies glue and brads. What about those of us with no air compressors and no air nailers? I can't just shoot brads in. What can I do instead? Any suggestions?

Thanks!
Brett

RANT ON:
How about working like a cabinet maker and not a carpenter. Norm's nail gun mania drives me nuts. Glue and clamps are the way to go unless you like the look of filled nail holes. I NEVER use nails on furniture. I have nail guns and they are used for construction projects and trim carpentry. Consumers never wanted nail guns until carpenter Norm started using them on TV to build psudo furniture. He has improved over the years. He now uses clamps, and usually doesn't put nails where they will show. IMHO if you want you project to look like the framer built your cabinet go ahead and use a brad nailer. If you want it to look like a craftsman built it, skip the nailer and use clamps and glue.
RANT OFF:

[frank shic]

i can understand where joe is coming from - that's the whole reason that i bought a biscuit jointer in the first place! didn't like having the annoying nail holes until i made a realization: if i put the nail holes on the OUTSIDE of the cabinet and then butt all the cabinets together, how is anyone going to be able to tell the difference? keep in mind that on exposed ends, i screw on a finished end panel from the inside. as far as building like a "carpenter" versus building like a "framer" goes, there are a fair amount of PROFESSIONAL cabinetmakers that use nail/staple guns to clamp. it's just so much faster for me since i work full-time and have two daughters to care for when i get home. maybe when i retire in another 25 years, i'll go back to clamp and gluing!

[Joe Jensen]

i can understand where joe is coming from - that's the whole reason that i bought a biscuit jointer in the first place! didn't like having the annoying nail holes until i made a realization: if i put the nail holes on the OUTSIDE of the cabinet and then butt all the cabinets together, how is anyone going to be able to tell the difference? keep in mind that on exposed ends, i screw on a finished end panel from the inside. as far as building like a "carpenter" versus building like a "framer" goes, there are a fair amount of PROFESSIONAL cabinetmakers that use nail/staple guns to clamp. it's just so much faster for me since i work full-time and have two daughters to care for when i get home. maybe when i retire in another 25 years, i'll go back to clamp and gluing!
I agree where speed is everything. I've even used the nailer on garage cabinets so my Rant came out in the wrong post.

As a hobbiest I get a ton of pleasure in the process of building. For me the building is the fun part. I've been at this for 30 years, and in the beginning Norm was a joke. He is WAY better today. I remember one episode where he couldn't make an end table as wide as he wanted because he couldn't find a board wide enough (never heard of glueups?). In several early episodes he built wide tops out of single boards, and then fastened them all the way around solid to the base or skirt. Never did show how they cracked when the weather changed :)

As I said, he is much better now, uses glue and clamps, tried to not use nails where they show, etc.

[Greg Robbins]

Nothing wrong with using a single wide board as long as you allow for movement. Much better looking than a glued up top. Wider is better.:D