SMC recommendation for a new/used scrub plane?

[Dave Sinkus]

Hi all, I though I would ask the experts. Sorry if this is a repeat of previous threads. I want to acquire a scrub plane.

The first project is rough sawn 8/4 cherry. I have purchased 3 planes for Rich Niemiec here on the Creek - they are Stanley 4C, 5, and 6. Given these parameters, I'm thinking if I start with a scrub plane on the rough sawn cherry, I have the other 3 planes to get it down to a smooth finish.

So, my research has yielded Lie Nielsen, Veritas, and ECE Primus. WHat would you do?

Thanks for your help,
Dave

[David Weaver]

I have the LN, and had the LV for a while. The only reason I don't still have the LV is because my big-handed WW buddy needed a plane, and he handed me the money to purchase the LN version so we could compare. He kept the LV, and I have the LN.

I have normal/smallish hands (tip of the pinkie to tip of thumb with hand spanned is between 8.5 and 9") and I could use either plane fine. If you have big hands, I would get the LV plane because the tote has a lot more meat to it, and allows you more room. If you have smallish to normal sized hands and you like the feel of the stanley totes, you might like the LN version more - the tote of the LV plane is definitely different feeling.

Both of them worked about the same cutting through Cherry - the LN was a bit lighter and the LV a bit heavier, and any difference in feel was due to that and the size/shape of the totes.

I don't know anything about the primus scrubber, but I wouldn't be afraid to get the LV or LN plane - they will scrub a layer of wood off with alarming ease - especially if you're used to normal jointing and smoothing.

[Dave Sinkus]

Thanks for the input, David. I think our hands are about the same size, so that was a very useful comment about the feel of the planes. I'm waiting for my box of 3 Stanley planes, so I do not have any drive time with them yet.

The ECE is a wooden scrub plane with a horn in the front to pull it through the wood. I'm just curious if any Creekers pull instead of push a plane, and if so, are all of your planes that same technique? Do have have and use both push and pull?
FYI - been leaning towards the LN.

Thanks,
Dave

[Robert Rozaieski]

I would skip the scrub all together and use what you have (ducking and running :D ). I tend to agree with a recent article that Chris Schwarz from PW wrote about the scrub plane. I think they were designed more for carpenters for use on the edges of lumber out in the field, not for use on the faces of rough sawn boards. The surface they leave on the face of a board just takes too much work to remove with a try plane. You really need to go from scrub to fore plane which makes me ask, why use the scrub at all, just start with the fore plane. I had a scrub and used it and sold it. I much prefer the progression of Fore (#5 or #6) plane to Try plane (#7 or #8) to Smooth plane.

Scrub planes didn't appear in period inventories :confused: and you may not care about that but I think it bears thought, even if you are not interested in period techniques and tools. Period craftsmen working rough lumber completely by hand went from a fore plane to a trying plane to a smooth plane. The period fore plane was usually from 14-18" long with a 2" or so iron, heavily cambered. The try plane was 20-24". So if I were you I would set up your #5 with a cambered iron for a rough cut (fore plane). Use that to rough plane your boards, then go to your #6 with a less cambered iron and a less rough cut (but not fine by any means) to bring the boards to flat. Finally, finish up with your #4 with almost no camber (but still some) and a very fine cut.

The scrub plane is just too short to begin flattening a board at all and that is truly what you are interested in when planing rough boards by hand, getting that face flat as quickly as possible. The scrub doesn't take off the high spots, it creates deep troughs which must then be leveled later. This is counterproductive to what you are trying to accomplish.

I have Rob Cosman's video and he uses a scrub but he goes from scrub to try/jointer with no fore/jack in between so he really uses his scrub as a fore plane :confused: . What you notice about his technique is that he is constantly looking for the high spots by checking and rubbing the board on the bench to mark the highs but he's not scrubbing the entire surface until he gets to side 2 and has a line to plane to. Using a true fore plane eliminates all this extra checking. Just plane across and diagonal to the grain with the fore until the board is relatively flat. Then finish flattening with the try plane. The length of the plane will control where the wood is removed from (high spots) so you don't need to constantly check. :D

Your #6 can serve as a short try plane and should work ok if you are using shorter boards. If you really have to buy a plane ;) , I would suggest a longer plane like a #7 or #8 rather than a scrub. I don't see much use for a scrub unless you want to plane the edge of a board down real quick, but then I would use my fore plane or drawknife for that :D . But that's just my opinion. YMMV.

Sorry for the long post. This ended up longer than expected :o. Ok, I'm off my soapbox :).

Bob

[Mike Henderson]

I agree with the previous posters - you really don't need a scrub to flatten a board. You can do it with the existing planes you have.

Just a comment. Stock preparation is hard work and you usually don't get as good of results as you can get with power equipment. If I have access to a power jointer and planer, I'll use that for stock preparation, saving my planes for finish work - but if for some reason I don't have access to power tools, I'll prepare the stock by hand.

I think all woodworkers should learn to prepare stock by hand, if for no other reason than to appreciate the work our ancestors had to go through to build the furniture that passed down to us (around pre 1850 furniture).

I have a Stanley #40 scrub plane but don't use it unless the wood is really "out" and I want to remove a lot in a hurry.

And if you do decide to buy a scrub plane, an older Stanely #40 is a good choice. A scrub plane is not a precision tool so almost anything will do. You can even build one out of wood, if you have an iron that you can use.

Mike

[Eric Sink]

No, you don't really need a scrub plane.

But I bought the LV scrub, and it's a heckuva lot of fun to use. :D

So, you may not need a scrub plane. But you do want a scrub plane.

[Dave Sinkus]

David, Robert, Mike, Eric
Thanks for the advice and your knowledge and experience.


First, the answer to the easiest question from Eric:


No, you don't really need a scrub plane.

But I bought the LV scrub, and it's a heckuva lot of fun to use. :D

So, you may not need a scrub plane. But you do want a scrub plane.

Well, yea I could use a new tool:) But want I really want is a power planer:cool: But I'm actually being prudent on this particular project and I'll go crazy with a bandsaw and a lathe first.

David, Robert, Mike, Thanks for your input....I see how I can use the planes I have and maybe just buy a #8. That is good to know.

Thanks Again.
Dave

[Wendell Wilkerson]

I have Rob Cosman's video and he uses a scrub but he goes from scrub to try/jointer with no fore/jack in between so he really uses his scrub as a fore plane :confused: . What you notice about his technique is that he is constantly looking for the high spots by checking and rubbing the board on the bench to mark the highs but he's not scrubbing the entire surface until he gets to side 2 and has a line to plane to. Using a true fore plane eliminates all this extra checking. Just plane across and diagonal to the grain with the fore until the board is relatively flat. Then finish flattening with the try plane. The length of the plane will control where the wood is removed from (high spots) so you don't need to constantly check. :D


If you really want to see a difference between using a scrub and using a fore/jack plane as the first step, watch Chris Schwarz's video and compare to it Rob's method. As Bob said, Rob is constantly checking the high spots and removing them with the scrub. I believe Chris checks the board he's flattening twice during the initial rough flattening step. Once when he thinks he's close to being done with the fore/jack plane and again after he's finished removing the high corner he found on his first check. He can do this because he knows the longer sole of the fore/jack won't create an inadvertent low spot like a scrub potentially could. That was enough evidence for me to buy into his method.

I would second Bob's recommendation to make do with the planes you have for the course (#5) and fine (#4) steps and look for a #7 or #8 for the step in between the initial flattening and final smoothing.

Wendell

[Paul Saffold]

I've been following these post because I'm in a similar situation. I have 2 # 4s, a LV and a Stanley 4C Type 11 that was my granddads. I'm thinking of getting a LV BU jack to serve as a jack/try. I'm only trying to flatten one side. I'll burn electrons and use a thickness planer after that. Do you think I can get by without buying a true jointer (7 or 8)?

Is the video of Chris Swartz flattening a board viewable on-line or must it be purchased?

Thanks for any advice.
Paul

[Steve Schoene]

You can "try out" the scrub plane concept with any of the bailey type planes. Just grind and sharpen a blade with what ever curve you want, from extreme scrub to just a bit more than the typical fore plane. Then adjust the frog to open the mouth as much as possible and you have a pretty serviceable scrub plane. If you don't like it, a few minutes on the grinder and resetting the frog and you're back to where you were before.

[Mike Henderson]

David, Robert, Mike, Thanks for your input....I see how I can use the planes I have and maybe just buy a #8. That is good to know.
Thanks Again.
Dave
This is just my opinion, but I don't think you need a #8 for flattening stock - you can do just fine with your #6 (unless you're doing really big stuff).

Most big planes, like the #7 and #8, don't get a lot of use so try your #6 before you decide to buy the #8.

Even for jointing, I use a #5 1/2 unless the board is really long. I'll stop and put a straight edge on the wood to see where I'm high and adjust my planeing to get a straight surface. I find I don't have to plane edges too often - I can often go to glue up straight from the table saw.

Mike

[added note] My advice was based on the belief that you were going to use a combination of power and hand tools. If you're going to go fully hand tools, I agree with Bob Rozaieski's post later in this thread.

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Chris Schwarz's video with the stock preparation is a DVD entitled "Course, Medium, Fine". It is published by Lie-Nielsen. There is also an article in the Feb '06 Popular Woodworking with the same title. If you buy the video, there is a PDF of the article on the DVD.

Wendell

[James Mittlefehldt]

Here's my .02 worth. I have the Lee VAlley Scrub and it works well enough, but it is a workout and no mistake. However recently I used, out of curiousity, a wooden jointer, (21 3/4 inches) to take the rough grain off some white pine.

To my surprise and delight it was much easier than using the scrub plane, and frankly much faster. It was still hand planing but the surface when done was much closer to smooth than you could ever achieve with a scrub, in fact except for a slight cup side to side it was almost ready for finishing.

I would not invest in the scrub plane and if I had realized before what the woodie could do, I would have saved my money. Live and learn. Oh I don't have any tailed tools so I had to figure out a solution to smoothing or have it done when I buy the stuff.

I will be trying the wooden plane on hardwood in future so we shall see how it does there.

[Jim Nardi]

I have a scrub plane and saw Rob Cosman a few years ago with his Rough to Ready show. To much work taking off the scrub marks. Then I happened upon a 16" old wooden jointer. It makes it alot easier and quicker than any metal plane for rough sizing work. Jim Kingshott Video really opened my eyes.

[Paul Saffold]

Thanks to all for the advice. First step are the DVDs. Paul

[Robert Rozaieski]

I'm thinking of getting a LV BU jack to serve as a jack/try. I'm only trying to flatten one side. I'll burn electrons and use a thickness planer after that. Do you think I can get by without buying a true jointer (7 or 8)?Paul
Can you get by? Yes. Is it ideal for surfacing and edge jointing by hand? No. You will still be doing the plane, check, plane, check, plane, check dance. However, because you are using electrons after, it's not a big deal. Don't flatten the whole face, just plane the concave face and get the outside edges flat and get any twist out. Then pass the board through the planer to get the oppposite face all flat. Then pass the side you hand planed through the planer to finish.

When working totally by hand, the length of a longer plane is an asset in flattening. Longer is always better when surfacing/flattening/edge jointing by hand. The length of the plane translates into flatter faces and edges.

For those that work with power tools (I don't) it is similar to a bench top jointer compared to a long bed 8" jointer. Can you get by with the small bench top jointer? Sure, but don't try to flatten anything too long or to wide or you will have your work cut out for you. Our ancestors knew this which is why it was common to see try and jointer planes up to and over 30" long. No one makes a plane that long today (except Clark & Williams) because few people work entirely by hand anymore. However, longer power jointer beds are all the rage :confused: .


This is just my opinion, but I don't think you need a #8 for flattening stock - you can do just fine with your #6 (unless you're doing really big stuff).Mike
If you work in mostly smaller pieces or you combine hand and power tools for your surfacing, then I agree, you can certainly get by with shorter planes. This is because, most of your surfacing and edge straightening would be done with the jointer/planer and table saw (you're really only smoothing machine marks with hand planes not working boards from rough sawn).


Most big planes, like the #7 and #8, don't get a lot of use so try your #6 before you decide to buy the #8.Mike
Again, I agree with this for those who combine hand and power as your machines do the majority of the grunt work. If you do all of your surfacing and edge straightening with hand planes, however, you will pick up the #7 or #8 every time you are in the shop (at least I do).


Even for jointing, I use a #5 1/2 unless the board is really long. I'll stop and put a straight edge on the wood to see where I'm high and adjust my planeing to get a straight surface. I find I don't have to plane edges too often - I can often go to glue up straight from the table saw.Mike
Again, here machines are used to straighten the edges. Even then, with a shorter plane like Mike's 5½ you will be checking the edge with a straight edge as Mike notes here to check for high spots. With a long plane, this is unnecessary.

If you intend to do all of your stock prep by hand (no power jointer & planer) they you will eventually see the need for a longer plane. I use my #6 mostly as a fore plane. I reach for my #7 as a try plane and my 28" transitional to edge joint. With the 28" transitional, I don't have to check to see if the edge is straight (I do check for square if a square edge is needed, but that's another post). I can feel and hear when it's straight.

It all comes down to how you work (all by hand or combination of hand and power) and what you are comfortable with. There is no one correct way. In the end we all basically can only share what works for us. I know what works for me and it's obvious from his work what works for Mike (love the Newport block front Mike!), but we work differently. I would say try out some different techniques and see what works best for the way you work.

Wow, sorry, this turned into another long post :o . I gotta stop doing this:rolleyes: .

Bob

[David Weaver]

There are a lot of opinions here about flattening stock, etc.

I will state why I, as a novice user, use a scrub.

I have access to a bunch of 8/4 and 12/4 stock that is twisted, cupped, etc, and too big to run on the 8 inch long-bed jointer that i have access to. It's otherwise beautiful wood, but it's been dried wrong, or has been sitting around too long.

I have an easier time knocking down a corner to get a board ready for the planer - with a light to moderate cut on a scrub. The following passes with a 6 set up sort of as a smoother are about 0.003" per pass and full width of the cutter, and it doesn't take long to get the scrub work flattened out and the stock ready for the machine planer. Because of this technique, I've kind of ruled out ever getting a large jointer.

Now, if you're taking passes an eighth deep, then that's a different story. It takes a while to get them out.

I have not attempted to use the scrub to thickness a board, and I wouldn't do it unless I really needed to remove a lot and wanted to play around.

But to take off a corner that is 1/4th inch high, that goes say, 8 inches from the end in length and width - it's easier to use a scrub than it is to fight a longer jointer or jack plane, and it makes the jointer cuts that are basically working the ridges from the scrub off - a lot easier make.

There may be better methods, but I actually enjoy that, and the results have been good.

I don't have a jack set up as a real jack yet, but I will soon - as soon as I can make the effort of running the corners off an A2 blade.

[paul womack]

Hi all, I though I would ask the experts. Sorry if this is a repeat of previous threads. I want to acquire a scrub plane.

The first project is rough sawn 8/4 cherry. I have purchased 3 planes for Rich Niemiec here on the Creek - they are Stanley 4C, 5, and 6. Given these parameters, I'm thinking if I start with a scrub plane on the rough sawn cherry, I have the other 3 planes to get it down to a smooth finish.

So, my research has yielded Lie Nielsen, Veritas, and ECE Primus. WHat would you do?

Thanks for your help,
Dave

A scrub plane is far more effective at stock removal than is required for simply removal saw mill marks, or final accurate flattening.

A scrub plane is used when you need a 1/2" board, and you have a 3/4" board (best not to be in this position, but if you are...)

Or when you have a truly horribly warped piece.

A scrub plane make an ideal shop-made tool project - a simple Krenovian body will wotk fine, and the mouth is MEANT to be gaping :-)

As an interesting compromise, an old 14-16" wooden jack plane, with a wide mouth and a "substantial" camber on the blade will remove stock efffectively, and represents another point on the infinitely divideable line from "rough to smooth"

BugBear

[Dan Evans]

I have two: The LN,which is great, and the Clark Williams, which is also great. A normal individual does not need two but when I bought the CW they use 17th century terminology so a jack plane was used for initial flattening. It is a wonderful tool and a joy to use although at over $200 it is expensive but worth it. They do wonderful work.

I disagree with the post about the article by Chris Swartz who said scrub planes were used by carpenters. I love Chris's articles but disagree with that statement. Go to any antique store or museum and check out the backs of true antique furniture. You can still see the scrub plane tracks in the boards. The old masters did not seem to care what the backs or insides of their work looked like.

If you do not want to purchase a new plane try buying a new replacement blade and cap iron for your #5 and put a larger than normal camber on the blaade and use that as a scrub plane. In the old days a jack was a scrub plane (see above).Last year Chris had a picture taken of himself using a jack as a scrub plane for a PW cover.

[David Weaver]

Here's another idea for a scrub for those who don't want to buy a scrub. I purchased a victor #4 without knowing what it really was. It was $10 in absolutely top shape - like brand new.

It's worthless to me because i already have a #4 and a very nice corrugated #4 1/2 bailey planes, as well as a #6 LN that's set up as sort of a super smoother - to take cuts between 0.001 and about .003" before the corners dig in (Yes, I know most people think that's dumb, but I like having more plane in most cases).

But, anyway, the reason it's worthless is because it has a huge mouth and it isn't adjustable. Guess what that huge mouth would be great for? A scrub - or even halfway between a scrub and a jack - for knocking down high corners. I know there are methods to get by without using a scrub, but it sure works well if you have a bunch of thick stock available that is twisted or cupped - and too wide for your power jointer. The following strokes with a jack or a jointer plane are easy because you're only planing the ridges until you get close to smooth. I don't even use a jack, and after reading this, I think that'll horrify a few. I have two candidates for jacks, but I haven't gotten around to the fettling to do it yet.

There are a billion ways you get get from a-b, and if your stock is square, finished nice, thicknessed to where you want it, etc. then do whatever you want to get there.

[Terek Johnson]

I have an old Stanely 40 and I love it. I don't use mine for truing boards, instead I use it in place of my Delta 12" planer for thicknessing boards. Set a mortice gauge for the desired thickness, run it around all four edges, and away I go. As fast as a power planer? Nah. But the blades on that darn machine sure get dull quick, and at $40 a set vs. 10 minutes sharpening a plane blade... you do the math. Plus as an added bonus, I don't need to put my earplugs in when using the scrub;)
However, I do agree with previous posters who lament the work necessary to eliminate the scalloping left by the scrub plane.

[Larry Rose]

I've got an old #5 with the iron ground to about a 3" radius. I use some reclaimed lumber and it works fine when I need to clean up a board that is too dirty to put into the planer or jointer. Find a spare iron, regrind it and try it out. I would rather spend the money for a LN or LV scrub somewhere else ( I can't believe I said that ).

[Bob Opsitos]

Thought occured to me:

If I have a scrub and a jack, both with the same camber to the blade and set the same depth of cut, how different will the results be? Are they often ground with similar camber for coarse stock removal?

If ground and set the same I would expect that the scallops will be the same, and the argument that the jack will create a flatter board assumes the width of the board is such that the extra length of the jack is beneficial. This assumes your going somewhere between fully cross grain or at least 45 degrees.

I've a converted modern stanley to a scrub and rather like using it. I must confess though that I usually surface by machine. The scrub is just fun. I'll have to swap the blade to one of my 7's and see what happens.

Bob

[David Weaver]

I'm assuming it would do the same thing. I don't know how often I use a scrub in a direction that the extra length would be an asset, and i often use it, even in a hollow, to remove trash from the surface of wood - before running it through the planer - like if a board gets dirty or muddy, etc.