advice on mortice chisels needed

[Jeffrey Larsen]

Hi--have been looking at different mortice chisels out there. Looks like the iles ones home with high marks; Advice for a novice wet behind the ears new member wondering about the best way to go toward getting a semireasonabley priced mortice chisel that will be good for a greenhorn to play with? Thanks in advance--Jeff

[James Mittlefehldt]

I use the Hirsch chisels and find them more than adequate to the task, they are big though, almost massive,but they do what they are supposed to do.

[Mike Henderson]

The easiest way to cut a mortise "by hand" is to drill it out first, then trim the sides with a chisel. If you do it that way, almost any chisel will work.

If you really want to chop them out by hand, the English style mortise chisels are good. Ray Iles makes a modern version but you can also purchase an older one on eBay, and the older ones can be quite good.

If you're not going to chop many mortises, you can cut them with regular bench chisels. Just sharpen them to a 30* to 35* bevel so the edge stands up a bit longer.

Mike

[Jeffrey Larsen]

Thanks gentlemen--I know so little that I have a hard time figuring out what is required and what isn't and what is good and what is bad, etc.

I guess that the method of drilling holes really gets away from the need for such a chisel .

will just wait to see whether I really need one of the pricy ones before I go that route.

Thanks! Jeff

[John Goodridge]

I like the oval bolster or pigsticker mortise chisels. I picked up old ones on eBay fairly cheap a year or so ago. I believe Tools for Working Wood carries new ones as well. They are nice and heavy.

[Robert Rozaieski]

I have the 1/4" and 3/8" Ray Isles oval bolstered mortise chisels. I'd like the 1/2" as well but I have a hard time swallowing the price of that one, though I may bite the bullet soon as I'm having a hard time finding a 1/2" vintage one in good shape. With that said, the Isles mortise chisels are tough to beat at any price. You really need to use one to understand but once you do you will swear by them.

I like having my mortise chisels (and bench chisels) the same size as my plow plane irons as I like the concept of tool slaving, therefore all of my tools are in fractional inch sizes. If this is not important to you then the Hirsch mortise chisels are also very good for about thalf the price of the Isles (I had them at one time as well), though I like the Isles better.

I don't like the drill and pare method as the tool then does not define the size of the mortise. This does not bother some folks but I believe it slows the process down greatly. When you chop a mortise, the size of the chisel defines the width of the mortise and therefore the thickness of the resulting tenon. This way you only need to set your mortise gauge (actually more of a tenon gauge) one time for all of your tenons. When you drill and pare, you need to gauge the thickness of the tenon to each mortise. Again, not that big of a deal for some people. Is one way better than the other? Nope. It all comes down to personal preference.

[David Dawkins]

Hello, Has anyone looked at the CI Fall of Sweden mortise chisels?
Thx.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hi David,

There's a thread on WoodNet about them. My thoughts there were that while I suspect the steel is fine, they appear to lack a bolster. Looks like the blade rests against the bottom ferrule. *If* that's how they are made, I don't think they are a wise choice.

Take care, Mike

[Mike Cutler]

Thanks gentlemen--I know so little that I have a hard time figuring out what is required and what isn't and what is good and what is bad, etc.

I guess that the method of drilling holes really gets away from the need for such a chisel .

will just wait to see whether I really need one of the pricy ones before I go that route.

Thanks! Jeff

I have the Robert Sorby set of mortise chisels. Nice chisels, they take a good edge and work well in the denser tropical hardwoods I gravitate towards. They're not the most expensive chisels out there, but they're not cheap either.

The pre-drilling doesn't always negate the need, or use of a mortise chisel, but it definitely clears bulk waste a lot quicker.

Nice chisels cost $$$, new, and the used market is always a viable option. No matter which way you go, buy good ones and stay away from the bargain basement junk.

[Bob Smalser]

I guess that the method of drilling holes really gets away from the need for such a chisel .


Predrilling and paring to the line is a good way to start, as larger mortises have to be done that way anyhoo.

But don't let anybody tell you it's a faster way to do it. Gee, the whole and only reason for mortise chisels is to eliminate the drilling step. Chopping furniture-sized mortises is severalfold faster than drilling and paring. The larger the slower, and once you get much above 7/8" you approach parity.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70921478.jpg

I prefer even larger mortise chisels, but these are hard to find. I once had a chance to use both Iles bolstered-pattern and the Two Cherries registered pattern, and I'd spend the extra on the Iles as it will stand more abuse and is easier to rehandle. Stay away from anything inexpensive in Japanese pattern as the edges are often brittle and chip easily.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70921748.jpg

Leverage is important for speed. With long chisels I can do the entire lower third of the mortise by scraping instead of chopping. Index the bevel flat on the far side of the mortise, give the chisel a tap, and push.

[Don C Peterson]

I'll second, and amplify what Bob said. I used to do the "drill and pare" but since I don't have a drill press, my results were unpredictable. I have several decent Japanese chisels and the obligatory Marples blue handled set. It wasn't until I sprang for a couple of the Ray Iles bolstered chisels and did some experimenting that I found I was able to cut accurate mortises with any kind of speed.

The Ray Iles chisels stand up to prying and levering much better than a pair of vintage bolstered mortise chisels I picked up, although I might have just got a couple of duds... And I learned the hard way that you don't want to do any prying with the Japanese chisels.

Basically I hog out the middle of the mortise with the mortise chisel and then carefully pare the edges with the Japanese chisels.

[Tim Sproul]

......... Gee, the whole and only reason for mortise chisels is to eliminate the drilling step. Chopping furniture-sized mortises is severalfold faster than drilling and paring. .........


Yeah, mortise chisels were meant to obviate the need for boring the waste. However, I'd say you need to consider that old techniques don't translate 100% into today's world. For example, joiners of old didn't rely on glue as the main source for joint strength whereas today, we woodworkers rely much more on glue as the main source of joint strength/joint locking. In days gone by, a mortise and tenon joint was wedged or pinned to lock it rather than depend on glue. Why? I've not seen very smooth mortise walls without paring. If you chop the mortise out quickly, the walls are no where near the smoothness and accuracy needed for a good glue bond between tenon and mortise. Given this, the glue won't provide enough strength for a lasting mortise and tenon so you'd lock the joint together mechanically. Hide glue isn't a very good gap filling glue and neither is PVA. Epoxy is ok, but still does a lot better when the fit between mortise and tenon is very smooth and uniform.

So...if you opt for the hand chopped mortise without paring, be prepared to design your mortise and tenon joinery with pinning (drawboring or regular pinning) or wedging in mind in situations where strength and durability are required.

Just my penny's thought....not even worth 2 cents :D

[Bob Smalser]

1) ...we woodworkers rely much more on glue as the main source of joint strength/joint locking.

2) ... If you chop the mortise out quickly, the walls are no where near the smoothness and accuracy needed for a good glue bond between tenon and mortise. Given this, the glue won't provide enough strength for a lasting mortise and tenon so you'd lock the joint together mechanically.

1) They shouldn't. All crossgrain glue joints will eventually break because of seasonal wood movement, although sometimes it takes 50-100 years. I can't recommend strongly enough doing restoration work on old furniture or boats to learn how various joints behave over time.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/266489671.jpg

2) The requirement for perfectly-smooth mortise walls and their relationship to gluebond strength is way over-rated these days, to the point of being precious. After 100 years of wood movement the only glue still holding in a M/T joint is a couple small patches in the center of each tenon face. Whether that surface was rough or smooth makes no difference to how the joint holds.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/245226026.jpg

Even M/T joints cut in wet wood can last 100 years or more, glue or no glue. Think all those boat and shipbuilders building on the beach stopped working because of rain? They simply lathered the usual red lead paste in there as bedding and drove them home.

At the same time, the important point often being missed by modern woodworkers is when that crossgrain gluejoint breaks, how easy is it to repair? Those overly fussy about smooth mortise walls who use unrepairable aliphatic glues have the wrong priorities entirely.

And if the M/T fits properly, requiring heel-of-the-hand or mallet driving (depending on size), and is clamped, then gap-filling glues serve no purpose at all.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't disagree with any of the points made earlier - I just giving my preferences here.

I've tried almost every type of chisel - you might even say that I'm a chiselholic - I have regular bench chisels (including some LN chisels), Japanese chisels, firmers or sash mortise chisels (long square sided chisels), and pigsticker type chisels - and I've used each of them for making a mortise. Not as many different types of chisels as Bob S. has, I'm sure, but a bunch for my little shop.

My very favorite way to make a mortise is with a horizontal slot mortiser - the mortise is just perfect and very quick. But if I do it by hand, my preference is to drill out (using a drill press) the major part of the waste and then pare to the line with a bench chisel. By drilling out smaller than the mortise, I can get sides that are smooth and even, giving a good fit for the tenon.

I realize that this is not the fastest way to make a mortise by hand but I generally don't have a lot of mortises to do at any one time and I'm more interested in precision than speed.

I generally use epoxy glue on mortises because of it's gap filling capabilities but Bob makes a good point that epoxy joints can be repaired if the glue fails.

Mike

[Joe Meazle]

Hi David,

There's a thread on WoodNet about them. My thoughts there were that while I suspect the steel is fine, they appear to lack a bolster. Looks like the blade rests against the bottom ferrule. *If* that's how they are made, I don't think they are a wise choice.

Take care, Mike

That was me asking over on WN. I am leaning towards the Ray Isles Pigstickers since I really like my AI stuff. But next time I am in Dallas I am going to inspect the CI Falls myself.

Joe

[Brian Kent]

I saw those CI Falls mortise chisels and was very tempted because of the price. I went with a pair of Iles chisels and found them to be outstanding on my first try. I would love someone else to try CI Falls and report on them (Just like when someone else buys an expensive sports car that I can look at and they can pay for).