Mr. Becker so what you think???

[Paul B. Cresti]

Jim, Curious on your view of your slider now that you have had it for a while under use:Was it worth it to you? What are the benefits? What are the drawbacks? Would you purchase it again if presented the opportunity? Would you tell someone to forego the cabinet saw and go straight to some type of slider?Would you say it is safer to use? especially for beginners?Has it given you more confidence as a woodworker in peforming more difficult tasks?Has it opened up more avenues in the way to accomplish tasks?Has it taken up too much space in your shop or has it saved space?What uses have you stumbled upon for it that you thought of before?I am sure everyone by now knows my view but I am curious to hear what others have to say.

[Jim Becker]

For reference, Paul is asking about the Mini Max S315 WS sliding table saw I installed in my shop earlier in the year (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=51276).


Jim, Curious on your view of your slider now that you have had it for a while under use: Was it worth it to you?

Absolutely, both in the near term and I believe in the long term


What are the benefits?

Safety, repeatability, precision, some new functionality (such as the scoring blade)...


What are the drawbacks?

Some learning curve for new techniques...but nothing major


Would you purchase it again if presented the opportunity?

Yes, but I certainly hope I wouldn't have to do that... ;)


Would you tell someone to forgo the cabinet saw and go straight to some type of slider?

For some folks, Yes. For some folks, No. In general, I think that a sliding saw is one of the best overall designs available, but everyone works differently and has different needs and desires. And unfortunately, the cost for a "good" machine is still well above what even many very "serious" hobbyist woodworkers can afford. Small pros, however, should definitely consider a slider seriously for their operation.


Would you say it is safer to use? especially for beginners?

Close to the "safest" on the market, relatively speaking, since for the majority of cutting, one's hands are not anywhere near the blade...even when ripping if a ripping jig is used to avoid using the conventional rip fence. The blade brake spins things down much quicker than my cabinet saw did...and many accidents happen when folks reach for a workpiece "prematurely", even though they have turned off the machine. Human nature...


Has it given you more confidence as a woodworker in performing more difficult tasks?

Some things, like a tapered cut are really difficult on a "conventional" saw and a breeze on a slider. The repeatability is wonderful for precision...outside of needing to use the correct measurement in the first place. ;)


Has it opened up more avenues in the way to accomplish tasks?

Of course...


Has it taken up too much space in your shop or has it saved space?

Space utilization in my shop is actually better...since I don't use a lot of sheet stock and keep the outrigger off the machine most of the time, I effectively have more space than I did.


What uses have you stumbled upon for it that you thought of before?

Nothing specific....but I do things at the table saw quickly now that I would have had to think through a lot more in the past. Some of them are cuts that would have been more dangerous on my cabinet saw...you can't beat being able to clamp a workpiece down to the wagon and have your hands a foot or more away from the spinning blade.

[Mark Carlson]

FYI. The latest Popular Woodworking magazine has an article on European Sliders written by Kelly Mehler. He's made the switch to a slider.

~mark

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

For reference, Paul is asking about the Mini Max S315 WS sliding table saw I installed in my shop earlier in the year (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=51276).



Absolutely, both in the near term and I believe in the long term



Safety, repeatability, precision, some new functionality (such as the scoring blade)...



Some learning curve for new techniques...but nothing major



Yes, but I certainly hope I wouldn't have to do that... ;)



For some folks, Yes. For some folks, No. In general, I think that a sliding saw is one of the best overall designs available, but everyone works differently and has different needs and desires. And unfortunately, the cost for a "good" machine is still well above what even many very "serious" hobbyist woodworkers can afford. Small pros, however, should definitely consider a slider seriously for their operation.



Close to the "safest" on the market, relatively speaking, since for the majority of cutting, one's hands are not anywhere near the blade...even when ripping if a ripping jig is used to avoid using the conventional rip fence. The blade brake spins things down much quicker than my cabinet saw did...and many accidents happen when folks reach for a workpiece "prematurely", even though they have turned off the machine. Human nature...



Some things, like a tapered cut are really difficult on a "conventional" saw and a breeze on a slider. The repeatability is wonderful for precision...outside of needing to use the correct measurement in the first place. ;)



Of course...



Space utilization in my shop is actually better...since I don't use a lot of sheet stock and keep the outrigger off the machine most of the time, I effectively have more space than I did.



Nothing specific....but I do things at the table saw quickly now that I would have had to think through a lot more in the past. Some of them are cuts that would have been more dangerous on my cabinet saw...you can't beat being able to clamp a workpiece down to the wagon and have your hands a foot or more away from the spinning blade.


What He said~!!

[Garth Keel]

JIm; I can go either way. Slider combo or just slider saw (minimax) Is there, IYO, one better than the other? Is the quality of the non saw items satisfactory?

[Paul B. Cresti]

Garth, The decision on a saw/shaper vs separate saw and shaper is entirely up to you - how you work, how much space you have and of course how much you are willing to spend. At the time I was doing ww'g full time and I needed a shaper first so I bought a shaper. It was not until a couple of months later that I ended up with my slider. Yes I spent much more money but I like separates because I tend to set one machine up for one particular task and then use another machine to augment what I am trying to achieve. In this manner I end up using all of my machines in the shop to create a part or piece as I jump from one machine to the next. In a production environment separates are a definate. In a custom ww'g business like mine, one can very easily get away with a combo. Do be aware that a shaper takes a lot of set up time....especially if you add a power feeder (which is a very good idea). Jim like I added a router station to the outfeed side of our sliders. While I do no use it for any "shaping" I use it for dadoing using my slider, check my previous posts here for a complete run down on what I did. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=28088Even though I do not think I personall would like a saw/shaper, the price sure is tempting and do not think performance of either function would be lessoned by the other.Jim,Glad you like your slider....in retro spec for me I do not know how I ever got by without one. Yes I spent a lot of money on mine but the safety I now enjoy is something I never want to go without. I can honestly say that I would rather not do any woodworking than go back to using a cabinet saw. In the same breathe I also can say that I do not use my slider in as much of a manner as I thought I would. I primarily do my rough ripping of solid stock on my bandsaw and run it through my planer for exact final dimensioning. Yes I occasionaly do rip on my slider using my ripping jig but I find it much quicker on my bandsaw. I use my slider a lot for crosscutting, mitering, beveling, sizing panels and straight line ripping. In a recent project I used it to make beveled and taper staves for a connical vanity....I have no idea how I would have done that with any cabinet saw.

[Todd Solomon]

JIm; I can go either way. Slider combo or just slider saw (minimax) Is there, IYO, one better than the other? Is the quality of the non saw items satisfactory?

Regarding quality of the non-saw items, I think european machinery is typically better than the run-of-the-mill stuff offered by companies Delta/Powermatic/Jet, Etc. Whether they're standalone european machines, or part of a combo, is personal preference.

Some people go the route of buying a saw/shaper and a seperate jointer/planer, rather than a full combo. Like Paul, I've got a standalone sliding table saw and a jointer/planer on the way. I didn't have the funds for a saw/shaper at the time I ordered my machine, but am happy with my router for most shaping type operations. My personal preference is to seperate the saw (or saw/shaper) from the jointer/planer, but if I were really space limited, would be happy with a full 5-function combo.

The european jointer/planers are really top notch. They often come with Tersa quick-change cutterheads (such as on Mini-Max and Felder), or other high quality cutterheads such as the Felder (Felder and Hammer). I also prefer the fences on the Mini Maxes and Felders over the fence on my Grizzly jointer.

The european shapers are also quite nice, often with tilting heads, excellent guard systems, and some fantastic (but pricey) tooling. And the sliding table is a benefit for tennoning and other shaping tasks.

Todd

[Jim Becker]

JIm; I can go either way. Slider combo or just slider saw (minimax) Is there, IYO, one better than the other? Is the quality of the non saw items satisfactory?

Because of the way I work, I found that the saw combined with a J/P combo best suits me, but honestly, I tend to bounce back and forth between the table saw and jointer a lot and having them separate is convenient for me. I could have worked just fine with a full combo if my shop could have accommodated it. It's largely a matter of preference.

As to your quality question, I agree with Todd...all good stuff. Not inexpensive, but built like tanks. The only thing "comparable" in quality and capacities, IMHO, is some of the old iron...as long as you are talking about industrial machines. And I'm not saying that other options are 'poor' quality by that statement...quite the contrary...there are very good machines available from "the names we all know".

I really hope over the next few years that those same "names we know" start to produce machines like Mini Max, Felder, etc., so there are more choices on the marketplace at a variety of budget levels. Shiraz of Grizzly has already recognized the opportunity and I hope he is joined in that regard.

[Joe Mioux]

Jim Becker, SMC Woodworker Amabassador!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

JIm; I can go either way. Slider combo or just slider saw (minimax) Is there, IYO, one better than the other? Is the quality of the non saw items satisfactory?


I'd go separates. The sole reason to get a combo is where space is you enemy and you simply can't fit the machines.

A slider of any decent size should never be moved. I believe that moving your slider will tweak the table's adjustment out of true.

However the J/Ps and the mortser on the back can move about all day.

If you are in the Minimax price range, don't ignore Felder. You can get a full dado arbor and Felder sells a single phase option. If money is no object then get a Martin.

[Jim Becker]

Cliff is correct, research several options so that you invest in a machine that best suits your needs. If you can make arrangements to spend a few minutes with an owner of the machine(s) you are considering, do so...or attend a trade show where the manufacturer(s) are displaying their wares. Some folks will even buy a (hopefully cheap) plane ticket to go to a showroom if they are considering putting out serious money.

Outside of my satisfaction with previous purchases from MiniMax and the people who make up the company, the S315WS was extra attractive to me because I didn't have to order all kinds of options to get all the features I wanted. And it worked with my existing tooling given it has a full dado-read 5/8" arbor standard. (I do need to make a ZCI should I decide to use that dado capability) The 4.8hp single phase setup is also perfect for my shop and available as "standard". In fact, the only options/accessories I bought were an extra riving knife so I could have one short enough for my 10" blades (ground 3/16" off of it to allow for through cuts) and an extra clamp for the slider for convenience. It came literally with "everything" in the crate.

[Brian Gumpper]

I'd go separates. The sole reason to get a combo is where space is you enemy and you simply can't fit the machines.

Moved to FL and bought all new tools; cabinet saw, jointer, planer, bandsaw ... Sold them 6 months later and bought a MM combo machine. Just didn't have the space and honestly still don't but it's as good as it's gonna get.

If I had a 20x40 shop I would go back to seperates and most likely get a sliding table saw. I love the slider on my combo and as far as safety, you can't beat it. I used to screw up a lot of cuts because I was busy watching the blade and my hands/body and not so much what the wood was doing.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Just some more observations here. I officially gave up my Unisaw back in 2004 and have been a slider user ever since (sounds kind of like an addiction doesn't it?). When I now use it my focus has switched from being extremely careful with my fingers, where am I standing, what is going to happen to that knot when I hit it, etc..... to confidence that the cut is perfect every time and that I am simply processing a part instead on a machine that I thoroughly enjoy using. Now do not get me wrong I am VERY VIGILANT during every cut I make no matter what machine I am using but given that I now have a riving knife that stays on and works no matter what cut I am doing, I have an overhead guard on at all times (that also provides DC) that does not get in the way & can easily move out of the way if needed and that I am no ware near the blade anymore has really helped. Funny thing is when I do use my slider for cutting parts and especially while using my ripping jig I can acquaint my saw to a very big meat slicer. All I do is clamp and slide and it does all the rest...... If your shop can only fit a saw/shaper combo by no means should you not look away from it. The ability of a slider added to a shaper is tremendous and then a shapers ability in general are well worth it. One other thing to consider is adding electronic controls to the shaper function in order to aid is set up. Many companies offer these features....