Looking for Someone to Make Sugar Maple Drum Shells

[David Loewen]

Hi there, Dave Loewen here. Listen, I have been doing some digging, and I stumbled acrross your site, and I am wondering if you might be able to help me out.

THE PROBLEM
I'm writing to you from Vancouver, BC CANADA, which is exactly the reason that I am posting here - Sugar Maple doesn't grow out here, and I need some of it. It's pretty standard issue for what I want to do because it is tough and looks as amazing as it sounds. What I really want is to find someone that was willing to turn it for me - making solid one ply true solid drum shells (yes the percussion instrument - drum set)

I am looking to make drum shells out of solid pieces of Sugar Maple (not much different from the process of bowl-making I assume). Anyway, being that Sugar Maple isn't native to these here parts, I am trying to find someone who might be able to supply me with some wood to turn, or turn it for me and send me a completely finished (or roughly finished "shell" and I would bring it to completion on this end).

GENERAL INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT I AM LOOKING FOR
The depth of shells (finished product) would be anywhere from 10" dia x 8" depth all the way up to 22" dia x 20 depth (with various sizes inbetewen). I understand that the later size would be quite difficult to get because of it's size, but I don't imagine that the smaller sizes would too much of a task.

Just to give you an example so that you might be able to visualize my needs; my drum set has a 10"x10" tom drum, a 16"x14" floor tom drum, a 20"x20" bass (also called a kick) drum, and a 13"x7 snare drum (all sizes I just gave you are dia x depth). I think the bass drum has a thickness of 3/8" while all the other drums are 1/4 of an inch (although the snare may be up to 1/2" or even 5/8" thick).

THE SOLUTION
If you are interested in pursuing this further, get in touch with me and I'll pass my number along so we can talk. I am sure you have questions, as do I. I am willing to pay, so throw some figures my way and lets talk.

Can somebody please help me out here by using your craftsmanship and talent to make me some shells (might be a reasonably profitable side business - the turning of the blanks and shipping of the shells to me that is...), or direct me to someone who could (either sell me blanks large enough or turn the appropriate sized blanks into roughly the correct sized shells that I would need)?

Thanks for considering. Please ask any questions you have, and don't hesitate to drop me a line.


Best to you,

Dave Loewen

[Andy Hoyt]

David - I'm not offering to help - yet.

But I do have a few observations for which your responses might encourage others to jump in. Here goes:

Please confirm that you're after open-ended cylinders.

Please confirm that you're after cylinders that have been turned from one solid piece of stock.

Please confirm that you will not consider a cylinder turned from glued-up stock ala stave construction.

Since sound and tone is likely to be an issue for you, please confirm that the finished product should be 100% free of defects (nature's or ours).

Please indicate if there is a Must-Be-In-Vancouver date.

Thanks.

[David Loewen]

Hi Andy, thanks for the encouragement to clarify - I had assumed that I'd have at least a few offers by now. Please read on everyone else.

Andy is correct in all his observations. I am looking for open-ended cylinders that have been turned from one solid piece of stock and I will not consider a cylinder turned from glued-up stock (aka stave construction).

Since sound and tone is the primary issue for me (aesthetics being second), the finished product should be 100% free of defects (nature's or yours).

Now I think I'm starting to sound a little over-particular, but there is some flexibility here. As of right now, I do not have any dates to impose upon you, however the success of my drum kits (and our working relationship) will depend I suppose on the quality of the shells that you are producing. Regarding shipping, I could set up an account with Fedex and they could pick the shells up at your door to relieve some stress, and I am open to how and when you get paid.

If you are interested, lets talk. Please don't be shy, there is some very decent money in this for the right craftsman.


Thank you for considering,

Dave

[Jim Becker]

David, what you're asking for presents some significant challenges to most turners including the required equipment to handle the sizes of things you want. One other thing...the nature of wood and moisture is going to require turning twice (at least)...once from the green log to oversize and then to final specifications after thorough drying. Final spec may require remounting several times, depending on the stability of the material. "That big" (diameter and depth) combined with "that thin" pretty well means there is going to be some extra shells necessary to make up for those that crack and distort significantly.

While there are some folks here that turn professionally, the majority are hobbyists with smaller lathes. I'm only mentioning all this to keep things in perspective...it's one of the reasons that drum shells from solid stock are pretty rare!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David......as Jim stated........Turning each one of these from a single piece of wood may be a real challenge. First finding the right single piece of wood and 2nd getting it through the turning process without warpage, splits, etc.

I'm not so sure that a glue up with a possible veneer added might be the more practical way to go.

Good luck!

[David Loewen]

Hey guys, thanks for posting.

Jim, to you first. You pretty much nailed it on the head, the log would need to be turned first leaving a couple inches of mean on the shell so that it could dry and then be turned a second time to achieve the final shape. I understand that most turners are hobbyists, but I am hoping that someone with the mind and the abilities and equipment, might step in and help me out.

Ken, you mention the difficulty of turning open ended cylinders, and suggest that because of it's difficulty that I should consider the practically of veneered (multiple ply). There are several reasons that I want to move away from ply shells.

1) They are very common, and as such everyone who can drill a hole and screw on hardware calls themselves a "Custom" drum company. This is grossly misleading. I designed my own hardware and want to make my own shells (so to speak). That is what "Custom" really means.

And...

2) Ply shells can only sound so good (if you know what I mean), and that really isn't that good. Seriously. there is so much glue used in a ply shell that the shells can't resonate freely. Glue doesn't sound so good/wood does. Let me illustrate. Let's take for example, a 14" diameter snare drum. 3.14 (pi) x 14" = 43.69' x 6" = 263.76 sq. inches x 9 glued plies = 2,373.84 sq." of glue used on a common ply snare. Glue is in fact it is a tone inhibitor. Wood is good, glue is dead.

There is only 2 companies in Canada doing solid shells (and hundreds doing ply shells). One sells exclusively to a larger drum company, and the other is in Quebec CANADA... need I say more??? And the only other company that I know of is in Australia. None of them sell one offs to custom drum makers like myself.

So in summary, ply shells are way to common (all made by the same guy at Keller Shells out of Cali I believe), they don't sound very good (no matter who you buy the shell from).

True solid shells (we'll call them) are a bit rare, and I can only imagine that it's because not everyone has the guts or the cash to do it. I have the guts but not the cash (at least not enough to buy the set-up it would take to do what I want). And that's why I am trying to get hooked up with one of you. Listen, guys turn bowls all the time, all this is is a more cylindrical bowl with an extra hole in it. Wouldn't you simply 1) round the outside of the log, 2) hollow out the inside (within 2" so it could dry), 3) Let it dry/kiln dry it, 4) lathe the final shape and thickness of the shell, and 5) cut off the butt and sand the other edge (to match the first edge)? I don't turn, but this is how I can conceptualize doing it.

Is there anyone out there that would take a crack at it? Let's try one shell. I know this can be done. Let's try a 13" dia x 6.5 depth and 1/2" thick. Anyone??? I am very serious about this, I'm just looking for someone willing to take a stab at it with me.

[William Bachtel]

I thought they were scraf jointed and glued. Not turned, but I do like the turning idea, but in todays market place its sounds expensive.

[David Loewen]

Like how expensive? I need someone to give me an idea of what this would be worth to them.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David.....what I was thinking was gluing up staves like wooden barrel staves of old and then turning them round. Then apply a veneero over the outside.


The trouble as I see it is finding the "perfect" piece of wood. Then you rough turn it green......let it dry and then finish turn it. Wood as it dries can warp and/or crack.....This is what will make the process as you describe it extremely difficult and therefore extremely expensive.

If you could stave it......you could use kiln dried wood.....rip them to the proper width and angles.....glue them up......Turn to thickness. It eliminates the possible warpage and cracking of green wood drying and it eliminates the 2 turning process and the time required to allow the wood to dry properly.....

Good luck with you endeavors!

[Richard Madison]

David,
You mention "ply" shells, which are multiple very thin layers, laminated together around a form. And wherein the glue joints may be a noticeable percentage of the shell wall thickness.

Why not "stave" construction, in which the glue joints would be a small fraction of the total construction? Just wondering.

[David Loewen]

Hey guys, thanks for the suggestion to do it with staves, but I'll give you a couple of reasons.

Really it all boils down to the glue, first of all a solid shell has no glue, a stave shell still uses a bit, though not nearly as much as a ply construction. Staves have multiple vertical seams (the number depends on the size of the drum (i.e. a 14" snare has 20 staves hence 20 seams) to me this is quite unsightly. And although people think quite highly of stave drum shells, they maintain an unnatural look. The use of multiple pieces of wood glued together still poses the potential problem of cracking (although perhaps not warping).

So in short, although staves are neat, and some custom drum makers are making a living at it, it is not my intention. I have done incredible amounts of digging and definatley do want to do a true solid shell out of a single log - no seams, no glue.

Thanks though, I appreciate the feedback and suggestions.

[Richard Madison]

David,
Thanks for your response on stave construction. Assume that it is already done this way by others. Properly done, the glue joints will not crack, as they are typically stronger than the wood. What you propose is a challenge to the wood and the wood turner, and I wish you good luck in your endeavor.

[Chris Barton]

David,

I've watched this thread with interest. While it may seem relatively simple to make a wooden sleeve as others have mentioned, there are some challenges. First, as has been previously stated one would have to get intact maple logs to turn for the project and they would need to be green turned and then held for months to dry and then return. I doubt they would ever remain completely round but, that may not be an issue. My guess is that for one 13" drum sleeve it would probably be worth several hundred bucks. Now, if you could find a friend who turns in your area and supply him/her with the logs, you might make a deal.

[Reed Gray]

With the sizes that you want, I think they could be done, and you could take cores for the smaller ones from a large piece. The mechanics of turning aren't too bad, but I would think the prices would be huge, in the neighborhood of at least $200 for the smaller pieces. Finding the wood would be the hardest part. There are good turners in Vancouver (check out local wood stores, or the AAW for club and member listings) and ask them for help and/or suggestions. Some of the local woods might work well. I wouldn't think sugar maple would have very good resonation qualities. Mechanically, I would worry that the structure would be weak, without some sort of compression banding on top (which the drum head would probably do, and a band or 2 around the midddle and bottom. I don't know for sure, as I don't know drums.
robo hippy

[Dale Stagg]

Sorry, wish I have a lathe big enough to give it a try but the wait for the whole process which includes the drying, would be long. Most people do not have a kiln dryer handy and unless done correctly, would still crack and warp. I would think to try to turn at finished size, soak in PEG and then dry and finish to give quickest result. I do this quite often and no warping or cracking at finished size from wet wood. Just have to finsh at correct size and shape then immediately start soaking as the product tends to start drying on the lathe quickly.

[Marty Barron]

David here is a website for Pete Stanbridge who turns his own shells in the making of his drums. His drums look fantastic, sound great and being used by some top drummers worldwide.

Hope this helps.

Marty

www.stanbridgedrums.com/newsite/drums/index.html (http://www.stanbridgedrums.com/newsite/drums/index.html)

[Steven Wilson]

But those drum shells are all glue ups. The original poster is looking for a single piece of wood turned into a shell, a very, very different animal

[TYLER WOOD]

Why not stave consrtuction with a thin veneer glued on. You still get the large porportion of wood to glue, the astetics of the solid turned, and the ease, and cheaper constuction costs. I have done this with a humidor (see previous posts for pics) and a friend turned a small drum for my son a couple weeks ago. The wood was not very good (poplar with a elm burl veneer he had laying around), but for a 4 year old to pound on it didn't have to be, but with the veneer on it it looked solid after I stretched the head on it. I think the resonance is fine just not the tone, too pingy instead of tommy. I understand you wanting to be high quality, but without having a huge inventory of logs to choose from, many of us just have logs gathered from downed trees. It gets very expensive throwing out most of the wood, just because of defects in the wood. GOOD LUCK!!!!

[Steven Wilson]

David, you pose an interesting challange. Let's take your worst case scenerio - the bass drum (floor tom's aren't far behind). For a finished 22" bass drum, I would want a tree with a diameter of 26" to accomodate the bark, outer layer, and out of round resulting from drying. Length would need to be at least 24", maybe longer. A 26x24 wet blank would weigh somewhere around 380 lbs (.56g/cc dry desity plus allow 50% for wet) which is a bit bigger than I and my wife would care to lift. So, to handle that blank I would need a high reaching engine hoist or a small overhead crane fitted in the shop. For moving that piece of wood around I would probably need to install a crane in the pickup or have a Bob Cat or forklift available at the house. I have a lathe with a fairly large capacity (Oneway 2436) but would need to have a custom outboard turning attachment made in order to handle the length of the blank, plus tailstock, face plate, etc.

Initial rough turning of the piece would be interesting and fairly risky. I'm not sure If I would leave a bottom (I might turn a plywood disk to fit the bottom and screw it in and band it) due to cracking problems associated with the thickness of stock I would want to leave in the base. A wet piece like this would probably move a lot so I would rough turn it thick, seal it, pack it in shavings and then let it sit for 3 months, at which point I would chuck it up and see where it's at. It would probably take a few sessions of turning and drying until final turning can happen. I would expect a 50% or higher rejection rate so for every finished shell I would want to rough turn 3 or 4 and would not expect a finished shell for at least a year (drying).

I'm thinking that to safely turn the outside and inside I would need to fabricate some specialist bowl steadies and jumbo jaws (possibly an expanding internal chuck that meets up with the tail stock). In any case I would need to contact my lathe manufacturer and other turners of large pieces to work on a safe way to handle pieces like this. It IS NOT a bowl. To gain precision I might need to fabricate custom ways to mount a router and slide that to make the exact external and internal diameters.

Gearing up to safely handle your project would be quite an expense and very few hobbiests probably have the equipment to safely tackle the work, even a snare drum would tax the equipment of most turners (pro or not), and we're not even talking about the cost of obtaining and transporting an appropriate tree. You may want to talk to Mary Lacer at the AAW to find resources that may be able to tackle your project.

[Ron Sardo]

I know of a person local to me who "wants" to make drums such as the ones you want. We spoke at length about his expectations and I understand exactly what you need .

This can be done and it would be very expensive. I told him that he would need to supply me with the wood and I would bill him for my time to create a process that would accomplish what he needs.

We expect the first shell to cost close to $5000.

Are you still game?

[Ted Calver]

David,
Would you consider allowing 1 glue line? If so, the shells could be roughed out on a large (20" resaw) bandsaw in the manner of bandsaw boxes. This might even allow you to get several shells from the same large blank. The resulting shell would be intact except for one nearly invisible glue line. Just a thought.
Ted

[David Loewen]

You guys, I appreciate all the responses, this is great. Now, to the last response.

Ron, could you explain to me what you think 5k would provide for you in order to create the first shell? I can imagine that it would take a hoist to get the log up onto the lathe, and I can imagine that to do this accuratley every time for production purposes would require some jigs and other stuff. I was asking around here in hopes of finding someone willing and capable of doing this (meaning that more or less they had the equipment that it would take).

Now you say " We expect the first shell to cost close to $5000". But after that first initial set-up cost, what could you see each shell costing?

[David Loewen]

Hey ted, could you explain to me what you mean. Help me visualize what you're talking about.

[Brian Weick]

David,
That's not a problem , You would have to ship the wood to my shop and I would need to know some more information,ie when you need them ~ I can do it for you ~ just have to be careful on the wall thickness- 1/2" is what I would recommend. as far as the lathe it would be crafted on ~ http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18192
Brian

[David Loewen]

OK, Let me just clarify something for everyone if I may. I know that the drying is the make it or break it of this operation. There have been various suggestions on how to dry the logs, but I think I just need to clarify something - I am pretty sure that after a rough shell is cut (leaving maybe 2-3" of shell thickness to account for shrinkage and warpage during the drying process), the shell would then have to be kiln dried at some pretty decent temperatures. Check out www.lukapercussion.com/en/homepage.html and click on the "Fabrication" link down at the bottom after the intro plays. This is 1 of 2 drum companies in North America doing what I am wanting to do, and although they won't sell their shells, that page offers some insight into how they are doing it.

I think the the sealing and kiln drying are crucial to keeping the shell from cracking/warping too badly. So keep that in mind. You would probably have to have some connection with someone that has a kiln. So there are three prereque's I can see here, 1) a hoist (or really strong friends as a previous poster correctly identified up to 400lb logs), 2), A hugh and awesome lathe, and 3) Access to (or ownership of) a kiln.

I think where I am at right now, is that I'd like to do a few shells (like 3 or 4) as a means of judging quality, durability, precision... and then if all was well, I would be willing to set a price for the shells that took into account the possibility of having to invest some $$ into some custom jigs and whatever. If you can make 3 or 4 shells that I was pleased with, I would have no problem establishing a long term relationship. Like I said in my first post - I think there could be some really decent money in this down the road for a talented and knowledgeable person.

I know that it can be done, so no more naysaying. But I understand that most of you don't have the erquipment to take on something like this. I understand, and that's ok, I posted to catch the eye of the few who were capable and able.

Thanks to everyone who has taken an interest in this thread. I appreciate all of you insight and feedback.

[Ron Sardo]

You guys, I appreciate all the responses, this is great. Now, to the last response.

Ron, could you explain to me what you think 5k would provide for you in order to create the first shell? I can imagine that it would take a hoist to get the log up onto the lathe, and I can imagine that to do this accuratley every time for production purposes would require some jigs and other stuff. I was asking around here in hopes of finding someone willing and capable of doing this (meaning that more or less they had the equipment that it would take).

Now you say " We expect the first shell to cost close to $5000". But after that first initial set-up cost, what could you see each shell costing?

This type of work is not production work. Every shell would be a custom made shell. Consider the $5k as time and materials to create the product you need at the standards you set.

The cost for the blanks after the first can only be determined after the first successful blank is made.

[David Loewen]

I know that Penn's Woods in Port Alberny, PA sells kiln dried blanks of Sugar Maple, and so with a 22" or 20" piece, I could get all the sizes of shells I needed out of that one piece of wood. I assume that it is done drying and hence shrinking at that point. And if my assumption is correct, this just got a whole lot easier.

[Steven Wilson]

Ted, you wouldn't need to made a cut in the shell. Just use a bandsaw blade welder (i.e. drill hole, thread blade through hole, weld blade, cut out the hollow). Brian, I don't think that Oliver has enough swing capacity to do the bass drum or floor toms inbound.

[Ron Sardo]

I know that Penn's Woods in Port Alberny, PA sells kiln dried blanks of Sugar Maple, and so with a 22" or 20" piece, I could get all the sizes of shells I needed out of that one piece of wood. I assume that it is done drying and hence shrinking at that point. And if my assumption is correct, this just got a whole lot easier.

You can't kiln dry lumber that is thicker than 2", besides conventional kiln drying will change the wood tone.

[Steven Wilson]

I know that Penn's Woods in Port Alberny, PA sells kiln dried blanks of Sugar Maple, and so with a 22" or 20" piece, I could get all the sizes of shells I needed out of that one piece of wood. I assume that it is done drying and hence shrinking at that point. And if my assumption is correct, this just got a whole lot easier.


Do you have a link for them? Do you mean Penn's Woods in Port Allegany, PA? If so, where did you see that they had 24" diameter, 24" long kiln dried blanks? I don't see anything even remotely that size listed. The blanks I see on their site are seasoned (read probably sealed and then left to sit for a year or so) and of a more normal size for turners. They could probably obtain the size stock your looking for but it would be green (wet). Kiln drying would only make sense once you have a rough turned, stable shell around 1" in thickness. If you rough turned to 1" thickness and then put it in a kiln you would probably have a lot of warpage and wastage of your shell. You really need to rough turn wet, let dry for awhile, turn again, let dry for awhile and then when it's stable and roughly 1" thick then kiln dry if needed (probably won't). You may believe that you'll get all of your shells out of one blank. I kind of doubt that you'll get an 18" floor tom out of the inside of a 22" bass drum. Most of the other shells will be possible. To process this wood you need to allow quite a bit of wastage and understand that to core out the inside you will have slop with getting bandsaws to track real close, and auger bits to track straight enough for the larger shells. Things get a whole lot easier (and a lot less wastage) with the smaller drums.

[Brian Weick]

Steve,
in case you are not familiar with my lathe. An Oliver 20C is designed to handle very large turnings and was designed by the Oliver woodworking machine company since 1902 for this specific reason. you are capable of turning with very high precision because it is designed as a pattern lathe with a 2 feed carriage system with a stamped measuring indicator on the carriage and the bed. An Oliver 20C has 24 inches over the bed-ways 22" over the carriage. The bed lengths varied depending on the customers selection and you could even order the lathe without the cast iron bed, for those that preferred a timber designed bed-way, but you lost the option of the carriage by doing so. In David's case, the carriage will not be underneath the material as it will be positioned on the end of the log face and will be fed into the face for a perfect circumference- that being mounted on a 20" face plate. This is the procedure that I would use in this case which is pretty straight forward. I can turn on the outboard side as well if need be, my only limitation is the floor the Oliver rests on ~ currently that is 64" in diameter, due to the floor. If I had a pit for the outside turning it is possible to do 96" but that is as far as I am willing to go. There is a separate bed-way that is used for the outside with a 2 step carriage , I have not yet found the need to even use it as the lathe can handle most of the turnings. In David's case there is a lot of drying time involved with this project more than anything else and you can't rush this job. I am not a big fan of creating a turning out of a solid piece of wood this large in diameter because of cracking in the vertical grain that could arise ~ . If he plans on doing this out of solid wood then the diameter of the material should be no less than 28" to start, then turned down. It is very possible to get all of his drum shells from just one log, depending on the diameters. I also would not want to turn the drum wall thickness less than a 1/2" in diameter on the 22" bass floor shell, the others could probably go a little less but no more than 3/8" to play it safe. this is a doable project in my mind and don't see any problem other than the wood curing and the wall thickness. This is just my opinion Steve, others may feel different about it ~ but keep in mind you can only do what the equipment you have will allow you to do ~ and it is not in the best interest of of your machinery or your safety to push the envelope beyond it's limitations. I know mine and respect my equipment and it's limitations.
Happy Turning:)
Regards,
Brian
Brian

[Steven Wilson]

Brian, I was looking at the previous link in this thread and it looked like the 20C had roughly a 24" swing (12" from spindle to the ways). If you have 44" or 48" swing inbound then you would definately have the capacity to turn the shells safely. My thought was to rough turn the outside, then drill a hole on the inside to feed a bandsaw blade and then reweld it. I know Northfield makes a 20" bandsaw with lots of capacity under the guides (basically any size you want). Then keep doing it until you have rough shells. After drying I would true up the outsides on the lathe using a custom made expanding chuck on the inside that would use the headstock and tailstock for support. After that I would probably wouldn't use a lathe for the inside but more of a rock tumbler affair to rotate the shell while a router brings the insides to the proper diameter. Not a normal bowl project to be sure

[Brian Weick]

Steve,
, no my turning inboard (total diameter is 24" obw and 22" over the carriage) the outboard is totally different. That band saw idea- yeas i think it would work but I know one thing- I would not attempt that. There is to much that can go wrong with that. Even if you got the cut finished- how true can you really get the shell to be- I just have a feeling that it wouldn't come out close to perfect in circumference- good idea~! just not with such a massive wood project.

[Brian Weick]

Carriage fed ~ turn the outside first between the centers, but the live end mounted on the face plate. then back off the tail stock out of the way, move in the carriage to the desired thickness with a long gouge mounted on the tool post and start feeding into the log 22" allow 1/2" for the wall thickness then move down to 18" feed in down 1/2" for the wall thickness and so on but not to exceed into the face plate staying away 3" from the faceplate , then when that is all finished mount the router on the carriage with a 1/4" fluted bit , turn the lathe on 1.5 hertz feed the router (15,RPM) cut the outside 20" shell first , then remove the router from the carriage and use a separating gouge , pick up the speed to 10 hertz and finish cutting the rest- 1 at a time , stopping to remove each shell as you progress. That is how I would create these drum shells.

[Steven Wilson]

Well, lets say you have a rough turned outer and then left 2-3" of thickness and the inside was rough. After drying I would make an expansion chuck where each leg can be adjusted individually (sort of like a cylinder hone looking thing). So, it wouldn't make any difference how out of whack the inside of shell was, the outside could be set up to run as true as it can be and the whole project would be supported from the head and tailstock. Once the shell is finished warping and the outside is true then you should be able to remove the inside waste fairly easily by a number of methods some of which wouldn't require a lathe (think a large spindle steady looking afair with rollers instead of wheels)

[Brian Weick]

I suppose, But like I said Steve , I only use my equipment for what it was intended for. I have heard of just a few horror stories as far as injuries are concerned. It is actually a little humorous when you think about it- it is a pretty straight forward project, it really is- and then reality sets in- how in the hell am I going to do this -LOL . Well see what David ends up doing. I can't do anything till fall anyways ~ I have a very intricate and detailed luxury master bathroom I am doing now and then I have more work after that in the neighborhood from there neighbors. Not to mention, It is going to take 4-5 months for that wood to dry, be process (turned slightly) dried again and so on. I would do it for him, but - I really don't know why he is going to all this trouble just for a solid drum shell- that's out of my league- I played the pipe organ /organ/ guitar for fun and that's it. Maybe it has something to do with the resonating of the wood--?? got me on that one! Violins~ string instruments- that I can see- According to David,from reading, the sound resonates much better without glue. But they use glue to assemble the pieces of a violin together, the glue matters, but all in all ~ it's still glue. It is the varnish that can either make a violin sing or leave it muffled when played. My thinking is if all the drum manufacturers out there thought that it made that much difference ~ why aren't they all doing that. Think about it? can you imagine the time and money they would save- all they have to do id have a lathe designed "specifically for this process" not to different from mine probably other than the swing diameter. they could make an entire drum set entirely from one cut wood log (species critical of coarse) . I am not in the business of musical instruments , but this has given me a thought about this ~ there is a lot of potential with this- I have just been educated on this as of today by what David has written about his post so I am not informed enough to say weather or not the benefits out-way the usual processes of drum shell making. If so ~ he may be write?
Regards,
Brian

[Pete Kekel]

How about contacting a woodturning professional to get their take on it? I've spent some time with Nick Cook before and he gets odd-ball requests all the time and is constantly coming up with ways to make things work versus figuring out why it can't be done. His web site is nickwoodturner.com, but it would probably be best to try his phone numbers listed on the site.

Good luck with your project.

[Kenneth Hertzog]

would curly maple be about the same have some butt logs that have a hollow hole in the middle that have a DIA of about 24 inches. I'm not interested in doing the job but I may have some wood.
ken

[David Epperson]

I think the the sealing and kiln drying are crucial to keeping the shell from cracking/warping too badly.
Quite a few turners here have had good luck using DNA to speed the drying time without kiln use. A 55 gal drum with some filler bricks might work. How long would you have to soak a piece with 24" grain length to pull that much moisture out?

[Doug Collins]

Don't know anything about drums, but are they always sold as a complete matching set?

Any market for selling the worlds best tom-toms or some of the smaller sizes?

Seems like the conversation has revolved around problems with turning the larger shells, but if you could get the smaller sizes, maybe somebody would be able to take that on with much less cost/risk?

[Grant Wilkinson]

David

While I certainly have neither the skill or the equipment to do what you are asking, I am a friend of a professional wood turner here in Ottawa that may be able to do it.
I noticed on the Luka site that they do not do only maple drums. They also do oak, birch and ash. Are you limiting your drums to only maple?
If Mike can do this and is interested, I assume that you can and will provide him with your business plan so that he knows that you are serious and capable of making a go of this. You are asking the turner to make a large investment in time and money, and I'm sure that you are not expecting that to be done of faith.
To the others who have replied, the Luka site says that their tom and floor toms have 1/4" walls, the bass has 3/8". The snares range from 1/4" "with integrated reinforcing hoops" to 2". Quite the range.
I also saw that the pics that you supplied in your original post seem to have been taken from the Luka site. You may want to be careful there.

[Brian Weick]

I read this article about Drum Art Snare Drums And Drumsticks http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/modern_drummer/htm/0602_newnote.htm
They make theirs using stave's glued together and they claim that the resonating is in the wood and I have to say that I would concur with that.A iuka percussion 5 piece solid wood drum set start at $4,750 -I am not to sure you are aware of the costs involved with having these type of drums produced
Brian

[David Loewen]

Hey Everyone, just got in... and wow, quite the stir this post has created. Let me try and tackle some of this. perhaps the best place to begin is to respond to the previous post.

Grant, I did not know this was as difficult of a process as everyone is making it out to be. I know that there are 3 other drum companies in the world doing this - and that's the point, they are doing it! I don't have a stash of cash to invest in a C20 or some other crazy lathe, and that's why I posted here. I was hoping that I might find some one that had the necessary tools to bang out several shells. I have never said that I wanted to dominate the world of musical instruments, and so no, I don't have a business plan. I wanted to make one kit, and then two, and then three... I know there is a market for these kinds of drums, for sure there is. And since the process is difficult, those players who don't have an endorsement deal, and want quality drums are trying one ply steambent shells, segmented shells, and stave shells. They all have something good about them, but the truth is, none of them can compare toanally to a drum shell crafted out of a solid shell that has no stress on the wood from bending, and no glue - which most certainly is a tone inhibitor.

Violins use glue because they have to - you want to make a million dollars in a hurry - start crafting violins out of a solid piece of wood. They don't exist because of the narrow opening in them. You can't do it any other way than to glue it together.

I know that what I am asking is difficult and will cost more than a typical shell, those are just a given. But I am a hopeless entrepreneur who loves building drums and can't help but see an opportunity here.

Now regarding the pictures that I posted. Of course they are from the Luka site. If there are only three companies in the whole world doing solid shell drums, and Luka is the only one doing solid shell DRUM SETS, doesn't it make sense that I would borrow a couple of pics from their site to show you the concept? A picture is worth a thousand words, and words can sometimes hardly hold their own. Who hasn't done it?

Also, I don't want to stay with Maple, not at all. After I can establish a relationship with someone, I will get a website up and advertise custom drums - that is with any wood I can get my hands on. I want to also offer Maple wood hoops (instead of standard aluminum or cast hoops) in Hickory, Cocobollo, or whatever. The three most common flavors of drums though are Maple (nice tones/very warm sound), Birch (naturally eq'd sound - nice highs), and Mahagony (deep low tones). I'd like to be able to give the customer any species of wood they want on any drum. The thing is though, that of the three most desireable woods, Maple is the preffered, and most Drummers want it. So, that's where I will start.

I have heard from a couple of you that you think this can be done, and you are considering it. Thank you, I appreciate it. If anyone else hasn't spoken up yet but needs to, please get in touch with me. Quite honestly though, I don't have 5k to give you for a set-up cost. I am willing to work with you only if you have what it would take to do this already. I need you to be incredibly capable with your tools, and be alright if I don't make you rich overnight.

[Dick Strauss]

David,
Another one of the big "gotchas" other than those already mentioned is the depth of cut. Bowls usually don't go deeper than 6" or so. We get 6" of depth by placing our tool rest in the center hollowed area as we go deeper. If you want to cut multiple blanks from one log, you can't do it this way. You can get mulitple cores using a straight coring tool like the Oneway Easy-Core system (or similar from KM etc). None of these systems will allow for coring something that deep. A typical deep hollowing rig might be an option except that they use solid 3/4" steel rod as the cutting tool holder that isn't good for more than 12". Your floor toms and bass drums would require hollowing or cutting a piece twice this depth if I understand you correctly.

So you need a $5-10k lathe, ~$2k in hauling and handling upgrades, and a superduty custom deep hollowing rig ($1k if designed and welded yourself). Can you say "kaching kaching" before a turner even gets going? This doesn't include the other custom tools you'd need to make such an item. If you are serious about this endeavor, you should be willing to pay for all of the upgrades and make arrangements for logs to be delivered up front before any work begins.

I wish you well,
Dick

[Rex Guinn]

You might want to call Dave Lancaster up in Maine I would bet he could turn what you wanted. I saw him turn at the LAW meeting in Louisville, KY in March.
Good Luck

[Dale Stagg]

Can't blame him however. If he paid for all upgrades himself, he has no security that he would ever get the first drum. If he did all this, he could just purchase all equipment and hire a person to do the turning himself. He wants minimum risk for himself and person agreeing to do the work himself.


David,
Another one of the big "gotchas" other than those already mentioned is the depth of cut. Bowls usually don't go deeper than 6" or so. We get 6" of depth by placing our tool rest in the center hollowed area as we go deeper. If you want to cut multiple blanks from one log, you can't do it this way. You can get mulitple cores using a straight coring tool like the Oneway Easy-Core system (or similar from KM etc). None of these systems will allow for coring something that deep. A typical deep hollowing rig might be an option except that they use solid 3/4" steel rod as the cutting tool holder that isn't good for more than 12". Your floor toms and bass drums would require hollowing or cutting a piece twice this depth if I understand you correctly.

So you need a $5-10k lathe, ~$2k in hauling and handling upgrades, and a superduty custom deep hollowing rig ($1k if designed and welded yourself). Can you say "kaching kaching" before a turner even gets going? This doesn't include the other custom tools you'd need to make such an item. If you are serious about this endeavor, you should be willing to pay for all of the upgrades and make arrangements for logs to be delivered up front before any work begins.

I wish you well,
Dick

[Ron Sardo]

I don't have 5k to give you for a set-up cost. I am willing to work with you only if you have what it would take to do this already. I need you to be incredibly capable with your tools, and be alright if I don't make you rich overnight.

So, if I understand you correctly, you want someone else to fund your idea. You do not want any part of the monetary risk that you envision will make you money. You just want some dope to do all the work and you are only willing to pay for the shell that meets your extremely high quality standards? Did I miss anything?

There is a reason why there are so few companies that do this.

[David Loewen]

Ron, your last post is a little nasty, It's unfortunate that the thread has to decay to near name calling. I am pretty sure that I mentioned at least a couple of times that I wasn't looking for someone unsure of themselves. "If you are interested and capable...", or something like it, was what I said.

I know that it poses challenges, but someone who is already an incredibly capable turner isn't afraid of the challenge that this poses. And that's why I am not looking for an amateur or hobbyist turner, but rather someone who can wrap their head around the idea, and say, "Yeah, totally I can do that..." even if they see some obstacles.

I never said anywhere in this post that I "want someone else to fund my idea." It isn't simply a matter of not wanting "any part of the monetary risk that I envision will make me money" at all. And I certainly am not interested in the quality of work that "some dope" is capable of doing. I want someone who is talented with "their instrument" so to speak. I fully understand now that this site sees a lot of hobbyist turners who have in-turn taken an interest in this posting, and that's great, the more the merrier (plus most of you have had great input so thank you for that), and also realize not the degree of difficulty involved in doing these shells (which is why there aren't a lot of people doing it), but I don't think something that is going to scare me away. I like challenges, and am always looking to team up with really good people (attitude is usually like 90% of it). It isn't unfair to pay someone who already has most of what they need to do the shells, per shell unless I was only looking for a one-off, but I assure you, I am not! That being said, I don't know how many full drums sets worth of shells I would ask for, so I guess I do nee someone who is willing to be flexible and experiment with ideas along the way. I mean, it's not like they're worth only 40 or 50 bucks - more like 5-10 times that. So Ron, I would reword your last statement, it was a bit cutting and uninformed. They are only doing half the work with regards to the drum, it would still need to be sanded, stained/painted, drilled, hardware mounted (my own custom designed and machined hardware which is not cheap), advertised, transported, and sold before I even saw a profit. And like most business out there, the profit comes in numbers.

I am not funding someones "Hey I think i can do that but don't know where to start so I'll monkey around and buy some tools, maybe a new headstock, cherry picker...)" just for one shell that isn't very fantastic. No, I received one call/email. "I can do it, it's not a problem" the guy said. That's what I am looking for. I need confidence, ability, sheer talent, and someone already set up to do most of it. And for that, I am willing to compensate fairly, which over a number of shells will really start to mean something. I mean think of it this way, if you get all the appropiate sizes of shells from one log large enough to make the kick (or bass) drum, especially if you bought a whole tree that could give you 2, 3, or even 4 or more of these kick sizes, you are making an incredible profit on a very minimal investment (the tree, some sealer, and kiln drying time) and your labour (which would decrease with time and custom jigs). Oh, and yes, I do have high standards, if I didn't, I'd just go ask a high-school teacher around here instead of calling across the continent.

So yes Ron, you did "miss something..."! Sounds like you are lookin' out for your brothers though, and I can certainly appreciate that.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The tone of this thread is getting a little too heated. PLease keep you comments to the point of the thread without any flaming.

I don't want to have to close and move it!

Thanks,

[Ron Sardo]

Ron, your last post is a little nasty, It's unfortunate that the thread has to decay to near name calling. I am pretty sure that I mentioned at least a couple of times that I wasn't looking for someone unsure of themselves. "If you are interested and capable...", or something like it, was what I said.

I know that it poses challenges, but someone who is already an incredibly capable turner isn't afraid of the challenge that this poses. And that's why I am not looking for an amateur or hobbyist turner, but rather someone who can wrap their head around the idea, and say, "Yeah, totally I can do that..." even if they see some obstacles.

I never said anywhere in this post that I "want someone else to fund my idea." It isn't simply a matter of not wanting "any part of the monetary risk that I envision will make me money" at all. And I certainly am not interested in the quality of work that "some dope" is capable of doing. I want someone who is talented with "their instrument" so to speak. I fully understand now that this site sees a lot of hobbyist turners who have in-turn taken an interest in this posting, and that's great, the more the merrier (plus most of you have had great input so thank you for that), and also realize not the degree of difficulty involved in doing these shells (which is why there aren't a lot of people doing it), but I don't think something that is going to scare me away. I like challenges, and am always looking to team up with really good people (attitude is usually like 90% of it). It isn't unfair to pay someone who already has most of what they need to do the shells, per shell unless I was only looking for a one-off, but I assure you, I am not! That being said, I don't know how many full drums sets worth of shells I would ask for, so I guess I do nee someone who is willing to be flexible and experiment with ideas along the way. I mean, it's not like they're worth only 40 or 50 bucks - more like 5-10 times that. So Ron, I would reword your last statement, it was a bit cutting and uninformed. They are only doing half the work with regards to the drum, it would still need to be sanded, stained/painted, drilled, hardware mounted (my own custom designed and machined hardware which is not cheap), advertised, transported, and sold before I even saw a profit. And like most business out there, the profit comes in numbers.

I am not funding someones "Hey I think i can do that but don't know where to start so I'll monkey around and buy some tools, maybe a new headstock, cherry picker...)" just for one shell that isn't very fantastic. No, I received one call/email. "I can do it, it's not a problem" the guy said. That's what I am looking for. I need confidence, ability, sheer talent, and someone already set up to do most of it. And for that, I am willing to compensate fairly, which over a number of shells will really start to mean something. I mean think of it this way, if you get all the appropiate sizes of shells from one log large enough to make the kick (or bass) drum, especially if you bought a whole tree that could give you 2, 3, or even 4 or more of these kick sizes, you are making an incredible profit on a very minimal investment (the tree, some sealer, and kiln drying time) and your labour (which would decrease with time and custom jigs). Oh, and yes, I do have high standards, if I didn't, I'd just go ask a high-school teacher around here instead of calling across the continent.

So yes Ron, you did "miss something..."! Sounds like you are lookin' out for your brothers though, and I can certainly appreciate that.

Thank you for confirming my belief.

You expect someone to buy a tree, have it transported to their business, cut it to size, inspect for defects and use only the best sections, create jigs, turn some shells, check for and burn the defects that nature had hidden in the wood, kiln dry the blanks, check for and burn the defects that may have happened during the drying process, turn a second time, check again for any defect that may have showed up, then ship you a shell in hope that it meets your very high quality standards and hope that you are willing to pay for their work.

BTW you are right you never said you wanted someone else to fund you, you just said you had no money.

First you say "And like most business out there, the profit comes in numbers" then you say "I don't know how many full drums sets worth of shells I would ask for, so I guess I do nee someone who is willing to be flexible and experiment with ideas along the way." So which is it?


You say " I am not funding someones "Hey I think i can do that but don't know where to start" Is sounds like you don't even know where to start but you expect us to read your mind when you say "I do nee someone who is willing to be flexible and experiment with ideas along the way." Of course you want someone "who is already an incredibly capable turner isn't afraid of the challenge that this poses." And you want them to do it on their dime

This sounds like a partnership destined to fail with the turner losing the most.


"I received one call/email. "I can do it, it's not a problem" the guy said."

To this guy if he really exists, my advice is to get a hefty deposit before you start.

[David Loewen]

Ron, your concerns are duly noted, but I believe you are getting too excited about this. You have taken some comments and tried to make them say something that they weren't intended to say. Clearly you aren't the person I am looking for, but thank you for you time and interest. Others may heed your warning, but if they truly believe that they can do it, and don't think they have to buy a whole tree for one shell, I'm sure they can decide for themselves what cost is worth their time. Ron, I am an honest and integerous man, and am not interested in ripping any one off, and don't appreciate you insinuating anything of the sort. But yes, you are correct, this is experimenting with the possibility of Solid shells. They have to be quality, but like anything else, they do have to be within a someone's price range. If they are not, then what's the point. It is being done, so I know it can be. If someone wants 5-10k down just to try this, to be quite honest, I can't. If someone can do it with what they have or doesn't mind a minimal jig investment or something similar, then awesome. I'm not the devil. I just have a great Idea and wanted some help with it, is that so bad?

This is a post looking for something/someone, and that person and I can work out the details. Would you do me the courtesy of allowing me to find someone and work out the details with them please (and I mean this in the nicest and most sincere manner possible). Please and thank you Ron.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, and if I have, which I may very well have, than please accept my most humbe apology - I do not mean to offend, after all, this is your "turf" not mine!

[David Loewen]

Ken, thank you for the accountability. I do not intend a harsh tone. i was just trying to confirm details (which is difficult when on the defensive). I think an undue amount of sarcasm might be coming across that isn't there (or for sure wasn't intended) on my part. I will be careful.

[Montgomery Scott]

Water jet cutting sounds like the best approach to coring the large stock. A company I used to work for many years ago would use water jet cutting to cut up to 6" thick glass slabs.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David...What you are requesting would be extremely difficult for the average turner. What you probably need is someone who is already setup as a production turner. You might have better luck by posting over on the AAW site....http://www.woodturner.org/

Good luck with your endeavors!

[Reed Gray]

David,
You might try Vernon Leibrant. www.vkleibrant.com or vkleibrant@yahoo.com. He is in Everson, WA. I have seen him at shows, and he turns some bowls up to 30 inch diameter.
robo hippy

[Chuck Lenz]

I'm with Ron on this one. Even if I could do it, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 ft pole.

[Bill Grumbine]

I've been reading this thread, but staying out of it up until now. Speaking as a professional turner who handles large pieces of wood, there is no way I would want to touch this thing. Ron is right, the main risk falls to the turner trying to accommodate the specs given. If the solid drum idea falls through for whatever reason, you still have the option to put your fancy hardware on a laminated drum and you are really out nothing but the time you have spent so far on this.

The handling of logs the size needed for a job like this is beyond most people. It requires a large investment in material handling tools, as well as the space to use them. Then there are the logs themselves. Then there is the skill needed to turn them, core them or whatever, and then the space to store them and dry them. I can tell you right now, I have friends with kilns, and they would not be happy to see me showing up with space gobbling hoops. It cuts into their own business too far, and that is one of the reasons I think you are not seeing a response here. I'm not interested, because it would take away from my regular business way too much for a very risky venture. And, the worst part of it is, it might take off, and I would be stuck doing it whether or not I wanted to for who knows how long.

There are people who will have the equipment to do this. What you need to do is find someone who has not just that, but the inclination as well, and I think that is going to be the hard part. There are reasons there are only a couple of companies doing this. And by the way, Ron is a good friend of mine, and I respect his business sense enormously. If you knew the resources he has just for knowledge about this kind of stuff, you would too.

Bill

[David Loewen]

Bill, I appreciate your input, and just for the record, I did appreciate what Ron was saying, just not how he was saying it. A person can have all the knowledge, money, good looks, and business sense in the world, and still not be very nice to talk to. Know what I mean?

[David Epperson]

This part of the thread is where the possible drifted away from the feasible.

One could take the section of tree trunk destined to be the blank, make one cut into the blank from the outside (OK it will require someone with a band saw with at least as much capacity as the tallest blank). Once into the blank to a depth which would be the thickness of the rough shell, turn and make the cut around the inside periphery of the shell blank. If you took one of the "solid shells you describe as your goal, cut one cut from end to end and then reglued it together that is what is being discussed, or if one of the otherwise "perfect shells cracked in one spot and was then glued back together. The good part about this method is that

1: there is only one glue line with an area of the drum shell thickness times the drum height - A 24" tall drum with 1/2" sides would have only 12 square inches of glue seam. Sort of like a shell with a single stave.

2: several blanks can be harvested from the same tree section - each one size smaller than the last.

3: I still think that DNA drying would help reduce losses, but even if not the sections could be dried in a more or less reassembled formation after roughing, leaving some air gap, with the "rings" "stickered" to hold them apart for airflow.

One MIGHT even consider some sort of spring stave hoop for maintaining a round shape during drying.

The same approach COULD be accomplished by using either a long stroke recip action and a band saw blade (24" stroke scroll saw?) Which would not even require the one glue line.

Slow RPM with a router cutter (both ID and OD) would probably be the best route to take. And require the least complex/large equipment. Roughing could even be done with a power hand planer with rounded blades to match the diameter (Roughly). Powered neander if you will.

The real sad part is I've got an Elm stump in the back yard that is right at 6' tall and around 42" across at the widest point, and more than 24" across 90° from that. Could possibly get 3 attempts out of the one stump.
But I don't have the equipment to even think of attempting it. Much less the practical skill. It's still standing there because I don't even have the chainsaw with the horsepower to take it down. Elm wouldn't make a great drum, but it would be free wood to practice the technique on.

[Chuck Lenz]

Someone pass the popcorn please. I've got a feeling this is going to get good.

[David Loewen]

Chuck, you're hillarious, LOL... Everyone needs someone like you around. The only problem is, I don't know how much popcorn is going to help, I think the post has just about exhausted itself.

[Jeffrey Fusaro]

hi, david--

interesting concept.

i've enjoyed reading your enthusiastic posts, and some of the comments that have been made in return.

so far, it seems like there was one poster that looked like he had the knowledge and equipment to handle a job this size. i believe that he had a pattern maker's lathe. unfortunately, it sounded like his hands were already full with other work.

i did a quick search of the thomas register and looked for "pattern makers". here is the link to what i found.

http://www.thomasnet.com/nsearch.html?cov=NA&what=Patterns&heading=57552101&navsec=prodsearch

you may be able to explore in more detail beyond this link.

i think that you are correct in your stated approach. you need to find someone who already has the time, tools and talent to pull this off - the tools being the biggest obstacle. there's lots of talent on this forum, but your drum project is probably beyond the scope of what tools most folks have at their disposal. a pattern making shop may already have all of the tooling and fixturing required for similar work, so there would be minimal specialty tooling required up front for your project. that would also mean that there would be less up front capital required on both ends. since pattern makers often work in wood, they may already have a source for kiln dried stock, or at a minimum, access to a kiln.

just some food for thought.

gotta go home, now. i'll be following the thread later this evening.

good luck.

[David Loewen]

Thank you Jeff, I really appreciate the link.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Someone pass the popcorn please. I've got a feeling this is going to get good.


Chuck.....I wouldn't be buying any Reddenbacher stock just yet.....more than one moderator is watching this thread!:eek: ;) :D

[Ted Calver]

David,
If the image loads, this is what I meant about the single glue joint way back when

[David Loewen]

Hi Ted, thanks for putting some energy into this. OK, so if I understand you correctly, you are suggesting to cut the different shells out with some kind of deep saw blade (separating them that way). I couldn't call it a "True Solid" shell then, and I fear there would be too much controversy and explaining to do over why I did it that way. What I am endeavoring to do is not use any glue at all.

Why couldn't you simply pilot a deep hole in-between the first and second shell and start cutting that way? That would work, wouldn't it? I don't want to cut into the shells. I know you guys might be thinking, "who cares, you would hardly see the seam..." or something similar, but I just don't want to do it that way. Keeping the shell as a true solid drum is integral to my marketing strategy.

[Ted Calver]

David,
That was Steve Wilsons suggestion from yesterday. Made sense to me.

[Ben Grunow]

Do they really turn them?

Sound to me like (maybe better never than late with this thread) it would be easier to make the drums using steam bent flat boards (thicknessed and profiled as detailed in pics) that are bent into a round form (like the rings for the heads he has already). Then, when dry, cut to establish the right length (circumference) and glue the edges together.

The largest, 22" diameter (roughly 70" circumference), would have 6 glue lines if 12" wide stock were used. The cost would probably be more like $500 to $800 per drum with less waiting and way fewer unknowns and limitations. Not trying to pee on the parade but I would make them this way if it were me. I cant imagine that even the most trained ear could ever tell the difference with just 6 glue lines. It could also be done with a CNC machine but the drying, the cracking. Too many variables again.

THis is a fun thread. Good conversation and real talk, no banter.

Ben

[Andy Hoyt]

I've been reading too. And I have actually spoken with David about this on the phone. Why? Because I enjoy the mental exercise of thinking a problem through the entire process to identify the pitfalls and wanted to cut to the chase. And from a technical and mechanical perspective those obstacles are numerous. But I firmly believe that a basic tenet of wood turning is that problem solving is a must-have skill set. And as such, whatever those issues may be, there are undoubtedly methodologies to be discovered that will mitigate them. But that's not what I perceive to be broken here.

The problem here is that assigning a monetary value to the endeavor is actually only the second biggest hurdle to clear. The R&D costs will be enormous and the ongoing cost of satisfying QC will be stratospheric. So much so that I now see this as a non-starter for most folks. And for those who do possess the gear and talent to repeatedly produce these cylinders to exacting standards are either too busy to bother, or will be too pricey for David's pocketbook.

However, the really big issue is one I hadn't considered until I began reading the linked sites and surfing onward from them. What I've gleaned is that those few people who are producing the highest quality cylinders for this niche market are not only wood craftsmen but musicians too. The guy up in Newfoundland has it right. He works with the drummer to develop specs and then pulls from a vast inventory to custom produce the cylinder based on those specs and desired qualities. He does all this in house and has his own eyes, his own ears, and his own hands influencing every step.

Sadly, I just don't see how these cylinders can become a simple outsourced component. They are the very heart and soul of the finished product.

So, David. Here's my suggestion. Learn to turn these yourself. Invest the time, resources, and energy into your dream so that one day a Loewen Drum will indeed come from your shop and your hands, not just your assembly facility.

I trust you will accept these words as an honest assessment from someone who would actually love to see this fly - and is thoroughly tone deaf.

[Pat Salter]

- and is thoroughly tone deaf.

it's from eating too much ice cream. :rolleyes:

[Ken Fitzgerald]

it's from eating too much ice cream. :rolleyes:

Pat...........I think it's from drinking those Moxie floats......:eek: :rolleyes: :D

[Bill Grumbine]

The problem here is that assigning a monetary value to the endeavor is actually only the second biggest hurdle to clear. The R&D costs will be enormous and the ongoing cost of satisfying QC will be stratospheric. So much so that I now see this as a non-starter for most folks. And for those who do possess the gear and talent to repeatedly produce these cylinders to exacting standards are either too busy to bother, or will be too pricey for David's pocketbook.


It cuts into their own business too far, and that is one of the reasons I think you are not seeing a response here. I'm not interested, because it would take away from my regular business way too much for a very risky venture. And, the worst part of it is, it might take off, and I would be stuck doing it whether or not I wanted to for who knows how long.

There are people who will have the equipment to do this. What you need to do is find someone who has not just that, but the inclination as well, and I think that is going to be the hard part.

Same sense, different syntax. I was not drinking Moxie when I posted mine though. :D

Bill

[Ron Sardo]

So, David. Here's my suggestion. Learn to turn these yourself. Invest the time, resources, and energy into your dream so that one day a Loewen Drum will indeed come from your shop and your hands, not just your assembly facility.

Well Said Andy

[Art Mulder]

...And, the worst part of it is, it might take off, and I would be stuck doing it whether or not I wanted to ...

:eek::D:eek::D:eek::D

Just caught up on this thread. And this struck me as hilarious.

I hope you make it work, David. And when you do, come back and post pictures!

[Jim Becker]

Why couldn't you simply pilot a deep hole in-between the first and second shell and start cutting that way?

Band saws have a continuous loop, so there would be no way to get the blade into the hole.
-------

David, I just read Andy's very thoughtful post and I have to agree with him after thinking about it for awhile. Practically speaking, and to get the quality you undoubtedly design (and yes, I'm a musician, although not active), you'll want to be in complete control over the entire process as that fellow he describes is. I also think you need to "step into the vortex"...as they say around here...

[Steven Wilson]

Jim, the metal working guys cut and reweld bandsaw blades all the time.

If I were making custom drums I would want to work with a forester selecting trees. I might have rough wet shells produced by a contractor but I would want to bring the final processing and thicknessing in house. A solid drum shell would be like a violin top or guitar soundboard (and bracing); it would be a perfect canditate for individually voicing the shell. To do that you need to control final thickness - something you can't outsource.

[Ron Sardo]

Did you ever rip a log in half with a chainsaw?

Imagine cutting endgrain with a bandsaw.
Now what type of problems will you have with a nice thick green log?

[Montgomery Scott]

"Band saws have a continuous loop, so there would be no way to get the blade into the hole."

There is one possibility. One could take an unwelded band section, feed it through a pilot hole in the log section on the band saw and weld it together on the band saw. Lee Valley has a band saw welding jig that appears that it would work. After the cut is done the weld is broken and removed from the log section.

I still think water jet cutting is the best option for roughing, though. It is very accurate and cuts straight through thick sections well.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Montgomery...........And how much would a water jet cost?.....How many turners have them? A high powered laser would do a better job by not introducing additional moisture into the wood.....but there again....they're not too readily available and are extremely expensive.

[David Loewen]

Thanks Art - thanks for the encouragement. Sure will post pics.

[David Loewen]

Yeah, I can see where you guys are coming from with regards to me having to have total control over the shell for tonal purposes, but the thing is, the thickness of the shell isn't going to have much effect on the actual tone of the shell (with one exception), just volume and resonance. The thinner the shell, the (and here is the exception) warmer the sound and the longer it will resonate. The thicker the shell the sharper the attack and the louder it will be. When I think of tone, I think of its actual pitch (although it is a little more complicated than that), and although the thickness of the shell may add or take away from the warmth from the sound, the diameter and depth of the drums is what dictates it's tuning range. Also, most drummers know what they want already regarding the diameter and depth of any given drum for their kit (or a whole kit), and they are pretty partial to the thickness of the shell as well - which the industry has already pretty much standardized - probably due mostly to durability issues).

The drum industry has conditioned people to think in terms of actual plys. So for example, someone might boast about the warmth of a 4 ply or 6 ply, or about the projection of an 8 ply... This is all quite deceiving since I have multiple ply shells at home produced by the same company several years apart from each other, both 6 ply, and there is a world of difference between the thickness. What I mean is that they measure the number of ply's, but not the thickness of each. If you look at the actual plys of the shell (visable by staring at the open ends), you will see that none of the plys are the same thickness.

The goal for me would be to have the ability to offer the drummer of variety of thicknesses for the snare since this is where most drummers are quite picky, but to more or less standardize the sizes of the rest of the shells by trying to achieve the warmest sound (thinnest shell) while at the same time assuring that it was strong enough (thick enough) to endure getting smacked repeatedly with a stick or beater (bass drum). This is the only reason that drum makers us what are called 'reinforcement rings'. These are simply 1/2 or 3/4" "strips" (I am trying to be descriptive) of wood that are inserted and glued inside at either end of the drum shells openings. They reinforce the 'round' of the shell adding strength, can offer awful overtones. The ideal would be no re-rings, but then that increases the thickness the shell has to be which in turn detracts from the warmth of the shell. The species of wood also has a lot to do with how a drum sounds, but here again, people know what they want, and really, there are only 3 kinds of wood that are in any sort of demand for drums (Maple, Birch, and Mahogany).

I mean, I mean ideally the thinner the better, that's the goal for the most part. So yes and no. I need to be able to be in control of the process, but there is no reason that I can't do that over the phone, using USPS or FedEx as an in-between.

[Steven Wilson]

So, if you wanted to tune pitch (or resonant frequency) you would tune pitch by varying length (lets just keep diameter constant)? The shells you want, do you want a constant thickness from rim to rim or do you want integral reinforcement rings incorporated into the top and bottom rims (i.e. leave the wood thicker at this point)?

[Montgomery Scott]

He would sub the work out, just like the company that I worked for did. No need at all to buy the equipment and no need to ask a turner to have one. In fact there is a company that does it not very far from David either. Flow International in Kent, Washington does that work.

Water jet would not introduce more moisture to a green piece of wood and unlike lasers they are relatively low tech.

[Doug Shepard]

Lots of interesting discussion going on here. I'm not a turner, but something's been nagging at me with this idea. Lets assume the mechanics of turning these, drying, cracking/splitting, economics aren't an issue. It would seem to me that you'd have to make a shell that follows the growth rings to maintain any strength in the shell, especially at the thicknesses you're talking about. I haven't seen too many trees with perfectly circular rings that also run perfectly vertical. So wouldn't turning one of these be garanteed to result in some grain runout and weak short grain at least at a couple of places along that cylinder? Granted, there's more stresses being exterted on the end-grain top end than at the sides, but the purpose of these things is for people to HIT them, not always on the drum heads either. Then there's the stresses from stand mounting hardware attached to the sides. I'm picturing somebody a little less severe on his equipment than Keith Moon, but how do these not eventually become an expensive pile of kindling? Now carving a shell doesn't seem like the growth ring following couldn't be accomplished, but how do you take a round turning process and apply it to not-so-round growth rings without getting weak grain runout sections?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

David......try contacting this guy via his website.....http://onegoodturn.ca/howidoit/v1.html

I suspect he can handle it......whether or not he'd want to do it?

[Jim Becker]

Jim, the metal working guys cut and reweld bandsaw blades all the time.

Yup, they do...and many of those metal working saws have the fixtures on the machine to help facilitate the welding and they are not cutting something flammable or in an environment that has a lot of flammable material lying about like a woodworking shop. I'm not sure I'd want to do that with a nice hunk of wood involved, however.

So yes, it can be done, but it's unlikely to be a viable solution, especially with a 24" tall log mounted on the saw. It's a matter of practicality, in my mind.

[David Loewen]

Hey guys, I spoke with a Water Jet Company out here, and they were pretty sure that they could do it, but the problem is that with cutting something to that depth, the cut starts to angle even up to an inch, so that's no good. I have been checking into some most of the things that have been suggested here, but have yet to hear back from anyone. I'll keep you posted.

[Montgomery Scott]

You know that for roughing out the drum shell, that kind of tolerance is not that bad. It's a lot easier and less time consuming to water jet it to rough dimensions and then have a woodworker do the finish work. having a turner do the roughing out work will be very time consuming.

[Steven Wilson]

I just wouldn't want to try coring out multiple shells from one blank hanging 2 1/2 feet off of a face plate screwed into endgrain. I also don't relish using a coring tool hanging 2 1/2 feet off of a tool rest, major pucker factor. Not so bad for tom tom's and snare drums but floor tom's and bass drums would be thrilling - to many opportunities for a nasty lathe flipping catch.

[Kim Ford]

Fellow Creekers;

I have been following this thread for the last couple of days and just really have to congratulate every turner for the serious and inventive thought process that have went into the posts. I used to be involved with a commercial fixture shop and therefore look at this with a little different slant.

I would attack the challenge of coring tubes out of a log, and then machining those to precise tolerances with industrial type equipment in mind. To core the initial log, a large pattern makers lathe with a compound, a boring bar, and a couple of large steady rests. For the precision machining portion; a through center adjustable chuck, a tool holder for the router from the compound, and the two steady rests. Really not a big deal for a fixture or pattern makers shop, considering some of the patterns and fixtures they make, except like any other manufacturing process the first one is always a bit pricey.

Getting quality wood and then being able to cure it in such a way that spoilage was within acceptable limits would be a huge variable.

I have marveled at the creative ideas I have read, and understand why David posted on this type of a site to see if there was another way to accomplish this in a cottage industry type environment. I will continue to watch because someone may come up with a way to make it feasible. My hat is off to all who have posted and wish David the best. Oh and by the way I am out of popcorn, if this goes on much longer I will have to go to the store.

Kim

[TYLER WOOD]

You could have an extremely large hole saw manufactured. Run it with a lawn mower engine. Use it similar to a drill press. Blank on the ground (or support so not to run the blad in the dirt or concrete), motor and blade coming down. Would something like this give you easier coring than actually turning it? Still would be difficult to manufacture the system, especially the hole saw to be 20" diameter, but not impossible. You could have three or four different diameter blades manufacured and the get maybe a floor tom, stand tom, and snare out of on 24" diameter 24" long log. Blades something similar to what the take concrete core samples with.

Is this idea stupid??? or feasable??? Just thinking outloud.....

[Joe Tonich]

David,

I think the only way you could do this is if you can invest in your own machinery. I agree that you would have to work closely with a tree guy who knows his stuff, and you would have to learn how to use the machinery or hire someone who does.

I think a vertical lathe would suit your needs.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/jt6089/verticallathe.jpg

You would have repeatability for the different sizes your looking for, and could use it for roughing and finishing. You could rig something up to load the logs easily, maybe even a pallet jack. What you would need is to figure how to dry it (the rough) and have it retain it's shape for finishing it to size. Maybe welding a cage the dia. of the rough and using the alc. method.....(Maybe PM David Smith (a member here who developed the method) and see if he could help with drying the roughs.....) till they dry would work in this application.

Wishing you success in your dream..........:D

[Jason Slutsky]

David,

I (like most people on this forum) have been watching this thread intently.

I haven't been turning for long so I would never attempt to start a project such as this. I've been a musician for many years though and appreciate what you want.

You've received a lot of thoughtful replies from many people here who IMHO, know what they're talking about and have gained my respect since I've been posting here.

Having said that, I did a search for solid wood drums and came up with a drum maker in Australia who does exactly what you're looking for. I didn't see this mentioned in any earlier posts but forgive me if it was. They are called Spirit Drums (a quick search will find them for you). They turn drums from solid pieces of ironwood. They say that a 5 piece set will cost $5500 including air freight (which I think is an extremely fair price). They also say that a 20" bass drum is the max size. I saw that you posted a link earlier to a solid wood drum maker but you said they didn't sell their shells. These guys do. They've obviously put the R&D into the process and can deliver.

As a musician, I think these drums look gorgeous! And as a turner, I'm intrigued by their process and may write to them to ask if they plan on making an instructional video on their process.

If anything I have said missed a point made earlier...I apologize.

I wish you luck!

Jason

[CPeter James]

Check out this site and read the Q&A and check out the photos. I have seen many of his works and the process sounds similar to what you want

http://www.woodshades.com/

CPeter

[Martin Shupe]

Jason has found your solution, so it can be done. The only question is how?

Check out the Spirit Drums website. It sounds like they have cracked the code on how to do this. I am not sure they would want to share their trade secrets with future competition, though. Also, they have picked an extremely dense species of wood for their drums, and I don't know of a comparable wood available in North America.

This has been an interesting thread.

Good luck, and let us know when you are successful in your quest.

[Brian Weick]

1.) You have 24" of turning radius on the lathe between centers. The largest drum size is 22" . First you need to find the wright log -. very green of coarse . If the diameter of the log is 28" you can't start the process between centers.
2.) Mount it on a 20" outboard plate with a centering pin and turn it down to 23 " ,once that has been completed remove the plate with the log still attached and transfer it to a inside turning plate housing, fasten it to the housing and move it to the inside turning between centers- now you can turn it down to the actual diameter of 22" with the log between centers using the tail stock at this point.
3.) There will have to be some curing with the log at this point (drying time) before you can get the final finish od of 22" . Once the drying has been completed finish the turning to the desired outside diameter ( a Pattern lathe with a cross slide compound carriage is the easiest and most accurate way of getting a true cylindrical drum shell.
4.) True the other end of the face so it is square to outside of the rough cut turning.
5.) Once you complete that process and it has been properly dried, finish the outside diameter turning (and it would have to be the final finished outside turning) back of the tail stock (used as a center point jig for the other side not mounted to a plate) and move the carriage perpendicular to the bed way. locate the desired wall thickness of the drum on the face of the log but back of 1/8-1/4' from that desired wall thickness and start feeding the extended auger cutting tool mounted on the tool holder carriage into the face of the log.
6.) Cut into the face to form the inner part of the drum shell wall 10 to 10-1/2" in, once that is completed move in gradually to the the desired wall thickness (3/8" in thickness)
7.) with that accomplished take the log of the lathe move the tail stock center point end , remove the faceplate from the other end and mount it on the tail stock end. fasten it back up to the lathe (between centers again)
8.) Start process 5 over again but only going in 8 " with the rough cut and the final cut to the 10 to 10 1/2" point on a low speed , the cutting auger reaching the other matching side and the shell is should now be free from the rest of the log and you have a solid wood core drum shell.

At this point it's sanding and finish work. If there is a thicker rim (top and bottom of the drum shell) that is going to be needed you can still do all of the process I have mentioned but you will have to auger out more than I have stated to allow for the thickness of the rim diameter at the top and bottom. You could possibly get 2-3 drums out of one log- but not the entire 5pc drum shell- not with these rims .

I have no doubt that this is feasible at all- the only discouragement is the log itself - as turners we all are aware of those wonderful cracks that can happen after drying - that is the only thing that worries me about this.
Brian

[David Loewen]

What if you start with a kiln dried piece - that's at least 22". That way, you would have no chance of shrinkage, cracking, or warping, and you would definately be able to get all of the shells for a 5 or 6 piece kit out of the same kiln dried blank. I've already talked to Bill over there, and told him what I'm after and he's said that getting the wood would be no problem, just finding someone with the equipment large enough would be. If I had a lathe large enough and the knowledge/know how, I'd do it myself, but I just don't have 20k or whatever to invest in a the kind of lathe necessary to do it. I think the extra cost of a kiln dried piece would definitely be the starting point.


Penn's Woods
45 Coleman Road
Port Allegany, PA
16743

Phone 1-814-260-4586
Cell 814-331-9764
Store http://stores.pennswoodsstock.net (http://stores.pennswoodsstock.net/)

[Ron Sardo]

David, why not buy the wood and have it shipped to Brian?:rolleyes::D;)

[Steven Wilson]

David,

You're not going to find a 24" long, 24" diameter kiln dried piece of wood. Besides, when wood is wet it is very, very easy to work. When it's dry the shavings are very small and it takes a great deal of time to work. You're best served by roughing out the shells wet (and thick), seal them, let them air dry for awhile to reduce moisture content, turn them again and at that point (say 1" - 1 1/2" thick) have them kiln dried if needed and then final turned to size.

[David Loewen]

Ron, if Brian is willing, I am open to working out whatever he thinks is best. William, I can definitely understand that a wet log would be way easier and less time consuming to deal with in this respect (but then there exists the issue of drying the shell had trying not to crack it), however, with a kiln dried piece - and Penn's definitely says they're kiln dried (even at that thickness), there would be no worry about shrinkage/cracking/warping, and so I could definitely get all the shells I need out of one log. I asked Bill over at Penn's to confirm that a 22" (ish) x 22" (ish) blank was in fact "kiln Dried" and not merely "Cured" or aged or whatever, and he said for a second time that it was KD'd. So I don't know man, I am not a pro turner, just a fan of nice wood and what I can get it to sound like for my purposes. I don't know anything that I haven't posted here already, I've laid it all out. Thanks for your input and suggestions.

[Jeff Bower]

I just had to post something here.....100 responses....is that a record for SMC??

[Ron Sardo]

Ron, if Brian is willing, I am open to working out whatever he thinks is best. William, I can definitely understand that a wet log would be way easier and less time consuming to deal with in this respect (but then there exists the issue of drying the shell had trying not to crack it), however, with a kiln dried piece - and Penn's definitely says they're kiln dried (even at that thickness), there would be no worry about shrinkage/cracking/warping, and so I could definitely get all the shells I need out of one log. I asked Bill over at Penn's to confirm that a 22" (ish) x 22" (ish) blank was in fact "kiln Dried" and not merely "Cured" or aged or whatever, and he said for a second time that it was KD'd. So I don't know man, I am not a pro turner, just a fan of nice wood and what I can get it to sound like for my purposes. I don't know anything that I haven't posted here already, I've laid it all out. Thanks for your input and suggestions.



You can't kiln dry logs, especially ones that are 22" thick. It will just crack.

Edit in:
Kiln dried wood can also warp

[Kim Ford]

You can't kiln dry logs, especially ones that are 22" thick. It will just crack.


Ron is totally correct. You can put a blank the size you have described in a kiln, but at best you will only stablize the outer 2". I have done a lot of re-sawing over the years with "kiln dryed" material and believe me the inner wood is not "dry". And don't forget you have the pith to deal with.

"It will just crack"

[Shannon Grizzell]

Like most of you, I've found this thread to be very interesting. So here's with my 2 cents.

As a drummer and percussion instructor in my former life, I'm intrigued by the idea of one piece shells. Done right, I'm sure the sound will be extraordinary. I'm certainly not set up to do a project like this though. Turning a 20+" blank outboard on my Jet Mini would probably be a harrowing experience. :D

I wonder, though, if turning the bass drum shell as a single piece really gains you that much in terms of sound quality, especially given the increase in complexity and safety risk it represents. You don't want the same sustained ring from a bass as you do from a tom or snare. Consequently, they're usually muffled or damped by some means, which would seem to negate the benefit of a one-piece shell.

So, starting out on a project like this, it might be worthwhile to focus your initial efforts efforts on the snare and toms. Get the process for those down and use staved or laminated construction for the bass. You could use veneer to match the bass drum finish to the rest of the kit. Perhaps sell a few kits that way or maybe start with snare drums, then once you have some operating capital and have secured a reliable supply of sufficiently sized timber take that final step to the bass shells.

In any case, best of luck to you on this effort David. Post some pics for us when you get your first kit finished. And hey how about an audio sample too!

[David Loewen]

Thanks for the input Shannon, fantistic observation as far ad your comments regarding the sustain of the kick drum. I agree, in fact, the only piece of my 4 piece kit that really makes me smile is the kick, (although while the tone of the other drums is alright, the sustain isn't there). The problem then is a marketing issue, I couldn't put "True Solid Custom Drums". I couldn't downplay the amount of glue used if I still use it on the kick, and also, my drums couldn't retain their value as such, or be as valuable in the first place. The thing is, I want to capatilize on the market long before it even has a chance to get glutted. Besides, sustain isn't the only issue, like I said before, glue is a tone inhibitor, it doesn't matter what kind of glue it is, and so I know a solid shell will still produce a warmer tone (which is crucial in a kick drum as I am sure you can attest to).

[Jason Slutsky]

Shannon,

The site I mentioned in my post here yesterday (Australian Solid Shell Drum makers Spirit Drums) have some audio files on their website. Let us know what they sound like to a drummers ear.

[David Loewen]

No kidding, if nothing else, I'm totally stoked that I created such a buzz around here - 3182 views. Holy Crap!!! I honestly thought noone would even look at this thing, but I didn't know where else to go. Thanks everyone for your creativity and time. Still don't have the shells though.

[Brian Weick]

They just had an episode about the very subject we are discussing on this forum. North east area from 6-6:30 "HOW IT WORKS" They also talk about laminating the shell - very interesting turners- you won't believe what they said- I think you should watch this David.

[Brian Weick]

6-6:30pm northeast area.
Brian

[David Loewen]

Man, I don't have cable or sattelite, and I just did a quick google search for Drum manufatcturing + TLC (and the learning channel + drum, and everything else I could think of...) and I didn't get any reasonable hits. What the heck - now everyone's gonna want to do it. What'd they say? Tell me, tell me...???

[Curt Fuller]

I haven't read this entire thread so I apologize if someone has already mentioned this. But for those that are into coring bowls, do they make or could you make a straight coring cutter that would cut to the depth required for the drum? Cut to within an inch or so of going through the log and then cut the end off with a chain saw. That would give you a large diameter hollow blank to begin the curing process. Plus it would leave you with the wood for the next size down drum, saving on finding suitable wood. Once cured you should be able to jam the blank with a heavy duty jam chuck and proceed with finishing the outside surface and get a fairly decent inside surface too. Whoever takes this project on will need a lathe with some real horsepower. And you might need to put some ballast in your nickers to hold you down if you get a good catch.

[David Loewen]

Curt, that's exactly what I think I think, but then again, now Brian's mentioning that TLC special which I am not going to get a chance to see, has got me thinking. Brian, what's up?

[Loy Hawes]

How It's Made (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-schedules/series.html?paid=1.14602.119662.16541.x)

Episode 28


There are ways of finding the episode online. I could tell you, however with the Torrent of negativity it might bring I will refrain.

[Ron Sardo]

I haven't read this entire thread so I apologize if someone has already mentioned this. But for those that are into coring bowls, do they make or could you make a straight coring cutter that would cut to the depth required for the drum? Cut to within an inch or so of going through the log and then cut the end off with a chain saw. That would give you a large diameter hollow blank to begin the curing process. Plus it would leave you with the wood for the next size down drum, saving on finding suitable wood. Once cured you should be able to jam the blank with a heavy duty jam chuck and proceed with finishing the outside surface and get a fairly decent inside surface too. Whoever takes this project on will need a lathe with some real horsepower. And you might need to put some ballast in your nickers to hold you down if you get a good catch.

That's called R&D, David is looking for someone else to pay for that

[Patrick Taylor]

...with the Torrent of negativity it might bring I will refrain....

Great quote Loy! That made me laugh. :D

[Brian Weick]

How about 4,480lbs worth of an Oliver 20C - You should have watched "how it works" They said wright in the program "laminated drum shells give a crisper sound than Solid wood core drum shells" - David should re-think his strategy" like the idea, but- what are the benefits? If you loose sound Quality- "what's the point of creating drum shells from a log that is diminishing the quality and the resonance of the drum? - you tell me?
Brian

[David Loewen]

Yeah, no kidding, but I just did a torrent search and didn't find the file, where can I nab it from?

[Brian Weick]

If you saw the episode , then the verdict is in , they stated in the episode that , " ply drum shells give a crisper sound quality to the drum rather than solid wood drums" are they wrong?
Just some thought Dave, after watching that, - you need to watch the episode ~ give it some thought David> . Where is the benefit? I am not convinced it's worth all the effort. Why would you pay more for these drums if you are not going to get as crisp of sound quality from a solid wood drum shell as you would with a laminated shell? I would like to hear your opinion ? Why is this way of production and material that you propose ~ better?
thanks
Brian

[Patrick Taylor]

...I want to capatilize on the market long before it even has a chance to get glutted...

Not trying to get too far OT from the technical challenges here, but I can't help but notice that you're pretty interested in market share for someone that has "no business plan." I think Ron has a good point that if you're interested in market share and capitalizing from this, you're going to have to lay down some investment funds for R&D or convince someone else to. (I think you already said you do not have R&D $ available, but that was after you said you'd would pay for expensive drum shells so I'm not sure...)

It seems unclear to me whether you're looking for more background information from this thread (i.e. just doing your homework) so you can go off and capitalize, or if you're looking for someone to do work for you (either production or R&D or both).

If it's the first, then I think you may have tapped the keg dry...

If it's the second, then I think you've already been given some places to ask (e.g. AAW, etc), and apparently nobody here has bitten so far, and I guess they're not going to given the likelihood that most SMC turners have read this thread.

To be clear: I'm not trying to make anyone feel unwelcome here, but it feels that this thread has lost some direction over the last few pages. Since you've gotten a ton of great suggestions, what is it that you're looking for now? This is not clear to me anymore, so it may not be to others either. If you clarify your plan or possible options from here then maybe you can get some good advice on what to do next.

FYI, I'm no MBA, so this is really only worth $0.02 :D

[Brian Weick]

That was good! :) how true that statement id:)
Brian
well done!

[David Loewen]

Brian, you make a good point, however, I am not looking for a more "crisp" sound, that's the whole point, I am looking for a warmer tone. I have played and heard steambent and stave shell snares and compared to ply shells there is no comparison - but the steambent has too much stress on it (although I would possibly consider this method if all else fails) and can go out of round. and the stave shell is noticeably a stave construct as well as still uses glue. Anyway, A non-drummer doesn't know what a drummer (at least a good one) really wants out of his kit. I don't expect you to understand, you are wod turners, not drum-makers, I am just looking for someone sell me some shells. If I knew that you (or whoever) was capable of doing it and do it efficiently with a minimal jig set-up, I would front that, but I am not interested in Joe Blow buying a new lathe on my dime without any clue if his ability could provide me with a solid shell that wouldn't fall apart. I appreciate the concern, but this is what I am trying to do, and have very good tonal reasons for doing it. If you had a solid glue drum, trust me, it would have tremendous crack, but trust me, it would sound like garbage - it's the same with various species of wood (i.e. poplar, spruce, pine...), it just doesn't sound very good! Glue doesn't sound good. Acrylic shells are quite popular because they project like a rocket, but to tell you the truth, they sound like crap. But for the drummer that plays them, he wants volume and is most concerned with appearance. But really, they don't sound good. I am going for warmth and overall tone, not projection and "Crack". If I wanted crack (which is usually what you want for your snare), I would go for a steel shell snare, maybe something like brass or stainless steel. Does that silence the critics? I have my reasons, trust me, I have done the research. I know it's difficult, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Any takers?

[Jim Becker]

Folks...I am thinking that this thread has pretty much run it's course. If anyone has something helpful to add, please do so, but let's keep things civil and to the point.

David has his reasons for wanting to build drums in a specific way. If we can help...great. If not...that's ok, too.

Jim
SMC Moderator

[Andy Hoyt]

Thanks, Jim. I would like to add another element to this debate, however.

I find it intriguing that no one has yet brought up the question of the orientation of these cylinders. Is it to be turned as centerwork or facework?

Both have their advantages and disadvantages during the turning and curing processes for certain; but will that orientation affect the tone David is after?

And how will that orientation perform over the long haul when it's destined to be torqued up with those binder thingamabobs and then get wailed on intentionally?

[Andy Hoyt]

I just had to post something here.....100 responses....is that a record for SMC??

Not even close :D (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20&daysprune=-1&order=desc&sort=replycount)

[Steven Wilson]

Andy, center work. Can you say big hollow spindle? Tooling for ride toms and snares is readily available. Floor tom's and the bass drum present some issues. The forces involved in having a coring tool hung 2 1/2' off of a tool post should give people pause even if you have a pattern makers lathe. I would want to custom make a coring tool with 1 3/4" tool steel at least. Having a catch that far off center with a coring tool would be an interesting experience. I'm also not a fan of screws into end grain for attaching the blank to a face plate. Everything else should be fairly reasonable to perform with some easily built fixtures.

[David Loewen]

So, OK then, what can you see as an initial tooling set-up cost?

[David Loewen]

And I did see the video. They showed you how to do a "Steambent" shell and ply shell, although they didn't talk about how you would go about doing a solid shell, I can't help but think the process isn't as difficult as doing a steambent. Am I way off? They used a lot of equipment just for one steambent shell, now that would be quite the set-up cost.

So Steve, do I sense some confidence in the endeavor (if so, what can you imagine a set-up cost for the tooling being?), or are you just passing a thought on to the rest?

[Chris Barton]

Contribution from theoretical interest only: I would think that the easiest way to make what you want is to bore the blank using what ever method is most readily available and then place the cored blank between centers using a homemade mandrel. Essentially, this is nothing more than making a big pen barrel. Two wedge (cone) shaped end pieces between centers would hold the blank in place while you finish turn the outside. The biggest challenge would be coring the blank and at least for smaller units wouldn't be that big a deal.

[Kim Ford]

I don’t think the how is that difficult:

Wet Tubes from the blank or log:

Between centers mount the log or blank and bring to round. Needs to be at least 4” longer than the finish piece.

Set two steady rests on the round each about 9” in from each end. (You need two steady rests that could handle 24” diameter stock)
With a compound and a boring bar come in from the tail and core off a 2” piece. You would need a 30”- 36” boring bar and with my lathe you could move about 9” before you had to re-set the tool. So three or four sets total.
The steady rests are holding the outside of the tube and when you cut through the round remains between centers with the outside held by the rests.
Remove the first tube and proceed to core off tubes as stock permits.
Finish

With a “through center chuck” or “mandrel”, center and mount the tube. It would need to have independent jaws, similar to a steady rest in reverse. (Design and making the mandrel would be a R& D cost).

Okay the tube is now centered and is held from the inside. With a jig mounted on the bed ways run the router from head to tail and finish the outside dimension. RPM here is very slow - 50 or less.
Set the steady rest on the finish surface on the outside similar to # 2 above.
Remove the mandrel # 1. A second mandrel is required. This is nothing more that a between center rod with a dog that will fit on the headstock side and connect to the outside of the tube, (remember you have 4” of excess stock).
With a second jig mounted on the bed ways run the router from head to tail and finish the inside dimension. RPM here is very slow 50 or less.
Machine the two ends to exact standards with the router and depending on how you set the jig you could machine in reinforcing bands as necessary.
You need to have the equipment, the ability to create some special tools and inclination to want to do this.


How big is the market and how long will it take to recover the R& D is the first question.
All this assumes that you can get stock that is acceptable and then stabilize it so you can get a finished product to David without cracking or warping.
And then David builds the drum and three months later it splits in two or goes out of round because it is wood, (a natural product). What is the customer going to do?

Lots of fun to look at the problem. Tough to walk away from because it would be quite an accomplishment to do. But not really practical unless you were really in the custom wood business.

[Jim Becker]

CEssentially, this is nothing more than making a big pen barrel.

With the difference that you don't have the brass tube to support the workpiece and if you look at the original graphics, the interior of the shell, while primarily flat and even thickness, has a profile near the rim to accommodate the additional hardware (hoop, etc.) that makes a drum a drum. The mandrel idea is great for the exterior, but there also needs to be a way to secure the piece on the spindle to take care of those details.

[Jeff Bower]

Not even close :D (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20&daysprune=-1&order=desc&sort=replycount)

Not even close indeed.....wow!!

[David Loewen]

Actually, the extra "thickness" at either end of the cylinder is not necessarily for the hardware at all, it is essentially a stabilization ring. I don't have to have this if the shell is strong enough. I don't actually like what, reinforcement rings (re-re rings), do - they add overtones to the drums which I am not a fan of. So the long and short of it is that I can easily do without. Just the cylinders is fine by me. How much R & D cost for the set-up you are talking about Kim?

Here is a tid-bit from Peter Bloch, a lampshare turner. I can't remember who directed me there, and I haven't heard back from Peter yet, but here is what he has to say (in his q&a section) - which makes me wonder why shrinking/warping needs to be such a fear:


But I thought that wood cracks when it dries out!
That is what most people (including most woodworkers) assume. And of course, drying is related to the problem. But the real reason that wood cracks is that when it dries, it is changing shape. The most common example of this is warping. Normally wood is a rigid material, so to accommodate the movement and bending, the wood forms a crack to relieve the stress that builds up. The shade are thin enough to be flexible, and wood movement is not a structural problem.

In addition, the shades are turned in a way that makes the form concentric to the annual rings of the tree. Without getting to technical in this explanation, the importance of this is that the surface of the shades do not change shape, they only change size as they shrink and expand. So no tension build up. But this is of secondary importance, since even if the shades did start to build up tension in the wood, it would be automatically accommodated by the flexibility.

[Patrick Taylor]

which makes me wonder why shrinking/warping needs to be such a fear:

I think he's referring to VERY thin shells, i.e. translucent. I assume that your shells would need to be a bit thicker to withstand the rigors. Cracking can be reduced by going VERY thin to allow it to warp as it pleases, but that's probably thinner than what you're looking for. You can confirm the thicknesses with Peter when you talk to him.

[Loy Hawes]

Yeah, no kidding, but I just did a torrent search and didn't find the file, where can I nab it from?


P.M. has been sent

[Raymond Overman]

I spoke with Anatoly Tsiris last night at our woodturner's club meeting about this problem. He turns large hollow vessels out of solid logs. His pieces are generally 24" or more in diameter and 30" or more tall. He uses a faceplate with screws into end grain and a 10' long boring bar weighing in at over 135# with an 1 1/4" hardened bit which he regularly hangs 2 1/2 feet off his custom Nichols lathe tool rest and hollows the vessels through a 3" or 4" hole in the top. The size of these pieces wouldn't be a problem with his set up (which is impressive).

What would be a problem is the tolerances, the precision, and the quality of wood that would be required to make this project work. His work is amazing, but it isn't picture perfect because of the stresses that have to be accounted for in the tree after it's cut down and turned. Anatoly regularly gets cracks and fills them and there are always those unforeseen knots that would ruin the perfection that a great drummer is looking for, but are perfectly acceptable (and sought after) for his work. His market already supports thousands of dollars for a single piece. Is your price point on the product your wanting to produce going to be able to support the time and materials lost for all the materials problems? Being that the Aussie outfit (Spirit Drums (http://www.spiritdrums.com/snare/beat.html)) can sell a full kit for less than what he makes on a single piece, I don't think subbing out the work to a turner that is invested in making these large pieces will be the answer.

Your audience here is a group of craftsmen and artists that are primarily looking to do their own thing with a few professional, architectural, and production turners thrown in the mix. What you have to do is find a drummer first and a woodturner second, who invests in making it from start to finish just as a luthier invests his time in the whole craft. I think a do it yourself attitude will get the quality and quantity of items you are looking for.

No offense David but Anatoly laughed when I made the suggestion of doing these as a turner. My opinion is that his interests lie in the art of what he does over being a manufacturer of objects. Of course, everything here is my thoughts on the matter and I don't speak for Anatoly.

As an aside, if you're in Charlotte and have a few minutes, Anatoly is doing a residency at the McColl Center (http://www.mccollcenter.org/site/nav.cfm?cat=14&subcat=90&subsub=0&CFID=3128130&CFTOKEN=4d125613c99d6e86-54925071-8A14-0C97-285DF776914D30FE) this year. Stop by and tell him I sent you. He's a really nice guy and has a lot of talent and loves to talk about his work and process. The hour that I spent in his shop a while back taught me a lot about what is possible.

[Brian Weick]

Andy,
That is exactly what I have been saying - It can be done but as you stated there are the "effects of time and drying" that will definitely pose a problem. After doing some minor research into drum shell making, there are not more than a hand full of companies that are dong this type of drum shell manufacturing and some of those have closed up shop. I would just hate to see David get all charged up about something that may not be all it's "cracked" up to be. If he believes there is a definite calling for these ~ than I can see why he is looking into this ~ but they will have to have some pretty deep pockets! I would be more than happy to help David but the time and cost may be to high. I can understand the type of sound he is trying to get ~ I was a musician, part time , and do agree with him on the different tones you can get from how an instrument is made ~ I really can! I have been keeping my eye open for some logs as we had a huge ice storm here ,October of last year that made the headlines all over the country- there are the remnants and results from that storm that are going to the curb, ie - people cutting down damaged trees and the like - so I am sure I will find them. For my own experience I will turn a set out for him and see what the final outcome is.
The problem I see is the cracking-absolutely. It may be good on the final turn , but after a few weeks - what will be the verdict? My only thought is keeping it wet , but then I was thinking this works well to form/bend wood to a desired shape, bending the wood grain vertically, but it is not being bent- it is only being turned.
I had a frieze capital that I had to make over a very large eye shaped shower unit.I hand carved a vine & leaf (depression carve) into the frieze plate from one end to the other. the diameter of the plate (maple) was 1/2" thick 4" in height and 5' long and it had to curve elliptically to an eye lid shape for the top , I soaked it in extremely hot water for 20 min , pulled it out, and clamped it to my form, I let it dry for 24 hrs, the next day I took it of the form and the shape was permanent and there were no problems to be had. I did my sanding and the finish work on it and it came out exactly as I had expected, better than I anticipated.
But we are talking about not reshaping by water, steam and bending - rather shaping through turning. The grain on that frieze plate was bent parallel with the grain of the wood , my point is , had I shaped that plate ( if I could ever find a piece that large) with the grain vertical (perpendicular) 1st it would have not held it's shape ` grain in the wrong direction, 2nd- it would have bent a lot easier but the possibility of having a grain separation (crack) is almost 100% . 3rd ~ it may have broken when I tried to bend it to begin with seeing as all those grains turned into possible separating dividers.
Am I wrong , if the wood is wet (live) when it is being turned the wood shrinks from drying and hence ~ minor stress cracks, and possibly a blow out. Would it not depend on the species being turned- something with a very tight grain structure so cracking would not be such a high probability?
Brian

[Wilbur Pan]

Do you really need a lathe for this project? Another way I could envision to get a solid wood drum shell would be to cut the log roughly down to size, let it dry, then use various chisels and scrapers to get the thickness you need. A shop built set of calipers could be used to ensure constant thickness.

This process would be more labor intensive, but it avoids many of the issues with trying to turn a piece that size, and your end result is the same. In fact, you might be able to come up with the drum maker's equivalent of a luthier's "tap tuning" the soundboard of a guitar with this method, which could command a price premium.

[Kurt Whitley]

First a disclaimer: I have not read this thread in it's entirety, so apologies if I am repeating what has already been discussed.

I wonder why a shell couldn't be final turned green (or at least get close to final turned) and then set into a jig to maintain the circularity?
I know the hat turners use jigs to shape of their turnings as they dry with a pretty good success rate and it seems like they are putting more bend into their projects than maintaining the wet circularity would require.

What am I missing?

Cheers,
Kurt

[Jim Boggs]

is david still reading thread, sent e-mail but no response. am drummer who understands perfectly what david is after,though am a complete ameteur(spelling?) at turning would be willing to take a shot at it without any investment except raw wood material as i would like to see these available commercially also. am ready to purchase large putnam pattern makers for this express purpose, would be lot easier decision if i knew someone would team up with me. again i would assume all tooling costs for a take in retailing end product.

[Brian Weick]

Jim,
I think that David has either lost interest or he has found someone to do his fabrication- not really sure- this thread has been quite over the past couple of weeks. I was going to turn them for him on my Oliver 20C pattern lathe but something must have happened. What are the specifications of the Putnam you are considering purchasing-C-C, bed length, swing, etc,etc,?
Brian

[David Loewen]

I have not lost interest, nor have I found anyone who has committed 100% to the shell fabrication. Please PM me if you are interested at redgnarly@gmail.com.

Peace

[Craig Carpenter]

No way to tell exactly what this would cost. One could spend hours and hours, day after day trying to get just one peice right. It would definitelty have to be done in a temperature controled environment. Are there not custom drum manufacturers to order something like this from?

[David Loewen]

Craig, please read the post, this issue has been covered.

[Brian Weick]

My headstock is complete now! I picked it up today and I am elated with the precision on the machining! I will start your drum with pictures posted on this thread . I have the opportunity to get a harder- more dense section of a wood rather than sugar maple, I am going to spin a cherry for starters. I am not confident with the grain structure of sugar maple so I thought this is a dense wood and will turn with no problem~ form before function. I have your design for the lip on the ends of the heads, that will be done as well but I know that we an do so much more as far as the outside appearance of the drum is concerned, a fluted design or I can do a rope twist which would be a very, very, eye appealing piece of musical candy, I would like to spin one and you tell me what you think as far as the sound.
This first drum- the largest, will be as you specified. I will discuss the financial part after I get a successful, quality, unique, and enticing piece of craftsmanship in custom drum making from a solid piece of wood that can be made with no flaws,no defects and a one of a kind drum. If you are still out there- e-mail me if you are still pursuing this matter. :)
regards,
Brian

[David Warkentin]

Just wondering if it ever happened. David

[Philip Duffy]

I don't have the sugar maple here in VA but would think that many of us are more than capable of doing the pieces requested. The form is a hollow form with the ends cut off. Turn it and leave the tendon on; boil it, dry for 3 weeks, turn it to final form; cut off the end with the tendon and its done!! The size and depth of the drum form is not so great and the wall thickness is 1/2 in. That is pretty reasonable to an experienced turner of hollow forms. - - -wish I had some sugar maple. Don't make the project harder than it is! Phil