what are the pros and cons of japonese saws?

[Jeffrey Larsen]

New and mighty green--Am sure this has been a big topic of discussion obviously. However, I am wondering, what the pros and cons are of these saws and and what their limitations are.

This is a hobby for me and I intend to do a lot of dovetails, box joints, other joints, and the other things that would be involved with building furiture or clock cases as a hobby.

I am very impressed by these saws, but them I am impressed with about everything at this point(:eek: ), so need some reality checks. Where is the best place to buy quality economical saws and the jigs that might go with them (japonese that is).

Thanks! Jeff

[Mike Henderson]

To me, the biggest advantage of Japanese saws is that you don't have to sharpen them - when they get dull or damaged, you just buy a new blade. There's so much to learn for someone just beginning that I think starting with Japanese saws is a good idea.

Mike

[Robert Rozaieski]

Keep in mind that the Japanese craftsmen work differently than we do in the West. They do their work on low trestles or "sawhorses" (for lack of a better word), holding their work with their knees/feet and pulling upward as they saw (Japanese saws cut on the pull stroke). As such, their tools are designed to be optimized for this type of working. That does not mean that you cannot use a japanese saw on a high Western workbench, many people here do very successfully. However, in my personal experience, I don't like them. I have never been able to get used to the pull stroke and I don't like the feel of the straight handle which is not very ergonomic for sawing at a high Western style workbench. This type of handle is better suited for a two handed grip sawing (pulling) upward while standing or kneeling over the work. I am not comfortable working this way and prefer the feel of a Western saw while standing at my workbench.

Another thing to note is that Japanese saws also have harder teeth which is why you don't sharpen many of them and you just replace the blade as Mike noted. Some Japanese saws can be sharpened, however, not typically by the home woodworker due to the very complicated tooth geometry. In addition, the harder teeth make them more brittle and susceptible to tooth breakage, which really isn't a problem with western saws. Western saws also can be sharpened and maintained by any home woodworker willing to spend a little time to learn to file and set the teeth (really not that hard to do).

I suggest you try both a quality Japanese saw and a quality Western saw for yourself. That's the real way to find out what is best for you. Also, don't compare a cheap western saw to a quality Japanese saw or a cheap Japanese saw to a quality Western saw. The quality saw will always perform better, regardless of the style. Try to find a fellow woodworker in your area who owns a good saw and try before you buy if you can. If not, all reputable tool merchants will let you return the saw you don't like (or you can keep both :D ). Personally, I prefer old Western saws for their feel and because I can sharpen and maintain them myself. They are also typically much less expensive that a premium Western or Japanese saw and they work just fine for me.

[David Weaver]

I guess you have to try one of each. I'm a novice, and I have both types.

I much prefer the japanese saws for detail work - you can sort of just guide them where you want them to go, the kerf is super thin (one of my dovetail saws is 0.012 and 22 teeth per inch), and they cut like mad because of the thin kerf.

It's all a matter of opinion, I guess - I just like the japanese saws a lot better.

The teeth are definitely much harder on them, too - at some point you have to buy a new blade, but in the 6 months or so that I've been using mine, I haven't noticed it getting duller (maybe that's because I only use it for detail work, but it's still extremely sharp and fast cutting).

The detail saw that I have is just a standard dozuki that you can get from rockler for about $40, and I got a "trash saw" that I use to cut anything else - another dozuki that has fewer teeth per inch and a wider kerf.

I think you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't at least try one.

[Don Bullock]

Robert and Mike both have great ideas. I'd like to add that for me sawing on the pull stroke is much easier than on the push stroke, but I'm not exactly sure why. I've have noticed that when I use the Japanese saw I have a better view of what the saw is doing on each stroke, especially in regards to tear out. For me Japanese saws also make it easier for me to stay on my line. Like Robert said, however, try out both on the type of work you are planning to do. If you're already highly experienced using a Western saw, which doesn't seem to be the case here, changing from the Western saw may seem very strange at first, so give yourself some time with the Japanese saw.

[Wilbur Pan]

I find Japanese saws very easy to use. I think this is at least partly because I didn't really have any experience with sawing when I started and so I didn't have to unlearn any western-style saw techniques to use a Japanese saw. (As opposed to when I tried to learn snowboarding after skiing for most of my life -- that was a disaster. :mad: ) Since you say you are at the beginning stages, this shouldn't be a problem for you.

I would stick with the disposable blade Japanese saws. Some very excellent Japanese woodworkers who have access to very expensive hand made Japanese saws still opt for the disposable blade models. These are the same guys who will lay out $4-500 for a Japanese hand plane, and $100 for a single Japanese chisel, so you know they don't mind spending a lot on hand tools.

You don't need a jig. Seriously.

A good place for Japanese saws is hidatool.com or japanwoodworker.com. Look for the Gyokucho models. A good starting point would be a dozuki (http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/saws/gcross.html) (dovetail saw) for about $40, and a ryoba (http://www.hidatool.com/woodpage/saws/gryoba.html) (combination rip/crosscut saw) for about $30.

A common complaint about Japanese saws is that because they cut on the pull stroke, sawdust obscures the cut line, and makes it harder to see where you are cutting. I've learned not to stare at the cut line where the blade is cutting and where the sawdust is piling up. Instead, I look at the cut line at the end of the cut I'm making. Because the act of pulling creates tension which will help to keep the blade straight during the cutting action, I've learned to trust that the blade will stay straight if I concentrate on where I want the saw to ultimately end up.

Another complaint about Japanese saws is that the hardening process makes the teeth more fragile and prone to breakage. This is most likely an error of technique. You need much less effort to cut with a Japanese saw, again because it cuts on the pull stroke instead of on the push stroke.

You also need to size the saw to the piece of wood you are cutting. For Japanese saws, the tpi is pretty much standardized to the length of the saw blade. The shorter the blade, the higher the tpi. A 240 mm (9 1/2") ryoba is good for 4/4 stock, but one time I tried to use my 240 mm ryoba to cut a piece of 8/4 white oak. I got a great workout that day, but the next time I needed to make a cut like that I bought a longer (fewer tpi) saw.

[Dan Clark]

I much prefer Japanese saws. I started with a bunch of traditional push saws. They worked OK, but I usually pulled out a power tool so as not to use them.

On a whim I bought a small Japanese "Razorsaw". A couple of weeks later, I needed to cut off a 2X4. Since it was just one cut, I pulled out my traditional cross cut saw. Same hassle as normal. For grins, I tried the little Razorsaw (It's only about 8" long.) WHOA! BIG difference! It cut through that 2X like butter. Frankly I was blown away!

Then I want back and bought a Ryoba and a Dozuki. Now I'm up to 5 incuding a nice little keyhole saw.

I still use my power tools for bulk stuff, but for fine cuts or for one offs, it's much easier to whip out my Japanese saws.

One thing to remember is that pull saw blades are much thinner than push saw blades. So your kerf will be narrower with a pull saw.

The key is to try both. In less expensive saws, I think you'll prefer the Japanese pull saws. If you spend some bucks, you can get a fine saw in either style.

Regards,

Dan.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Jeff, here are a few things to add to the great advice given already. I use both and I, like you, started with minimal prior experience with western saws. Lately I have started gravitating towards the western saws, mainly due to ergonomics, as I just can't seem to get used to the straight grip.

Advantages:
1. Thin kerf: Due to the pull stroke the blades can be (and are) made much thinner than western saws. The set is also minimal resulting in a thin kerf.
2. Cuts on the pull stroke: This combined with the thin blade makes sure that once you get the cut started on the correct path the saw will take care of staying on that line.
3. Due to finer teeth and very little set the cut surface is highly smooth, specially on the exit side. This can be a consideration on woods prone to tearout and joints that are exposed on both sides.

Disadvantages:
1. The grip: is not very ergonomic and not really designed for work held at eye or shoulder level (which is what I do for dovetails and other joinery).
2. The accuracy depends greatly on how you get the cut started. If you start at the wrong line or angle it can't be compensated by twisting the blade as you can on a western saw. Then again if you have to adjust the line/angle in the middle of a cut the result will neve be good for the fine results expected in joinery.
3. Due to the higher TPI it cuts slower than western saws. I have found this to be a problem personally. For example if I am cutting dovetails, I have noticed that due to the longer time required to make each cut I start getting tired/bored as I progress further down the board and the quality of the cuts starts to suffer progressively. This is one of the two primary reasons why I am moving towards western saws.

I think the most important advice given is for you to buy one of each and try it out on your own. You can buy a decent disposable dozuki at Harbor Freight for $18, or about the same price range from Home depot (I can't recall the brand name but the handles are blue, you can't miss it). With western saws having them properly sharpened and set makes a huge difference, so make sure you get a western saws which is ready when comparing it to a Japanese.

[Bruce Volden]

Also, I can attest to the fact that when starting your cut with a "pull stroke" one needs to keep the fingers out of the way of the saw blade~~~they ARE very sharp!:D DAMHIKT. Oh, never mind, someone already mentioned the two hands on the handle ;) .

Bruce

[Terry Bigelow]

Not to hijack this thread but...I just recently re-handled a Disston #7 and was very happy with the results. Being that it was the first time I attempted it I was somewhat suprised with the results(pretty good). This got me thinking. I have quite a few Disston back saws which I enjoy but I also have a Japanese dozuki that I often turn to. My only issue(and I mean ONLY) with the dozuki is the handle. I have gotten somewhat used to it, however my Disstons are much more comfortable to use(for me-just an opinion). I have rehandled many a tool in my shop with both sockets and tangs and now a saw, why not put a "western" style Disston handle on the dozuki? I'm sure I'm not the first to think about it but I was wondering if anyone else has actually done it. If so, how did it turn out and of course...any pics?

[David DeCristoforo]

Japanese saws are made from extremely hard steel. This is what enables them to remain sharp for so long. But that also means that the teeth are very brittle and can easily be broken. So, the advice to start out with less expensive saws with replaceable blades is solid. But....these also tend to be of much lower quality than the traditional "fixed blade" saws and will not provide much more than a "rudimentary" intorduction to the subtleties of Japanese saws.

[Wilbur Pan]

The advice to start out with less expensive saws with replaceable blades is solid. But....these also tend to be of much lower quality than the traditional "fixed blade" saws and will not provide much more than a "rudimentary" intorduction to the subtleties of Japanese saws.

Not according to experienced Japanese woodworkers like Makoto Imai. As I noted above, he fits into the category of Japanese woodworkers that can (and do) get whatever tool they want, and he uses disposable blade Gyokuchos.

You can take a look at these pictures of a recent demonstration (http://www.daikudojo.org/Archive/20070414_tfgwc_asilomar_makoto_imai_demo/) he did in April. Take a look at photos 9-12.

And regarding the hardness/brittleness of the saw teeth, breakage of Japanese saw teeth can almost always be traced to either using too much force when pulling on the blade or using a saw that is too short (and therefore has too fine a tpi) for the piece of wood you're cutting. Unlike western saws, there is very little downward force needed when cutting with a Japanese saw. Applying such force will result in teeth breakage.

[David DeCristoforo]

Well, I know Makoto Imai and I completely agree on your point. However, I would be somewhat surprised if he would not agree that a fine saw handmade by a "famous" smith would not be superior to throwaway blades. I bought some natural water stones from him once and he was totally stressed out over whether or not I had enough experience to be able to use and care for these stones properly. Imai has some fine saws in addition to his Gyokuchos. I also am the proud owner of several fine hand forged Japanese blades and I can assure you they are quite superior in every respect.

As to your comment that "...breakage of Japanese saw teeth can almost always be traced to either using too much force when pulling on the blade...", this is very true. However, it can take a while for one to get the hang of using these saws correctly and, in the mean time, one can break a lot of blades!

[Manny Hernandez]

I agree with David. I do not think Makoto's message was that the replaceble blade saws are as good or even as enjoyable as a nice handmade one. He said that he enjoys using a good handmade saw but that he uses the replaceable blades saws because he doesn't have to spend time sharpening them. For him time is money. It sounded like he was willing to give up some things for the convenience of just replacing the blade when it becomes dull. Also, his skill level is such that he can make the Gyokucho do whatever he wants.

Manny

[Mike Henderson]

Japanese saws are made from extremely hard steel. This is what enables them to remain sharp for so long. But that also means that the teeth are very brittle and can easily be broken. So, the advice to start out with less expensive saws with replaceable blades is solid. But....these also tend to be of much lower quality than the traditional "fixed blade" saws and will not provide much more than a "rudimentary" intorduction to the subtleties of Japanese saws.
I don't have any experience with Japanese saws that can be sharpened, but on the throwaway blades only the teeth are hardened (they're induction heated and air quenched) - the body of the saw is not hardened and is quite flexible. That's probably the main reason you can't sharpen a "throw-away" Japanese saw blade - the teeth are too hard to file, and if you could file them, you'd quickly get into the soft steel.

I would imagine that the body of a Japanese saw that's designed to be sharpened is hardened about the same as the body of a Western saw.

Mike

[Wiley Horne]

Hello Jeffrey,

Caution: opinions follow. Here IMO are some pitfalls to avoid in making your initial purchases of Japanese saws. And I agree with the others, that machine-made, induction-hardened teeth is where you want to start.

1. Dozukis. There is a fair amount of advertising that wants to sell you a crosscut dozuki for all joinery work. These dozukis will have 25 to 30 tpi. They will be advertised as good for crosscuts, miters, tenons, dovetails--for all joinery work. Caution: If you're looking at a 25-30tpi saw, it's good for shallow crosscuts. You will want a different saw for dovetails and tenon cheeks--which are ripping operations. So, for sawing joinery, you will want two back saws, one crosscut and one rip. Sometimes these will be called crosscut dozukis and rip dozukis.

2. Size of saw. It's not difficult in the marketplace, to do a whole bunch of studying, and end up trying to saw an 8/4 board with a 210mm saw. Because the most glowing writeups are frequently about the finest-toothed saws. So you think 'yes! that's what I need!'. Harry Strasil has this great quote that goes something like 'Experience is a cruel teacher--you get the experience first, then the lesson.' That's what you'll feel like when you snap your 210mm saw in two as it buckles on the return stroke in a 5/4 or 8/4 maple board, or a green 2X__ from the Borg. When you are ready to buy saws, write down what you want to do with them, and post back for specific recommendations. It'll save you some money and heartache. You'll need different sets of saws for joinery, than for basic dimensioning of lumber.

3. Ryobas. Ryobas are very useful utility saws. However, if you're making long-distance cuts, where the saw will be completely buried in the lumber, consider a single-edge saw which is tapered in the thickness (from teeth to back).

4. Sawing. Something that you will frequently hear from tradesmen--'let the tool do the work'. You'll hear it about hammering nails for example. But nowhere is this more true than in sawing with Japanese saws. You can push a western back saw or hand saw in the cut, exert downward pressure, and it will track if you're good. Not the best technique, but you can survive. But if you crowd a Japanese saw, exert downward pressure on a thin-bladed saw, it will get off line 10 times out of 10. Because the blade will flex just a little in the kerf, and the teeth (which are very sharp) will begin looking for the path of least resistance, and will start heading for where the blade flex is telling them to go, not where you're wanting them to go. Moral: Don't get a death grip on the saw. Use a fairly relaxed grip, unclench your jaw, take a deep breath and let the saw fall through the work. It'll track straighter.

Wiley......lots of opinions on this subject

[Ed Falis]

... why not put a "western" style Disston handle on the dozuki? I'm sure I'm not the first to think about it but I was wondering if anyone else has actually done it. If so, how did it turn out and of course...any pics?

We picked up a saw done exactly this way on closeout from Lee Valley a couple of years ago - looks like a western hand saw, but with a Japanese tooth pattern. It was called a Timber Wolf and cost $12. We love it, and wish we had bought a couple more. It's a real go-to saw for utility work.

[Terry Bigelow]

Thanks for the reply, Ed. I knew I couldn't possibly be alone on this one! I'm determined to give it a shot. I've got an old $30 dozuki that is in good enough shape but not too good that I'd be worried about screwing up. I've got a handle pattern picked out and some wood as well so I'll be sure to post pics when I finish.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thanks for the reply, Ed. I knew I couldn't possibly be alone on this one! I'm determined to give it a shot. I've got an old $30 dozuki that is in good enough shape but not too good that I'd be worried about screwing up. I've got a handle pattern picked out and some wood as well so I'll be sure to post pics when I finish.

Terry, you may want to be careful doing this. I have a similar saw from Stanley that is sold by the BORG that I use for 2x construction grade stuff, PVC, etc. It has a western style handle but Japanese pattern teeth. It does cut very fast and very smooth but it is not a Japanese style saw even though the teeth are cut that way.

The thing to keep in mind is that the teeth are Japanese pattern however, this saw is not a Japanese saw like your dozuki. What I mean is that it cuts on the push stroke like a Western saw, not on the pull stroke like your dozuki (I'm assuming that the saw Ed is referring to also cuts on the push stroke, but I could be wrong). In order to do this, the blade is very thick and stiff, again not like a real Japanese saw like your dozuki. As long as you keep your dozuki cutting on the pull you should be fine, just dont make the mistake of flipping that blade around or you'll kink or break the dozuki in a heartbeat.

[Ed Falis]

Robert is right. I checked it. It's a Lenox Lumberwolf, has a Japanese tooth pattern, a thick western style body, and is set up to cut on the push.

- Ed

[James Carmichael]

Robert is right. I checked it. It's a Lenox Lumberwolf, has a Japanese tooth pattern, a thick western style body, and is set up to cut on the push.

- Ed

I happen to have a Lumberwolf I bought when Lee Valley closed them out. It's OK, I guess. I find it a pain to get started.

I much prefer my old disstons or my goto saw, a Tashiro Zeta.

If looking for replaceable blade Japanese saws, check out Tashiro Hardware.

[Terry Bigelow]

Terry, you may want to be careful doing this. I have a similar saw from Stanley that is sold by the BORG that I use for 2x construction grade stuff, PVC, etc. It has a western style handle but Japanese pattern teeth. It does cut very fast and very smooth but it is not a Japanese style saw even though the teeth are cut that way.

The thing to keep in mind is that the teeth are Japanese pattern however, this saw is not a Japanese saw like your dozuki. What I mean is that it cuts on the push stroke like a Western saw, not on the pull stroke like your dozuki (I'm assuming that the saw Ed is referring to also cuts on the push stroke, but I could be wrong). In order to do this, the blade is very thick and stiff, again not like a real Japanese saw like your dozuki. As long as you keep your dozuki cutting on the pull you should be fine, just dont make the mistake of flipping that blade around or you'll kink or break the dozuki in a heartbeat.
Thanks Robert but what I have is a dozuki. I have used it for about two years. It's not a borg product, it was from Lee Valley and has the traditional japanese set up: pull stroke cut, thin kerf, and the long handle. I intend to make no changes with the blade nor it's direction nor use. I intend ONLY to put a western style Disston pattern handle on it and use it as I have for the past two years.

[glenn bradley]

FWW Dozuki review:

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=27682

[Ed Falis]

I happen to have a Lumberwolf I bought when Lee Valley closed them out. It's OK, I guess. I find it a pain to get started.

I much prefer my old disstons or my goto saw, a Tashiro Zeta.

If looking for replaceable blade Japanese saws, check out Tashiro Hardware.

Guess I'm going to need to check out that Tashiro Zeta. Thanks for the tip.

[Ed Falis]

Their website isn't up at the moment. Hope they haven't gone out of business.

[James Carmichael]

Looks fine to me:

http://www.tashirohardware.com/

[Ed Falis]

Must have been a temporary glitch - I can get there now. Thanks for checking.