First Rails & Stiles for Glass Insert

[Dennis Putnam]

After looking around I am a little fuzzy on the proper way to cut rails and stiles for a glass insert (very little on making them) as opposed to panels (lots on making them). I've read suggestions to simply remove the strip between the panel groove and the back of the rails and stiles. It seems to me that would make the rabbet too deep, would it not? Wouldn't I want a depth of only slightly more then the glass thickness, like 1/4"?

Another suggestion is to remove the groove cutter from the router bit and use a dado to cut the rabbet.

In both cases how would that effect the fit and strength of the door? With the groove gone doesn't that mean the rails and stiles will not lock and create a potential problem of sliding around to form a step and misaligned rabbet during the glue up?

Thanks.

[Nancy Laird]

We do lots of rail-and-stile doors for glass insert, as well as 1/4" ply and melamine. Just use a biscuit joiner to join the rails and stiles, glue and clamp to square, then use your router to route the rabbet in the back and square up the corners with a chisel. Easy as pie.

Nancy

[Charles McCracken]

Dennis,

This is arguably the easiest way to make glass panel doors:

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XiWhvhL2L._SS500_.jpg

These make the profile, rabbet for glass, groove for glass retaining bead and tenon to fit the groove. Item is 99-286.

[Dennis Putnam]

Thanks for both suggestions. All I need are the right tools. Its tough on the wallet being a newbie and I don't just mean making unintentional scrap. :)

[Mike Cutler]

Dennis.

First determine how easy you want them to be repairable in the event of the glass being broken.
I've done a few stained glass door panel inserts, and favor Nancy's method, with the exception of the biscuit. I was making full sized doors though, much more weight involved.

If easy repair is not an issue, the Freud bit Charles posted looks nice, I might get one myself. It appears that a change in the bearing , or shims would allow you to adjust for glass thickness easy enough.

Be sure to leave a little space around the glass for expansion/contraction.

[Charles McCracken]

Mike,

The bits I posted can not be adjusted for glass thickness. They are set for 1/8" only. We offer two other ways of making glass cabinet doors that could accept other thicknesses:

The 99-280 series recoverable bead:

http://www.freudtools.com/woodworkers/rep/router_bits/Router_Bits/Cabinet_Door/346_RECBEADGLASS_A.jpg
http://www.freudtools.com/woodworkers/rep/router_bits/Router_Bits/Cabinet_Door/346_RECBEADGLASS_D.gif

and the 99-270 for divided lite doors:

http://www.freudtools.com/woodworkers/rep/router_bits/Router_Bits/Cabinet_Door/341_DIVLITECABDOOR_A.jpg

[Nancy Laird]

I've done a few stained glass door panel inserts, and favor Nancy's method, with the exception of the biscuit. I was making full sized doors though, much more weight involved.

Mike, just out of curiosity, why do you not use biscuits to assemble the doors? Face-frame biscuits are just the right size for assembling rails and stiles, show nothing on the door surface, and take less time than dowels. LOML has been assembling doors in this fashion for 14 years and we haven't had one fail yet. Sure don't want to use pocket screws--they show on the back side.:(


Be sure to leave a little space around the glass for expansion/contraction.

Yep. We had one piece of glass crack when the door dried out a bit and shrunk. :eek: Learned a lesson.

Nancy

[Ed Falis]

While we're on the subject, how wide do folks suggest making the rails and stiles?

- Ed

[Dennis Putnam]

It depends partly on the type of hinges you will use and the overlap (if you are using overlap doors). I am planning to use 2" for mine (I think most are 2" to 2 1/4"). I need to expose the maximum area of my opening.

However, based on the responses to this thread, I'm not sure what I'm going to do now. I currently don't have the funds to buy another set of router bits or a biscuit slot cutter (it is on my list but there are too many tools higher). I'll probably have to figure something out with the router bits I already have. I probably will wind up cutting the strip below the groove but leave it at the ends where the rails fit. The rabbet will likely be too deep but I think that is the best I can do.

[Charles McCracken]

When you say the rabbet will be too deep, do you mean from the back surface of the door toward the front or do you mean from the edge of the profile toward the outside edge of the frame? If you mean from back to front you can make a bead strip of matching wood and attach it as a glass retainer for a finished look (similar to the effect with the 99-280 series bits I showed earlier).

[Mike Cutler]

Mike, just out of curiosity, why do you not use biscuits to assemble the doors? Face-frame biscuits are just the right size for assembling rails and stiles, show nothing on the door surface, and take less time than dowels. LOML has been assembling doors in this fashion for 14 years and we haven't had one fail yet. Sure don't want to use pocket screws--they show on the back side.:(



Yep. We had one piece of glass crack when the door dried out a bit and shrunk. :eek: Learned a lesson.

Nancy

Nancy.

I wasn't clear enough. These are interior house doors, full sized, 32" by 78" . One made of 8/4 Jatoba, The other out of 8/4 poplar ,with large antique stained glass panels. The construction was all M&T's with a rabbet ledge for the stained glass panels. In both cases the stained glass panels can be removed in about 5 minutes for periodic cleaning, or sent out for repair if necessary.
It looks like I'll be doing a few more in the near future, along with some "privacy" , framed,stained glass panels. These are set over a standard window, but allow the "customer" to take the stained glass panel with them. I'm working on a frame design right now that is a replica/adaption of a mirror done by John Hall, that appears in Darrel Peart's book. Much larger though. A lot of trial and error too.


Charles.
Thanks for the clarification, and redirect to the correct product.

Dennis.

Don't get defeated by the lack of tools, or equipment. The biscuit is really just an economical, convenient floating tenon (without the same shear strength though, but fine in a singular plane application like this). Rails and stiles can be joined with traditional M&T joinery, floating tenons, ship lapped, or a host of other joining techniques if need be. It just takes a little longer, and any router profile that you find pleasing can be adapted to the construction technique.

[Dennis Putnam]

Yes, from the back to the front (the glass pane will sit too deep). I thought about your idea and am considering it along with a different way of retaining the pane (like with 1/4 round strips). The only issue is how to secure it so that it is removable, just in case.

[Ed Falis]

Dennis,

Thanks for bringing this subject up. I'm doing kitchen cabinets, and have not fully designed how I'm going to build the doors that have glass. So this is really relevant for me.

-Ed

[Charles McCracken]

Yes, from the back to the front (the glass pane will sit too deep). I thought about your idea and am considering it along with a different way of retaining the pane (like with 1/4 round strips). The only issue is how to secure it so that it is removable, just in case.

Dennis,

The bead strip is typically attached with small finish nails (or a pin nailer if you have one). These can be driven completely through the bead to remove it.

[Bruce Benjamin]

There are a few different companies that make router bits that will do what you are asking. My favorite is Infinity because I haven't ever found a higher quality bit or blade than from them. http://www.infinitytools.com/products.asp?dept=1106 It's easy enough to use the method that Nancy listed and you don't need a special bit to do it. But then you don't have the fancy profile on the inside edge of your rails and stiles either. It just depends on what look you're going for with the finished door. With the bit linked above you'll need to use some clips to hold the glass into the rabbet. I prefer this method over the method that the Freud bits require because it's faster to build and easier to change the glass if necessary. But that's just my personal preference.

Bruce

[Steve Clardy]

I do it the simple way. I just use standard rail and stile bits.
I use 1/4" glass.
I build the door just as I do a raised panel door.
Size my glass the same, using spaceballs.
Assemble door as usual with glass installed.
Tape and paper off both sides of the glass.
Stain and finish.

When it come time to repair a possibly broken glass [which hasn't happened in 14 years that I know of, just use a utility knife and cut three of the four strips of wood out of the back of the door that the cutters leave.
Replace glass. Install with glass keys [those 3 cornered jobs] and silicone in some wood strips over those.

[Dave Griessmann]

Years ago, Glen Huey did an article on a simple way to make this type of door.

He's since improved how he does it and by the end of the month we will have out a technique DVD on how to build this door.

[Michael Weber]

Hey, why didn't I think of that :confused: . Steve, how does the cost of the 1/4 vs 1/8 glass compare? I imagine with 1/4 inch glass you can use single strength?



I do it the simple way. I just use standard rail and stile bits.
I use 1/4" glass.
I build the door just as I do a raised panel door.
Size my glass the same, using spaceballs.
Assemble door as usual with glass installed.
Tape and paper off both sides of the glass.
Stain and finish.

When it come time to repair a possibly broken glass [which hasn't happened in 14 years that I know of, just use a utility knife and cut three of the four strips of wood out of the back of the door that the cutters leave.
Replace glass. Install with glass keys [those 3 cornered jobs] and silicone in some wood strips over those.

[Steve Clardy]

Hey, why didn't I think of that :confused: . Steve, how does the cost of the 1/4 vs 1/8 glass compare? I imagine with 1/4 inch glass you can use single strength?




Cost isn't too much more for 1/4"

I'd have to dig back in my files to find cost of 1/4"
Probably different in your area.

Yes. I use all single strength standard glass

[Kenneth Ellwood]

I know this post has been out there awhile. I have the standard rail and stile bit and currently making 17" x 52" (glass size) cabinet doors for a humidified 5 guitar storage cabinet. The slot that is cut is 1/4" wide. The glass I am using is double strength 1/8" thick. I am going to be using the rubber retainer strips that require a 1/8" slot. 1/8+ 1/8 = 1/4. I am thinking I can utilize the slot for both the glass and the rubber strip. Why would that not work? Issue will be IF the glass ever breaks then it will be a pain to change.

[Steve Clardy]

I don't see a problem doing it that way Kenneth

[Robert Engel]

You can cut the rabbets by hand and finish with router plane.
Can be as simple as chopping with chisel or using a rabbet plane.