Best DC compromise for cramped hobbyist

[Randy Klein]

I'm sure this info is spread out amongst various posts, but I couldn't find a single consolidated discussion on this.

I think most would agree that a dedicated DC (oneida, clearvue, etc) is the best option for shop machinery (planers, jointers, etc). And that a shop vac is best option for hand-held power tools (sanders, routers, etc).

I've read Bill Pentz' info and it seems that huge HP's cyclone machines, vented outside is the answer for a dedicated DC. And that a mini-cyclone attachment for the shop-vac (CV06, dust deputy) is the other necessity. So in summary, cyclone good.

But what if due to size, budget, power constraints you could only choose one or the other.

What option would be the best compromise to handle chip collection and fine dust collection from all shop power tools?

Additional things to consider:
I have only 110v, 20 Amp service, so the huge HPs cyclones are not an option.
Although Oneida (http://www.oneida-air.com/products/systems/1_5hp/1.5_component.htm) seems to have a 110V cyclone available
I would like to keep it mobile and move it from machine-to-machine with a short flexible hose. I assume this should be a positive since it allows higher suctions vs ducting. I move every few years and don't want to re-duct every new garage.Options:
110v cyclone DC, like the Oneida.
Are there any others?
Is this even mobile?
Is this enough power, assuming the short flexible hose, to get the fine dust that is so hazardous, even when using sanders?
Will it be able to handle the small power tools that normally require a shop-vac suction?
1.5 HP non-cyclone DC, like the Delta 50-760 (has a 1-micron bag), with a cyclone attachment (such as the Veritas Cyclone lid) (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=30282&cat=1,42401&ap=1) on a 55-gal drum (so I don't have to empty so much while planing).
This particular lid has options for 4" or 2-1/2" ports
Will the DC be too powerful for the cyclone lid and suck everything through anyways?
Is this enough power, assuming the short flexible hose, to get the fine dust that is so hazardous, even when using sanders?
Will it be able to handle the small power tools that normally require a shop-vac suction?
Powerful shop-vac (Fein, Festool) with a dust deputy or clearvue mini cyclone attachment, or Veritas lid (again on a 55-gal drum).
Will this be able to handle chip collection from a planer if I run 4" hoses from the machine with 2-1/2" reducers at the attachment?

[suzan odom]

2hp HF on sale and with discount coupon on $135.

Get the 0.5 micron retrofit filter kit from Wynn Environments for $91 vs the 30 micron bags its comes with.

[Ben Grunow]

Just recieved a Penn State catalog and discovered that they have a nice selection of smaller cyclones starting at $495 for a legitimate cyclone (think no dust). Seems like the best option I have seen.

www.pennstateind.com (http://www.pennstateind.com)

No affiliation

Ben

[Jim Becker]

The 1.5hp Oneida will "work" in a small shop and with the external filter its performance is better than the original 1.5hp units with the very small internal filter. But it's not "great" like their 2hp and up units are. (Same advise for the smaller Penn State machines--they don't move at lot of air 'cause they don't have the impeller and motor to do so) Oh, and these units are not really portable. I suppose you could build a stand with casters, but that will add time and expense.

The 1.5hp single stage dust collectors are portable and convenient to use in a small shop, especially when you open up the inlet (take off the wye connector that most have) and use a larger diameter hose with a reducer at the tool. These machines are best used with just a short hose and moved from tool to tool during use. The problem with the pre-separator trash can lid is that they only work with 4" hose...and that compromises performance.

Shop vacs are fine for small, hand-held tool dust extraction, but because of the way they work, they are not a good choice for servicing larger tools, such as table saws, planers, jointers, etc.

I will always recommend a good two-stage cyclone system if the means is there, but a portable single stage unit with updated filtration will function for chip and dust collection in a small shop, especially if you wear personal dust protection. If there is any way you can get a 240 v circuit into your shop, a 2hp cyclone is the best choice and by nature, they don't take up a lot of room when installed in a corner somewhere.

[Phil Thien]

More than anything else, dust collection is determined by the tools you have. I wouldn't hesitate to suggest a shop vac for someone using a portable table saw with a thoughtfully design dust port. For someone using a cabinet saw w/ no blade shroud, something with more CFM is going to be required.

So what have you got, and what do you plan on getting (fess-up :-).

[Randy Klein]

For machines, a 14" BS (Rikon), benchtop planer (Dewalt), and 6" jointer (Jet).

No TS and no plans on getting one.

Maybe there's a fourth option since I work in a garage. Open garage door, have box fans blow dust away from face and out door, only worry about chips.

[Pat Germain]

I have the Delta 50-760 and I'm tickled silly with its performance. I'm not using a cyclone attachment. The DC sits in the corner of my garage and takes up very little room. (I still park two vehicles in there when I'm not doing woodworking.) I left the Y adapter installed with the short, factory hose attached to a floor sweep with a blast gate. On the other port I have a long flex-hose which I attach to whatever tool I'm firing up.

This setup certainly isn't as convenient or powerful as a full-blown cyclone with duct-work. But, by golly, it works surprisingly well. I would recommend using a 50-760 for anyone setting up a garage shop. I seriously doubt a shop-vac would keep up with a 6" jointer or a 14" planer, but I guess with enough finesse, one could make it work.

Before I bought the 50-760, I was looking at a smaller Jet model at Rockler. The staff there didn't recommend the smaller DC when I told them I was also buying a 13" planer. The bigger DC was on sale and was only a little more money than the smaller DC. I think the Rockler guys did me right.

[Brian Kent]

Pat, I did the same as you. Got it on sale at rockler. One branch goes to floor sweep and table saw (both with gates) and the other gated branch gets reduced to 2-1/2" for either the router or belt sander.

The two places I want to improve:

1) Build a box around the router to collet the falling dust and chips. Don't know if I should make the one hose divide into two for top and bottom router collection.

2) Get the trash can mini cyclone attached to the floor vac. I do a lot of hand-planing (no electric jointer or planer) so my big curly chips get sucked up from the floor.

[Dave MacArthur]

Randy,
Bill Pentz website answers all 3 of your questions, though you have to dig a lot... I am in the same situation as several others here, a garage shop with a delta 50-760. Here is what Bill Pentz says:
1. The Oneida machine does not have enough CFM to do the job, unless you keep it on a short hose like 10', similar to the Delta 760. Further, the Oneida does not separate out any of the fine dust. IF you just use it to collect chips, and blow all the exhaust outside, then ANY of the devices/cyclones will work ok. The Delta 760 and that Oneida would need very short hoses.
2. the Delta 50-760 with a trash can separator: he specifically addresses this, which I was interested in because I have one...
NO.
The 4" inlet absolutely kills the 760's CFM, and drops it too low for fine dust collection. Something like from 850 down to 250 or something... anyways, he clearly says the 4" port in/out on the trashcan lids will ruin the CFM. AND, he also states that with the CFM that you DO have with the 1.5 HP delta 50-760, you would need a 5' diameter many feet tall to keep from sucking up all the stuff right through the device. I can't remember the exact nums, but it's something huge and in no way doable, around 5 feetish.
3. shop vac for planer chips-- unlikely, not enough CFM to keep the chips airborne and flowing. Need 3000 FPM (actually like 2700 if no verticals), and 350-450 CFM just for chips, which equates to a 6" hose. The high static pressure ability and FPM of the shop vac would instantly drop (CFM) as soon as you open the hose to a 4" port to get the chips. Something might be possible, however... I used my shopvac for chip collection on a table saw for 15 years, and mostly I just ended up vacuuming my "dust hood" where it all piled up.

The advice someone gave about just opening the garage doors, over-pressurizing via some large air-moving fans, and blowing it all outside, appears to be the most workable solution, if you are really going to attempt to follow Bill Pentz' advice.

I am in the exact same situation, and probably studied his website and this forum for hmm, over 15 hours last 2 weeks, on this issue. My current belief is this:
1. I should build a Pentz cyclone, put it outside in a "hush house", and vent the exhaust outside via perhaps a filter and muffler.
2. If I don't build one, I can buy ANY CYCLONE AT ALL with sufficient power, so long as I DON'T FILTER AND I VENT OUTSIDE.
3. If I want to filter, not vent outside, and not constantly load the filter and clean (ruining filter and thus the fine dust pump problem), I should probably buy the ClearVue (or one other brand he mentions now). This is based on his assertions on how much fine dust cyclones pass to the filter, which either clog (if good ones) or pass it through.
.................
That's a lot of $$ and I'm not sure I'll get to it. What are my other options? Bill and all the data I read say this:
1. Work outside when able.
2. Wear a respirator with 100 filtering media when you create dust.
3. Running my Delta 50-760 DOES get the chips and save me from sweeping the floor, but it also probably acting as a dust pump, and just blowing all the worst dust all over, worse than if I didn't have it running likely. The 1 micron bag in NO WAY is actually filtering at 1 micron, unless it is so loaded with dust that it's moving very little air. If I run the thing (which I do), I am just saving cleanup... I still wear my respirator.
4. Best thing heard so far, and what I have arrived at myself: open the garage doors, install large air-moving fans in the side-door blowing air INTO the garage, thus over-pressuring it and blowing air OUT the garage doors. Don't try to suck air out as it will only move that local area, you must blow it in. Concurrently run your 50-760, and wear your respirator.

That (#4) is the unwelcome answer I arrived at after massive study, and what I am living with in 100degree plus Phoenix afternoons. I figure that one summer of woodworking with a respirator in the un-airconditioned garage will help me reconsider the cost of a ClearVue cyclone and be more able to stomach it ;)
Good luck! Any mistakes I made in paraphrasing Bill Pentz' truly fantastic work are wholly my own. I highly recommend you go back and look at his FAQ, where he discusses these options in some more convincing detail, though it might take over an hour to dig it out ;)

[Dave MacArthur]

P.S. AF hey? Yep, I thought so when I read your "move every few years". Wright Patt hey? Luke myself. I'm studying the dust problem for Ground Safety input/solution for the base woodworking shop at Luke AFB, as the current cyclone (huge, outside, vented outside) is on the blink. I'm concurrently pushing to replace our old Unisaws with Sawstops, based on having multiple users with various skill levels. The cost of a single accident, in AF dollars let alone personal trauma and life-change, would pay for SawStops easily. And my squadron (ok mostly me), for example, did self-help project building de-briefing-room cabinetry to hold video de-briefing equipment, saving well over the cost of 2 SawStops and several clearVues.

[Joe Jensen]

I'll give a contrary view which might get me in trouble since Bill Pentz is very well liked here on this board.

Bill Pentz is a little extreme in his requirements. I have a 2HP Oneida and it is a HUGE improvement over nothing. I had Oneida prepare the duct plan and according to the Pentz website, I have too small ducts. Funny thing is, I've done a lot of reading and every industrial dust collection text, supplier, and engineer I've spoken too uses the same CFM table for the machines, and they all use the same tables for duct work requirements.

Like I said, my 2HP Oneida works great with permanent hard ducts as long as 45 feet. I think a 1.5 or 2HP cyclone system that you move to each machine is the best idea in your situation. Most 1.5 or 2HP motors can be wired for either 110V or 220V. With a portable collector, you save on duct costs (I spent as much on ducts as the on the collector). And, with a portable collector your duct run is very short. I would try to go with a 5" duct however as 4" really restrics the flow. I have 5" ducts to each machine as recommended by Oneida. My Planer needs 800CFM so it has a 6" duct...joe

[Dave MacArthur]

Interesting, Joe, and really good information for me, as indeed I am faced with some limiting factors in that recommended setup myself. BTW, contrary views are often the most important ones to hear.

[Randy Klein]

Dave, you must be inside my head because you summarized everything I've been thinking...

After the first few posts, I went back to Bill's website and dug some more (seems like you can do that forever). I agree with your assessment of his information and think your option 4 is the solution and agree it is unwelcome.

I too have the 50-760 and am very happy with it as a chip collector. I thought I was doing fine for myself as a dust collector until I started reading on Bill's site and this forum, and now know that I have a dust pump. This is what led me to the specific questions I posed.

So I got myself a respirator (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000BYE9Q/105-3955954-9149216), my first one. It says its N95, is that good? And I open the garage door. Bill mentions that it takes 6 hours for the fine dust to settle, I wonder how long it takes to vacate my garage with no fans and just outside breeze.

In the winter time, though, opening the garage door may not be an option. My garage is unheated, but the garage door does keep it a few degrees warmer. But I have no qualms about venting outside if I had a cyclone.

I think the best option for me may be the 1.5HP cyclone, make it mobile, vent outside. I think you summarized Bill well enough that if you don't filter, there is ample power to move enough air to capture fine dust. Its when you add a filter, you have to ratchet up the power to compensate. Does he ever talk about adding parallel filter banks to increase the filter capacity to enormous amounts so you can reduce the power reqt's?

I wish there was an easy mod to the 50-760 to add some cyclone attachment/vent outside thingy. But I don't think that exists. I may have to cough alot in front of my wife and then talk about proper dust collection...

As for venting outside, can you just run some flex hose from the outport and stick it out the window? Does that need to a big hose?

[Randy Klein]

Joe, I appreciate your contrary view (keep them coming) and I really have no basis to determine who's more correct. Bill's reqt's may be extreme and overkill, but its also probably the more safe (expensive) than sorry solution. You say the 1.5 HP machine should be plenty, is that with filtering or venting outside?

[Randy Klein]

Dave, yep WPAFB. Our woodworking shop here is actually top-notch. We have 2 Sawstops. The biggest HP ones. Really nice. Also have 8" and 16" jointer, 20" planer, 24" sander, 20" BS and a few router tables. All industrial cast-iron behemoths. I considered doing all my work there, but there's a lot of inconvenience involved.

[Randy Klein]

Brian, you run 2-1/2" hose off the 50-760. How's that working for you? Are you getting enough suction at the tool? Would you rather be using a shop-vac?

[Vic Damone]

My Craftsman 16 gal shop vac gave up the ghost and since I'm extremely space challenged I attempted to transform the carcass of the dead shop vac into a portable cyclone.

I began by removing the motor from the lid and installing a galvanized vase/champaign bucket (funnel shape) to the self clamping top of the old vac. I cutout the bottom of the bucket and attached a plastic 2 1/2" angle fitting ($5 Rockler) to the upper side of the bucket and connected the 2 1/2" hose coming from my contractor table saw to the angled fitting.

I then added a ten inch portion of a vacuum wand through the center of a 3/4" plywood doughnut that seals the top of the bucket, on down the center of the cyclone. Connecting the vacuum hose from the new quiet running Ridgid model 1850 ($150) shop vac to the female end of the wand creating a functional cyclone. Plugging the vac into a tool and vacuum switch ($35) simplifies its use.

For less than $50 I have a self sealing cyclone on wheels that keeps up with the dust collection needs of the saw and many of my other small machines. the amount of waste that enters the Ridgid vac is minimal and the upgraded filter stays clean. I can actually pull both units by the vacuum hose when cleaning the work area.

I apologize for the lack of a photo and the long description, my son has the camera on vacation.

Vic

[Randy Klein]

Dave, one more thing, you have the 50-760 with trash can separator, I can't tell if you just have the DC or DC with separator? If you do, does the DC suck everything through anyways or are the chips left behind?

My option #2, was using the Veritas Cyclone lid (4" ports) with my 50-760 (still not a dust collector, only chips). If I remove the filter and rig up some sort of hose attachment to vent outside, do you think this would increase air flow to the point that it sucks the chips all the way through the trash can?

Maybe I should just learn to 4 square lumber by hand...

[Randy Klein]

Vic, do you run this on a planer or jointer?

[Grant Wilkinson]

Randy

Enough has been said about portable vs stationery, etc. I have a 2 hp Craftex on a duct system, and a 1.5 HP on my table saw. They work well, but not as well as I would like.
One of your considerations seems to be size. On my duct system, I have the Veritas cyclone lid on a large 55 gallon translucent plastic barrel. It works great, but it takes up a lot of space. The barrel has almost as large a footprint as the DC.
Just FWIW.

Grant
Ottawa ON

[Randy Klein]

Grant,
Luckily the 50-760 (http://www.amazon.com/Delta-50-760-Horsepower-Vertical-Collector/dp/B00078V9KA) has the motor mounted up some, so there is space below for a trashcan separator. There shouldn't be an increase to the overall footprint if I can fit in there.

On your veritas lid, do you have the 4" ports?

[Wilbur Pan]

Randy,

I have a small basement workshop, and pored over Bill Pentz's website when planning dust collection. For what it's worth, my day job is being a pediatric oncologist, so I know "too much" when it comes to the health hazards of wood dust.

To get to the punch line, I have a small basement workshop, with no way of venting outside. My dust collection consists of a 1.5 HP bag type dust collector with an 8' run of 4" flex hose that I move from machine to machine, and an air cleaner in a small basement workshop.

Bill's site has a lot of excellent information, but I think he focuses too much on the issue of collecting dust at the source. This is obviously the best option, but his own measurements have shown that even with very large high powered cyclone DC systems, that there is always some dust that escapes.

There has to be a way of dealing with this, and that is some sort of air cleaner system. The trick is to size the air cleaner to the room. Conventional wisdom says that an air cleaner should circulate the room volume 6-10 times an hour. I went for 25 air exchanges per hour, which should clear out 99.99% of the dust in ~30 minutes. Luckily, it's not too hard to do this -- just add in more air cleaners. To give you an idea, my workshop is 20' x 10' x 8', and one JDS 750-ER hits this number.

In addition, you can get a lot of performance by keeping the duct runs short. If the duct runs are short enough, even 4" flex hose can give you acceptable results. I have a 1.5 HP bag type dust collector with an 8' 4" flex hose that I move from machine to machine. According to a dust collection spreadsheet on Bill Pentz's website, this setup has quite a low resistance, allowing my DC to pull adequate CFM for dust collection.

But the bottom line is:

1. Venting outside is by far the best solution.
2. Keep your duct runs short.
3. Because trapping 100% of the dust at the source seems to be impossible, you NEED a back up plan (air cleaner).

[Randy Klein]

Wilbur,

Thats very useful information, thank you. I think your bottom line is right on.

Do you know if the air cleaner calculations is affected by the garage door being open? This kind of messes with the room volume.

My new thinking (and it changes a few times a day):
1. Use my 50-760 with short ducts and cyclone trash can lid (veritas) for chip collection and whatever dust it can get. I may try to vent it outside or upgrade to a cartridge filter.
2. Wear a respirator for as long as I can stand it.
3. In the summer months, open both doors in garage and use fans to move air.
4. In winter months, keep both doors closed to conserve what little heat there is and use an air cleaner.

I could use the air cleaner in the summer as well, but with both doors open (for cooling) I'm assuming its not circulating, thus not cleaning, the air. I could be wrong.

[Jim Becker]

Further, the Oneida does not separate out any of the fine dust.

I believe this is a very misleading and untrue statement. Different generation of product, even...by two or three iterations. I do agree with the premise that a 1.5 hp cyclone system (from anyone) is marginal in CFM performance outside of very small shops with pretty much direct connection to the tool.

[Vic Damone]

Vic, do you run this on a planer or jointer?

Randy, Short answer, no. My planer is a DeWalt 735 and I user their accessory Waste Hose into a medium sized can. No jointer on hand.

Vic

[Dave MacArthur]

Randy, I have the 50-760 by itself, no separator. Like you, I was/am considering the exact same questions for improving my setup. I used the google search SMC option, then just read every thread on these forums concerning DC. This led me to reading many posts from Bill Pentz, and then on to his website.
I should make it clear to you that my entire reply up above was not my personal experience/knowledge/opinion, but was merely an attempt to paraphrase and compress a lot of reading of Bill Pentz for you, to at least be sure you were aware he does address some of your questions.

As Jim Becker points out, many of the products out there have surely changed since Bill wrote his info--indeed, he states many times that his hope was that his engineering changes would be adopted/incorporated into DC manufacturers product. He also someplace in there states that Oneida had made some changes (maybe on an update page). We do know that several competition factors entered the market after Bill Pentz began his research (clearVue, changes by other manufacturs), and a strong player in the market like Oneida would surely begin incorporating technical improvments into their product. Again, I have absolutely no firsthand testing or knowlege of various cyclones, and was merely doing a "book report" for you, but I in no way intended to personally disparage any product. I do know that many of the extremely knowledgable folks on these forums have decided on the Oneida (Sasha Gast has a nice shop tour showing his new setup, very impressive!), and I must believe they (like you and I) wrestled with these issues before their decision too.

What is difficult to know is information on this 2.5 micron and less "fine dust" issue. FWW I believe did a DC comparison in the last few months, and they did not address it at all, concentrating on static pressure and CFM. The unwritten assumption in the review seemed to be 100% collection of the dust with no filter-clogging ramifications. The concept that invisible bad-stuff was just being blown right through the filters never even occurred to me until reading Bill's site, and frankly it has set my DC plans back to square 1. The only place I have found where a reputable and seemingly technically proficient tester discusses fine dust comparisons, is Bill's site itself. Of course there may be thousands of technical sites for air-engineers, which I just have not read, but I found no links to such data in my SMC reading. While independant corroboration would be nice, it just may be that no one else is doing the onerous work that Bill Pentz is. One thing I am sure of is this: it would absolutely be great if DCs were tested and rated on these health-factors by something like OSHA, in addition to the more mundane CFM, using controlled standards so one didn't have to rely purely on manufacturs statements without testing conditions and data being known.

This would surely drive additional competition and improvments by manufacturers in the same way that magazine reviews do for other equipment--as Jim points out, some of these machines may have completley changed. These guys are in business, and that usually means constantly working to have the best product in so far as that drives profits.

Good luck!

[Wilbur Pan]

Do you know if the air cleaner calculations is affected by the garage door being open? This kind of messes with the room volume....

I could use the air cleaner in the summer as well, but with both doors open (for cooling) I'm assuming its not circulating, thus not cleaning, the air. I could be wrong.
Hi Randy,

Your strategy is exactly what I would do.

For your garage, I'd just calculate the volume of your garage with the doors closed for planning for an air cleaner.

The best thing by far is to open the garage doors and use fans, as you plan to do. If you set up the air cleaner so that the intake points into the shop and the outflow side points out toward one of your open garage doors, it will work as a fan as well. But there's no sense in wasting your filter if you can exhaust the dust outside.

The "circulating the dusty air" thing as a reason to not use air cleaners is really overstated. It's possible to model dust removal behavior with two situations. The first is that you bring in fresh air as you filter the dirty air inside the room. This is what you get with exhausting the air outside or bringing in fresh air with a window. The second case is where you cannot exhaust air or bring in fresh air, as in my workshop or your garage, if the doors are closed, so that the air cleaner really is circulating the same air around. In this case, the air cleaner still will be able to remove dust, just not as efficiently as in the first case. But if your air cleaner moves enough CFM relative to your room volume (again, my goal is 25 exchanges per hour), you'll still be able to get good results. In my case, assuming reasonable efficiency, it's the difference between clearing 99.9999% of the dust in 47 minutes in a closed room vs. 23 minutes with the windows open.

Boy, I which I had windows I could open. :rolleyes:

Wilbur

[Ralph Barhorst]

2hp HF on sale and with discount coupon on $135.

Get the 0.5 micron retrofit filter kit from Wynn Environments for $91 vs the 30 micron bags its comes with.

I have this system and I would also recommend it. It is on wheels and can move from one machine to another. I works very well. The Wynn filter does a good job and when the airflow decreases you just need to whack the filter a few times with a board and the dust drops into the bag and the flow is back to normal.

[Joe Jensen]

Joe, I appreciate your contrary view (keep them coming) and I really have no basis to determine who's more correct. Bill's reqt's may be extreme and overkill, but its also probably the more safe (expensive) than sorry solution. You say the 1.5 HP machine should be plenty, is that with filtering or venting outside?

What I am saying is;
1) a Cyclone is much preferable
2) 2HP Cyclone with filter is MUCH better than nothing in my shop. There is a lot of fine dust in my canister, and very little in the filter.
3) Bill's approach will certainly yield better fine dust collection, but a higher capital cost, more noise, and more operating cost. In my situation, I only have a 50 amp 220V service to the garage. I would have to run a new 100amp service to use a 5HP collector and my larger tools.

I have the Onieda cartidge filter on my collector. There is very little dust in the filter except when I overfilled the canister :(

Is my setup good enough? Depends on how much you are in the shop and how sensitive to dust you are. Realistically, with work and fatherhood, I get maybe 100 to 200 hours in my shop a year, and most of that is not spent with tools hooked up to the dust collector. I do fill the 35 gal canister more than once a day when using the planer and jointer a lot.

The biggest improvement in fine dust collection was the switch to a very high quality vacuum and Festool sanders. I have a WAP drywaller vac with HEPA filter (now Alto) that cost around $1K 10 years ago. This vac pulls more volume at a higher static pressure than the Festool vac or the Fein vac, and it only generates 56db. When I bought it, the Fein and Festool vacs were not available. The Fein is similar in specs and is 59db. The Festool is similar and is 72db. Any of these vacs and a Festool sander will keep most of the fine sanding dust out of the air. Before trying the Festool sanders, I was using the WAP vac with Porter Cable sanders. This was an improvement, but not enough and I was getting ready to buy a $2500 Denray downdraft sanding table to keep the sanding dust down. A friend suggested trying a Festool sander first. Recently I sanded fro 2 hours solid wearing a black cotton shirt. After 2 hours, there was no dust visible on the shirt at all.

Since switching all sanders to Festool, not sanding without the vac, and getting the Oneida setup, I can work all day and not have any buildup of dust/crud in my nose by the end of the day. I should have done this years ago...joe

One more thing, I work in a 3 car garage and 99% of the time, the doors are open so one long side of my shop is open most of the time.

[Randy Klein]

Dave,

This forum is a wealth of information. The only downside is knowing when the older posts are no longer or less relevant. I did not know that Oneida had made any changes in response to Bill Pentz and Clearvue. I guess I hadn't read that yet. I wonder if anyone has more specific information regarding that.

I understand that you were providing a book report, and I appreciate it greatly. My questions back to you were hoping you had could recall more information from Bill's site before I could find it myself. As you know, his site is liking drinking from the firehose and I got a lot of water up my nose the last time I went there...

I agree that it would be nice to have standardized testing, but that probably won't happen. Maybe all the home hobbyists should unionize and demand it...

I just don't want to go down another road to good dust collection to find out it has potholes. That's why I'm trying to get good directions...

[Randy Klein]

If you set up the air cleaner so that the intake points into the shop and the outflow side points out toward one of your open garage doors, it will work as a fan as well. But there's no sense in wasting your filter if you can exhaust the dust outside.


That's exactly what I was thinking for warm day use. Plus, w/o filters to block the air path the throughput should be alot stronger and help push more dirty air out.

[Greg Crawford]

Randy,

2 things I didn't see mentioned (I may have just missed them). How much do you want to spend and have you considered the new Oneida portable with twin cyclones and cartridge filters? I just got their catalog, and it shows a price of $1473. Big price, but it's all one unit instead of a seperate can for the cyclone.

I got a Shop Fox 2 HP DC (with just the bags) and was amazed at the amount of air it moved. It was touted as having the highest CFM in it's class, which is why I bought it. Unfortunately it let so much dust through there was always a fine layer left on everything. I got a 1 micron bag from American Fabric Filter company and it took care of most of the dust layer (I use a garbage bag inside the bottom bag, as the new top bag is about 3 times bigger than the original). I don't know what the air quality is like with the new bag, and want to get a nice cyclone soon with a cartridge filter. Venting outside just isn't an option in the Houston climate. Even if you can stand the heat, the tools can't handle the humidity.

Good Luck

[Pat Germain]

I think you guys may be over-analyzing a bit here. I also don't believe the Delta 50-760 is a "dust pump". I've been running mine a lot with my table saw and planer. The bag sits in a corner and there is absolutely no dust on the walls around the bag. If it was a dust pump, would there not be lots of dust around the bag? Would there not also be a lot of sawdust settling in my garage after running my tools? There isn't any, which leads me to believe the DC is doing a fine job of filtering dust.

I also think the assumption that the bag cannot filter without clogging may be invalid. Based on the design of the DC, it's likey a majority of the dust, as well as the chips, fall into the bag below do to that mysterious force known as gravity. :cool:

Wearing a respirator is probably the only way to be certain we are breathing the absolute minimum amount of dust. However, I'll bet the difference between using a respirator and using just a decent dust collector is minimal. I we are stressing this much over dust collection, perhaps we should find another hobby. :)

If we were working with wood for a living, exposed eight or more hours a day and five or more days a week, I could understand stressing over dust collection. If we are doing it only a few hours a week, I don't see it as such a big deal. Certainly, it's something to be concerned about, but I don't think it's going to kill us before something else does.

[Randy Klein]

Randy,

2 things I didn't see mentioned (I may have just missed them). How much do you want to spend and have you considered the new Oneida portable with twin cyclones and cartridge filters?

Greg,

Price is not really the limiting factor, as I'm trying to plan what is needed and then work on money later.

But I only have 110V and most cyclones and I imagine the twin cyclones as well are 220V.

[glenn bradley]

I run a trash can separator and love the convenience. That being said it puts a helluva hit on your CFM. I don't know but from experience would say that a properly designed 1HP cyclone would beat a 1.5HP with the separator. Also, you mention space restrictions and my trashcan takes up the same amount of room as my DC by the time you allow for ingress and egress paths for the hose.

[Randy Klein]

I think you guys may be over-analyzing a bit here. I also don't believe the Delta 50-760 is a "dust pump". I've been running mine a lot with my table saw and planer. The bag sits in a corner and there is absolutely no dust on the walls around the bag. If it was a dust pump, would there not be lots of dust around the bag? Would there not also be a lot of sawdust settling in my garage after running my tools? There isn't any, which leads me to believe the DC is doing a fine job of filtering dust.


Pat,

I believe the dust that is "pumped" is supposedly of the size too small to see, yet that size is the most hazardous to health size. So, not seeing dust deposits is not a sign that the dust is not being pumped (triple negative I know). Not exactly sure, just trying to remember.

I say supposed because like the other posts have mentioned, there hasn't been much standardized testing done at the hobbyist workshop level, with the exception of Bill Pentz.

It seems that dust collection is somewhat like Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager). If you trust Bill and follow his recommendations and in the end it turned out to be unnecessary overkill, then some time and money were wasted. But if you don't, and he turned out to be right, well...

[Pat Germain]

^^ I understand what you're saying, Randy. I guess to be sure I could push my DC just outside the garage door. This would work as long as it wasn't too cold outside.

As for dust particles smaller than we can see, I'm wondering if we're already breathing stuff worse than that anywhere in a moderately sized city.

[Bruce Page]

Randy, I run the Delta 50-850 with Penn State felt bags & no separator. My setup is much like Pat Germain’s.
My Powermatic 15” planner is the principal chip maker and the 50-850 handles it with ease.
Sure I would like to have a full blown cyclone but I simply don’t have the room.

[Joe Jensen]

Randy, I run the Delta 50-850 with Penn State felt bags & no separator. My setup is much like Pat Germain’s.
My Powermatic 15” planner is the principal chip maker and the 50-850 handles it with ease.
Sure I would like to have a full blown cyclone but I simply don’t have the room.

Is the footprint for a cyclone setup really more than for a 2 stage setup? Seems similar to me...joe

[Bruce Page]

Is the footprint for a cyclone setup really more than for a 2 stage setup? Seems similar to me...joe
The footprint isn’t all that different although the cyclones are much taller. In my circumstance, I don’t have a dedicated corner that I can put a cyclone. My 50-850 lives in front of the garage door when not in use and I just roll it where needed. My real show stopper is the ducting. I have several recessed light fixtures in my shop ceiling along with several other obstacles and running the ducting would be a nightmare.
The point of my original post was the 1.5hp non-cyclone DC’s when fitted with quality felt bags, do a very good job in a small shop.

[Randy Klein]

^^ I understand what you're saying, Randy. I guess to be sure I could push my DC just outside the garage door. This would work as long as it wasn't too cold outside.

As for dust particles smaller than we can see, I'm wondering if we're already breathing stuff worse than that anywhere in a moderately sized city.

That doesn't sound like a bad solution at all. And as for city air, I used to live in So Cal for many years, so I'm probably already screwed...

[Wilbur Pan]

As for dust particles smaller than we can see, I'm wondering if we're already breathing stuff worse than that anywhere in a moderately sized city.

The quick answer is, yes, wood dust is worse than typical city air pollution in two ways. First, the concentration of fine wood dust generated by typical woodworking operations is higher than typical smog pollution levels in urban areas. The fact that many of us work in small enclosed rooms with inadequate ventilation compounds this issue.

Secondly, the type of dust that woodworking generates is worse than typical urban smog pollution. The fine dust particles you really need to worry about are the particles on the order of 0.1-1 microns in size, which are the particles that will cause pulmonary fibrosis. The only other major source of dust particles this size is cigarette smoke.

In any case, the dust exposure from woodworking is an additive effect to environmental pollution, so it make little sense to say, "I live in L.A. where the air already sucks, so I'll just blow off dust management in my workshop."

[Chris Kalkowski]

2hp HF on sale and with discount coupon on $135.

Get the 0.5 micron retrofit filter kit from Wynn Environments for $91 vs the 30 micron bags its comes with.


What model was this Susan. I looked just now and in AZ one goes for $199 on sale.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=45378

[Dave Sabo]

Might want to give the small JDS cyclone a look.