Why wouldn't I like (insert imported tool name here)

[Dave Morris]

First up, I'm not bashing any brand of stationary power tool available on the market today. The reality of the world we live in means more and more tools are made overseas. As the other thread about imported tools from China, Taiwan, Italy, etc., has pointed out, tools can be made to the factory's specs, or made to higher specs at additional cost.

Unfortunately, price alone isn't a great way to judge a tool's quality-- witness the many posts on Amazon's fluctuating prices. And appearances can be deceiving: identical looking tools on the outside can have different metal characteristics, motors, bearings, electrical components... all the way down to durability, warranty, service, and parts availability should the need arise. A tool that looks identical at first glance may be a mere shadow of it's competitor in the long term.

Most of us don't have the opportunity to see and use multiple brands of the same kind of tool. Sure, we can read forums like this and sift through the posts, but how many of those posters have actually been able to compare the differences that "make the difference" when buying a new tool? Not that the poster isn't well meaning and giving his or her honest answer, but really, how many of us have had the chance to compare one person's Delta jointer to another person's Jet or Grizzly?

One school of thought seems to be "old tools are better, but require some work to bring it back" while another is "new tools are safer (or cheaper, or have more options, or...) and work right now". I do remember a time a few years ago when Grizzly was kind of a tool stepchild of the forum poster, but have read many posts lately praising Grizzly's quality. Good for them, I'm interested in their quality and durability, but when there's no dealer within a day's drive, it's hard to inspect a tool's innards from a company's web site.

Granted, the home shop tools of today don't have massive amounts of cast iron. The Unisaw of today has more plastic on it than the Unisaw of my father's time (you won't find a cast iron motor cover on a new Unisaw, that's for sure). Then again, comparing the tools marketed to the home shop of today with a restored antique "industrial" tool pictured in some guy's home shop isn't exactly fair either. Industrial Old Wood Working Machines are cool, I luv 'em, but they're not exactly easy to come by, and getting scarcer every day.

I guess my question boils down to this: Who's making the Old Wood Working Machines of tomorrow? Why should I like (insert imported brand name here), or... how do I/you/we choose a new tool that will last a lifetime (cry once theory) from among the crowd of similar looking tools?



Dave

[scott spencer]

I guess my question boils down to this: Who's making the Old Wood Working Machines of tomorrow? Why should I like (insert imported brand name here), or... how do I/you/we choose a new tool that will last a lifetime (cry once theory) from among the crowd of similar looking tools?


Good question, and several good points. I sure don't get around alot of industrial grade machinery, but those are the types of machines that tend to be as overbuilt as the old school stuff. We may never see machines that were constructed like the old 16" Crescent jointers or old 36" bandsaws again...sculpted cast iron! It's just too darned expensive to ship stuff anymore.

- The Canadian made General machinery seems to have a reputation of longevity...it's "North American made" and much of the cast iron components are relatively unchanged...it's the boltons and features that evolve.

- The MM16 I've been around seems to be built for the long haul too.

- From what I've seen of the SawStop, the basic construction of that machine seems pretty robust, but it's hard to predict how well the actual brake mechanism will hold up over the decades.

- I'm sure there is still some pretty beefy PM machines still being made too.

The nice thing about modern technology is that if it needs to be overbuilt, they sure can do it....I suspect military equipment would be a testimonial to how things can be made.

[Lee DeRaud]

... how do I/you/we choose a new tool that will last a lifetime (cry once theory) from among the crowd of similar looking tools?I'll probably come to regret saying this before this thread runs its course, but the short answer is: I don't.

I don't expect to make a "lifetime buy" when it comes to cars or televisions or computers or furniture, so why should I do so when buying tools? I realize that woodworking tools are a "mature technology": one doesn't expect revolutionary improvements in the major categories. What does evolve are my needs and limitations, in terms of what kinds of projects I'm interested in doing, the degree of skill I'm bringing to the table (so to speak), and the space and money I'm willing to commit to a new tool. So tool-buying decisions become similar to car-buying decisions, or sofa-buying decisions, or television-buying decisions: deciding what fits my needs in the foreseeable future, within the space/cost/capability envelope I've established for this particular acquisition.

I'm not going into the process expecting the purchase to outlive me, but I do look for "value" in any purchase, in terms of quality plus capability divided by cost, and I'm usually not willing to spend extra for a particular country of origin, over-engineering (e.g. using metal for non-structural parts where plastic will perform equally as well, cf. cast-iron motor cover), or extra points in Internet appendage-size contests. Life's too short.

[Mike Henderson]

I agree with Lee. I'll also point out the difference in design capability, using a bridge as an example. Long ago before we had the computers and software, a bridge designer over specified everything because it was the only way to be safe. But today, the stresses on a bridge can be analyzed much more accurately, allowing the designer to specify only what's necessary. This has allowed us to build lighter bridges at lower cost, and meet the design life.

I think the same thing is true with tools. A tool should have a design life and it should be designed to last that long. Most people will not pay for a 100 year design life because they won't be around to use it that long.

A product should be designed to meet the needs of the buyer, and cost is one of the needs of the buyer. People who make products know that and design accordingly.

I think we get some excellent tools, at good prices, from that market imperative.

Mike

[Dennis Peacock]

I look for tools that I won't have to keep buying over and over. I've wasted a lot of money over the last several years on buying less than what I considered to be the best. Finally, after 20 years, I've gotten several tools that I expect to hand down to my own kids. I look for quality, but just not at the cost of the home mortgage. ;)

[Greg Peterson]

I'm not sure that cast iron is always the best material for every application.

So long as the tool is engineered to deliver an appropriate level of performance and longevity, it isn't practical to use the heaviest or strongest materials for components that do not require that degree of strength.

I'd prefer a cast iron frame in a bandsaw, but only because that material is proven to provide a superior rigidity. On day there will likely exist a material that is superior in strength and rigidity at a fraction of the weight and cost and may well provide for new manufacturing techniques that result in lower cost to the consumer and better performance.

I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet. But I do agree that some designs do seem to compromise a performance and longevity for the sake of lower cost.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

my question boils Who's making the Old Wood Working Machines of tomorrow? Why should I like (insert imported brand name here), or... how do I/you/we choose a new tool that will last a lifetime (cry once theory) from among the crowd of similar looking tools?

Best answer I got:
That depends.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm not ready to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet. But I do agree that some designs do seem to compromise performance and longevity for the sake of lower cost.
Some people only want to pay so much for a tool and are willing to accept the lower performance and less longevity for the lower price. If so, they got a good deal - they got exactly what they wanted.

The issue is when someone buys that lower performing tool and expects it to give extreme accuracy and have a super extended life.

The market provides different strokes for different folks. We have Lee-Nielsen and Anant planes and people buy both and both can get a good deal as long as they are informed, knowledgeable buyers.

Mike

[Chuck Lenz]

In most cases you can't beat American made. Canada is probably another good choice.

[Don Bullock]

I figure at my age, all the tools I buy will "last a lifetime," well , at least mine.;) Unlike some here, I don't have any children to pass them on to. That being said, I do buy the best I can afford for the job I need them for, but I try to be somewhat reasonable as well.

The debate as to whether they make things like they used to has gone on for many generations. Simply, the answer is NO!:D In many cases this is good. I certainly don't miss any of the old tools that I got rid of.

[Mike Heidrick]

I look at the tools I have purchased and figure that even if the motor, wiring, electrical, or the switch fails, I can replace all of that. I really do not see ever having any problems with the CI or the solid steel frames, or whatever. Ultimately the unkown motors are the weakest link in the Delta DJ30 and DC580 I have because I do not know how well they are made. I doubt they could sell faulty tools for $3k+ apiece though. Ever other part is crazy over made - I have no issues with the fact these are made in Taiwan. The lowly Jet 14" open stand bandsaw is not going to have problems either I would bet. I do own a sawstop and I figure I keep it unplugged when not in use so I doubt I will have computer issues - but it is the biggest risk in the shop due to the tehnology involved. If it ever blows up and if SS is no longer around, and if I have no other means to get it running - I will buy a new saw. Used saws a plenty get sold. I am not at all afraid of 3 phase and those saws are sold pretty much weekly in the PM66 and Uni flavors - my personal bechmark for a cabinet saw. I can replace whatever tools I need to - this is not a situation for me where this is my last and only tool. Some new ones will be old and some old ones will still be like new.

[Dave Anderson NH]

My advice to friends when asked goes something like this.

"Buy the best you can afford and for major purchase of stationary power equipment it's better to do without and wait longer until you can raise the money than to buy the bottom end of the line. If you need to use a _____, use mine temporarily or ask for help from other friends. With the exception of dedicated importers/makers lines like Grizzly. MM, Sunhill, etc, stay away from house brands. Anyone who owns Reliant brand lost their ability to get service and parts when Woodworker's Warehouse went under. You don't want an orphan brand that can't offer you needed support. Remember that the key to good longevity and performance is maintenence. You can buy the best machine that exists, but if you don't take care of it, at some point it will disappoint you."

[Jim Becker]

"The most expensive tool is the one you need to replace early and often."

That said, I also agree with Lee that it's hard to make a "last purchase" decision...there are still going to be variables over time that might affect things and make you revisit a previous decision. Examples might be a change to the kind of work you do that has different requirements, or perhaps a change in your economic situation that gives you the flexibility to "move up" to something more capable, etc. It might even be an opportunity to acquire something for substantially less than you might have been able to in the past for some reason or another.

The rest of my advice would parallel Dave's...invest in the best quality tools and machines you can afford. That doesn't meant the most expensive. It may mean saving for an extra month or three, however. And once you have them, take care of them. The brand name or point of origin are not material, outside of some personal philosophical reasons you might have. But even then, keep an open mind... ;)

[Bart Leetch]

The newer better made tool like General or Sawstop, MiniMax are great but for my budget my 1940 Unisaw 1 1/2 generation old 1930's Delta lathe 1 3/4 generation old, 1950's Duro drill-press 1 1/4 generation old & 1967 12" Craftsman RAS 1 generation old work great Yes I do have 5 Grizzly tools & 1 Shopfox tool & 2 Jet tools. I try to look at my budget first & then examine the tools to see if it is reasonable quality & will do what I need to do it it is I buy it. If not I wait for my budget to catch up & then shop around for a better tool. All of my tools were paid for when I brought them home. Next months paying for todays gain is not the way to operate a hobby.

I stumbled into the old tool situation when Dad gave me his RAS & a friend of mine purchased the Delta lathe because he thought I'd like it & it only cost $50 the rest is history.

I have the hard task emotionally of going to pick up my Dad's tool next week end. while I'll enjoy having them it hard seeing Dad not have them or a place to use them anymore. Most of the tools will be stored accept the Bellsaw planer which will be in my shop.

[Dave Morris]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. As my brother in the wine business says when tourists visit his winery: "The best wine? Simple... it's the one you like."

I'm not sure I expressed my thoughts correctly, however. I'm not so much interested in justifying the purchase of the "best" tool on the market, as figuring out how to decipher the Designed Obsolescence that seems to permeate so many products these days. Obviously, woodworking tools have certain levels of customers, each with different expectations of what they will receive for their hard earned dollars. Someone having the need for a hand drill twice a year doesn't need the same quality as the person earning his living every day with his or her hand drill.

The problem with marketing these days is that terms like "Heavy Duty" have lost their meaning, whether it be a "Heavy Duty" light-duty pickup truck, or an "Industrial" tool rated at 5 horsepower on a 15 amp 110v wall outlet.

Sure, my needs may change as time passes, and what serves the purpose now may not fill my needs in the future. Most of us have had to make do with what we have on hand, and come up with the cleverest way we can to accomplish our goals -- the finished project -- when a spanky new Binford 3000 tool would do the job faster and with less frustration. I don't have a fancy panel raising bit for my home-made router table, much less the proper router to spin that bit at the correct speed. That doesn't mean I'm any less, or more, proud of the raised panels I made using my contractor table saw. They look nice, and I'm glad I was able to make them.

I learned a few lessons over the years the hard way. One was an imported lunchbox planer in which the motor gave up the ghost after less than 100 feet of redwood 1x6 boards. I made sure I was taking light cuts and not overworking the tool... but that's not exactly the life expectancy I anticipated for that type of tool. For me, buying the best tool I can, or saving until I can, makes more cents (pardon the pun) in the long run. I'd just prefer to make the most informed decision possible when the moment arrives. Truth be known, I can't afford to learn many more lessons that way.;)

Forums like this help me expand my horizons in an activity that gives me pleasure: woodworking as a hobby. In many ways, you all are the best tool I have for teaching "The Best Tool I Have" how to use the tools at my disposal with more safety, efficiency, and creativity. I don't post a lot, but I read this forum as much as time allows.

Over the course of many subjects and threads, you all have helped me more than you know. Sincerely, Thank You.... I mean it.


Dave

[Pat Germain]

I suspect military equipment would be a testimonial to how things can be made.

Sadly, in many cases, military equipment is gold-plated junk influenced more by politics than engineering and what the warrior actually needs. There are some amazing examples of durability and technology, but certainly not enough.

It used to be that the military would pave the way for new technologies and industry would follow. This has shifted. In many areas, the military waits for industry to pioneer new technologies and then follows. This turns out to be a lot cheaper than developing everything then trying to support it later.