Equipping $100,000 shop

[CPeter James]

No, it is not a joke. I will be assisting in the purchasing of the equipment for a new high school shop. There will be both wood and metal working equipment. The equipment will be of very high quality and mostly industrial size (PM 66 5hp 3ph; 20" planer; etc). I am looking for a source of reviews and comparisons. In have some ideas, but any input would be helpful. Anybody's list of what to buy and what not to buy would also assist. At this point, the sheet is blank.

The original budget was $247,000, but I would like to come in at half of that for both metal and woodworking. The school will have about 500 students and about 20 in a class. These will be "exploritory" classes, not shop majors.

Thanks,

CPeter

[Steven Wilson]

I would probably skip the Powermatic and go with a Felder or Altendorf sliding table saw, maybe a Martin and also a sliding table, tilting Shaper. A separate jointer and planer would be good. I would look at a 12" or 16" jointer and a 20" planer. Don't forget a few decent handtools - not everything can/should be done with a machine. Hand tools are good to make things fit. Over on the Felder forum on Yahoo was a good discusion last summer about equiping a shop in Goma (Africa) with Felder equipment and the joys and tribulations of doing such a deed in such different surroundings.

[CPeter James]

I would probably skip the Powermatic and go with a Felder or Altendorf sliding table saw, maybe a Martin and also a sliding table, tilting Shaper. A separate jointer and planer would be good. I would look at a 12" or 16" jointer and a 20" planer. Don't forget a few decent handtools - not everything can/should be done with a machine. Hand tools are good to make things fit. Over on the Felder forum on Yahoo was a good discusion last summer about equiping a shop in Goma (Africa) with Felder equipment and the joys and tribulations of doing such a deed in such different surroundings.

I think that convetional equipment would be better accepted by the paying public. That is how I got to do this volunteer job. I want tools the common man might recognise and not to be too exotic. I am hoping to get good solid basics. A sliding table is nice, I have a retofit on my saw in my shop at home and really like it. Space is going to be a problem. The shop is small for the amount of things that they think they want to do. For instance, it may be necessary to go with a 30" fence on the saw for lack of width. They have considered a panel saw in the first go round and that may be a viable option, I don't know how accurate they are, though.

Thans for the input.

CPeter

[Dave Anderson NH]

I'm sure both Jack Grube and Tom Ciccarello would be willing to help you out. In fact Jack is chairman of the New England Woodworking teachers association or whatever they call that group.

[Jim Becker]

Bucks County Community College replaced virtually all their shop equipment about a year ago and chose to go with an assortment of Felder and other high-end gear for both duty cycle and safety. (Better guards and designs for that with such things as riving knives. They also did it on a reasonable budget since a large chunk of it was grant money that Mark Sfirri was able to land. It's really transformed the shop, frankly, and the addition of lighting upgrades and a big-#$$ Oneida cyclone system really made for a total shop makeover.

The point I derived from my conversations after the upgrade is that the more industrial type equipment is going to take the wear and tear that a student shop delves out better than some other options might and that might preserve the investment for a longer time. But that's just an opinion I have and I do understand that many folks may feel more comfortable with the stuff they see at the woodworking stores.

[Dean Baumgartner]

I might almost think that staying with equipmnet that is resonable for the average person to have access to might be better where possible. How many of us have a 16" joiner at home? Is the goal to teach kids how to make things with only top of the line equipment or how to work with wood and produce the best they can with what's available. I remember taking shop in high school, making some really nice things and then being dissapointed that I couldn't even come close with what I had available at home.

Just a different approach.

Dean

[John Weber]

I disagree with Steve and Jim, I would stay away from the high end Felders, etc... First the students are not going to see this stuff again, and you are going to eat up your budget real fast. If is wasn't an intro type program, well maybe, but for entry level I would stick with quality machines that have withstood the test of time in school environments. What I would really consider is the guy selling the comlete shop on ebay for $45,000 including delivery. What you get is quality machines, and TOOLING (very expensive for startup) and end up with a sweet shop that would likely be close to $100,000 if everything was purchased new. If also gives you cash for wood, mulitple hand tools (20 block planes, 20 hand saws, 20 work stations, etc...) It would be nice if you could find benches at another school action, because they usually go cheap and are expensive to buy new. Setting up work stations and a small tool set for 20 studends will likely eat another $15,000, you figure another $5,000 for wood, and you still have $35,000 to set up the machining side. With that you could get a couple used CNC machines, maybe a EDM, or a couple metal lathes and a Bridgeport. $100,000 sounds like a lot, but tooling will eat it up like crazy. The shop on ebay could really get you started and be very budget friendly.

John

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2586623668&category=11810

[CPeter James]

I'm sure both Jack Grube and Tom Ciccarello would be willing to help you out. In fact Jack is chairman of the New England Woodworking teachers association or whatever they call that group.


Hi Dave,

I have already talked to Jack once and plan on a vist to him at school. Hopefully, I can bring the shop teached for the new school with me. Maybe a trip to Brentwood at the same time. We have a couple of months to get this all together, so it is not a panic, yet!! Jack had some good input and now that the situation has changed, I think he can really help as they administration has opened their minds a little. They wanted the Rolls Royce of shops, but I am hoping for just Cadillac.

I have to sell this to the annual school district meeting, so I do think that solid plain Jane is the way to go. (For those from the rest of the world, the School district meeting is like town meeting. Several hundred people gathered and voting by show of hands, so my proposal has to be accepted by some old conservative New Englanders).


I don't know Tome Ciccarello, do I? Is he a member of GNHW?

Thanks
CPeter

[CPeter James]

I disagree with Steve and Jim, I would stay away from the high end Felders, etc... First the students are not going to see this stuff again, and you are going to eat up your budget real fast. If is wasn't an intro type program, well maybe, but for entry level I would stick with quality machines that have withstood the test of time in school environments. What I would really consider is the guy selling the comlete shop on ebay for $45,000 including delivery. What you get is quality machines, and TOOLING (very expensive for startup) and end up with a sweet shop that would likely be close to $100,000 if everything was purchased new. If also gives you cash for wood, mulitple hand tools (20 block planes, 20 hand saws, 20 work stations, etc...) It would be nice if you could find benches at another school action, because they usually go cheap and are expensive to buy new. Setting up work stations and a small tool set for 20 studends will likely eat another $15,000, you figure another $5,000 for wood, and you still have $35,000 to set up the machining side. With that you could get a couple used CNC machines, maybe a EDM, or a couple metal lathes and a Bridgeport. $100,000 sounds like a lot, but tooling will eat it up like crazy. The shop on ebay could really get you started and be very budget friendly.

John

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2586623668&category=11810


The heck with the kids, I'll buy it, just don't know where to put it all. Too bad, we have to deal with some rule, like bidding it out for the school stuff. The pictures make it look good.

CPeter

[Mark Singer]

Dean,
Excellent advice. Learn on the equipment that is typical and what you will actually use. Computerized hi-tech equip. is not fine woodworking...it is processing wood. I'm sure one of the best equipped shops in the world is in the Ikea factory...and all they make is a bunch of crap! ...with their automated sliding table edgebanding mortising combination slicing and dicing equipment. I would rather see some good basic equipment and great benches and fine hand tools... Some things don't get better ...they just change!
Mark

[John Weber]

Bummer, some smaller school districts can be a little more flexible, but even $45,000 is a bit for a super to sign off on. Would have been a nice way to get outfitted. If you focus on what you want to do you should be able to get set up. Just drop that metal stuff...

John

P.S. My Dad teaches wood, metals, drafting, and electronics. I think the coolest thing they did in metals was pour sand cast molds. Years ago they use to make cannons on the lathes that really fired, but the was before the schools went insane...

[Dennis Peacock]

I would stick with Delta, Jet and PM for the lines of power tools to choose from. 8" jointer would be fine for a school shop. A good cabinet saw, 16 or 18" bandsaw, a good variable speed lathe and such. I was in shop class for all 4 years of high school and loved it. Problem was, after I got out of school...I found out how EXPENSIVE those machines were and didn't venture into woodworking until years later. Our school shop was outfitted with stuff that the common person couldn't even THINK about buying for a home shop....unless you are a Jim Becker or a Todd Burch.....no offense guys....just envious of your really nice tools. :)

Keep it simple and affordable and don't forget good hand tools. Power tools and tools in general do not a craftsman make.....it is skill and learned knowledge that makes a woodworker.

[Dean Baumgartner]

I would stick with Delta, Jet and PM for the lines of power tools to choose from. 8" jointer would be fine for a school shop. A good cabinet saw, 16 or 18" bandsaw, a good variable speed lathe and such. I was in shop class for all 4 years of high school and loved it. Problem was, after I got out of school...I found out how EXPENSIVE those machines were and didn't venture into woodworking until years later. Our school shop was outfitted with stuff that the common person couldn't even THINK about buying for a home shop....unless you are a Jim Becker or a Todd Burch.....no offense guys....just envious of your really nice tools. :)

Keep it simple and affordable and don't forget good hand tools. Power tools and tools in general do not a craftsman make.....it is skill and learned knowledge that makes a woodworker.


I wholly agree Dennis. I had much the same experience with high school shop. They were great tools but just way more then I could find at home and this kept me out of woodworking way too long.

Dean

[Todd Burch]

I took one year of woodshop - 10th grade. I loved it. I goofed off so much all I made all year was one bookcase - still have it.

I remember our shop. We had a 24" cast iron planer, probably a northfield or an oliver, Jointer was probably an 8" industrial machine. The table saw sucked. It was a 10" contractor model whose fence was so sloppy, you had to measure at both ends of the blade. A Edge sander, a drill press, a gigantic dust collector mounted outside, and pretty much all else was hand tools, aside from a random assortment of electric drills. No routers, no biscuit jointers, no shaper, no air tools (past a blow gun). There might have been a big radial arm or a miter saw - can't remember (1977/8 school year). Oh yeah, a lathe too.

Anyways, that was plenty to get introduced to woodworking. We learned what the tools were for, the safety, how to use them, and different things you could do with them. I remember one day the other students saw me pushing a board across the tablesaw diagonally, making some moulding, and they ran to the shop teacher ("Coach") to tell on me. He was dually impressed that I had figured that technique out!

Benchs with clamps are important, but 2 or 3 students per bench is fine. We had 4 students per bench. Every so often, each student took his turn in the "tool room", checking tools out to the other students for the class period. Good memories.

Even in today's economy, $100,000 is plenty to outfit a shop, especially if it is so small that you are limited to a 30" fence on a tablesaw.

Look at the warranties too.

[Daniel Rabinovitz]

Peter
Concerning a planer
At Woodland Hills High School (where I taught)
We had a 20 inch (if I remember correctly) planer
with a spiral cutting head. Installed in the head was 69 - 2 inch cutters.
These cutters could be rotated 3 additional times for a new cutting edge.
The planer also came with a grinder attachment that fastened to the top of the machine to regrind the cutters (from above).
Now your going to ask me for the manufacturer - that's where my brain is lost. I can't remember and have tried many times. I was using it for about four or five years - and can't remember.
I do remember working on it to replace the "jumped" bicycle chain, one time.

It's claim to fame, first and formost was that it was QUIET ! Real quiet - we (as teachers) were able to talk over the noise of the planer running with oak going through it.
Now - there was also many other reasons and good points for buying a $14,000.00 machine in 1989 or 1990, and you can start listing them but the quietness of the machine sold us.
Well, maybe this may help you to "look" for a spiral head planer.

[Christian Aufreiter]

Hi folks,

I also had woodworking at school and made good and bad experiences. First, don't buy low end tools. People tend to say "It's only a school, you don't have to make money with your stuff" but students can be pretty cruel to tools so durability should definitely be one of your priorities.
As for the large machinery, my school shop was not very well equipped. We had a simple Scheppach table saw, a Metabo band saw, a Metabo edge sander, a small dust collector and a few drill presses. We were not allowed to use the table saw. I'd pay lots of attention to dust collection, a real system would be nice. Probably it should allow to hook up hand-held power tools, too.
How about air tools, have you given a thought to them? Compressed air supplies might come in handy.
Personally, I wouldn't buy extremely fancy machinery such as a computerized Altendorf table saw. I'd definitely go for a high quality saw with a sliding table, something in the Rojek, Minimax, Hammer, Felder, ... range. Bandsaw, edge sander and drill presses are really useful and can be easily appreciated by the students. I question the necessity of a top-of-the-line jointer/planer. Of course, this depends on the material which will be used. If ply wood, MDF and such stuff will be used very often, a large jointer/planer with electronic adjustment is a waste of money IMO. Mitre saws and scroll saws are certainly very useful.
Hand held power tools:
A few drills, cordless drills (try to develop a "exchange system" for the batteries in order to make sure that there are always charged batteries. [At my school batteries were seldom charged because many students just took another cordless drill when the battery was empty]), jigsaws and sanders (dust collection!). The cordless drills should all be the same type or use the same batteries at least.
I'd also buy one or two circular saws (Festool gets my vote) and routers, I don't know about biscuit joiners. The circular saws will be primarily used to cut down sheets. I don't think that students will do this quite often so I think that one or two saws are sufficient. As the students won't take good care of the tools I recommend "industrial quality" (like Festool, Fein, Metabo, Mafell, only to name a few).
Hand tools and workbenches:
These are really the most important parts of the shop. A problem I faced was the height of the benches. There are smaller and taller students and it's not very ergonomic if all benches have the same height. Adjustable benches are desirable but probably too expensive. I also hated to work together with three guys at one table and to share even basic tools (hammer, screw driver, saws, squares, clamps). It's not that I didn't like my class mates but you never have enough space and always need the tool your colleague uses at the moment. So if it's possible buy/build one bench for every student and provide everyone with the basic hand tools. Hand tools for a school needn't be fancy (Bridge City, ...) but the must be good. And please never forget that the tools must be sharp in order to work properly. This was a common problem I experienced. We had some good Stubai chisels at school but the were often abused (to open paint cans, for example) never sharp.
The basic tools should be stored at the bench (drawers are nice IMO) this would make it easy to check if everything is complete. Other tools should be stored in portable "blocks" (as we call it - routed pieces which hold tools) in a separted locker (only teaches get the key and check it after every lesson). It's always astonishing how many drill bits, driving bits, saw blades, ... can be ruined. Buy enough of these things and make sure that there's a safe storage.

Hope this helps,

Christian

PS: I almost forgot the shop vacs.

[Ed Falis]

... What I would really consider is the guy selling the comlete shop on ebay for $45,000 including delivery. ...

John's right. That's an absolutely great deal for a special situation like what you're looking at here. But get a WoodRat, too, just for the fun of it. ;-)

- Ed

[mike malone]

I disagree with Steve and Jim, I would stay away from the high end Felders, etc... First the students are not going to see this stuff again, and you are going to eat up your budget real fast.

Gotta go with Dean and John's suggestions
Your original idea of PM66's and such is good. Nice to use stuff from US companies. In the end both US machines and Euro units just cut and shape wood. Nobody looking at 2 cuts from different machines can tell which machine performed which cut. Use machinery the students will be using at home or in the workplace. Save the "exotics" for the Volvo crowd.
Good luck shopping.
mike

[Jim Martin]

You might want to check with local industry, they may have some machinery they are not using that they would be willing to donate. Orthopedic companies are big in my area and they regularly donate cnc equipment to the local high school. Obviously it is a tax write off for them but it also helps keep up the pool of cnc trained workers. I can tell you that cnc is in high demand these days and a good cnc program will enrich the kids in your school that are not destined for college. Around here cnc operators get $18 to $25 an hour, programmers up to $75 an hour. We have companies from as far away as Texas advertising for workers trained in these skills in our local paper. Even if you have no local industry with cnc it not unheard of someone opening up a small machine shop and doing very well. I was watching an show on tv where they build these custom motorcycles. They went to a local guy for some custom wheels. He programmed his cnc and made them out of aluminum and they were beautiful. So my point is that your objective should be to give these kids some skills that might give them options after high school, not to make them home woodworking hobbyists.

One thing on your budget, keep in mind your objective is to educate kids safely. You want to buy the most safe reliable equipment you can afford. Use the budget to make a difference, any money you turn back will probably go into the athletic programs. Going in with a "minimal" attitude will doom the program to failure. It may be that you spend less than the $100,000, but you will sleep better at night if your attitude going in is kids first, budget cutting second.

[Pete Lamberty]

I feel that you should be very safety concious. Visit www.sawstop.com and check out their safety products. It seems like a good idea especially for a school shop. I am not in any way associated with this company. I just think it would be a good thing to use. Pete

[CPeter James]

I feel that you should be very safety concious. Visit www.sawstop.com and check out their safety products. It seems like a good idea especially for a school shop. I am not in any way associated with this company. I just think it would be a good thing to use. Pete


I have checked this out for my self and have mentioned it to them. I may look into it further. I would like to see how they compare to other 10" cabinet saws for my own use.

CPeter

[Pete Lamberty]

I may be wrong about this. But I am under the impression that you don't have to buy their saw. The system can be attached to any other manufacturers saws and also other power equipment. Pete

[CPeter James]

I may be wrong about this. But I am under the impression that you don't have to buy their saw. The system can be attached to any other manufacturers saws and also other power equipment. Pete


I don't think so yet. I just checked the web site and it was only available on their saw.

CPeter


http://www.sawstop.com/home.htm

[Rob Lee]

... would be to not overlook reasonable sharpening equipment. Everything I used in school was dull ... which probably made it all more dangerous.

Sharp tools are safer, easier to use, less frustrating, and produce better results....

Cheers -

Rob
(who'd probably still be sanding his Grade 8 projects.... :) )

[Paul Downes]

I would talk to the major tool manufacturers and have them put together a package quote. Let them know the competition is also 'bidding' on the deal. See what kind of discounts you might come up with. Many corporations give discounts to educational institutions, and it would be remiss to not take advantage. In the current economic climate I would think that there is vigorous competition for business. Also you might check out the post sale support from the different companies.
Remember that machine tools are no substitute for good shop fundamentals, and the mastering of hand tools and design. I would hope that there are plans to outfit the new shop with enough neaderthal tools. :) As for wood, check with local cities to see if they have a urban tree recycleing program. You just might find a gold mine for the school there.

[Chris Padilla]

... Even if you have no local industry with cnc it not unheard of someone opening up a small machine shop and doing very well. I was watching an show on tv where they build these custom motorcycles. They went to a local guy for some custom wheels. He programmed his cnc and made them out of aluminum and they were beautiful....
Jim,

That show is American Choppers: The Series and features Orange County Choppers of Rock Taven, NY. I love that show and catch it every Monday night on The Discovery Channel. It is true, they have designed some amazing wheels using CNC machines...really neat stuff.

It can be tough to decide what to teach! Safety around tools is very important but frankly, not that fun or interesting. I think kids should be taught on/introduced to as many different tools as possible. Get some high-end fancy-schmancy Euro tools and some good old basic ('merican) table saws, planers, jointers, bandsaws, and lathes. Also have a variety of hand tools on hand: scrapers, planes, chisels, hammers, mallets, clamps, etc. If there is space for a CNC machine, get one! The point is to at least show them the tools and the kids will naturally gravitate to what they find most interesting.

[Steve Rybicki]

It would seem to me that an "exploritory" class would be filled with students who will likely never have anything but a casual interest in woodworking. I think the equipment should be simple, practical and of a design they are likely to use in their future homes. I took a couple years of "shop" in junior high. Most of the projects were done with hand saws, hand planes and other hand tools. The basics learned here were more important to my long term interest in woodworking, then learning to use power tools. Proper technique using power tools was taught mostly by my father at home and by some books. It was good to learn, but it was not what sparked my interest in woodworking. That said, it sure is eay to send a 23" glued panel through a planer, when you're in a hurry. However, very few, if any of the students in such a class will ever have a tool capable of doing that in their home. In the same vein, I doubt they will have sliding table saws, 24" bandsaws, 2 horsepower drill presses, 12" jointers or 3 horsepower shapers. I think learning how to get beyond the limitations of typical homeowner machines, is as important as learning how to use them.

Good luck!

[Don Abele]

I've been following this thread because this is like everyone's dream - to equip a full shop all at once with 100K. A thought came to me today while I was reading a post - who is going to be teaching the shop class? Any thought as to getting their input as well? After all, they will have to teach on the equipment. Just a thought...

Be well,

Doc