Hand Plane Questions

[Greg Crawford]

I'm wanting to get back to more hand tools, and I thought I'd start with my Dad's old Stanley Handyman plane (I think it's comparable to a Stanley #4). I know it's not a great tool, but it was my Dad's, so I want to actually use it. With the limitations it has, can I expect decent results with it if it's tuned as well as it can be? I've lapped the sole and the frog, and got the chip breaker to fit well against the iron. Now, I'm wondering if the iron should be replaced. I included two pics to show where it looks like the chip breaker was wearing against the iron. It may be hard to tell from the pictures, but to get rid of all the marring, the iron would need about 1/8" taken off the length. The other option would be to put a slight bevel on the back of the iron. Are either of these acceptable, or is a new iron the only way out?

By the way, the neanderthal way is looking more attrative to me every day. Besides, a caveman eats when he's hungry and sleeps when he's tired. Nothing wrong with that!

Thanks,

Greg

[Clint Jones]

No. That should all dissapear when you flatten the back of the iron for sharpening. You need to get the back flat with a mirror finish before you sharpen the iron.

[Greg Crawford]

Clint,

I've flattened the back some, but those marks are pretty deep. The best I can tell, they go as deep as .006" as you get closer to the sharp edge. Isn't that an awful lot to have to flatten?

[Mike Henderson]

If the scratches are too deep to get out by polishing the back, you can put a slight back bevel on the iron to get them off the edge. Make the back bevel as "flat" as you can, maybe 2 to 3 degrees. The back bevel will raise the effective cutting angle from 45* to 47 or 48*. You probably won't notice the difference.

Remember that the scratches only matter if they are into the edge. If they are back from the edge, they don't matter.

Mike

[Larry Williams]

Just to be different.

I suggest you grind away the marring on the iron. There's one reason to have the back/face of a chisel or iron flat and your sharpening stones flat. That reason is repeatability. If you keep these critical surfaces flat, each sharpening actually does the prep work for subsequent sharpenings. It is the single way to make sharpening quick, easy and a pleasant but very short break in your work. If your sharpening isn't repeatable you start over every time you sharpen and sharpening becomes a hassle and something you avoid.

If you back bevel, as has been suggested, how are you going to repeat it? The "ruler trick" isn't accurate enough to repeat without removing more than should be needed each time you sharpen.

The quality of your edge depends entirely on the quality of both surfaces that make up that edge. Both have to be honed every time you sharpen. In fact, the face with the marring is the face that wears the most (in bevel down planes, like yours) and that wear is what makes for a dull edge. The wear has to be removed.

Back bevels also eliminate all possibility of a cap iron limiting tear out. To have any meaningful effect on tear out, the cap iron needs to be very close to the edge. So close that back bevels force you to set the cap iron too far from the edge. I'm not a big fan of cap irons but, if you're tuning and using one, you probably want all the advantage you can get from it.

Grind that mess of the face of your iron. Flatten your stones and then the face of that iron. Start right now to make sharpening fun and quick--you'll enjoy your tools more and be more successful with them.

[Greg Crawford]

Thanks for all the input. I have spent several hours (again) today and got almost all the marring and scratching out. I feel like I could beat Popeye at arm wrestling!

Since Larry brought up the subject of sharpening, thought I'd also ask advice there. I'm looking at the Veritas MK.II honing guide and a course (220-250), medium (800-1500) and fine (6000) waterstone. Sound reasonable?

[Ian Smith]

Greg,

I have a Veritas MkII honing guide and the set of 220, 1000, 4000 and 8000 grit Norton water stones.

The Veritas MkII is a great little unit which I'm sure you'd be happy with.

I wouldn't buy a course water stone (220 grit) if I were you and I won't be replacing mine if I ever drop it or it wears out. I haven't used it for ages. I gave up on it because it wears so quickly and takes a lot of work to keep flat. If you want to grind something by hand quickly I reckon you'd be better off using some sand paper on a sheet of glass or spend the extra on a course diamond plate.

If you are going to use micro or secondary bevels on your blades, which the Veritas MkII easily allows you to do, then in my opinion you can skip the 4000 stone as well. You just use the 1000 grit stone to shape the primary bevel and then jump to the 8000 grit stone for the secondary bevel.

In the end you will want the back of your blades to be at least as polished as the ones below and you will want your secondary bevel (8000 grit stone) to be a mirror polish as well.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g190/mirboo/Sharpening/small_PS_IMG_3326.jpg (http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g190/mirboo/Sharpening/PS_IMG_3326.jpg)

[Larry Williams]

After making a big deal about repeatability, I'm going to kind of contradict myself. I don't like honing guides. They're only possibly useful for the simplest of straight edge sharpening. They don't work with profiled tools like carving tools and molding planes. You really need to freehand sharpen to advance in woodworking and adding extra paraphernalia only adds time and complicates things.

The other problem is that honing guides will tend to encourage people to focus on the bevels of their tools. Bevels come along just fine without much work if the backs/faces of edge tools are flat. I think the key to efficient sharpening is maintaining a flat face or back. I think the money spent on gimmicks and paraphernalia is better spent on a good grinder and dressing tool.

I don't like most water stones because they wear too fast to allow maintaining important flat surfaces. The ceramic water stones from Shapton may address this and the glass stones seem reasonably priced. I haven't really used them so I don't know about them for sure.

I prefer a medium India stone and a translucent hard Arkansas stone for honing. I use an extra-coarse DMT diamond stone to maintain the oil stones and a strop to finish off edges.

BTW, properly maintained, your Stanley Handyman plane will be quite useful. With the added benefit of its sentimental value it will be a good addition to your shop.

[Greg Crawford]

Thanks Ian and Larry. Some great information to chew on.

I got the back of my blade nice, but it's not polished. Looks like I still have a lot more excersize ahead of me.

I too like to freehand sharpen, but I can't maintain a real straight line for a good bevel on longer edges. A 1/2" chisel is about the longest I can do. Beyond that, I wind up with multiple "micro bevels". I was wondering about keeping the stones flat for use with a guide, however. I guess I also have some more thinking to do. I'll have plenty of time while I'm working on the back of that blade.

Once again, thanks to all.

Greg

[Robert Rozaieski]

After making a big deal about repeatability, I'm going to kind of contradict myself. I don't like honing guides. They're only possibly useful for the simplest of straight edge sharpening. They don't work with profiled tools like carving tools and molding planes. You really need to freehand sharpen to advance in woodworking and adding extra paraphernalia only adds time and complicates things.

Hi Larry! I don't think you are contradicting yourself at all. Repeatability is the exact reason I gave up my honing guide and forced myself to learn to hone freehand. In my experience, when I was using the honing guide (Veritas MK-I), it was very difficult to repeat the bevel angle that I set the last time I honed. However, with a hollow grind and honing freehand, you can feel when the bevel is flat on the stone, hence repeatability is easy (and important to avoid a multifaceted bevel). I don't microbevel so there is never any guessing as to whether the bevel angle is correct or consistent. It always is. And I hone more frequently as it takes me much less time since I'm not fussing around setting up the honing guide. Just take the tool to the stone, rub the bevel a dozen or so times on each stone, strop and get back to work. It probably took me longer to write this than it takes me to hone an edge.

As for the Handyman plane Greg, hone the iron up and use that baby. It will work just fine. If the iron won't hold an edge, replace it and use that baby. The plane will work just fine. You should be proud to own and use it.

Bob

[Robert Rozaieski]

I too like to freehand sharpen, but I can't maintain a real straight line for a good bevel on longer edges. A 1/2" chisel is about the longest I can do. Beyond that, I wind up with multiple "micro bevels".

Greg,
I am a relatively new freehand honer (maybe 9-12 months) but I have no difficulty keeping a straight line even on my 2 5/8" jointer plane iron. I highly recommend you hollow grind your primary bevels prior to honing the edge. The hollow grind allows very positive registration of the very edge of the tool on the stone and prevents rocking and the resulting multiple micro bevels you mention. I too had this difficulty before I tried hollow grinding. Once I re-ground the bevels, there was a world of difference. I don't use a micro bevel (secondary bevel) at all. Just hone the hollow ground bevel right on the flat stone and the stone will only hone the two extreme edges of the hollow grind. If you are hesitant about grinding, just try one tool. I gaurantee you will notice a difference. And skip the secondary bevel. In my experience, it's not necessary when you hollow grind and just compliates the registration of the tool the next time you hone.

[Greg Crawford]

Robert,

It has been fun working on my Dad's old tool. If this iron doesn't hold an edge, I'd have to go to carbide. This steel is HARD! I did get the back semi-polished and tried a free-hand bevel. It did OK, but mainly I could see that the plane will do a good job in many cases. Of course, now I have a larger taste for hand tools (I started using a hand scraper about 5 years ago, and I reach for it often), so I see more planes in my future.

Everyone has been great with all the help. I just hope I can share some useful tips for others to help "pay it forward". I can't even hope to be able to pay back.

Thanks,

Greg