Auction Bidders Out of Control

[Richard Niemiec]

Just surfed over to that well known auction site, and someone just paid over $100 for a Type 20 (e.g., blue body) #3C, which is not even identified as having been made in the US. Here's the number; 320122034716

The seller must be jumping for joy. You can get two type 13 or 14s for such money and have a superior tool. It just might be time for me to post those 3 Stanley Handyman #4s I have laying about that folks give me.

RN

[Clint Jones]

I have a type 13 No.3 with the original decal in fine condition I would let go for that price

[David Weaver]

They're making it really hard for me to get chisels for a decent price, too. It seems dumb that I can get new high-quality chisels for less.

Not to mention what the antique stores want to list things for if someone on ebay can get $25 for PS&W chisels - antique stores go for $35-50 then. I can get a new LN chisel for that, but the whole point of getting the old chisels as users was to not have to pay that much in the first place.

[Jim Grill]

I agree. It's getting a bit ridiculous. I guess folks just get wrapped up the action and competition of bidding and bid right on past the reasonable value of something.

I really dig old Stanley socket chisels. I could hone them all day long. :)

I have a few large ones and really want a complete set, but folks bid to no end on them. see 290124873055...unbelievable!

I guess if I really want them I'll have to pay for them.

[Wilbur Pan]

Of course, one positive outcome is that if the old tools become more expensive, and more people buy tools from Lie-Nielsen et al., then the new tool companies stay in business, which might even attract more tool startups, resulting in more choice in tools for us all.

As a tangent, I'm a big classical music fan, and one thing that I saw happen in the 80's and 90's when CD's hit the scene was that as old recordings were remastered and rereleased they were priced less than new recordings. As a result, the development of new artists started to slow down. In the short run, it was great for the classical music buying public, since remastered old recordings could be gotten for cheap, but in the long run it was probably not the best move, as since then the overall choice in recordings has gone down.

In fact, one editorial I read made the argument that for the long term health of the classical music business, new releases should be priced cheaper than older recordings. I think that might have been more right than I initially thought.

[Jim Grill]

In fact, one editorial I read made the argument that for the long term health of the classical music business, new releases should be priced cheaper than older recordings. I think that might have been more right than I initially thought.

I'd love to get a new Lie-Nielsen for less than an old Stanley :D

I know what you're saying though, and agree. The people willing to pay high prices for old quality tools could be buying new tools from new manufacturers. Much of the high quality new stuff is a bit too pricey for most folks though.

A little friendly competition might bring those prices down a bit. The only draw back to that is that they could get too competitive and start looking at ways to make the tools cheaper. Then we'll all be trying to buy old ones again! ;)

[Mike Henderson]

I watch auctions of old tools - don't buy much because I have pretty much all I need - and it looks to me like collectors drive the high prices. Whenever I see a tool selling for a really high price, the tool is always in great condition, and if it has a box the price really goes up.

When it's a tool that will work well but has some defects (like maybe a tote with a crack that can be glued easily), the price never goes very high. And often, the tool selling for a high price is not original - the seller discloses that s/he fixed things up, including using paint in place of Japanning - and still it receives bids that are way beyond what I think is reasonable. Maybe buyers don't want to clean up a tool themselves, or don't know how.

Anyway, the message I take away from that is to clean up a tool and make it look "pretty" before putting it up for sale.

Mike

[Ryan Cathey]

I just hope they do this for something I have for sale (I won't disclose that here...that's like cheating lol). I've got 17 watchers and only two bid. This could get interesting.

[Mike Henderson]

I just hope they do this for something I have for sale (I won't disclose that here...that's like cheating lol). I've got 17 watchers and only two bid. This could get interesting.
Nothing wrong with posting the auction number. There may be people here who would like to bid on the tool.

Mike

[Ryan Cathey]

Auction Removed By Op

[Jim Grill]

When it's a tool that will work well but has some defects (like maybe a tote with a crack that can be glued easily), the price never goes very high. And often, the tool selling for a high price is not original - the seller discloses that s/he fixed things up, including using paint in place of Japanning - and still it receives bids that are way beyond what I think is reasonable. Maybe buyers don't want to clean up a tool themselves, or don't know how.
Mike

You're right. I only bid on old tools that I'll actually use and often bid on the ones with a little rust or some cracks. Most of my tools have cracks and rust anyway. :) I don't care what the handles or the finish look like. As long as they can be sharpened and used.

[Clint Jones]

Nothing wrong with posting the auction number. There may be people here who would like to bid on the tool.

Mike
They had to remove a post earlier because someone was advertising their item for sale. I really dont think it is appropriate to post an auction number if the auction is currently running. I happen to be bidding on the item posted in this thread, probably wont bid again now. Sorry if I sound rude but I believe it is inappropriate. just my 2 cents.

[Mike Henderson]

They had to remove a post earlier because someone was advertising their item for sale. I really dont think it is appropriate to post an auction number if the auction is currently running. I happen to be bidding on the item posted in this thread, probably wont bid again now. Sorry if I sound rude but I believe it is inappropriate. just my 2 cents.
Okay - sorry. I didn't see any problem but I understand your logic.

Mike

[Clint Jones]

Okay - sorry. I didn't see any problem but I understand your logic.

Mike
Mike no big deal I probably wouldnt have won the auction anyways considering how many watchers there are. I believe you are correct when you said that bidders will bid on a shiny tool and bid high. There is a seller davy something or other that buys no.4's no.5's and other common planes for $10 all day on ebay and polishes them up shiny and sharpens them. The planes end up selling for $50 sometimes even $100. I think it is ridiculous personally.

[Terry Bigelow]

I guess everyone has thier own idea's about what a tool is worth. I think there's a lot of factors that make people spend what they spend. Certainly some of this is "heat of the moment" buying but I agree some don't want to take the time or energy to fix one up. This is evidenced by posts on this very site, nothing wrong with that either. Other's have the money and want the shiny pretty ones. Personally I look for the ones that are rusty and dirty that fetch a far lower price. There's always plenty of those too!

[Clint Jones]

This is when things get out of control
66016

[Ryan Cathey]

Mike no big deal I probably wouldnt have won the auction anyways considering how many watchers there are.


I removed the auction number. BTW Clint it's up to 17 watchers now. As a relative ebay newbie I'm sitting there looking at the number 17 thinking, "Stop just watching and bid!!!" lol

[David Carroll]

Clarence Blanchard of the Fine Tool Journal spoke a couple of weeks ago at the ATTIC (Antique Tools and Trades in Connecticut) meeting. He was talking about the old tool market and basically said the same thing.

It's all about condition condition condition.

It's the LN tools on the 'Bay that go for a couple of dollars shy or proud of the price of new, that puzzle me.

I think people get all caught up in the bidding and good sense suffers.

David Carroll

[Roger Bell]

I recall having a conversation with Mr. Blanchard two summers ago where he opined that it was the users, rather than the collectors, that were really driving the market. I agree.

Sure, it is the collectors and the budding collectors and perhaps a few well-heeled user folks fighting over the primo conditon or rare stuff, but it is the ordinary Users (such as us folks right here on the various Boards) and the very recent renaissance in hand tools that is pushing the prices for the common stuff up to where where they are. The prices would not be where there are if plenty of people were not willing to pay. And, truth is, there really aren't that many collectors compared to users or "accumulators". Individual internet auctions are often silly anomolies and do not always represent or prove much of anything. Taken as an amalgam and averaged out over a couple of months or so, the auctions probably do serve as a reasonable indicator of value.

Remember also that interest in particular items is cyclical with ups and downs. I have witnessed this time and again in the eight years I have been a "member" of ebay and in my much-longer term of interest in hand tool WW. Sadly, prices are also subject to internet and magazine writer group-think. A good example is the rage over Stanley 750's/720's of the past year. Someone well known wrote them up and then another WW pundit praised them while probably while drunk at a party and then it got repeated about 800 times on the Boards.....and the next thing you know..........

Truth is is that the 750's are no better at holding an edge or in balance or in any other aspect than many other chisels of their era....but the hype is apparently taken seriously enough to create a demand and a price well above equally good if not better available vintage chisels.

The same thing happens with new tools. About 9-10 years ago, one of the rags starting promoting Marples Blue Chips, and then all the rags did...and everybody then wanted them. Now, you can hardly give them away as used set, can you?

[Mike Henderson]

I removed the auction number. BTW Clint it's up to 17 watchers now. As a relative ebay newbie I'm sitting there looking at the number 17 thinking, "Stop just watching and bid!!!" lol
What you may find is that some of the watchers wait until the last few seconds to make their bid (or use a sniping service to do the same thing). There's no reason to bid early - it only hurts you by giving information to competing bidders. Even if you bid very high, high enough that no one is likely to over bid you, you may find that someone probes your bid by making "short bids" like $49.95" instead of $50. They look to see if your "bid" (actually bid by eBay) is less than the minimum increment (so if the minimum increment is $2.50 but your bid comes out only $0.67 more than their bid). If so, they know they have discovered you max bid and they still haven't committed to purchase. If they decide to over bid you, they'll do it at the last second, and if they don't over bid you, they have the satisfaction that they made you pay the max to get the item.

So the lesson is - don't bid until the last second and bid the max you're willing to pay. Or use a sniping service to make the bid for you (I use hammersnipe - three free bids per week).

Mike

[Martin Cash]

This is quite a collection.
Interestingly, Patrick Leach lists the 5 1/4C as Stanley's rarest plane.
Yet there doesn't seem to be the interest in it that one sees in many other Stanley planes. Ebay prices often reflect this.
Puzzled
MC:confused::confused::confused:







This is when things get out of control
66016

[Michael Schwartz]

I have a type 18 6C that I only paid 40 bucks for, Why would anybody pay a hundred bucks for a type 20 piece of junk 4C :eek: , unless maybe you had every other plane Stanley made :D I have a Stanely #5 size cheapo jack plane (not marked defiance, or handyman) I would be glad to let go for a hundred bucks, and infact compared to a 4 would be a deal.

[Wilbur Pan]

So the lesson is - don't bid until the last second and bid the max you're willing to pay. Or use a sniping service to make the bid for you (I use hammersnipe - three free bids per week).
Hi Mike,

Although it probably isn't a good idea to give information on eBay bidding to someone I might wind up bidding against one day ;) , you might want to check out JBidwatcher (http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=3914). It's a Java based program that you can set up to snipe for you. It will sync up with any auction you are watching in your My eBay list. All you need to do is leave the program running on a computer that has an internet connection. And it's a free open source program that runs on Windows and Macs.

I use it for eBay auctions primarily to keep me from getting caught up in auction fever. I decide on what I would pay for the item, set up the bid, and leave it alone until after the auction is over.

Wilbur

[Clint Jones]

Ebay now has a free service called Bidding Assistant. It is the same as all the pay services just free and provided by ebay. It can be found on the left hand tab of your my ebay page under bidding. I guess ebay figured that bid sniping will drive prices up making them more money so they added the service.

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks for the pointer, Wilbur. I'll check it out.

Clint - can you set up Bidding Assistant to only place your bid in the last few seconds of the auction? I always though it would bid for you whenever someone placed a higher bid, but below your max - but at any time during the auction life. The reason for the sniping services is to not give any information to other bidders - to effectively change the bidding into a "sealed bid" process where other bidders do not have the opportunity to react to your bid.

Mike

[Glenn Crocker]

I also suspect that users play a significant role in driving prices up.
I realize this thread pertains more to ridiculous prices for tools found in extraordinary condition, but I suspect many buyers are in the same boat with me, buying useable or restorable tools on evilbay at higher prices than many of you have to pay locally.
A good many of us users live in areas where old tools rarely are found at all, let alone in either useable or restorable condition. When you factor in fuel and accomodations for one or two days’ travel to a region with better pickings, premium but not ridiculous evilbay prices seem a bit more justifiable.
I don’t like being part of the evilbay problem but don’t see a viable alternative, aside from using other online vendors who don’t often have what I am looking for.
And then there is the question of reasonably priced new tools that live up to their hype...........
The solution may be to quit buying wood and working it until my budget can accomodate the good new stuff - LN, etc. ;-)

[Clint Jones]

I would rather spend my money on wood than tools, I already have enough tools, you can never have enough wood!

[Gary Curtis]

Did any of you notice the Stanley No. 1 plane (mint in the box) that sold for $5800 on flea-Bay 3 weeks ago? Now, it was in suitable condition for a glass display case. But it is kind of scary.

As an antidote to the creeping pessimism that overtakes one who regularly cruises eBay, last summer I found the proverbial 'fishing hole' in the middle the stream. Everyone in the world must have been on vacation for those 7 days.

I won the bidding on a brand new, unused in the box Lamello Biscuit Jointer for $282 (value $760). And two days later a Festool rotex sander, near new demo model for $264. Go figure. It sure helps to know prices, know your budget, and know your own tolerances. Sorry, I know that both tools have tails.

Gary Curtis

[Mike Henderson]

I agree that you can get good deals on eBay if you know your merchandise and wait for a deal. But the advantage of eBay for a seller is that your item gets exposure to a lot of potential buyers, some of whom might really want the item and be willing to bid high for it.

I understand Glenn's upset at the prices that some of the items sell for, but that's the market at work. In an ideal, efficient market, an item sells to the person who wants it the most and is willing to pay the most. Those who place a lower value on the item don't buy. It's simple supply and demand and it works for both the buyer and the seller. The buyer is able to find the item s/he wants and the seller gets the best price possible.

A more regional market is not as efficient because some potential buyers are not able to participate and the seller does not get the best price for his/her goods.

Mike

[Gary Curtis]

Mike,

You hit the nail on the head. The single factor which justifies a high tool price on eBay is a buyer who - figuratively, or truly- lives in Fargo North Dakota. In the dead of winter.

All the wares of the world are displayed right on his desk top. In outfitting my new shop, starting with a lone Stanley No.5, I learned real quick about pricing. Fortunately, I resided in Los Angeles, a major industrial watershed. A friend informed me about the Old Galoot network. Through him I found the old tool swapmeets where EVERYTHING was available. Want a Stanley No. 2 in great condition for $200, a regular there had 8 of them. Pristine.

Prices ran about 40% of fleaBay. No shipping involved, and contrary to the distraught widow on eBay, disposing of her recently deceased husband's treasures, the seller at these meets truly knows the merchandise. Many eBay descriptions are ill-informed, and thus misleading.

Now that I'm living in a tiny mountain town, isolated, eBay is more attractive to me for the access it provides. Hey, I retired from FedEx so I know what logistics is all about. eBay overcomes any and all geographical barriers. If that strength means nothing to you, watch out and shop elsewhere for your old tools.

Gary Curtis

[David Weaver]

I removed the auction number. BTW Clint it's up to 17 watchers now. As a relative ebay newbie I'm sitting there looking at the number 17 thinking, "Stop just watching and bid!!!" lol

Ryan - I'm a little late responding to this, but when I used to collect guitars (still do, I just don't do much buying or selling), there were some of the more expensive types that I sold that would get over a hundred watchers (by more expensive, I mean over $3,000). They'd get bid up quickly, and sometimes there'd be a huge blob of watchers, and as the seller, I was giddy. A couple of times, all of those watchers were there, and the guitar wouldn't get touched for the entire last day, and I'd be left sitting there feeling let down.

The more you sell stuff on there, the weirder the patterns will seem - especially if you sell something that there isn't any more of on the bay - then you get interest early and often, and it's anyone's guess what will happen. If you sell something common, though - you get a lot of watchers, and if you're lucky, two people will duke it out the last couple of minutes.

[David Weaver]

I thought I had everything sealed up last night when I went to bed. I had a $40 max bid on a very plain disston D-8, and a $20 bid on a rough no-name framing chisel - 1 1/4".

I woke up this morning, and I lost both of those auctions by $1.

On the flip side, I got a very nice stanley marking gauge for $9.99, and two very long PS&W firmer chisels for about $16 each. I guess you can never tell what's going to get someone's interest on there. I thought for sure that nobody was going to outbid me on the D-8, though.

I think I'm going to watch for auctions where there's a saw with lots of surface rust, but the seller describes it as being razor sharp with all of the teeth. The "pretty tool" bidders will maybe leave that alone, and I'll just put it in the electrolysis tub.

[Clint Jones]

David, I won a type 17 No.4 in nice shape last night for $5.00 I was suprised I didnt get outbid on that one. I think the D-8 definately went too high.

[David Martino]

post by Gary Curtis:
Fortunately, I resided in Los Angeles, a major industrial watershed. A friend informed me about the Old Galoot network. Through him I found the old tool swapmeets where EVERYTHING was available. Want a Stanley No. 2 in great condition for $200, a regular there had 8 of them. Pristine.


Really? Are these a secret, or would you care to pass them on? I live in LA and have been looking for a local source of good used tools. I've used ebay but have noticed the same problem this thread is about, have had better luck with a couple of on-line sellers (check out Walt at Brass City). But I'm jealous of all those rust belt folks whose garage sales are paved with pristine 4 1/2s.

[Gary Curtis]

David M.

No secret. Call Anderson Plywood (on Sepulveda Blvd) in Culver City. 310 397-8229 and ask for the schedule. There is one coming up in August. Held four times a year.

People will arrive in the dark, well before 7am, to get to the goodies. But a lot of sellers don't arrive until about 8. But don't dawdle.

Having just moved to the far north in California, I found two such meets - one in Sacramento and one in Sonoma - with just a few phone calls and emails.

Happy tool hunting.

Gary

[David Weaver]

I agree that you can get good deals on eBay if you know your merchandise and wait for a deal. But the advantage of eBay for a seller is that your item gets exposure to a lot of potential buyers, some of whom might really want the item and be willing to bid high for it.

I understand Glenn's upset at the prices that some of the items sell for, but that's the market at work. In an ideal, efficient market, an item sells to the person who wants it the most and is willing to pay the most. Those who place a lower value on the item don't buy. It's simple supply and demand and it works for both the buyer and the seller. The buyer is able to find the item s/he wants and the seller gets the best price possible.

A more regional market is not as efficient because some potential buyers are not able to participate and the seller does not get the best price for his/her goods.

Mike

It's convenience for us, the buyer, too, Mike. I would probably never have been able to get a Stanley 55 without the bay - because I wouldn't have ever been comfortable figuring out what they're worth - and around here, things at flea markets are always tagged twice what they'll sell for on Ebay - at least on the few flea markets I've been to. There are situations where you'll find a "deal"-making seller, or someone who is selling off parts of an estate, but it's more often a mind-numbing long list of items that are tagged far higher than what they're worth.

In a week, I was able to see a few sell, see what they were worth, read what to look for, and to some extent be able to see a variety on ebay and earlier today win one. Now, instead of looking for the next 5 years, if all goes as planned, I can get a book and start playing with the plane in a week or two.

I have the chance of getting burned, but I paid half what the item would cost at a flea market, so if there is something broken on beyond repair, I can relist the parts on ebay and get rid of all of them in a short period of time.

[David DeCristoforo]

Auctions are like that. That's why they are so popular. People get caught up. I went to an auction of a large furniture mfgr. that was closing and I was blown away by what guys were paying for stuff. They just got caught up in the whole bidding competition thing and lost all sense of reason. There was a copy lathe I wanted and I figured two grand would be fair considering it's age and condition. But the bidding pushed it right through the roof and some guy ended up really overpaying. But he was busting because he "won" the bid! Common sense seems to go out the window at auctions whether they are "live" or "online".

[David Martino]

Gary C.,

Thanks for the tip - I've been to Anderson but didn't know about the tool sale. I'll check 'em out.

[Al Mock MD]

It seems that when I get a hankering for a specific plane, the Ebay Gods sense it and the bids enter the stratosphere. First it was edge-trimmers, then bullnoses, then scraper, then carriage, etc. Now it seems the wide-body 1/2's are the plane du jour. Like the author, I saw a late-type flat four bidding within $20 of a 604 the other day! Then I saw a Handyman 4 sell for $60'ish. Just to warn everyone, I currently want a 608...plan for bids in the $500 range.

[Terry Bigelow]

Just to warn everyone, I currently want a 608...plan for bids in the $500 range.

$500.00 range?! Just to clarify, you are looking for one in REAL nice condition, right? But if not, $500 is high. I know it varies from person to person on collecting, using or rehabbing a plane, but a fairly beat up 608 with the important parts intact (maybe rusty though) can be had for far less. I got one a couple of months ago for $120.00. It was pretty rusty and needed a new iron and tote but was good aside from that. I think it's a matter of just waiting for the right deal. Personally I looked for quite some time before finding the one I did. I guess not everyone likes to wait?

[James Mittlefehldt]

I think that Al was speaking with his tongue planted firmly in his cheek Terry, I don't thnk he meant he would pay $500 for a plane that could be had new, ie Lie Nielson for less.

[Jon Toebbe]

Common sense seems to go out the window at auctions whether they are "live" or "online".
Ain't that the truth. My "strategy" for eBay: bid early, bid my maximum bid, and then (and here's the important part) WALK AWAY.

Let's say I am willing (just to pull an example out of the air) to pay $50 for a Stanley Bailey #7 jointer plane in reasonably good condition. Cracked castings are bad; rust is no big deal; a solid user is all I care about. After some searching and browsing I watch all the possible matches, then bid $50 on the one that ends soonest. Then (and here's the most important part), I WALK AWAY until after the auction is closed.

I delete every histrionic "you've been outbid!" email generated by eBay without reading it, and without allowing it to affect my blood pressure. When the dust has settled I check in. Oops, I got outbid by $0.50 in the last 30 seconds of the auction. Next on my list of auctions, another nearly identical plane, in my price range. Hey, and this one looks like it's in a little bit better condition, too. I bid $50 and (and here's the most important part) I WALK AWAY. It doesn't typically take more than three or four tries before I've got what I'm looking for, for a fraction of what I was willing to pay.

I realized, after watching things on eBay for a while, this important lesson: no matter what the seller says in his posting, nothing is so rare/unique/one-of-a-kind that I can't afford to watch three or four other people walk away with similar items for $0.50 more than I wanted to pay. There's ALWAYS another, indistinguishable, and often better preserved example for less. I don't REALLY need it RIGHT NOW -- or I wouldn't be shopping for it on eBay.

Being a teacher, I'm pretty cash-poor when it comes to funding my hobbies. Nevertheless, I've managed to assemble a decent assortment of very usable handplanes for less than half what I'd originally budgeted. The rest I spent on wood. :) The only cost is time -- and I'm patient (cheap) enough to wait out the collectors and "just say no!" to the feeding frenzy.

[David Weaver]

I just contributed more to the problem this morning. I have been trying to get a #79 or a 98 and 99 pair for a while, and every time I put in a max bid, someone will beat it by $2 when I'm not able to follow the end of the auction.

Case and point - over the weekend, I put a $100 max bid on a nice #79 - I wasn't able to watch the end of the auction, and it went for $102.50.

A couple of weeks ago, I put a $75 bid on a decent #99, and someone ended up buying it for about $80.

This morning, I got on, and someone had a 98 and 99 pair, and they started the bidding low with a buy-it-now of $155. I contemplated running in circles again for a while by watching the auction and putting in a reasonable bid, but I ended up just hitting the buy-it-now. Probably ruined the day of the other person bidding on it, as well as any watchers, but life's tough. I can't spend the next 30 years trying to get one when I want to use it for something I'll be working on in about three weeks.

I guess this is how prices go up. If the things book at $100 or something in used non-matched pair condition - i don't care - I've had so much trouble finding them elsewhere that I'll pay.

[James Mittlefehldt]

If you were willing to pay that much for a used pair David, why not buy the Lie Neilsons for 35 dollars more. They would be brand new and probably better than the old Stanleys which might require a new blade anyway.

That is unless you just prefer the older stuff, in which case more power to you.

[David Weaver]

James - I go back and forth on the old vs. new stuff. Sometimes, if there isn't a real improvement between the two, I'll go for the old stuff.

I think those planes were sweetheart (I should really know given I dropped the cash for them), and the blades were pretty full. I've had good luck with the sharpenability and edge holding of the sweetheart era blades - at least so far.

[Al Mock MD]

(Nod to J. Mittlefehldt)... I've never had much luck with the delivery of sarcasm. In my opinion, the 608 is worth every penny of $120. But that being said, you're approaching the price of a new bronze LN. Well, coming closer at least. I agree with both of the kind souls above and wish you great shavings.

[Al Mock MD]

I'm very torn in this circumstance. I love the charm, history and patina of an old Stanley. I also love the chase...albeit less so lately (for the reasons you describe). When I bring a rusty old man into the shop & allow him to recapture his glory days, I feel a great sense of pride...like all is right in the Universe. However, the silky sheen of an ultra-high-tolerance LN bronze will nearly jelly my legs. I love planes, I fear to pathologic proportions. My Mother once asked me, "how many do you need?" I stammered and said, "what?"