MDF Cabinet doors

[Andrew Harver]

I hope I am in the right place, please be kind, I'm a newbie. I am thinking of refacing my kitchen cabinets and would like to know if a 1 piece MDF is good/not as good as a 5-piece poplar with MDF center.

I have received conflicting info on both and I guess my main concern is, does the MDF chip or warp easily? Are they fine for cabinet doors?

Thanks,
Andrew

[David Weaver]

MDF shouldn't warp if it's covered and sealed correctly - at least it hasn't in my experience.

* It will chip at the edges if it doesn't have a protective layer.
* It's hard on tooling if you're going to cut it and use a router on it
* It's cheap, and easy to shape
* It makes very heavy cabinet doors - the larger the cabinets, the more you'll notice.
* Hinges - like amerock hinges that require three holes (one large for the hinge body, and two small holes for stability - work fine in the doors and don't come out, even though MDF doesn't hold screws as well as wood. I wouldn't test that theory by getting hinges that don't anchor themselves pretty well into the MDF.
* "raised panel" style MDF doors for us were always just a flat piece of 3/4" with a groove routed into them to make them a raised panel style. I'm assuming you aren't going to try to assemble a raised panel door rails and styles using the MDF.

When i worked in a cabinet factory in college, all of the "white" thermofoil doors we made were MDF core. I don't recall ever hearing any complaints about them (except from us, because the doors with thermofoil are heavy and hard to carry in pairs - they slip apart).

What do you plan on doing to finish the outsides of them? The poplar with MDF center sounds like a good compromise.

Now I'll step aside and wait to see what the experts say.

[Scott Loven]

Are you buying or making these doors? Painted or plastic coated MDF is fine if you like the look.
Scott

[Andrew Harver]

What do you plan on doing to finish the outsides of them? The poplar with MDF center sounds like a good compromise.

Now I'll step aside and wait to see what the experts say.

I am planning on painting them white to match the cabinets. It's an old house and I will not be in it forever, but weant to spruce up the kicthen and get it ready for selling.

Are the 3/4" MDF significantly heavier than the same 3/4" in wood?


Are you buying or making these doors? Painted or plastic coated MDF is fine if you can stand the look.
Scott

I am actually torn between the 2. Being that I am fairly inexperienced, I will probably purchase. I've recently (within the past 3 years) done more and more woodworking/household projects (tongue & groove wall paneling, laminate foors, and most recently rebuilt my deck), but this may be over my head.

I only have hand power tools and a chop/mitre saw. It seems to do these corectly, I would need a table saw and table router. I'm always ready for a new challenge, but I would also like to have these installed before the next ice age.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Scott Loven]

Why not just paint the existing cabinets? I did this in my first house - went from dark dirty wood to white - made a hugh difference in the look and only cost about $50. What do the doors you have now look like?
Scott

[mike roe]

I used MDF panels and poplar rails and stiles for these doors. You will need to size the mdf in the areas that you raise or cut. Use 1 part glue and 1 part water. Brush it on and let it dry then you can "sand" that area. Use a good primer and youll never know theres a mdf panel in there.
Note: the pic is early on when i was fitting the doors - they are only primed and the walls are not done.

[Andrew Harver]

Why not just paint the existing cabinets? I did this in my first house - went from dark dirty wood to white - made a hugh difference in the look and only cost about $50. What do the doors you have now look like?
Scott

A couple of the doors are beginning to split rather badly and have warped over time to where either the bottom closes and the top does not fully or vice versa.

If I could somehow find the doors that match, I would just replace the ones that need it, but after 20+ years, that's going to be very difficult at best.

I am going to paint the cabinet part, but feel I am stuck on the doors. So I am looking for the most cost effective way to replace.

[Andrew Harver]

I used MDF panels and poplar rails and stiles for these doors. You will need to size the mdf in the areas that you raise or cut. Use 1 part glue and 1 part water. Brush it on and let it dry then you can "sand" that area. Use a good primer and youll never know theres a mdf panel in there.
Note: the pic is early on when i was fitting the doors - they are only primed and the walls are not done.

These look really good. Do you think the poplar rails and stiles are the way to go over over a 1 piece MDF or was that just your preference?

Thanks,
Andrew

[mike roe]

thanks! this is technically my first project.

i did that because i really didnt want to go through setting up a way to plunge rout into the mdf... Plus i can use the bit set for other things in the house. I was thinking of doing one piece mdf... Freud makes a nice looking provinical router bit for plunge cuts that gives the look of a raised panel. But you can buy those types of mdf doors unfinished pretty cheap - ive seen as low as 24 bucks a door. Plus im doing this to sell the place in a couple years - so i wanted the 5 piece look, which in my opinion you cant get from the one piece doors.
However, after dealing with MDF dust i never ever want to have to make panels from it again. raining the panels makes loads of sawdust but with MDF its this really nasty fine powder.

one other little hint - the 1x3 poplar at lowes is perfect for the rails and stiles - i know its lowes, but all i had to do was cut it to length and rout the profiles... 1x3 is really 3/4x2.5 which happens to be the perfect size for the rails and stiles i wanted.

hope this helps ill post more pics when done - I just finished a base cabinet with a butcher block top that needs to be installed.

[Andrew Harver]

That great info. Thanks. So after you rout the profiles and cut the poplar to size are you joining them with glue, biscuits or both? Or some other method?

[mike roe]

All you need is glue as the cope and stick joints of the rails and stiles have a good amount of surface area.

[Scott Loven]

You can do the 5 piece doors with all MDF if you want to buy the R&S bit set. Like mike said though, its a lot of dust, do it out side!

[Andrew Harver]

Awesome, thanks for all of your help!!

[Jay Keller]

I used MDF panels and poplar rails and stiles for these doors. You will need to size the mdf in the areas that you raise or cut. Use 1 part glue and 1 part water. Brush it on and let it dry then you can "sand" that area. Use a good primer and youll never know theres a mdf panel in there.
Note: the pic is early on when i was fitting the doors - they are only primed and the walls are not done.
the spacing is too wide between the doors.

[Jay Keller]

If you glue the doors around the panel joints as well (normally floating with solid wood), and if you use the Ultra Lite MDF, the hinges should not tear out from the soft MDF material due to the weight of the door.

[jason lambert]

keep in mind the router table and bit will run a fair amount, get a good bit cheap ones don't work very well that size. a plunge groov in MDF is alot easer and with the extra money get a nice festool plunge router with dust collection. Also I like the advice above look into buying doors sometimes they are pretty cheap.

[Jay Keller]

keep in mind the router table and bit will run a fair amount, get a good bit cheap ones don't work very well that size. a plunge groov in MDF is alot easer and with the extra money get a nice festool plunge router with dust collection. Also I like the advice above look into buying doors sometimes they are pretty cheap.
the fake raised panel doors.......look.....well......fake. Its as easy to make a real rp door. Any carbide raised panel set will do exceptionally well. You will hardly feel the cutter working on ultra lite mdf. Harbor frieght has a door panel: rail, stile and panel carbide 1/2" set on sale for $20 (normally 40). These are the same sets others sell for $120.

[David Weaver]

You've gotten a lot of replies about ultra-lite mdf, etc. which are probably more useful than my suggestions because I only have exposure to what we made, but to address the weight questions - yes, they felt a lot heavier than other raised panel doors. I don't think many of the doors we made were 3/4ths thick - probably a hair thinner than that, but the doors made out of solid wood were much lighter.

[Jay Keller]

doors made out of solid wood were much lighter.
thats funny!

[Tom Hargrove]

I worked in a furniture shop several years ago, and we did contract work to keep the machines and people busy when necessary. We made tens of thousands of cabinet doors out of MDF. If I were sprucing a house up to sell it, it would be my choice.

Beware of two things. The first is dust. MDF dust is finer than flour, and flys off tooling like nothing else I have worked with. When I rout MDF, I hook up my a shop vac in addition to my DC. If you don't have sufficient dust collection, it will fill your shop/home.

The second is finish. If you prime MDF with a water based finish, it will raise the grain, and correcting this will not be an easy task.

[mike roe]

the spacing is too wide between the doors.

yeah well 1980's contractor grade cabinets... face frames on these things are huge. the upper corner isnt a corner cab it 2 regular cabs - one of which has a huge area that cant be reached.
for the $150.00 bit set and the materials (cheap) and paint its was well worth it.

[Jay Keller]

yeah well 1980's contractor grade cabinets... face frames on these things are huge. the upper corner isnt a corner cab it 2 regular cabs - one of which has a huge area that cant be reached.
for the $150.00 bit set and the materials (cheap) and paint its was well worth it.
The same bit set is only $20 at Harbor Freight.

[Jay Keller]

I worked in a furniture shop several years ago, and we did contract work to keep the machines and people busy when necessary. We made tens of thousands of cabinet doors out of MDF. If I were sprucing a house up to sell it, it would be my choice.

Beware of two things. The first is dust. MDF dust is finer than flour, and flys off tooling like nothing else I have worked with. When I rout MDF, I hook up my a shop vac in addition to my DC. If you don't have sufficient dust collection, it will fill your shop/home.

The second is finish. If you prime MDF with a water based finish, it will raise the grain, and correcting this will not be an easy task.
I just sprayed water based primer (not finish) on several ultra light MDF doors. Not one iota of a hint of particles raising (there is no grain in MDF).

[Scott Loven]

The same bit set is only $20 at Harbor Freight.
You get what you pay for at Harborfreight
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90009
They are NOT the same as you could get for $120 from Freud or Infinity etc.
Scott

[Jay Keller]

You get what you pay for at Harborfreight
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=90009
They are NOT the same as you could get for $120 from Freud or Infinity etc.
Scott
the only thing thats different is the logo on the box they come in

[John Lanciani]

the only thing thats different is the logo on the box they come in


Now THAT'S funny...

Who knew that Harbor freight was selling bits just as good as the premium brands for 20% of the price? Why didn't you tell the rest of us sooner?

[Andrew Harver]

keep in mind the router table and bit will run a fair amount, get a good bit cheap ones don't work very well that size. a plunge groov in MDF is alot easer and with the extra money get a nice festool plunge router with dust collection. Also I like the advice above look into buying doors sometimes they are pretty cheap.

I am looking into all options. Being I have access to a router with table, I would only need to buy the bits and material. I am wanting to reface to better the value for sale.

I like to create things and have recently wanted to learn more and more about woodworking and making cabinets, tables, etc. I figured doors are as good as any place to start.

I would like to tackle this task as I think I am fully capable of doing so and will also save $$ in the process....that said, I am exploring the option of purchase as well.

I just know the feeling I had when I just completed my first outside deck with my own built in bench was great. Every afternoon when I am sitting on that bench, I get a great feeling of satisfaction. I can only imagine what it would feel like to create kitchen cabinets.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Jay Keller]

Now THAT'S funny...

Who knew that Harbor freight was selling bits just as good as the premium brands for 20% of the price? Why didn't you tell the rest of us sooner?

you know now. On sale at the moment a carbide raised panel door set for $20. Whats funny is those who feel it necessary to pay the 80% premium.

[Jay Keller]

I am looking into all options. Being I have access to a router with table, I would only need to buy the bits and material. I am wanting to reface to better the value for sale.

I like to create things and have recently wanted to learn more and more about woodworking and making cabinets, tables, etc. I figured doors are as good as any place to start.

I would like to tackle this task as I think I am fully capable of doing so and will also save $$ in the process....that said, I am exploring the option of purchase as well.

I just know the feeling I had when I just completed my first outside deck with my own built in bench was great. Every afternoon when I am sitting on that bench, I get a great feeling of satisfaction. I can only imagine what it would feel like to create kitchen cabinets.

Thanks,
Andrew

Its about the same price to buy premade MDF doors delivered as it would be to buy the retail raw materials to make. Premade are not true paneled doors but routed to appear as raised but with round corners. So real cheap and cheasy looking.

[Jay Keller]

the 3.5 inch raised panel bit from Harbor Freight ($20 for 3 cutter door set), cut through the MDF like butter. No need to gradually increase the cut, it can do it all at once with absolutely no effort by the bit or the table router. You do need good dust collection....a the shop vac will get overwhelmed.

Ive used this same set on dozens of doors from red oak to mdf with perfect results. Its the same set sold for 10x as much but rebranded.

[Scott Loven]

Which $120 bit set are you referring to that are the same as the HF $20 bit set? How about a link to the Chinese garbage bits for $120.

Scott

[Jay Keller]

Its the same OEM that provides them to all. They simply get rebranded and marked up 1000% becuase the companies feel they can take advantage of misplaced brand loyalty.

[Scott Loven]

Its the same OEM that provides them to all. They simply get rebranded and marked up 1000% becuase the companies feel they can take advantage of misplaced brand loyalty.
You really have no idea what you are talking about, If you did you would be able to give us the name of the OEM and the brand names it manufactures for.

[mike roe]

Ill tell ya what - if youre right id love it. But i have a harbor freight store near here and believe me i love cheap stuff..... but everything ive looked at there seems poor. i could be wrong or right - dont know - but for what the freud bits did for me im happy.

[Jay Keller]

You really have no idea what you are talking about, If you did you would be able to give us the name of the OEM and the brand names it manufactures for.
Freud, Infinity etc. If it wasnt for the oblivious, the rest of us would not know how good we have it.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Stop feeding the troll, guys. Then he'll go away.

[Howard Rosenberg]

Andrew -

Check out this SMC link - http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=4508 .

The entire carcass is made of MDF - all simple dadoes and glue - nuttin fancy.

The doors were made of 3/4" MDF "sticks" - I forget their width - that I assembled into a frame.
Then I routed rabbets in the frame.
Then I cut a 1/2" panel to fit and glued it into place.

There are a lot of tricks to working with MDF.
I use it almost exclusively in my furniture.
I'd be happy to offer some insight if you're interested.

Howard

P.S. - WB finishes doesn't swell MDF
- that's a myth repeated by well-intentioned but unknowledgeable people who've seen it on forums and wanting to be helpful, keep repeating it
- almost 100% of the time I use Milk Paint on my MDF projects like this one -
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=3818

[Andrew Harver]

Andrew -

Check out this SMC link - http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=4508 .

The entire carcass is made of MDF - all simple dadoes and glue - nuttin fancy.

The doors were made of 3/4" MDF "sticks" - I forget their width - that I assembled into a frame.
Then I routed rabbets in the frame.
Then I cut a 1/2" panel to fit and glued it into place.

There are a lot of tricks to working with MDF.
I use it almost exclusively in my furniture.
I'd be happy to offer some insight if you're interested.

Howard

P.S. - WB finishes doesn't swell MDF
- that's a myth repeated by well-intentioned but unknowledgeable people who've seen it on forums and wanting to be helpful, keep repeating it
- almost 100% of the time I use Milk Paint on my MDF projects like this one -
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=3818

Howard,

These pieces look great! I would be grateful for any insight into how to go about making the cabinet doors. I have 18 doors and 7 drawers to tackle.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Jim Becker]

Andy, one of the things that really helps with MDF cabinet doors is the current crop of "no screw" Euro hinges available from Blum and others...they use the same 35mm hole, but have "grippers" that expand into the recess to hold the hinge tight. (Ikea actually supplies these with their kitchen cabinets and I suspect it means a lot less returns from folks over torquing screws... ;) ) The reason I bring this up is that mechanical fasteners are probably the biggest challenge in working with MDF (and some other composites)...if you don't need use them, you remove the need to drill and install hardwood inserts for hinges, etc., on the doors. That saves time, effort, "expense" and so forth.

[Andrew Harver]

Andy, one of the things that really helps with MDF cabinet doors is the current crop of "no screw" Euro hinges available from Blum and others...they use the same 35mm hole, but have "grippers" that expand into the recess to hold the hinge tight. (Ikea actually supplies these with their kitchen cabinets and I suspect it means a lot less returns from folks over torquing screws... ;) ) The reason I bring this up is that mechanical fasteners are probably the biggest challenge in working with MDF (and some other composites)...if you don't need use them, you remove the need to drill and install hardwood inserts for hinges, etc., on the doors. That saves time, effort, "expense" and so forth.

Thanks Jim. Would the door pulls need to have a wood insert or something like that so the knobs or handles stay secure?

[Jim Becker]

Thanks Jim. Would the door pulls need to have a wood insert or something like that so the knobs or handles stay secure?

Most pulls have a screw that goes all the way through, so there likely wouldn't be any issue. You could further bolster the installation by using a washer under the screw head on the inside of the door. It's more visible, but painting the washer to match the cabinet would reduce the effect. If you're really anal, you could slightly countersink for the washer with a Forstner bit... :D

[Andrew Harver]

Thanks again. Sure is a lot to consider. I appreciate the help and look forward to tackling my forst cabinet making venture.

I'm positive I will have many more questions as I get going.

Thanks,
Andrew

[Jim Becker]

...and look forward to tackling my forst cabinet making venture..

A nice Brooklyn accent, eh? :D :D :D

[Andrew Harver]

A nice Brooklyn accent, eh? :D :D :D

Ah, brutal!:D

Just a good ol' southern boy here in old Virginny.

[Charles McCracken]

Freud, Infinity etc. If it wasnt for the oblivious, the rest of us would not know how good we have it.

Not to prolong the life of this thread but I'd love to see your data on this one!