setting up for precision

[Matthew Barrett]

I would like to inquire about how others use precision set up tools in their shops. I want to know how you tell your 45 degree angles are actually 45 and the saws cut square. Can't really rely on the tool angle gauges. Do you use a combination square and is it neccessary to spend big money, ie Starrett Tools. I want to take my woodworking to the next level and I think having precision set ups is a good start. Any help would be appreciated.

[Ken Werner]

Matthew, I am afraid that precision is costly. You may be able to find a used Starrett combination square. Or you can spring for the $60 or so it costs. I think you are precisely correct [sorry couldn't resist] that accurate tooling is an early step towards accurate work. Veritas makes a lovely 4" adj square for about $30. Well worth it. Garage sales and auctions are a great source of high quality tools, if you can afford the search and the wait. Best of luck in your pursuits.
Ken

[pat warner]

A few words (sample chapter (http://patwarner.com/routing_to_001.html)) if those setups are for routers.

[glenn bradley]

How far you have to go is up to you. I found out early on in this hobby that buying discount or off-brand tools used for measuring is a false economy. I'm handicapped by being more of an engineer than an artist so take this with a grain of salt.

Once I purchased some good quality (not the best but pretty darn good) measuring tools, my work stepped up a definite notch and my enjoyment increased as well.

That's my .02.

[Gary Keedwell]

I would like to inquire about how others use precision set up tools in their shops. I want to know how you tell your 45 degree angles are actually 45 and the saws cut square. Can't really rely on the tool angle prerequiset. Do you use a combination square and is it necessary to spend big money, IE Starrett Tools. I want to take my woodworking to the next level and I think having precision set ups is a good start. Any help would be appreciated.

Precision tools for set-up and checking your work, are a prerequisite IMHO. Maybe a Wixey angle gage ($40) to square your saw blades. A combination square to check your cuts. etc. etc. As an example: to put a face frame together with square butt-joints is a pleasure to see no gaps after the glue-up.
I have measuring tools I call "standards" that I use to check my other tools. For an example. I'll keep my good Starrett square nice and safe in my padded drawer in my tool box and bring it out once in awhile to check my other squares for trueness.
I also have a precision ground 4' straight-edge that I keep well protected to check my tools (like my jointer) tabletops, and other straight edges.
IMHO keeping my tools and machinery tuned-up makes this great hobby more enjoyable.:)

Gary K.

[J.R. Rutter]

Test cuts!

Good references are definitely helpful, but . . . You can dial in your machines for basic angles just by making mating cuts and checking for gaps.

Miters for instance: cut 4 identical pieces, run tape on outside of corners, fold together. Does it close up at the 4th corner? Are there gaps at the inside corners? Adjust blade accordingly.

[Rick Dohm]

I found the following helpful:

http://www.newwoodworker.com/basic/index.html

Good luck with it!

[Bruce Benjamin]

How far you have to go is up to you. I found out early on in this hobby that buying discount or off-brand tools used for measuring is a false economy. I'm handicapped by being more of an engineer than an artist so take this with a grain of salt.

Once I purchased some good quality (not the best but pretty darn good) measuring tools, my work stepped up a definite notch and my enjoyment increased as well.

That's my .02.


I guess it just depends on which types of tools you're buying. Like it or not, the set of Harbor Freight squares, (made in India) are every bit as accurate as the Starrett squares or any other high-end brand you care to list. I've checked mine at the machine/fab shop where I used to work and plenty of others have done the same. These squares were dirt cheap and they measured as accurate as anything that the machine shop had. WHY would anyone pay more for a name? This is a perfect example of why the phrase, "You get what you pay for" is such a tired and unrealistic phrase that tool snobs overuse all the time on this and other WW forums. I know you didn't say that and I'm not directing this rant at you, Glenn.

There are plenty of other examples of inexpensive measuring tools being as good as the more expensive ones. I think I paid about $20 on sale for my fractional dial caliper. I've compared it to several different known standards and it's as accurate as it can be with a dial and a pointer. Yet the Starrett version costs 3 or 4 times more. Why? What possible reason would anyone have for spending that kind of money when they don't need to?

My inexpensive hook rules I bought from Hartville Tool are another example. I got them and noticed that one of the hooks had a little extra metal that wasn't trimmed off. I took a file and spent about a minute cleaning it up. I checked both of them to the six inch dial caliper I have and they're both dead on to six inches. I moved the caliper down farther on the 12" one and it was still accurate. I have another cheap brand that has a better made hook and it is also just as accurate. I've seen other brands of hook rules that are far more expensive than what I paid. Can they be any more accurate than as close as I can see and check? Nope.

Another example is the dirt cheap plastic triangles you can get from a drafting supply house or even Office Depot. A few bucks and a perfectly calibrated angle, (pick one).

Lee Valley sells some straight edges that don't cost a lot of money. Why would I want to pay more to get an edge accurate to .001" over the length of the straight edge?

I realize that for some professions, such as precision machine work, ultra precision and specialized tools are required. And there are other types of WW measuring tools where it's hard to even find a cheap version and you might not want to. But the one's I listed are some of the most common and they can all easily be had for few $$$. I don't have a single measuring tool that can be improved upon by spending more money. And I haven't spent much money on any of them.

One example of a cheap tool I bought and returned because of inaccuracy was the Harbor Freight 3 in 1 Digital Protractor. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=94694 I bought it knowing it would possibly be junk but I had a coupon and it was $20. I can't afford the $110 Bosch version. Open it up to 180 degrees on a flat surface and it reads about 179.2 degrees. It was consistently off about 3/4 of a degree throughout the range but it read zero when closed all of the way. Oh, well. It was very easy to return. With the chance of saving about $90 off of the, "Real thing" I think the investment of a half hour of my time was worth it. But it's pretty rare that I've bought a cheap measuring tool and decided to return it or found it to be inaccurate later on.

Bruce

[Gary Keedwell]

Well, I guess buying tools is like buying a car. When a person asked a BMW owner why he purchased that car...he responded " because I can":D
Gary K.

[Mark Carlson]

Matthew,

My favorite setup tool is the ts aligner jr. It can be used to setup all your wood working machines. Do a google search and check out the online videos.

~mark

[Lee Schierer]

The least expensive and most accurate devices you can lay your hands on for 30, 45 and 60 degree angle set up are plastic draftsman triangles. They are exceptionally accurate. However, they are getting harder to find because most people do design work on computers these days.

You can't beat a good 12" scale and 6" scale graduated in 1/64 increments. I also have a pair of digital caliper from Harbor Freight that I bought for less than $15.00. I had a pair of dial calipers before that, but the saw dust got into the gearing and they were no longer useable. The digital ones are just as accurate and not prone to damage from dust.

For longer measurements I like Stanly 30' tape measures. I have two in my shop, but always use the same one throughout a project. (An early woodworking lesson is don't swap tape measures in the middle of a project, use the same one through out)

Stay away from the stamped sheet metal squares and combination squares you find at Wally World and other low price places. 99 out of 100 won't be square.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Gary Keedwell and Bruce Benjamin both make good points. Accuracy is important and setup tools and reference standards are the key. My only disagreement with Bruce would be that buying HF and other cheapos is only a good idea if you have some method of testing them against a known accurate reference standard. The alternate choice is to do some old fashioned exercises with the tool in question (any new one) and some old fashioned high school geometry. In my case, I'm fortunate enough that each of the reference standard tools I use in my home shop get taken to work and get tested on a coordinate measuring machine or some other regularly calibrated piece of inspection equipment which has accuracy traceable to NIST standards. As an example, I took my LV 24" steel straightedge to work and tested it. LV claims accuracy of +/-.005" over the full 24" length. Mine tested out at .0004". It stays wrapped in its rust resistant paper and in its box in a safe drawer except when it's needed.

As a final point, each and every measuring tool needs to be rechecked for accuracy if it is dropped or otherwise "hurt" and a periodic check on general principles isn't a bad idea either.

[jason lambert]

I have allot of HF tools. This past weekend I ruined some good wood because my combination squares where off, never relised it I have been using them for a while and always wondered why I couldn't measure. Went out and got a Starrett and going to get more. Anyhow I had some cheap stuff that was ok I. Moral of the stories is you need to test the cheap stuff if you get one square you are lucky. Also the Starrett stuff is all hardened so it won't go out over time the cheap stuff will ware out of square in time. Just my experience, i will still buy HF hammers and stuff but not precision tools.

[Bruce Benjamin]

I have allot of HF tools. This past weekend I ruined some good wood because my combination squares where off, never relised it I have been using them for a while and always wondered why I couldn't measure. Went out and got a Starrett and going to get more. Anyhow I had some cheap stuff that was ok I. Moral of the stories is you need to test the cheap stuff if you get one square you are lucky. Also the Starrett stuff is all hardened so it won't go out over time the cheap stuff will ware out of square in time. Just my experience, i will still buy HF hammers and stuff but not precision tools.

I don't think for a minute that all or maybe even most of the HF measuring tools are accurate. But the machinist squares I bought are very accurate and I don't recall seeing anything but good reviews of them on several of these types of threads. That eliminates that chance that I just got lucky. But their combinations squares are probably hit and miss, just like the ones you can buy at any hardware store or home center. I do agree that checking a square from HF or any other cheap source is a good idea. But that's pretty easy to do even without visiting a machine shop. The old method of drawing a line, turning it over and matching that line is pretty reliable and simple to do. I've checked calipers using Whiteside set up blocks and also using feeler gauges. The HF digital calipers also have received good reviews. Tape measures, whether from HF or anywhere else, aren't something that I trust when it really matters. I'm never going to use my HF squares so much that they will ever wear out. I seriously doubt that many other wood workers will either. Dropping them is something I wouldn't do with any brand.

Bruce

[Howard Acheson]

The way you set up tools is to cut and check. If the check indicates it's off, adjust the tool and make another cut. That's the way a pro sets up his tools. The precision tool you need is an accurate 90 degree and 45 degree angle. The thing to use is a plastic 45-45-90 degree plastic drafting triangle.

[Phil Thien]

(1) Get a few drafting triangles, and learn how to check them (there are articles available for doing this, so I won't duplicate that). (2) Then find a low-cost but high-quality combination square (I use my 6" square all the time, the 12" gets used occasionally). Look at eBay item #7521872384 for a good example of an item made with quality parts. These have hardened blades and components.

Now check the combination square(s) for accuracy. If they need tuning, use a diamond file and slowly adjust the head (there are small "bumps" the blade rides on). Check often with your drafting triangle. My low-cost 6" was off when I received it. An hour later it is as accurate as the Starrett.

I have had good luck w/ HF indicators.

[Gary Keedwell]

Trial and error is a proven method that goes back to our ancestors, the cavemen. Give me a well tuned machine and some real good measuring tools, Wixey, Starrett, etc. and I'll show you how NOT to waste time.;)
Gary K.

[Nissim Avrahami]

There are many replies to use a plastic drawing triangle.

I also found them very accurate and it you want to check them you just put 2 of them on a straight edge and you can see if there is a gap or not.

because of it's accuracy, I "copied " it on plywood.
You can see how I made it here
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=47242

I make my T-squares myself and you can see it on this post
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=45175

About calipers, you can modify them for measuring the TS blade or router bit height
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=37070

niki

[Andrew Williams]

What about the old-school method of using a square to make a line on a piece of wood, then flipping the square over and copying the line. If the two lines are on the same plane it is square, if they create an angle it is double the amount of out-of-square. This is how folks who made their own wooden try squares got them dialed in.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I just set my saw fence to the angle I want and it's golden.

However, I used to have to fuss with my older conventional TS fence all the time even putting tape on the rail to prevent it from rattling in the track.
Cut try, cut try, cut try, - OK - put the real work on and cut and measure and curse very loudly.

[Richard Butler]

Read the article at http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/8/20.html

"a Chinese copy of the Mit[otoyo]'s ... ARE just as reasonable and just as accurate and repeatable and reliable as the ... high-dollar herd."