RESOLVED: I was trying to avoid posting this - General jointer damaged by ???

[Gary Herrmann]

I posted a few weeks ago that I purchased a General 8" jointer and and a General 14" planer on sale at Redmond Machinery.

What I didn't post was that the jointer arrived damaged. I had assumed that either Redmond Machinery or the shipper (Old Dominion Freight Lines)would make it right for me. That was my 2nd mistake. The broken off piece was not in the crate.

I don't like rants. I am ranting, but I'm also posting it so some of you can learn from my mistake. Examine everything you order in minute detail before you sign for it. Dismantle the crate while its on the truck if you have to. Do NOT sign the form unless you are 100% certain no damage has occurred.

I've ordered 6 machines and had them shipped - 3 from Redmond. This is the first time I've ever had anything damaged. Lesson learned.

Following is the email I just sent to Redmond Machinery.


XXXX,


Old Dominion has also denied my claim. I find it hard to believe that the shipper denied my claim merely because I accepted the jointer. I accepted it because I didn't see the damage while it was in the crate, or I wouldn't have accepted it in the first place. Now the shipping company tells me there is no evidence of breakage occurring during shipping. So, with both companies involved denying responsibility for the breakage, the consumer has to just deal with it.


I find that to be completely ridiculous and unacceptable. Granted I got the jointer at a good price, but the damage will affect the price at which I am able to sell it in the future, should I ever decide to do so. It also affects the smoothness with which I can adjust the outfeed table. I selected the General jointer for its quality and that quality has been compromised.


I've purchased 3 machines from Redmond Machinery. Clearly, I am going to have to be very careful of who I order from and who ships me my tools in the future, or I will just have to buy locally.

[Christof Grohs]

The statistics below show that there are 18,000+ members at this site who have the potential to read your post about the damaged equipment. Those 18,000 people probably all have one or more friends they might talk to about buying woodworking equipment...thats 36,000+ people. Redmond or Old Dominion probably does not realize how powerful the internet is or maybe they just don't care. It seems they should make this right, a positve post about them is much better than a negative one.

[Lloyd McKinlay]

The piece not being in the crate (which I assume didn't have any holes poked in it) leads me to believe the damage occurred at the factory. If true, your complaint is with General, not the retailer or shipping company.

[Gary Herrmann]

I was told it was recrated at Redmond. It was a display model.

[Tim Morton]

I was told it was recrated at Redmond. It was a display model.

was it sold "as is". Or was it sold "as new"? Your complaint is definately with Redmund. They are good people and you should recieve satisfaction once you talk to the right people.

[Gary Herrmann]

It was sold as new. I specifically asked if there was any damage to either tool, and was told there wasn't.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Gary

I'm sorry about your bad experience but, I agree with the earlier post that ultimately this is the seller's responsibility. If paid by credit card you do have considerable recourse... Good luck and I hope for a positive outcome.

[Mike Cutler]

Personally. I believe that Redmond should be sending you a replacement bed. If the broken piece wasn't in the crate,and it was sold as new by Redmond. Redmond should make good on it.

I've always been leery of the shipping aspect of the sale. You're right about the inspection, and just how much time is the shipper willing to expend while the customer is dismantling the crate and inspecting everything, all the while the driver is cooling his heals and getting behind schedule. What happens if it is damaged? Who recrates it? you or the driver?. The last crate I had to dismantle wasn't going back together.

I hope everything works out. It bites when you finally get something you've been waiting for, and it's broken.

Good Luck.

[Phil Thien]

If you paid by credit card, call the seller (no E-Mail), and tell them you just spoke w/ your CC company. Tell them the credit card company needs to know right away whether the matter is being resolved, because otherwise they will initiate a CHARGE BACK (magic words to a CC merchant).

If the seller doesn't agree to take care of matters right way, call the CC company and dispute the charge.

[Jake Helmboldt]

It is hard to tell by the picture, but it looks like that is an older break w/ paint having chipped from around the edge as well.

Either way Redmond gets a big black eye for that. I would contact General as well to let them know what kind of crappy service one of their retailers is giving General customers.

As another mentioned, if you used a credit card you have recourse there. Document everything. Call Redmond, tell them to make it right or you'll request a chargeback from the credit card company and they can come get the stupid thing (at their time and expense).

JH

[Bob Herpolsheimer]

I am sorry for your trouble.

Chris is right on with his suggestion on the credit card. They are a true help is situations such as this. If you paid by credit card they can turn up some pressure on the bank of the vendor. If they cannot prove the damage was caused by another you may be able to get your money back or they may suddenly become more receptive to replacing the damaged pieces. Call your bank up and ask for their help. That's part of what they are there for.

As far as inspecting material when it comes in, this is your right. The driver cannot inhibit you from this. If it is damaged you are not required to recrate anything. Look at it this way, the truck company signed for the material when they picked it up, if they did not inspect it, or if they damaged it in transit, it should be their loss. Part of my job is to oversee our warehouse. We receive dozens of shipments everyday and have had very few loses due to damage.

[Steve Jensen]

I know it's not much help to you now, but next time buy the equilvilent Grizzly product and you won't have this problem. I speak from experience.

I do hope everything is resolved to your satisfaction. Good luck.

[Tim Malyszko]

Gary,

That sucks to hear about your new jointer. Like others have said, I too notified the CC company and they immediately opened up a dispute/fraud case on couple of big ticket items and that always got the vendors attention. Good luck getting your issue resolved.

[Mike Heidrick]

General may help you out. Call them. Tell them you do not feel safe at all using the jointer as you do not know where else cracks have been made in the bed. Do not mention anything about this affecting your resale value as that is not a valid concern to any reseller.

Also any warranty with a shipping company is between the shipping company and the shipper. Even when you pay for insurance with UPS or whomever, when there is a claim it is to be settled between UPS and the the shipper. It takes the shipper to sign a consent form for the shipper to settle up with the receiver.

Freight claims need to be made by redmond.

Did you get it in writing that the item was to be sold as new? I am thinking this was like this before it left Redmond which is why they did not file the claim already with the freight company.

Can you send it back?

If Redmond gives you any problem call the CC company and ask for an account manager to be assigned to this transaction/account and that you want to dispute the charge. They will give you some story trying to get you to wait 10 businbess days blah blah blah. Ask them very nicely to please go ahead and assign the manager to your account now and tell them you do not feel you can get any help with the company otherwise because they are not working with you. They will call Redmond and help you get this squared away. CC companies do not like bad press on transactions made on their cards.

[John Hain]

Agreed with what everyone has said. Credit card companies are your devil and your angel. They are your angel in this situation. There's a reason you pay your APR. They give you damage protection. Use them to fix the problem. As a consumer, it's your right.

[Brad Naylor]

The piece not being in the crate (which I assume didn't have any holes poked in it) leads me to believe the damage occurred at the factory. If true, your complaint is with General, not the retailer or shipping company.

If this is true, it shows a very interesting difference between English law and US law.

Over here, your contract is with the retailer alone. No matter that damage may have occured at the factory before packaging, it is the retailer who must sort it out or risk being sued by the customer.

If the shipping is arranged by the retailer, any claim you may have for damage in transit is against the retailer. It is his responsibility to claim from the shipper, with whom he has the contract.

I suspect that this is actually also the case in the US

Cheers
Brad

[Mike Heidrick]

If this is true, it shows a very interesting difference between English law and US law.

Over here, your contract is with the retailer alone. No matter that damage may have occured at the factory before packaging, it is the retailer who must sort it out or risk being sued by the customer.

If the shipping is arranged by the retailer, any claim you may have for damage in transit is against the retailer. It is his responsibility to claim from the shipper, with whom he has the contract.

I suspect that this is actually also the case in the US

Cheers
Brad


In this case the machine was on display at the dealer. It was crated and shipped out by the dealer.

Shipping claims are the same here in the states. Most people have not processed a claim though and think because they pay insurance it is for them. Not true.

Another issue is that over estimating the value of an item (say the value of the item new vs. true value of the used item you are buying) for insurance does nothing to help you. The responsibility of the insuring shipping company is to pay the shipper an amount of money that equals the value of the item or the amount of money required to repair the item to the condition in which the item was shipped. Age and wear and tear of the item are factored in. (for my claim I was required to have estimates done since the value was over $200 but that was with UPS) You do not automatically get the $$ for a new item especially if the item was used. I learned the hard way.

In all of this the shipper is supposed to make good the original contract with the buyer.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Unless the written agreement (the "contract" in layman's terms) expressly states that the "risk of loss" (in those terms precisely) lies on party X; the risk of loss always changes from the seller to the buyer when the item is placed in the bailor's custody (the trucker).

The risk of loss can be transferred from the Buyer to the Bailor if the Bailor fails in his duty to reasonably provide shipment or storage or whatever his duty is.

The up shot of this is that when you are paying for a nice expensive piece of machinery you should never - ever - not ever - take the position that the dealer is a stand up company or that the trucker is responsible and that if anything goes wrong that they will take care of you. You should always take care of yourself and get an insurance rider for the shipment and safety of the item.

Most equipment sellers will make such insurance available and your home owner's policy can have a rider added in very short order. It's usually just a phone call to set it up and it's not expensive.

[Gary Herrmann]

I'm going to call Redmond today and give them a chance to make it right for me. If they don't, I'm calling my CC company to begin the dispute process. Thanks all for your input.

[Matt Meiser]

My experience has been that the credit card company considers the consumer to be in the right if they don't feel they got what they paid for. I would suspect that this will get taken care of in short order going that route.

[Matt Bickford]

Don't forget the better business bureau. I had a problem with my veterinarian and they provided much more help than American Express. They're the ones that ultimately went to bat for me, not the credit card company. It's a simple process. Make sure you cc anything you send to the BBB to all parties, including General. I felt like the perceived threat was the most valuable. I called a lawyer near me and posed the question, then added his firm to the long list of cc's (I never actually sent the lawyer anything, I just felt like it was more threatening with his name attached to the letters). I even contacted my local news stations' 'Undercover' units and cc'd the vet. But I digress...

In the end the vet probably got 20 letters from me plus having to deal with the BBB. Judging by the number of letters she had to send to the BBB (she cc'd me on them), her headache was caused by them. American Express demanded a single paragraph from her.

[Paul Libby]

BBB +1 (they have been a wonderful ally to me when efforts with the retailer failed), in addition to the credit card co. I hope Redmond steps up to the plate. As others have said, I hope that they make things right with this. Best of luck to you.

Gary, from your photo of the crate: If it was shipped on the pallet like that, with the supports on the table ends. It appears that the pallet was not rigid enough to prevent putting extreeme stress on the ends of the tables if the pallet was lifted from either end. Not knowing how the crate/pallet looked originally, I may be way off. However, it might be helpful for Redmond and General to see how the jointer was crated, by Redmond. I would also be curious as to how General crates the machines for shipment (assembled or not, and how the tables are supported and the construction of the pallet. Again best of luck to you.

[Andy Livingston]

I have been to Redmond and the folks there are really great. Last time I was there they were trying to clear out all their General and General International products. The market wasn't there for them. I am guessing they no longer have a great relationship with General, so it may be tough for them to find you a replacement bed. That being said, I do think it should be up to the retailer to send you an new bed, no matter what it costs them.

[Ted Jay]

Personally. I believe that Redmond should be sending you a replacement bed. If the broken piece wasn't in the crate,and it was sold as new by Redmond. Redmond should make good on it.

I've always been leery of the shipping aspect of the sale. You're right about the inspection, and just how much time is the shipper willing to expend while the customer is dismantling the crate and inspecting everything, all the while the driver is cooling his heals and getting behind schedule. What happens if it is damaged? Who recrates it? you or the driver?. The last crate I had to dismantle wasn't going back together.

I hope everything works out. It bites when you finally get something you've been waiting for, and it's broken.

Good Luck.

If there isn't any sign of visible damage to the crate itself I don't think the driver is going to let you near the crate with a hammer to take it apart to inspect inside the crate. Most of the time he's delivering the item, and as long as there is no visible external damage his job is done. The shipping company didn't pack it for them, seems to me it's a Redmond problem.

[Gary Herrmann]

I heard back from Redmond Machinery today. I don't mean to take advantage of the system, but after examining the jointer tonight I found a couple other things. First is the email from my salesman, then my response.

It seems like he intends to do the right thing. I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens.




Gary,

I have spoken to my Old Dominion representative as well as the guy in charge of OS&D at our local terminal and they have both told me basically the same thing;

When shipping freight, it is the receivers responsibility to inspect all packages for damages in the presence of the delivery driver,

Any damage discovered or concerns about possible damage must be noted on both the driver’s and receiver’s copy of the bill of lading,

Because no such notations were made, your delivery was considered complete without damage. Old Dominion has apparently determined the damage to your machine to be “concealed damage” and, as far as Old Dominion is concerned, the damage could have occurred before it was shipped (which I know is not the case) or after the driver left (which you know is not the case). This is why, as it was explained to me, your claim was denied.
However, my Old D representative has recommended that you resubmit the claim. She said that in cases such as this many claims are automatically denied, but that if the claim is resubmitted – the claims department may pay, or at least negotiate, the settlement. She is also trying other avenues to facilitate the claim.

In the meantime, I will be glad to order the replacement rear table and have it shipped directly to you from General. As I stated in one of our previous correspondences, I will be billing this part at Redmond’s cost. However, I will hold the bill until the matter with Old Dominion is completely resolved. At which time I will absorb any cost that is not paid to you by the freight company, even if they do not pay you anything. I do ask that you resubmit your claim and make your best effort to negotiate full restitution. Because you signed for the machine without notation of damage, my hands are tied and I can not file or negotiate the claim myself.

Just so that you know that we at Redmond are concerned about our customer’s satisfaction and that we try to turn situations like this into opportunities to improve, I will be creating a large label to be placed on all machinery shipped. This label will inform the receiver of the need to inspect for all damages prior to signing for the machinery. Damages in shipping have been very rare for us over the years, and claims this difficult have been even rarer. Hopefully, this label will help keep situations like this from developing again.

Please confirm that the “rear table” is the only replacement part you are in need of and I will get it ordered and shipped as soon as possible.

I am sorry that my vacation delayed this process even longer. Please call me if you have any questions or concerns.

XXXX






XXXX,


I spent an hour this evening closely examining the jointer. I found the following things:


1. The broken section of cast iron on the outfeed table (which you know about)


2. The infeed and outfeed tables cannot be made parallel. One of the tables is twisted. Using a straight edge and feeler gauge, the closest I can come to parallel is when the outfeed table is.01" (one hundredth of an inch) lower than the infeed table on the side closest to the guard and .006" higher than the infeed table next to the fence. I assume this twist is due to the impact that broke the cast iron off the outfeed table, but am not sure.


3. There was a great deal of vibration when I started the jointer. I finally identified the cause. Please note the attached pics. The arbor on the motor pulley is rubbing against the door. The end of the arbor is abraded from contacting the door the two or three times I've started it. Again, I assume this is due to the impact to the jointer that broke the outfeed table but am not sure. Even with the door open, there is excessive vibration. It is possible a motor mount has been damaged. Considering how hard the impact would have to be to break off a piece of cast iron, it isn't unreasonable to assume it could also damage a motor mount. Clearly, it moved the motor.


I cannot get a nickel to balance on edge when the jointer is running (even with the door open). I can balance a nickel on edge on the General tablesaw and planer when I start them, running and stop them.


What are my options? Replacing the outfeed table will fix the broken cast iron and may eliminate the twist in the tables. However it won't solve the problem with the pulley arbor, and I am not going to leave the door open when the jointer is running in the future.


I've already spent a great deal of time attempting to tune up this new jointer. I don't want to have to spend hours on it each time we replace one part.


What are we going to do about the pulley arbor? Clearly the motor has become misaligned.


What are we going to do if replacing the outfeed table does not eliminate the twist in the tables?


I'd like to know your recommendations before I resubmit my claim.


Replacing the jointer will definitely eliminate any of these problems.



I can be reached at work at 8888888888 if you want to talk tomorrow.


Gary

[Mike Heidrick]

Call the CC company and dispute. Do it now before you end up with this charge. Tell Redmond to send the freight truck back - you have a return.

You bought a "new" jointer.

[Gary Herrmann]

I opened a dispute about a week ago. I think that may have started the ball rolling.

[Matt Meiser]

I agree--get the process started with the CC company and make sure he knows it. Tell him that you are doing so because the bill is coming due and you know they will work it out before it becomes necessary to have the charges reversed. It will take some time with the CC comapny and if you wait too long you are more likely to have trouble.

Never mind--I see we posted at the same time.

[Eddie Darby]

The statistics below show that there are 18,000+ members at this site who have the potential to read your post about the damaged equipment. Those 18,000 people probably all have one or more friends they might talk to about buying woodworking equipment...thats 36,000+ people. Redmond or Old Dominion probably does not realize how powerful the internet is or maybe they just don't care. It seems they should make this right, a positve post about them is much better than a negative one.

Make that 18,001 !

" I don't like rants. I am ranting, but I'm also posting it so some of you can learn from my mistake."

I think you are putting this forum to good use, and doing it in a reasonable manner, so I would not call this a rant, but a warning. Thanks for posting.

[Gary Curtis]

I was sad to see your predicament. I just retired from FedEx, and though I worked in Flight Operations, I know a bit about motor carriers and freight. You, the receiver, have to protect yourself when the item is delivered by inspecting as best you can. Right while the driver is present. And in writing.

When I bought my General tablesaw a year ago, the dealer instructed me to do the same. We were standing in front of my saw in its crate and I asked him, "How do I do that when the contraption is boxed up in wood and cardboard?" He said to look for obvious signs on the outside -- dents, scuffs, holes poked in the cardboard, distressed wood on the pallet. And to make a notation of that on the drivers waybill copy.

Once down on paper, a later discovery of real trouble (when fully unpacked) is substantiated and won't be disputed. I feel your dilemma because in my case, the pallet took 3 days to uncrate - saw and sliding table weighed 1,000 lbs. I didn't see anything on the exterior and worried about the inside and what was hidden.

As to General's standards for shipping, I just got a look at a competitor. I went to a WW seminar at Felder in Sacramento calif. For lumber to build a front door we used the pallet from a 1300-lb Felder sliding tablesaw. In comparison, the General pallet and restraints were robust. Your dealer was not on the job for not giving you this warning about inspection. It is standard, according to the really nice FedEx driver who brought my half-ton beastie. Largely because some stuff does get damaged, at least cosmetically. And because buyers bang up a new machine in their own shop trying to manhandle equipment without a forklift or a pallet jack. And they want someone else to pay for the damage.

To your dealer, fixing the problelm is 2 phone calls and a few emails.

Gary Curtis

[Bruce Page]

Do I understand this correctly? Whenever we take delivery of a piece of machinery we are to uncrate and perform a complete inspection? Do the trucking companies really want this? I bet it took 45 min. to uncrate my MM bandsaw. I can’t imagine the trucker standing around for 45 min watching me do this.

I think Old Dim is trying to pull a fast one.

[Scot wolf]

Sounds like you're moving in the right direction. For future purchases that are shipped common carrier remember to do the following. ALWAYS write on the ticket that you sign " ...... possible concealed damage". You will ALWAYS find a scrape,cut,scuff,ding, gouge, ect on the crate. So you write on the ticket "crate gouged (or whatever) possible concealed damage". No matter how minor just write it on the ticket!

[Mike Heidrick]

Sounds like you're moving in the right direction. For future purchases that are shipped common carrier remember to do the following. ALWAYS write on the ticket that you sign " ...... possible concealed damage". You will ALWAYS find a scrape,cut,scuff,ding, gouge, ect on the crate. So you write on the ticket "crate gouged (or whatever) possible concealed damage". No matter how minor just write it on the ticket!

This is an awesome post. I almost feel like I was taking a gamble each time I just signed the sheet. On my planer the crate had one corner literally broken (Delta crating on this huge stuff is simple 1x2s stapled to form a see through slat box). I just signed because I could see nothing wrong at all with the planer or wrapoing around it - guess the simple crating box at least allowed me to see the product. I will definately take this advise though - Thanks again Scott - great advise.

[Brad Townsend]

I can appreciate that Redmond is trying to work things out, but why should it have taken this much effort on Gary's part.

When I got my Griz jointer a couple of years ago, the cabinet base was dented to the extent that the whole machine would rock from side to side. There was absolutely no indication of damage on the packaging anywhere. Of course, I had signed off on it.

When I called Grizzly, their response was to apologize profusely and ship out a replacement, no questions asked.

[Gary Curtis]

Bruce, the point is you can't easily open everything up. But if you make a notation on the waybill (also called Bill of Lading) of any scuff, dents, dings on the crate you give yourself leverage for further damage discovered on complete unpacking.

The driver will wait while you give a visual inspection to every corner of the crate and pallet exterior. Five minutes at most. And - heaven forbid - if the driver drops the crate or otherwise manhandles it, write down "Possible damage from rough handling". This is language that these folks understand.

Gary Curtis

[Brian Weick]

If they won't take care of the problem- call general- see if you can't make some progress with them- doesn't look like you will be buying any tools from Redmond - That's all they need to hearm doesn't look good all the way around. I hope you can get some peice of mind and get this resolved - You are right about checking your shipped items- not that you can't get this resolved, but it makes the process less messy . You spend your hard earned money to buy a piece of machinery and no one wants to take responsibility for any problems that may come up- redmond better wake up- I am right behind you- all the way!
Regards,


I posted a few weeks ago that I purchased a General 8" jointer and and a General 14" planer on sale at Redmond Machinery.

What I didn't post was that the jointer arrived damaged. I had assumed that either Redmond Machinery or the shipper (Old Dominion Freight Lines)would make it right for me. That was my 2nd mistake. The broken off piece was not in the crate.

I don't like rants. I am ranting, but I'm also posting it so some of you can learn from my mistake. Examine everything you order in minute detail before you sign for it. Dismantle the crate while its on the truck if you have to. Do NOT sign the form unless you are 100% certain no damage has occurred.

I've ordered 6 machines and had them shipped - 3 from Redmond. This is the first time I've ever had anything damaged. Lesson learned.

Following is the email I just sent to Redmond Machinery.


XXXX,


Brian


Old Dominion has also denied my claim. I find it hard to believe that the shipper denied my claim merely because I accepted the jointer. I accepted it because I didn't see the damage while it was in the crate, or I wouldn't have accepted it in the first place. Now the shipping company tells me there is no evidence of breakage occurring during shipping. So, with both companies involved denying responsibility for the breakage, the consumer has to just deal with it.


I find that to be completely ridiculous and unacceptable. Granted I got the jointer at a good price, but the damage will affect the price at which I am able to sell it in the future, should I ever decide to do so. It also affects the smoothness with which I can adjust the outfeed table. I selected the General jointer for its quality and that quality has been compromised.



I've purchased 3 machines from Redmond Machinery. Clearly, I am going to have to be very careful of who I order from and who ships me my tools in the future, or I will just have to buy locally.

[Bruce Page]

Bruce, the point is you can't easily open everything up. But if you make a notation on the waybill (also called Bill of Lading) of any scuff, dents, dings on the crate you give yourself leverage for further damage discovered on complete unpacking.

The driver will wait while you give a visual inspection to every corner of the crate and pallet exterior. Five minutes at most. And - heaven forbid - if the driver drops the crate or otherwise manhandles it, write down "Possible damage from rough handling". This is language that these folks understand.

Gary Curtis
Thanks Gary, this thread has been most enlightening!

[glenn bradley]

All this may be moot due to the time that has passed but - The LOML does shipping, returns and claims for a living and has for a dozen years or so. Her take is that if there is no visible damage to the carton (and it is a sealed container meaning nothing could fall out) and missing/broken parts are not in the container when opened; any independent freight inspector (that OD should have sent out) would write in their report that the unit was shipped damaged.

Obviously such damage should be reported immediately (concealed damage has a 15 day limit to report even if the freight was signed as 'clear'). One would ask the shipping company to make a notation on the delivery receipt to the effect that concealed damage was discovered.

You also have 9 months to file a freight claim with the freight company but sooner is better than later. You would then have to make the jointer available to them as a salvage pickup and they 'should' pay you the amount of your invoice plus the original shipping charges. This assumes they have determined the unit was damaged prior to shipping and there will be an investigation as they will be reporting it to thier insurance company who will involve thier own investigator.
All in all a big pain and she deals with this stuff every day (I love my job, I love my job). I would have your credit card company hold payment until this is resolved. I would research any avenue but your last resort is small claims court. I hope some of this helps.

[Jim Chilenski]

Gary,

Let me make a couple of assumptions first.

You purchased a "floor Model" from Redmond at a reduced price.

Because the jointer was a floor model Redmond's staff crated the jointer for shipment.

The photo at the beginning of this post is a picture of the jointer as it sat in the crate that Redmond packed it in.

If the above statements are true then here are my observations. The jointer was not packed correctly for shipment. The jointer should not have been shipped with the center section and the tables mounted to the base. The entire top of the jointer, center section and tables, should have been removed from the base and placed upside down on the bottom of the packaging and the base should have been packed seperately. This is how my jointer, not a General, was packaged. It appears that the shipping crate was built so that the ends of the tables were supported by wood members attached to the bottom of the crate.

Now here's where I believe the problem came from. The wooden support that runs from left to right on the bottom of the crate does not appear to be thick enough to support the weight of the jointer without flexing. If a fork lift or pallet jack were to be placed under the crate the forks would be on either side of the jointer's base. Once lifted, the bottom support would then bow down in the middle forcing the ends to flex upward. This upward pressure then forced the ends of the tables up as well, causing the crack in the casting of the table.

In my opinion whoever crated the jointer did an inadequate job of protecting it for shipment and should be responsible for making good on it. If what I have stated is "true" then Redmond should do whatever is necessary to make you whole. While I would not expect them to replace your "floor model" with a "new" jointer, I would expect them to replace all of the damaged parts or else take the jointer back and refund your money.

Jim

[Steven Wilson]

Gary

The jointer wasn't packaged correctly from Redmond. For that type of jointer the bed assembly needs to be removed from the cabinet and packaged seperately. During transport (or being loaded with a fork lift) the tables were stressed on their ends stressing the casting and tweeking the cabinet (motor damage you note). Redmond owes you a new machine, this one is toast (you need infeed and outfeed tables, new cabinet, and a motor swap).

[Ted Miller]

Do I understand this correctly? Whenever we take delivery of a piece of machinery we are to uncrate and perform a complete inspection? Do the trucking companies really want this?

It does not matter what the trucking company or the hourly driver says or does, if he wants you to accept the item he will wait. Once you sign the bill of lading its now your responsibility and the trucking company is off the hook for claims unless noted on the lading.

I have over 20 years managing a warehouse for a community college and I see damaged freight on a daily basis. 15% of my small delivery drivers, DHL, UPS, Fed-x Home, Fed-x Ground are damaged. Fed-x Express maybe 1% will be damaged and believe it or not USPS maybe 1%. Freight carriers its in the range of 60%, yup 60% of the freight I see is damaged. Out of the 60% of freight its 30% the manufacturers bad packing and not properly securing items the way they should be.

I check in everything on this campus from cadavers to robots. The other day a $270,000.00 CNC machine came in and yes the driver helped me uncrate and inspect the item to make sure nothing was damaged. I bet he was here for 25 minutes.

Once you sign the lading its your unless otherwise noted. Never REFUSE any shipment then you have nothing to bargain with against the vendor IF it is damaged or if there is missing items.

When you are ready to sign the bill of lading always sign and print your name, add the piece count and date near your name. make sure you have a copy of the bill of lading. If you see any damage to the crate, box, pallet, wrap, etc you mark it down. if you hear any noise in the package mark it down. You have every right to open and inspect anything you sign for. Any claims must be filed with the VENDOR not the freight company within a few days. It is not your responsibility to deal with the frieght company. You are the consignee not the shipper. I will often mark down "subject to inspection" if the packaging is pristine but I hear noises inside even if I look inside and see no damage. I also write down "subject to piece count" if the bill of lading has tons of small pieces like hundreds of items. Always look at what the lading has for count. It may say pallet count and piece count. Then sign for what exactly you see, pallets or pieces or both or write any remark you feel is neccesary.

I sign for 3-7 million dollars worth of freight each and every year. Every damaged item I deal with gets handled 100%. I know claims adjusters on first name basis and the best protection for damaged freight is pictures. Remember freight claims companies are third parties and they have no interest in ripping you off. My digital camera is ready on my desk waiting for a truck to show up and that one thing always wins when it comes to the claim, pictures.

Always remember that freight companies do not make money on the deliveries only the pick ups. Deliveries just waste money on fuel and drivers wages.

Just because the driver handles this truck all day he is only incharge of getting the freight off his truck by 2:30pm so he can begin his pick ups. You are incharge of the package since you paid for it so do what you need to do to settled your mind that everything is correct before he leaves.

Now drivers DO NOT have to help you move the product and place it in your shop. If the bill is prepaid FOB that means the driver will help unload from his trailer but thats it. Some compnies have a 50 ft. rule on how far they will move items from their trailer. Also weight is a major concern if the driver will help you unload. If you did not ask for liftgate delivery and your item weighs in over 300 lbs on a regular trailer then good luck getting the driver to help you by hand.

Attitudes go far when it comes to drivers and receivers. I can tell how a drivers attitude will be towards me by the way he drives up to my whse and the way he walks even before he speaks one word to me. They can have some serious chips on their shoulders and if they give you any lip about anything, then tell him to leave and DO NOT SIGN for anything but copy down the pro number from the package. Trust me he will be back with a smile on his face since he does not want to work around your item in his trailer when doing pick ups. Or if you like call his dispatch and tell them what you think about that particular driver.

CYA and DTA are words to live by when dealing with freight...

[Ted Miller]

Geez, Forgot to add in my long winded blowhart post that the items I see damaged in this thread look to have been done prior to packaging. If the outer packing material was in pristine shape then the vendor is at fault here.

Consealed damaged happens all the time but this case it looks to be the vendors fault IMO.

Not one time in my life have I seen a freight company repack a damaged item they damaged. Yes I see clear tape on many things that drivers use to fix a box that is open. But recrate something, no way...

[Brian Weick]

Yes! The ends should have been removed from the cabinet- I thought that was a little strange to have it arrive pre-assembled. I don't think Redmond wanted to waist the time disassembling or didn't think about the part stress in transit- absolutely! Go back to Redmond’s!
Brian

[Jim Grill]

Best of luck to you, Gary. That is a real drag. It makes my stomach hurt just to look at it. I can imagine how you must feel.

I definitely think someone should take care of this for you. I would expect that I should be able to return something if I'm not happy with it. I think the same should apply to machinery.

I tried the credit card thing once. My bank told me that since I received the merchandise, they could not issue a charge back. I had to work out a return to the vendor before they would allow the charge back. The plan was that I would send it back requiring a signature on delivery and then use that as proof that I was not in possession of the merchandise. Luckily, the vendor agreed to a refund at that point.

As mentioned in this thread, the bank is on your side and should work with you on a solution, if it gets that far. Merchants do not like charge backs and it's in their best interest to prevent one, if possible.

Best of luck to you. Keep us informed - all 18,000 of us! ;)

[Tim Lynch]

Ted,

As far as longwinded blowhard posts go, I rather enjoyed it! ;)

Very informative.

I've been ordering a lot of LTL delivered items for my home remodel and I've been surprised at the amount of shipping damage incurred. Luckily, the supplier was specific about how to receive items -- inspect, document, etc. -- so replacement items were no problem. But even some of the replacements arrived damaged! Funny almost.

Another surprising thing... the drivers were all great, and seemed to be on my side (they blamed their warehouse). One suggested I run and get my camera. He called his dispatcher and described some of the packages as total losses (a generous assessment actually, since they weren't that bad).


Anyway, your post reinforces a lot of good points, thanks!

[Gary Herrmann]

Per the comments regarding shipment of the jointer intact - I agree. My first jointer was shipped disassembled. I just called General and they do ship them dissasembled. They also told me they assemble the jointer in their plant and then grind the tables while they're on the cabinet to insure they will be parallel. Make me wonder if I'll be able to get mine parallel if I get a replacement outfeed table.

I was told today Redmond will order a new outfeed table and gibs from General and ship them to me. If I get anything from the shipping company, they'll use it to cover it. If not, there will be no cost to me.

I'm going to go home tonight and see if I can adjust the motor assembly and be sure the pulleys are aligned.

Redmond told me they will not replace the jointer, but will get me the replace the parts I need repair it.

If I can resolve the motor issue, eliminate the vibration and can get the new outfeed table installed and parallel to the infeed table, I'll be satisfied (note I didn't say happy).

Stay tuned...

[Bruce Benjamin]

This is crazy! With all of the trouble you've gone through and still have to look forward to, you may still end up with a jointer that will never be quite right. And a jointer that isn't quite right is worthless. And by that point it will be even harder to get a refund. Regardless of what Redmond says about a refund, you should demand one and get started with your credit card company dispute. You have way more patience and tolerance than most people would on this problem and I have the feeling it's going to end up biting you in the :eek: . If the damage was only cosmetic I can see taking their approach but in this case, it's the very heart of the machine that's damaged, and in ways that are not completely known.

I bought an 8" jointer from Sunhill a few years ago. They shipped the 6" even though the paper work was correct. It wasn't obvious to me until I started to unpack it. They shipped out the correct jointer the same day I complained before I even had the old one packed up. They paid for the old jointer to be shipped back of course and gave me a couple of sets of knives for my trouble. There was some slight damage to the jointer base. I determined that I could probably bend it straight and live with the damaged paint. They said if I couldn't that they would pay to ship the old base back and ship me a new one immediately. I didn't want to bother packing the old one up and waiting around for another pick up and delivery. It was easy to fix and the cosmetic damage is hidden by the super heavy duty mobile base I made for it. Upon set up I discovered that the Fence was twisted. They didn't hesitate to send me out a new one and it also shipped the same day. They didn't ask for the old fence to be returned. They never had any response other than, "I'm very sorry, what can we do to make you happy?" Somewhere during this drawn out transaction they also sent me a free mobile base that they sell for about $80 or so. It's very beefy but I haven't used it because I went with the one I built myself. This is the attitude that Redmond should have with you. They should be asking you what they can do to make you happy. I have no doubt that if at any time I would've asked Sunhill for a complete refund they would've sent out the truck and I would've seen the refund on my credit card. Redmond is absolutely a company I'll never be doing business with at all.

Bruce

[Bill Wyko]

If it wasn't packaged in original packaging I would tell them that you ordered a new product and received a product that had been re-packaged. This is the reason this entire problem exists. Therefor the problem was caused by the improper re-packaging of the tool. And the possibility of this being a used tool exists which opens a whole other situation of legal liability. If they don't make it good I'd issue a charge back based on the tool being damaged due to packaging not being origonal and possibly used. I wish you the best of luck.

[Gary Herrmann]

Right now it looks like all I'll get is a replacement outfeed table and gibs. I did get the tool on sale since it was a display. Because of this when I mentioned replacing the infeed and outfeed tables, the salesman said he couldn't do that and I should just return it.

Unfortunately, I've already bought a mobile base and a shelix head for the joniter, so that doesn't seem like a realistic option - unless I want to eat the $ for them, which I certainly don't.

[Jim Shaver, Oakville Ont]

What a nightmare ...... I am sorry that this happened to you.

I own 5 Generals, including a 480 jointer. Did you speak with Christian at General, they know what they are doing there...they have excellent customer service.

[Anthony Anderson]

"Rejection, failure, anxiety, depression, shame, is there any hope". Are these the emotions that you are feeling yet? This is from a link on their website, maybe they are trying to tell you something before you even order.

Gary, I would look into an exchange on the shelix head, one to fit the jointer that you order from another company, after returning the General to Redmond. Your situation is quite absurd. You have dealt with far more than ever should have been expected. As for the shipping company's argument, I would go out on a limb and say that at least 90 percent of people don't check their deliveries while in the presence of the delivery driver. But I bet I will in the future. They will not get any paperwork signed until I inspect the shipment with a fine tooth comb. Which means their driver won't be able to leave for at least three hours. I have never inspected upon delivery, and if a problem was discovered the company immdiately took care of the problem without any HASSLE.

You said you ordered a floor model at a reduced price, that's Okay. But you would not have ordered the machine had you known that it would not be prepared for shipment properly, and/or would have been damaged upon arrival. I would demand a refund and deal with exchanges on the other items. As far as Redmond goes, I am not sure that I would ever order from them. Major Black Eye, and shame on them. Trust me, they are not doing you any favors. Get with the CC company and send the necessary paperwork, and get an reverse payback. Good Luck, Really, Good Luck, Bill

[Chuck Wintle]

Right now it looks like all I'll get is a replacement outfeed table and gibs. I did get the tool on sale since it was a display. Because of this when I mentioned replacing the infeed and outfeed tables, the salesman said he couldn't do that and I should just return it.

Unfortunately, I've already bought a mobile base and a shelix head for the joniter, so that doesn't seem like a realistic option - unless I want to eat the $ for them, which I certainly don't.
I would return the tool and deal with another company. Once you get the runaround to replace a tool with an obvious defect then that company has told you they have no intention of standing behind their product. If they realized how many woodworkers read this forum they might think otherwise.

[Michael Schwartz]

It sounds like the machine is very seriously damaged, possibly in ways you can't detect. Who knows what kind of stress fractures or cracks have been caused which cause future problems. With a Jointer, even two people picking it up by the ends of the beds to move it can cause damage.

I would tell them that you don't feel safe operating the machine and that based on the level of damage and possible undetectable dammage that was caused by improper packaging on their part that the machine will never deliver the tolerances and accuracy you paid for and that you want to return it, or have it sent to General for a factory rebuild.

[Gary Herrmann]

This is the problem as I see it. I have a damaged jointer I got on sale. As a result of that sale, the seller appears to be reluctant to go beyond a certain level of effort and expense. The seller continues to believe the shipper damaged it and didn't even respond to my questions about why it was shipped already assembled.

The jointer came with no power plug, so I bought the plug and cord and wired it.
I bought a Shelix head - which I may be able to return.
I bought a mobile base which is now used, which I probably can't return.
I will have to pay movers to get it out of my shop (bad back, I am not carrying that thing up stairs no matter how many people help me).
I will have to buy materials to crate it and spend time crating it (or I just don't crate it and let them come get it).

Regardless, for me to return it, I'll have potentially between $200 and $300 in expenses/losses. I assume they'll pay for return shipping, but I don't know.

I'd like to make this work out because I like General tools, and because of all the work involved in returning it. Maybe this is foolish of me. I'm still thinking about the whole thing.

My credit card account has been credited in the amount of the purchase. I assume because we are in the process of dispute.

I emailed General to find out if they offer factory rebuilds - that seems like a valid possibility if available. Maybe I'll also file a BBB claim.

I've invested so much effort in this farce that it bothers me to just give up and return it. I probably am being foolish.

[Chuck Wintle]

You may never get satisfaction at this stage. I would return it and also, as a previous poster noted, there may be other hidden damage to the machine.

[Phil Thien]

Can't you get the same model from another company (so you can use the Shelix)? I realize it may not be on sale, but common, you're risking all the bucks you've already got into it.

BTW, you have a limited amount of time to dispute a charge. How do you know they aren't running the clock down on you? At the very least file a dispute now and tell Redmond that you'll cancel once they make it right. You can do that.

[Mark Carlson]

Gary,

I'm not impressed with Redmonds response and wont be buying anything from them in the future. Good luck with getting your jointer fixed.

~mark

[Brad Townsend]

Let's see...It's 7:35 p.m CDT on Tuesday and so far this has generated 56 replies and had 3640 viewings. Do you think Redmond has ANY idea how much they are being hurt by this? And the longer it drags on the worse it gets.:rolleyes:

[Bart Leetch]

Cut your losses & let them deal with it. If you got your credit card credited & are not required to to pay I'd give the retailer a time limit to settle with the shipper & get it out of your basement. Tell them you will not be their store house & that they need to package it & remove it by X date or you'll scrap it.

I would never accept the half way offer they are trying to give you when you have no idea what else may be damaged all because it wasn't disassembled & packaged properly.

Do they know that you know that it wasn't disassembled & packaged properly?

These are just my thoughts.

[Gary Herrmann]

I just sent this to the guy at Redmond. I can't even get the jointer to run reliably without vibrating all over the place. After 3 hours down there, I've hit my limit. They can replace it or come get it. Here's the latest in this farce:


XXXX, I spent 3 hours downstairs working on that jointer tonight.

The motor housing the motor rests on appears to be bent. I cannot get the pulleys to align and be parallel, so the jointer vibrates terribly or won't start depending on how I adjust the pulleys or the motor mount. One of the large eye bolts used to secure and balance the motor to the cabinet is missing. Several nuts and washers for other parts were also missing.

This jointer is severely damaged and dangerous. I will not have it in my shop. Once again, I am requesting a replacement General 480 jointer.

I contacted General and the way this jointer was shipped to me is not the way jointers are shipped from the factory. General (as well as Powermatic the maker of my first jointer) ships jointers in two separate crates - the cabinet and motor are separated from the tables to avoid damage and breakage.

After ordering the jointer from you, I also ordered an HTC mobile base which is now used and unreturnable. I also ordered a shelix cutterhead for the jointer which I hope I can still return. I paid $150 to have movers carry the jointer down to the basement for me. I paid $25 for a 220v plug and power cord.

I have invested a substantial amount of my money over and above what I paid for this damaged jointer that was not disassembled and crated per General's own shipping policy. Floor model or not, it was damaged due to the fact it wasn't packaged correctly in the first place.

Rich, I just want what I paid for. A high quality jointer. Yes I got it on sale, but Redmond set the price, not me. I was told that I bought a new, undamaged jointer. The jointer in my shop is unusable. I am requesting a replacement for the third time.

To remove this jointer from my shop will require another $150 charge for the movers. I have a bad back. There is no way I am carrying that thing up the stairs. I do not have the crate any longer. If Redmond wants the jointer, I will need funds for crating it. I will not pay for shipping this jointer. I purchased it in good faith and with a timely payment and what I got is a damaged, dangerous tool.

I have taken the following steps:
I have contacted General to get their recommendations for repair/replacement.
I have contacted my credit card company to create a dispute.
I have contacted the BBB.

I am not trying to be a jerk or unduly harsh. I think I have been very patient, but after tonight, my patience has run out. Redmond has the opportunity to do the right thing and provide me what I was told I purchased.

If you won't replace it, please work something out with Old Dominion to come to my house and get it out of my basement. I have had my credit card company establish a dispute against Redmond Machinery. Payment has been stopped, or at least my account has been credited. Either way, I am not losing any more money or time on this jointer.

Regards,

Gary Herrmann

[John Grogan]

Sorry to hear about your problem. I had a similar problem with a table saw I ordered from amazon, but the outcome was different. I ordered a delta x5 unisaw and it arrived this past friday in a crushed box. I opened the box and inspected the saw and everything looked fine. However later I found that the trunnion has snapped and the motor was lying on the bottom of the saw. I emailed amazon about the problem and one day later they shipped a new one. It is scheduled to arrive next week.

I guess it does matter where you buy your stuff.

I hope everything works out

john

[Jake Helmboldt]

Bravo Gary. Even if they sent you all the parts you would then have to basically "build" the stupid thing, get everything aligned, etc. and still not be sure that it was right. That jointer will be an albatross around your neck should you keep it.

It bites to have to eat what you spent on the ancillary costs, but it will be better than keeping it, hating it, and regretting it.

Try to find another General or similar jointer that is compatible w/ the spiral head and maybe even the mobile base. If not, sell for a small loss or try to trade for what you need.

And lastly, stick to your guns on making them pay for crating and shipping. Tell the CC company all of these extenuating circumstances (costs) and you'll likely have a full refund and it will be incumbent upon Redmond to retrieve that piece o' scat.

[Dave Harker]

What a horrible experience. I'll never order from Redmond, since they failed to instantly ship you a factory-packaged replacement jointer. They should SEND someone to repair this one, if they think repair is the answer.

I hope you somehow end up with a great jointer, at no additional cost.

Good luck,
Dave

[Michael Schwartz]

Your doing the right thing. The jointer is toast, and will never be anywhere near the factory standards it was built too, let alone be safe.

You might be able to sell the mobile base localy on Craigslist and get a decent price for it to because of its condition (50-75%)

[Larry James]

Very informative thread with helpful info about "working the system" we all need to know.

I'm not familiar with Redmond Machinery, is this Wm. J. Redmond & Son, Inc. in Atlanta, GA?

Larry

[Geoff Irvine]

Sounds like you're moving in the right direction. For future purchases that are shipped common carrier remember to do the following. ALWAYS write on the ticket that you sign " ...... possible concealed damage". You will ALWAYS find a scrape,cut,scuff,ding, gouge, ect on the crate. So you write on the ticket "crate gouged (or whatever) possible concealed damage". No matter how minor just write it on the ticket!

Scott,
Whenever I take receipt of any delivery, sign for any work done on my car after an accident, my belongings from Australia via the movers, postal deliveries... anything that needs to be inspected in detail, I always write next to my name "SUBJECT TO INSPECTION" or "FOR RECORD PURPOSES ONLY". This offers me protection against this type of thing in English law. Is it different in the US? If not then I would suggest to anyone that this be their normal practice. As you note any external damage should also be noted e.g. the crushed box from Amazon.uk that contained a vinyl LP. Did I always do this? No- just learnt the hard way.
Gary - I didn't see if you had informed the seller of these posts (or did I miss it). If not then do so and see what the response is. May want to point out to him that a lot of people here visit multiple forums and it's 'a small world' ... 'easier to lose a reputation' etcetra. Anyway good luck.

[Norm Frampton]

Mr. Herrmann,
My name is Norm Frampton and I look after sales and marketing here at General and General International. I have personally just become aware of this unfortunate situation.
Please call me direct at 1-888-949-1161 ext#222 - I'd like to speak with you to discuss possible ways that we could be of assistance in working with your distributor to resolve this for you and get you up and running.

[Ted Miller]

I always write next to my name "SUBJECT TO INSPECTION" or "FOR RECORD PURPOSES ONLY". This offers me protection against this type of thing in English law. Is it different in the US? .

Geoff, Each freight company here in the US has its own rules for what can be "acceptable" on a bill of lading. Yellow Freight and the now defunked Consolidated Freight would not let you write "SJI" on any bill of lading. If you wanted to write it they would take the freight back to their terminal without a signature from the consignee. Then the shipper would be called by the freight company to decide what to do with the freight in question...

[gary rogers]

Almost 5000 views, I think their jerking around of a formerly good customer will lose them 100 times the cost of that jointer in lost sales to people that read this board. I know alot of people research companys like that before purchasing big ticket items and this thread will be on here for a long time. They won`t get a dime of my money!

[Nancy Laird]

I think it's interesting that it took up to 67 posts before anyone from General responded to Gary--but I also think that it's a plus that Mr. Frampton posted his direct telephone number for Gary to call him. I'd bet we see a positive resolution of this matter before too many more hours have passed. I hope Gary has gotten this message.

Ahhh, the power of SMC!!!!

Nancy

[Bruce Benjamin]

I think it's interesting that it took up to 67 posts before anyone from General responded to Gary--but I also think that it's a plus that Mr. Frampton posted his direct telephone number for Gary to call him. I'd bet we see a positive resolution of this matter before too many more hours have passed. I hope Gary has gotten this message.

Ahhh, the power of SMC!!!!

Nancy

I don't think there's any problem at all with it taking 67 posts for General to respond. Do you expect them to monitor all of the WW forums looking for ways to help? On the contrary, I think it's fantastic that Mr. Frampton made his first post to SMC such a helpful and encouraging post. I see no way what so ever to find fault with anyone other than Redmond in this thread. Even the freight company seems to be innocent in this case. Thank you Mr. Frampton and this kind of response will make me look at General in the future. Oh, and say, "Hi" to Peter for me!:D ;)

Bruce

[Jim O'Dell]

Nancy and others, I applaud Mr Frampton for stepping in here, especially when it doesn't sound like it is his company's problem. Note that this is his first post, and just joined SMC this month. My bet is that he joined to be able to try to lend a hand concerning this particular situataion. That is a good representative for a manufacturing company. No, I don't own any GI equipment, so this is not me backslapping something I already believe in. I'm with Nancy though, I can see something being worked out pretty quick. I hope Redmond steps up and is part of the solution, though. They NEED to be part of the solution. Jim.

[Mike Heidrick]

Mr. Herrmann,
My name is Norm Frampton and I look after sales and marketing here at General and General International. I have personally just become aware of this unfortunate situation.
Please call me direct at 1-888-949-1161 ext#222 - I'd like to speak with you to discuss possible ways that we could be of assistance in working with your distributor to resolve this for you and get you up and running.

Thankyou for posting this. General may save some purchases by helping Gary. We are a pretty tight knit group and there are plenty of people making tools. General on this board a standard by which many other tools are measured. This reinforces those claims of quality and customer satisfaction. Now if we can get Redmond to help out that would be even better.

[thomas prevost]

The collective power of SMC!! There has been note of this problem on two other wood forums I visit. Passed on by other SMC members. Thus, litterly thousands are now familar with the problem. Although the problem is with Redmond, it is giving General a black eye also. Thus when they became aware of it from other forums, it is good pr for them to respond."the right thing to do." Happy customers sell equipment!!

One great thing about SMC, EVERYONE has been civil with their responses offering advice and support. Apparently from the less than civil responses on other the other forum, this is not an isolated incident at Redmond.

[Bruce Benjamin]

I can't imagine what Redmond will be able to do at this point to fix the damage they've done to their reputation. If they stick to their guns, their dead. Even if they decide they've taken enough beating and step up to the plate, they're still in bad shape. You shouldn't have to work this hard and talk to this many people just to get a company to do the right thing. Obviously they don't get all of their business from WW forums but there's no doubt that they get some of it from WW forums. Well, at least they used to get some of their business from WW forums. :rolleyes:

Bruce

[Jim Grill]

You shouldn't have to work this hard and talk to this many people just to get a company to do the right thing.

Very well stated, Bruce.

It's obvious that the machine was damaged somewhere before being delivered and that's all that should matter in this situation.

[Gary Herrmann]

I just spoke to Mr. Frampton at General. He made a proposal to me that seems very reasonable. He is proposing that General provide me a floor model to replace the damaged one. General and Redmond will split the costs. I'll have to figure out a way to get the jointer up the stairs so the driver can take the damaged one back to General so it can be evaluated as to what caused the damage.

Mr. Frampton stated that he hoped he would be able to iron out the details and get back to me tomorrow.

I find this to be exceptional customer service and if it does work out this way, I will definitely be buying more General tools in the future. Well, if the CFO approves the purchases...

Stay tuned...

[Tim Morton]

480-1-M2 General 8" Jointer Display SOLD $3,049.00 $1,299.00

[Gary Herrmann]

Yes Tim, thats true. I've stated multiple times I got it on sale. Can I ask your point?

[CPeter James]

I have been following this thread and I hope that you make out OK on it. The General is a nice jointer but it is priced near the top of the field for one of that size and type. In perfect condition, it may be worth the price, but the one you have is no better that a $600 brand "X" that you bought on EBAY with no warranty. I have dealt with Norm Frampton in the past on a problem with a friend's CS and he was most helpful. He wants it to be right and he knows that he is selling a top priced product and it needs to be right to continue to demand the price. Redmond have shot themselves in the foot and while the loss of business may be small, it is among a group of people who spend a lot of big money on power tools.

CPeter

[Tim Morton]

Yes Tim, thats true. I've stated multiple times I got it on sale. Can I ask your point?

no point.....just posting it because I figured you might be getting bombarded by PM's asking the price. I would like to hear redmunds side of this story however, as I have as well as MANY people here dealt with them on a repeat basis and found them to be an OUTSTANDING company.

But no I do not doubt your version and i do not think that the deal should allow for a damage like that. Some rust or scratches yes...but not a broken wing.

[Andrew Williams]

480-1-M2 General 8" Jointer Display SOLD $3,049.00 $1,299.00

I tend to like to pay $0.00 for paperweights. If they happen to weigh more than me then I would hope to be paid for the service of dealing with them.

I also bought something at the Redmond sale and nothing went wrong in shipping. In fact, they were excellent to deal with. I am glad it was not a jointer because that was a lousy crating job to say the least. I am surprised there was not more damage done. The price should not be an issue. If a piece of machinery is sold as a floor model you should expect it to have some scratches and maybe a ding or something, and to have it be slightly "used" but it should carry the full manufacturer's warranty if sold as new. It should function just as well as a spotless new one from the factory.

[Maurice Ungaro]

I'll echo Tim's comment that I've found Redmond to be and OUTSTANDING copany. Granted, I dealt with them when I lived in the Atlanta area, and never had any machinery shipped. Having said that, I'd be leery of purchasing a floor model and getting it shipped to me. That's the kind of purchase that, in my opinion, requires in-store inspection.

I've bought a few of tools from Redmond, and two of the major ones were Delta recons. One was a Delta 768 dp. Came factory boxed, no problems. The other was a Delta 14" bs - they were running a special, and my bride bought it for me as an early Christmas present. Problem was that my garage wasn't yet built. No problem for Redmond - they told me that they warehouse purchased items for folks all the time. 6 months later, when I went to pick it up, there was a glitch: it had been sold to somebody AFTER it was sold to me. Redmond's solution? They upgraded me to the X5 verion at no extra cost. The salesman even delivered it to me on his way home.

Does Redmond have my business? You bet. Would I have them ship a floor model to me? Probably not, as I now live under 5 hours from Atlanta, and am willing to drive my F-250 there for a pick up. Pus, I'll be able to inspect what's in stock. I also know that if I can and purchase a floor model, I can have them hold the best one for me so I can see it before I take it home. If I'm not happy with it, they'll get me another one - heck, they'd probably cut me such a break on a new one that the difference would be negligible.

BTW, I'm curious as to who you've dealt with. Was it Scotty, Jack, Greg?

[Russ Massery]

The only way I could side with Redmond's is if it was sold "as is no warranty"
I've had machinery from Grizzly damaged in shipping. Always after the damaged parts were replaced they still asked if I was happy or would I like replacement.

[Bruce Benjamin]

It's interesting reading the replies in this thread from people who've had good service from Redmond and say they will continue to purchase from them. I remember some years ago here in my home town of about 80K a very popular GMC/Pontiac dealer was caught red handed selling, "Lemon Law" cars to customers without telling them their history. That's not only very dishonest but it's also illegal. They were fined a small amount but in my opinion they should've been closed for ever. Instead, there were letters to the editor in the paper from people saying the dealership always treated them right and that they just made a mistake. Well, I guess as long as they didn't personally get screwed by the business then it's ok. The guy that robs only one liquor store can't be that bad. I mean, he didn't rob my liquor store did he? Ok, maybe that's an extreme example.:rolleyes:

I realize that no business is perfect but some mistakes are handled so poorly that it's hard to believe that it's just an isolated incident. Some people are really forgiving, others are not. Redmond is on my fairly short list of companies that will never get my business. Oh, and so is that local car dealership.

Bruce

[Anthony Anderson]

[quote=Tim Morton;602859]no point.....just posting it because I figured you might be getting bombarded by PM's asking the price.

I was wondering your point as well Tim. I will play devil's advocate here. Let's just say that Redmond clearly stated that the jointer vibrates badly, is banged up, and one of the tables is broken and cannot be aligned, nor be made parallel, basically this thing is junk/boat anchor and will cost more to rebuild than one not discounted. Or possibly they clearly stated to Gary that they will not be responsible for any damages as a result of poor packaging or improper preparation for shipment on their part. I doubt either of these to be the case, but I will go with it anyway. I doubt, seriously, that Gary, or anyone else for that matter would have moved forward with the purchase. The price, at this point, is, IMO, irrelevant. If Redmond wanted more money for the machine, they should have raised the initital price. A machine was purchased that should be operable, and safely so, and that machine was not delivered in a condition as promised. This is where the problem lies. Not in the price. I question whether it was your place to post the price. If anyone was curious about the price, they could have searched Redmond's site, and easily found the price, as I, and obviously you, have done. With all due respect. Bill

[Tim Morton]

It's interesting reading the replies in this thread from people who've had good service from Redmond and say they will continue to purchase from them. I remember some years ago here in my home town of about 80K a very popular GMC/Pontiac dealer was caught red handed selling, "Lemon Law" cars to customers without telling them their history. That's not only very dishonest but it's also illegal. They were fined a small amount but in my opinion they should've been closed for ever. Instead, there were letters to the editor in the paper from people saying the dealership always treated them right and that they just made a mistake. Well, I guess as long as they didn't personally get screwed by the business then it's ok. The guy that robs only one liquor store can't be that bad. I mean, he didn't rob my liquor store did he? Ok, maybe that's an extreme example.:rolleyes:

I realize that no business is perfect but some mistakes are handled so poorly that it's hard to believe that it's just an isolated incident. Some people are really forgiving, others are not. Redmond is on my fairly short list of companies that will never get my business. Oh, and so is that local car dealership.

Bruce

Problem with your logic is that if you stopped buying from every store that had this kind of problem you would not be able to buy anything from anyone. I feel bad that this guy is not being taken care of, but i am sure eventually he will be. Unfortunately Redmunds may have decided that it is willing to risk future sales, against losing anymore money on this transation.

If i were the owner of the company I would have complete faith in my employees that they shipped a product without a broken wing. The shipping container showed no damage.....i would be wondering if the customer banged the jointer getting it down to the basement and then claimed that it arrived that way. I would expect anyone to uncrate the jointer and then seperate it from the base prior to moving it down the stairs...and thus notice the broken wing before it was moved and before he packign material was thrown away. (buyer claimes to no longer have the packing material...very strange as anyone knows never to throw away packing material when you have damage.)

But the buyer is trying to concinve redmunds he moved the jointer to the basment with the packing material in tack and then uncrated it and threw away all the packing material before then noticing the damage and then noticing the motor did not run properly. It seems like its possible something other than the buyers story is possible.

AGAIN....this is not what i am saying has happnened...i am just saying that this might be what redmunds is thinking....

[Mike Heidrick]

I'll have to figure out a way to get the jointer up the stairs so the driver can take the damaged one back to General so it can be evaluated as to what caused the damage.




Deliver that thing up the stairs the same way it was delivered to you, Roll it up there. Might hurt the floor though.

[Gary Herrmann]

Deliver that thing up the stairs the same way it was delivered to you, Roll it up there. Might hurt the floor though.

Um, nope. If I ding the floor or mess up the finish, then I have to deal with SWMBO. I'd rather try to carry that thing up the stairs with my teeth.

[Don Bullock]

I just spoke to Mr. Frampton at General. ...Mr. Frampton stated that he hoped he would be able to iron out the details and get back to me tomorrow.

I find this to be exceptional customer service and if it does work out this way...

Stay tuned...

Gary, that is certainly good news. We have a great company, Eagle Tools, here in Los Angeles that has super service. Their major line of tools is General. I'm very glad to hear that General is helping to assist with your problem. Since I've had great dealings with Eagle Tools, it's comforting to hear that the maker of the tools they sell stands behind their machines as well. Thanks for keeping us all posted. If this is resolved to your satisfaction with the assistance of General I will definately consider their tools for my future needs.

Mr. Frampton, welcome to Sawmill Creek. :D

[Jake Helmboldt]

I don't think Old Dominion is blameless in this; my guess is it got slammed down or dropped when being moved, resulting in both the broken iron, shifted motor, etc. The crate wouldn't show any real damage.

But the packing appears to have been inadequate on the part of Redmond as well. The two of them should have hashed that out between them and Redmond should have done what was needed to source a replacement to get Gary out of the middle of it.

I like the proselytizing Redmond does on their site. Perhaps they need to go back and re-learn the Golden Rule.

[Ted Miller]

Ok want to see a recent delivery from Old Dominion Freight on a Recumbant Exercise bike that cost $4,861.15. Now this item was dropped shipped from a third party vendor in Michigan and the trucking company in Michigan sub out the cross county ride to Old Dominon as 90% of trucking companies do. These pics were taken minutes after I lifted the item off the trailer.

Yup it happens on a daily basis were I work:

[Nancy Laird]

Ok want to see a recent delivery from Old Dominion Freight on a Recumbant Exercise bike that cost $4,861.15. Now this item was dropped shipped from a third party vendor in Michigan and the trucking company in Michigan sub out the cross county ride to Old Dominon as 90% of trucking companies do. These pics were taken minutes after I lifted the item off the trailer.

Yup it happens on a daily basis were I work:

THAT'S how it was shipped??????:eek: Yikes. I thought moving companies who "cater" to the military were bad.:( :(

Nancy

[Ted Miller]

Nancy, I took the pics after I took the item from the trailer, this is exactly how it was on the truck.

Trust me I have seen much worse. This is why you inspect, inspect, inspect the item to death.

When I sent the pics to the vendor who we purchased this item from they were shocked a bit but they re shipped a new item yesterday out to me already and claims will be out today to do their inspection.

This makes my point that no freight company will repack an item no matter how damaged it looks. They pickup and deliver, thats it...

[Bruce Benjamin]

Problem with your logic is that if you stopped buying from every store that had this kind of problem you would not be able to buy anything from anyone.

Really? You're saying that every company has treated enough of it's customers they way this way that it's eventually made it to my ears/eyes? Sorry, but I just don't believe that every company screws it's customers this way. I'm not saying that there aren't dissatisfied customers with every company but frequently that's the customer's fault. I guess bad service is in the eyes of the customer and it's very apparent that you and I have a very different vision of what bad customer service is.

I feel bad that this guy is not being taken care of, but i am sure eventually he will be.

I would say that if I were the customer right now, there's very little that Redmond could do to make me feel, "Taken care of" at this point. The time has been lost. The blood pressure has been raised. And Gary still has to get that POS back up the stairs, into a crate of some sort, and wait and wait again for the shipper to show up again. And that's the best likely scenario. You have a very, very long fuse, Tim.

Unfortunately Redmunds may have decided that it is willing to risk future sales, against losing anymore money on this transation.

In your previous sentence you said that you were sure he would be taken care of. Not so sure now, I guess. I don't consider Redmond losing money a valid reason to not take care of a problem that was their responsibility.


If i were the owner of the company I would have complete faith in my employees that they shipped a product without a broken wing. The shipping container showed no damage.....i would be wondering if the customer banged the jointer getting it down to the basement and then claimed that it arrived that way. I would expect anyone to uncrate the jointer and then seperate it from the base prior to moving it down the stairs...and thus notice the broken wing before it was moved and before he packign material was thrown away. (buyer claimes to no longer have the packing material...very strange as anyone knows never to throw away packing material when you have damage.)

But the buyer is trying to concinve redmunds he moved the jointer to the basment with the packing material in tack and then uncrated it and threw away all the packing material before then noticing the damage and then noticing the motor did not run properly. It seems like its possible something other than the buyers story is possible.

AGAIN....this is not what i am saying has happnened...i am just saying that this might be what redmunds is thinking....

In a previous post you said, "But no I do not doubt your version and i do not think that the deal should allow for a damage like that. Some rust or scratches yes...but not a broken wing." Regardless of your qualification at the end of this post, it really sounds to me like you've thought this out and don't believe the OP. That's your right of course. But I don't agree and I can't really see how you came up with the scenario of how Gary is at fault at all. Are you possibly a defense attorney? :rolleyes: You seem to have a flair for making the victim look like the one at fault. I don't think that a company with good customer service should be trying this hard to figure out how the customer is lying to them and to thousands of other wood workers. I think they should refund they guy's money at least and do what they can to make it easy for him to ship the jointer back. I'll bet if they ever screw you like this you won't be so easy on Redmond.

Bruce

[Gary Herrmann]

Norm Frampton called me back this morning. He has come to an agreement with Redmond. General will ship out a replacment floor model 480 jointer to me. General and Redmond will split the shipping costs. I just need to get the damaged jointer up stairs and the driver will put it on the pallet the replacement arrives on.

The damaged jointer will go back to General so they can evaluate it and try to determine what happened.

Mr. Frampton will call me with additional information regarding shipping dates etc, once those details get nailed down.

General has done a great job of stepping in (unsolicited, no less) and working with Redmond to resolve this situation for me. This cements them in my mind as not only a vendor of high quality tools, but also one with extraordinary customer service.

I will post pics of the replacement jointer when it arrives. Hopefully an asteroid doesn't crash into the truck while its on the way...

And yes, I will follow the advice given in this thread about inspecting and signing for it when it arrives.

[Andrew Williams]

you would get to name the asteroid though...

[Tim Morton]

In a previous post you said, "But no I do not doubt your version and i do not think that the deal should allow for a damage like that. Some rust or scratches yes...but not a broken wing." Regardless of your qualification at the end of this post, it really sounds to me like you've thought this out and don't believe the OP. That's your right of course. But I don't agree and I can't really see how you came up with the scenario of how Gary is at fault at all. Are you possibly a defense attorney? :rolleyes: You seem to have a flair for making the victim look like the one at fault. I don't think that a company with good customer service should be trying this hard to figure out how the customer is lying to them and to thousands of other wood workers. I think they should refund they guy's money at least and do what they can to make it easy for him to ship the jointer back. I'll bet if they ever screw you like this you won't be so easy on Redmond.

Bruce

I really don't mean to sound like i don't believe him...and I was not defending anyone. I was pointing out how the person at redmund "MIGHT" be thinking...

[Mark Rios]

you would get to name the asteroid though...

ROFL......

[Dan Lee]

Who ever packaged it and thought it was a good idea to support the beds at the very ends IMHO wasn't very bright. That looks to have the potential to put a lot of stress right where the missing piece is.
Dan

BTW At this point in the pics it looks like its still in the garage?

[Nancy Laird]

Norm Frampton called me back this morning. He has come to an agreement with Redmond. General will ship out a replacment floor model 480 jointer to me. General and Redmond will split the shipping costs. I just need to get the damaged jointer up stairs and the driver will put it on the pallet the replacement arrives on.



Gary, I had a feeling that after you heard from Mr. Frampton, this would be resolved quickly. Good for him!!! :) (Applause)

As far as getting the jointer up the stairs, I suspect that if you go to the Union Mission or some similar place and offer four guys $20 each to get it moved, you'd almost have a stampede to your house. I know...that's another expense that you don't want to bear, but unless you have four burly neighbors/friends who want to spend a Saturday wrestling the old one up the stairs and more time getting the new one down, it would probably be money well-spent. It's near enough to the weekend--you might put out the word at church on Sunday among the teen-aged boys who might want a little pocket money. Call the local high school football coach--I'd bet he could find about 4-6 linebackers who would move it. Give me enough time I could probably make some more suggestions, but I'll let you pick your own brain for a while.:D

Nancy

[Gary Herrmann]

Who ever packaged it and thought it was a good idea to support the beds at the very ends IMHO wasn't very bright. That looks to have the potential to put a lot of stress right where the missing piece is.
Dan

BTW At this point in the pics it looks like its still in the garage?

Dan those are the pics I took right after delivery, when it was in the garage.

[Scot wolf]

"General will ship out a replacment floor model 480 jointer to me."

Great! another "floor model"

[Jim Heffner]

I posted a few weeks ago that I purchased a General 8" jointer and and a General 14" planer on sale at Redmond Machinery.

What I didn't post was that the jointer arrived damaged. I had assumed that either Redmond Machinery or the shipper (Old Dominion Freight Lines)would make it right for me. That was my 2nd mistake. The broken off piece was not in the crate.

I don't like rants. I am ranting, but I'm also posting it so some of you can learn from my mistake. Examine everything you order in minute detail before you sign for it. Dismantle the crate while its on the truck if you have to. Do NOT sign the form unless you are 100% certain no damage has occurred.

I've ordered 6 machines and had them shipped - 3 from Redmond. This is the first time I've ever had anything damaged. Lesson learned.

Following is the email I just sent to Redmond Machinery.


XXXX,


Old Dominion has also denied my claim. I find it hard to believe that the shipper denied my claim merely because I accepted the jointer. I accepted it because I didn't see the damage while it was in the crate, or I wouldn't have accepted it in the first place. Now the shipping company tells me there is no evidence of breakage occurring during shipping. So, with both companies involved denying responsibility for the breakage, the consumer has to just deal with it.


I find that to be completely ridiculous and unacceptable. Granted I got the jointer at a good price, but the damage will affect the price at which I am able to sell it in the future, should I ever decide to do so. It also affects the smoothness with which I can adjust the outfeed table. I selected the General jointer for its quality and that quality has been compromised.



I've purchased 3 machines from Redmond Machinery. Clearly, I am going to have to be very careful of who I order from and who ships me my tools in the future, or I will just have to buy locally.

Gary, you should contact Old Dominion Freight Lines OS&D dept.
and ask for their chief claims agent and tell them about this problem
and tell him that this item had "concealed damage" when it was delivered
and you were not aware of the damage until unit was uncrated and inspected. He will want to to know the bill of lading/ delivery receipt #
date of delivery, and driver's name who made delivery and maybe a few other questions and let them try and resolve it for you. They have a
minimum $1,000,000 cargo liability insurance in force at all times to protect them against claims and to handle them when they can and do
come up. Don't let them b###s you around here, tell them you want this claim resolved in a timely manner and fashion. They will do something
but it may take a couple of weeks to get it resolved to your satisfaction.
When this shipment was originally picked up, it was shipped by customer
and signed for by the driver who picked it up, he signed the bill of lading as accepting the merchandise with NO DAMAGE, concealed or expressed
on the bill of lading. It was suppost to be handled and delivered as same.

Old Dominion's chief OS&D may be in High Point, N.C. their home office used to be located in Richmond,VA but I understand they moved to N.C. a few years ago. I'm giving this advice as a former truckdriver with 23 yrs.
experience here. Sorry about the long post...but hope this will help
Jim Heffner

[Mike Heidrick]

Jim, General is fixing this.

Gary, call the local piano/furniture movers in your area - Will cost $50-$60 and they will get that jointer upstairs for you. That or call on the neighbors and pay their teenage kids!

[Tim Morton]

"General will ship out a replacment floor model 480 jointer to me."

Great! another "floor model"


thats what he PAID for in the beginnning...you want he should get a brand new one?:confused: :confused:

[Chuck Wintle]

"General will ship out a replacment floor model 480 jointer to me."

Great! another "floor model"
I would expect that a floor model should be in perfect operating condition although it may have some cosmetic damage like scratches. The other jointer was unusable as delivered.

[Rod Upfold]

A lot of companies forget or don't care...

It takes a long time to get a good company reputation...but a very short time to destroy or get a bad company reputation


Rod

[Gary Herrmann]

This is the latest email I received today:

My only question was how the jointer would be shipped to me, so I know how much I need to dismantle it in preparation.

Dear Mr. Herrmann,
This email is to confirm the details of the phone conversation that you had with Norman Frampton of General Mfg. on 06/14/2007 in regards to the replacement of your damaged jointer.
Wm. J. Redmond & Son, Inc. & General Mfg. have agreed:
· To ship you a replacement jointer at no cost to you.
· The replacement jointer will be a General Mfg. Model 480, identical to the one that was damaged in shipping.
· The replacement jointer, like the one damaged, is a new machine that has been on display. The replacement jointer has been on display in General Mfg.'s showroom.
· The replacement jointer will be shipped from General Mfg. to you at the following address; Gary Herrmann, XXX Main Street.
General Mfg. has agreed:
· To package the replacement jointer in a manner safe for transport and in a manner that will make it as easy as possible for the packaging to be used for repackaging the damaged jointer.
· To, upon receipt of the damaged jointer, inspect the jointer and attempt to determine the cause of the damage.
· To document their findings and forward them to you - for further forwarding to the Old Dominion Claims department, in an effort to facilitate a payment towards the claim filed.
You have agreed:
· To thoroughly inspect the replacement jointer for freight damage before accepting/signing for it.
· To disassemble the damaged jointer, as necessary, and have it ready to package for return shipping to General Mfg. upon receipt of the replacement jointer.
· To make use of the packing materials used to ship the replacement jointer in order to properly package the damaged jointer for return shipping to General Mfg.
· To receive the replacement jointer and ship the damaged jointer on the same day - making use of the same freight truck.
· To make your own arrangements for getting the damaged jointer out of your basement, prior to being picked up by the freight company, and your own arrangements for getting the replacement jointer into your basement - both at your own expense, if necessary.
· To, upon receipt and thorough inspection of the replacement jointer, contact your credit card company and inform them that your order has been completed to your satisfaction. Informing the credit card company that you agree to the charges originally placed on your account, thus cancelling the dispute you have already filed - or - allowing Redmond to reprocess the charges, if necessary, in order to ensure that Redmond is financially compensated as originally agreed upon.
· To continue to pursue the claim filed with Old Dominion, making use of any documentation that General Mfg. provides to help support the claim.
· To forward any funds awarded as a result of the claim filed with Old Dominion to Wm. J. Redmond & Son, Inc.
· To post a favorable message about Wm. J. Redmond & Son, Inc. and General Mfg. in regards to the manner in which they handled your situation to your satisfaction.
Please respond to the above as quickly as possible. General Mfg. has already contacted a freight carrier about shipping the replacement jointer and tracking information should be available as early as Monday 06/18/22207.
Sincerely,
XXXX
Wm. J. Redmond & Son, Inc.

[Jason Beam]

Lookin' good, gary ... I'd be a little nervous about having to unpack the new and then repack the old machine while the driver sits there waiting on you. I'd get flustered and in a hury...plus wouldn't this mean you'll need helpers to remove the whole machine from the packing material? If it's on a pallet, for example?

Hopefully it's packed better than the first one and it's in managable pieces.

[Chuck Wintle]

Gary,
When the new jointer arrives it might bbe a good idea to have a couple of friends to help plus inspect the new machine for damage. 3 pairs of eyes is better than 1 pair of eyes for that sort of thing. :D

[Andrew Williams]

That last clause in the contract is very interesting....I would not have expected it. I wonder if the fact that this saga is airing out in an open woodworkers' forum is a big part of why this issue is being resolved quickly.

I would certainly like to hear what General's findings are regarding what actually happened. My guess is that it was dropped on it's side or slammed down. Anyone want to take bets on Redmond changing their mode of crating for jointers from this point on? I would have assumed that in order to ship a jointer you would have to at least remove the tables and lay them upside-down on a supporting structure.

[Steven Wilson]

That sounds fairly reasonable. You might want to give general a call and ask them how they are going to pack it. My guess is that the jointer top and fence will be on a pallet and that the cabinet and motor assembly will be in a box. So, I would expect that you'll get a delivery of two items. It's fairly typical for this class of jointer to be packaged like that. Or better yet, have them snap a picture of the unit on the loading dock and have them email it to you (MiniMax Eric did that for me).

[Bob Opsitos]

This is the latest email I received today:

· To post a favorable message about Wm. J. Redmond & Son, Inc. and General Mfg. in regards to the manner in which they handled your situation to your satisfaction.



Proof the forum has power.

Good for you.

Bob

[Tom Veatch]

...Or better yet, have them snap a picture of the unit on the loading dock and have them email it to you (MiniMax Eric did that for me).

Very good idea! That way, at least some of the reshipment preparation can be done ahead of time. Delivery driver might be getting a little surly after cooling his heels for a couple of hours waiting for the repackaging to be completed - especially if he's not expecting it.

[Mark Carlson]

Do they really expect you to continue to pursue the claim with Old Dominion? Redmonds didn't ship the jointer correctly so let them pursue Old Dominion. Posting a favorable message on General would be easy. Redmonds not so much.


~mark

[Bruce Benjamin]

I would have a problem with having to unpack the new one and then repack the old one in such a hurry. That doesn't seem too fair to me since those things can be pretty heavy, as you already know. I'd renegotiate that part of the deal. I'm sure the driver won't be happy about it either. How much time will you have to accomplish this? Start in the morning, finish in the afternoon? They should just schedule a separate pick up at your convenience.

Being forced to continue to negotiate a claim with the shipper sounds unfair to me too. You weren't the person at fault with this. Redmond was. Let them deal with it.

And finally, about having to make a positive post about the transaction. The way I see it, this has cost you so much time and effort and possibly some $$ if you need to hire help to move the jointer. Don't forget additional time off work. All this just to get a jointer that was most likely doomed before it even was loaded onto the truck. Now you have to go through the whole process again and none of this was your fault. Oh yeah, it's been a real positive experience and Redmond has handled it beautifully. :rolleyes:

I'm sure you'll be glad to get what you originally paid for and be done with this. I just don't see how Redmond has done you any favors with this ordeal. At least when Sunhill screwed up my order they compensated me with 2 free sets of knives and a free mobile base. They also added numerous apologies and the offer of a complete refund. They did screw up big time but they did everything I could reasonably expect them to do. I guess about the only thing more they could've done was reimburse me for the 1 day, (total) I lost from work. I doubt anyone would do that though. Sorry, but Redmond is still never going to get a dime of my money, especially after seeing their list of demands.

Good luck and I hope your new jointer is a lot better. General really came to the rescue with this one.

Bruce

[Phil Thien]

To post a favorable message about Wm. J. Redmond & Son, Inc. and General Mfg. in regards to the manner in which they handled your situation to your satisfaction.


They lost me right there. I'd tell 'em to pickup their bad jointer and I'd find another company to deal with.

[Don Bullock]

This is the latest email I received today:

My only question was how the jointer would be shipped to me, so I know how much I need to dismantle it in preparation.

Dear Mr. Herrmann,
This email is to confirm the details of the phone conversation that you had with Norman Frampton of General Mfg. on 06/14/2007 in regards to the replacement of your damaged jointer.
Wm. J. Redmond & Son, Inc. & General Mfg. have agreed:


yada...yada...yada...


Sincerely,
XXXX
Wm. J. Redmond & Son, Inc.

I find it very interesting that this email is from Redmond, not General Mfg. If I had received it I would have called Norm Frampton back and told him that they could have the damaged machine and the whole deal is off. The way I see it Redmond is making unacceptable demands and hurting both their reputation and that of General even further. What right do they have to make such demands? Absolutely none! If they had done their job right you wouldn't be in this mess and you'd be enjoying your woodworking. Instead you have a big piece of broken equipment taking up space in your shop and, I'm sure, a lot of headaches.

Gary, you have been more than patient on this deal gone sour. It's time, in my opinion, to play your trump card. Dispute the charges through your credit card and tell Redmond to come get their damaged goods or you'll start charging them rent for the space. I'm sure you have other woodworking machine dealers in your area with better customer relations. If you don't, I know that Eagle Tools in Los Angelas has sold machines in many parts of the country. They sell General tools and are absolutely "the best" in customer service. Give Ricky or Jesse a call.

[DAVID CASHDAN]

If It Was Me In This Situation, I Would Take My Sweet Time Inspecting And Uncrating, Maybe Take An Hour Or Two For Lunch, Then Take My Time Crating The Broken One...........
The Driver Is Probably Paid By The Hour , And You Are Not Paying For The Shipping..............:d

They Haven't Gone Out Of Their Way To Help You , Just Return The Favor...........................:)


Dave

[Bruce Benjamin]

They lost me right there. I'd tell 'em to pickup their bad jointer and I'd find another company to deal with.

Well said. They're treating you as if they're doing you a favor after you screwed up. Don't be intimidated by their tactics. Whether or not you take their offer you're still going to have to do the same amount of work to return the POS jointer and after the CC company backcharges them they're still going to have to send a truck to pick up the jointer. Continue on with the dispute with you CC company and buy from someone else. You have options other than what they have demanded. I'm assuming Redmond is monitoring this thread and they can't be too pleased with the responses. What are they thinking? Unbelievable!

Bruce

[Matt Meiser]

I agree with everyone above. Any company that treats customers like they are ripping them off REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY THINK is not a good company in my mind. Even if they think you are ripping them of unless or until they think they have PROOF, they should keep their mouths shut. Sounds to me like General needs to do a review of their distributors and make sure they are only working with companies that have their best interests in mind.

And hopefully someone from Redmond is watching because they are seeing a LOT of money going down the drain. It would have been SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper for them to have overnighted Gary a brand new jointer a few weeks ago than this is going to cost them now.

[Lloyd McKinlay]

Redmond is completely unreasonable, and childish, in their demands. I wonder if the freight company knows their driver will be wasting a couple hours while the machines are repacked.

The letter from Redmond tells me all I need to know about their company. To send something like that after much thought and deliberation is incredible.

[Jim O'Dell]

I think I'd ammend the contract's last line to say that General Machinery will get a favorable write up because Mr Frampton stepped in and came up with a quick and fair solution to the problem, and that you will acknowledge in the same post that Redmond did finally step up and take part of the responsibility for making this right. The bad thing is that they had to be, is prodded the right word here ?, by the manufacturer to participate in making this right. I couldn't in good conscious give them a favorable writeup. It is what they made it to be. Anyone following this thread will already know that. To state otherwise is a slap in the face of what is right and wrong. If their version of the contract is the only way they will make this right, I think I'd pass and ask for my credit card to be credited or dispute it with the credit card company if need be. It just comes across like they are holding you hostage and want their demands met. It's like they still don't understand the customer/business relationship, and that the product was damaged, what looks to be like from an internet view, before it was shipped. If not, at least because of the way it was packaged for shipping. (I'm not sure if the broken piece was found in the unit/packaging, or if it was gone when the item arrived, or if it was just cracked.)
My 2 cents worth. Jim.

[tim mathis]

i am going to purchase a jointer soon and it won't be from redmond.

[Scot wolf]

I think I'd ammend the contract's last line to say that General Machinery will get a favorable write up because Mr Frampton stepped in and came up with a quick and fair solution to the problem, and that you will acknowledge in the same post that Redmond did finally step up and take part of the responsibility for making this right. The bad thing is that they had to be, is prodded the right word here ?, by the manufacturer to participate in making this right. I couldn't in good conscious give them a favorable writeup. It is what they made it to be. Anyone following this thread will already know that. To state otherwise is a slap in the face of what is right and wrong. If their version of the contract is the only way they will make this right, I think I'd pass and ask for my credit card to be credited or dispute it with the credit card company if need be. It just comes across like they are holding you hostage and want their demands met. It's like they still don't understand the customer/business relationship, and that the product was damaged, what looks to be like from an internet view, before it was shipped. If not, at least because of the way it was packaged for shipping. (I'm not sure if the broken piece was found in the unit/packaging, or if it was gone when the item arrived, or if it was just cracked.)
My 2 cents worth. Jim.

That is about the way I view it as well. If it were me, I would ship it back on there dime. And order another machine from a company that does have good CS. I wonder if you would have ordered a Griz and this happened how they would have handled it. Heck, you could have a NEW 490 for way less than you have in that thing.

[Al Willits]

Who's at fault or is this the complete story?
Not sure if anybody but the parties involved know the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so we post our opinions on what we know, if we needed the complete story from both parties, I'd think this would be about a one post topic.
We deal with what info we have and hope its as correct as possible.....:)

Imho....
Should he get a new jointer? Nope..He bought a demo and that's what he should get, I see many posts talking about the company doing the right thing, but we may have forgot if he'd inspected the jointer asap and sent it back or reported it damaged he wouldn't have had to drag it down and back up the stairs, crying shame he has to go though all that though.

It sounds like once the higher ups at General found out there was a problem, they came up with appears to be a workable and fair compromise for Gary.

I think I'd be a bit miffed at the dealer who sent it out shipped like it was, my 8" York came in two packages and were packaged so well I think they'd go though just about anything with out damage.

Quite the learning experience though, and I have to admit when my jointer and planer came I didn't uncrate to inspect....I will from now on though.

I'm not sure if anybody will be happy at the final outcome, but it seems like a fair compromise was reached.

Hopefully all works out for ya Gary, good luck.
Thanks to the people at General for responding, always a good sign.

Al

[Randal Stevenson]

I posted a few weeks ago that I purchased a General 8" jointer and and a General 14" planer on sale at Redmond Machinery.

What I didn't post was that the jointer arrived damaged. I had assumed that either Redmond Machinery or the shipper (Old Dominion Freight Lines)would make it right for me. That was my 2nd mistake. The broken off piece was not in the crate.




I don't have time to read this completely right now (off to work), but, YOU saw the package, WAS THERE A HOLE IN IT?

If not, I think that damage could have fallen through General's quality control, as I doubt everything sent to a dealer/wholesaler/etc, gets unboxed/crated and checked before repacking and shipping.

Please contact General as well.
I know your po'd and lessons learned, but more then one way to approach this.

[Randy Kramer]

I don't have time to read this completely right now (off to work), but, YOU saw the package, WAS THERE A HOLE IN IT?

If not, I think that damage could have fallen through General's quality control, as I doubt everything sent to a dealer/wholesaler/etc, gets unboxed/crated and checked before repacking and shipping.

Please contact General as well.
I know your po'd and lessons learned, but more then one way to approach this.
Therein lies the problem with replying without reading the entire story.

[Tim Morton]

I don't have time to read this completely right now (off to work), but, YOU saw the package, WAS THERE A HOLE IN IT?

If not, I think that damage could have fallen through General's quality control, as I doubt everything sent to a dealer/wholesaler/etc, gets unboxed/crated and checked before repacking and shipping.

Please contact General as well.
I know your po'd and lessons learned, but more then one way to approach this.


The packaging was fine...the lesson is that this all would have been avoided if the OP had taken 5 minutes to open the crate before signing for the unit.

[Alex Berkovsky]

The packaging was fine...the lesson is that this all would have been avoided if the OP had taken 5 minutes to open the crate before signing for the unit.I recently purchased a Grizzly bandsaw; it was crated solid. I will say that it took me a long time to uncrate it, assemble and test. If there is no visible damage to the crate and packaging material, does it mean that there won't be any damage to the machine? I doubt that the truck driver will stick around until the machine is uncrated and inspected.

[Tim Morton]

I recently purchased a Grizzly bandsaw; it was crated solid. I will say that it took me a long time to uncrate it, assemble and test. If there is no visible damage to the crate and packaging material, does it mean that there won't be any damage to the machine? I doubt that the truck driver will stick around until the machine is uncrated and inspected.

The trucker has no choice...especially when its the policy of the shipper that once you sign for it, you own it. I have recieved dozens of large pacakges. Generally a screw gun will get you inside within a minute or two. The OP said he has recieved 6 large packages...so he must own a cordless drill.:) Look at the pics ...it was a 2x4 frame with im guessing USB or plywood screwed to it.

[Gary Herrmann]

The packaging was fine...the lesson is that this all would have been avoided if the OP had taken 5 minutes to open the crate before signing for the unit.


The OP said he has recieved 6 large packages...so he must own a cordless drill.:) Look at the pics ...it was a 2x4 frame with im guessing USB or plywood screwed to it.

The crate was put together with a framing nailer. It didn't just take 5 minutes to get it apart. There were two crates, not six. One for the jointer, one for the planer.

Tim, I've already stated a couple times that the lesson for me here is to open the crate before signing for the item. If I had seen the damage, I wouldn't have signed for the jointer. I've never stated otherwise.

[Phil Thien]

The trucker has no choice...especially when its the policy of the shipper that once you sign for it, you own it. I have recieved dozens of large pacakges. Generally a screw gun will get you inside within a minute or two. The OP said he has recieved 6 large packages...so he must own a cordless drill.:) Look at the pics ...it was a 2x4 frame with im guessing USB or plywood screwed to it.

I receive palletized freight all the time. You are welcome to accept or reject a pallet. You can accept a pallet with a notation of damage. But unless prior arrangements are made or there are extenuating circumstances, trucking companies don't let you unpack merchandise before deciding if you're going to sign for it.

[Bruce Benjamin]

I don't have time to read this completely right now (off to work), but, YOU saw the package, WAS THERE A HOLE IN IT?

If not, I think that damage could have fallen through General's quality control, as I doubt everything sent to a dealer/wholesaler/etc, gets unboxed/crated and checked before repacking and shipping.

Please contact General as well.
I know your po'd and lessons learned, but more then one way to approach this.

Sorry Randal, but none of this is correct. All three points have been addressed and answered.

No hole in the box. It was a floor model that Redmond repacked. This isn't General's fault. They're the ones that tried to come to the rescue.

Bruce

[Bruce Benjamin]

Who's at fault or is this the complete story?
Not sure if anybody but the parties involved know the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so we post our opinions on what we know, if we needed the complete story from both parties, I'd think this would be about a one post topic.
We deal with what info we have and hope its as correct as possible.....:)

I don't think there's much doubt as to what the truth in this matter is. Is anyone disputing what really took place? Since the only person involved with this that has posted to this is the OP, he's the only person who would have the opportunity to tell less than the complete story. I don't see that as being the case at all.

Imho....
Should he get a new jointer? Nope..He bought a demo and that's what he should get, I see many posts talking about the company doing the right thing, but we may have forgot if he'd inspected the jointer asap and sent it back or reported it damaged he wouldn't have had to drag it down and back up the stairs, crying shame he has to go though all that though.

From what I understand, he didn't buy a, "Demo". He bought a floor model. There is a difference. And that is what he's going to get from General.

I really can't see how any of this can be viewed as Gary's fault, as you are doing. I really don't believe that anyone should be required to uncrate a machine before signing for it unless there is some signs of damage to the crate. Sometimes where just don't have the time to do that. I've received large items via truck that I only had time to briefly look over and then sign for. No damage on the outside, gotta go back to work. And I didn't think that this jointer going down the stairs was the main focal point of this whole ordeal. The main problem is with Redmond expecting Gary to rebuild this POS jointer for them piece by piece.

It sounds like once the higher ups at General found out there was a problem, they came up with appears to be a workable and fair compromise for Gary.

I think General did everything right except for the part where they are still letting Redmond dictate the details of the deal. They should've been more involved with the details since it's obvious Redmond is too lame to do it right. That being said, I think that it's great that General stepped up like they did.


I think I'd be a bit miffed at the dealer who sent it out shipped like it was, my 8" York came in two packages and were packaged so well I think they'd go though just about anything with out damage.

Bingo! This is the point to the whole thing. It's Redmond who caused this whole thing to begin with. I don't see any of this as being Gary's fault. He did what I would consider to be a reasonable inspection of the crate. If someone runs a red light and slams into my car they caused the problem. If I try to get out and aggravate a neck injury it's still entirely the other persons fault. Getting out of the car isn't an unreasonable action. Gary waiting to open the crate is the same thing, in my opinion. He didn't do anything unreasonable.

Quite the learning experience though, and I have to admit when my jointer and planer came I didn't uncrate to inspect....I will from now on though.

Do you think that every truck driver will wait while you open the crate? Do you think they will even let you? Some might but I'll bet that some won't.

I've driven for 2 companies as a delivery driver. For the most part I hauled steel and pipe. But I also delivered a lot of machinery. I didn't have the time to wait around for a customer to unpack the machinery unless there was some damage. There never was damage because I was careful. But I also wasn't required to wait around no matter what the customer thought. When I had 10 to 20 stops a day I had to keep moving if I was going to get done on time. Granted, neither companies I drove for were a contract delivery company. But the end result was the same. Contract delivery companies have the same time constraints that I had.

If a driver gives you the chance to open it, great. But don't be surprised if he doesn't.

I'm not sure if anybody will be happy at the final outcome, but it seems like a fair compromise was reached.

I sure wouldn't be happy with the final outcome if it were me. And I wouldn't think that I was being treated fairly after I received that ridiculous list of demands from Redmond. To me that would be the last straw. Pick it up and give me my money back! Gary shouldn't have to compromise. He paid them for a product that wasn't in the condition it was promised.

Hopefully all works out for ya Gary, good luck.
Thanks to the people at General for responding, always a good sign.

Al

At least we can completely agree on this one Al.:) I know that's going to help you sleep better at night. :rolleyes: ;) :D

Bruce

[Bruce Benjamin]

I receive palletized freight all the time. You are welcome to accept or reject a pallet. You can accept a pallet with a notation of damage. But unless prior arrangements are made or there are extenuating circumstances, trucking companies don't let you unpack merchandise before deciding if you're going to sign for it.

This has pretty much been my experience too, Phil. Whether I was in the receiving department or the one doing the delivery, "Keep it moving!" was the theme. What would the driver think if you were to unpack a crate that looks in good condition? Once it's unpacked it may be hard to repack and then what? If there's damage to the crate then they could either allow you to refuse the order based on that or they may allow you to unpack it partially. But unpacking every crate you get regardless of it's condition won't happen with most drivers and anyone who thinks so is, shall we say, "Optimistic".:rolleyes: How is the equipment supposed to be repacked for the return? And how long is it going to take? Some people aren't very realistic.

Bruce

[Bruce Benjamin]

The trucker has no choice...especially when its the policy of the shipper that once you sign for it, you own it. I have recieved dozens of large pacakges. Generally a screw gun will get you inside within a minute or two. The OP said he has recieved 6 large packages...so he must own a cordless drill.:) Look at the pics ...it was a 2x4 frame with im guessing USB or plywood screwed to it.


Actually, the trucker does have a choice. I too have received dozens of large packages. Actually, many hundreds of large packages for two different companies. Unless there's an obvious reason to unpack the crate or box, they aren't usually going to wait. And more often than not, a screw gun won't do it. What I received usually was nailed shut. The large crates I've received at my house were all nailed shut too.

Just because the shipper requires you to sign for something doesn't mean that you run the whole show until you do sign. If the package shows no signs of damage to the outside, why should you be allowed to open the package? If there's no damage to the outside then it's unlikely that the damage was done by the shipper. That's not the case every time but usually it's so. If you can do it quickly and not compromise the packaging you might get away with it sometimes. It's not a perfect system, that's for sure but the trucking companies aren't trying to rip off the customers either.

Bruce

[Al Willits]

""""""
At least we can completely agree on this one Al.:) I know that's going to help you sleep better at night. :rolleyes: ;) :D

Bruce
"""""""""

u betcha.....:)


I post my opinions, they're not always right, but they're not always wrong...just my opinions.

There was some posts as I read them, that we may not have the whole story, my response wasn't whether he was telling the truth or not, but that we can only respond to what we read.

Sorry should have been floor model, I stand corrected, but I figured most would catch the meaning that he shouldn't expect a "new" unit.

Fault? no probably not, but if he'd have looked at the unit before dragging it downstairs he wouldn't have been out the added time and expense that he was upset about, that's where I fault him.
I bet he looks before he drags anything else down the stairs, least after this I would......probably..:)

Don't think I commented on Redwood's demands, but I think I mentioned General only, and the fact they seemed concerned, and I wonder if they even know what Redmond is doing, but the main thing is General IS doing something.

Ah... the driver who dropped off my York stuff asked me to check to make sure all was alright, no dings or dents so I accepted them, UPS has waited while I have uncrated parts that came in broken containers, and FedEx waited while I opened a SVS sub woofer that came in a slightly dented box, packages that came while I rebuilt bike motors were always opened if damaged, no...maybe they all won't wait, but the ones that come to my shop do, I wouldn't ask them to wait while I set up a item and checked it, but I'll open the box and look, them mark that the container came damaged next to my signature, along with the date.
If they wouldn't wait, (none never did) they'd get a chance to drag it around in their truck a bit before bringing it back.

Happy, no I wouldn't be if I got a broken shipment, but it seems he was very upset about dragging it up and down, that could have been avoided, which might have made all this a bit less stressful... imho

Al......who wife just called to say the very large maple tree in our back yeard just dropped a major limb on his boat and garage and he gets to cut it up in 90+ degree weather plus fix whatever else got broke....have a nice day...grrrrrrr

[George Summers]

This is the first time I have chimed in, but, I had to add my two cents. Throughout these posts, people have sorta' beat around the bush about unpacking or not unpacking. Being retired from the materials management arena (shipping, receiving, storerooms, warehouses, etc) I can tell you that if the package 'appears to have been damaged', the freight company will and can wait while you open and check for damage. If there is 'no visible or apparant' damage to the container then you sign for it and if the item(s) are damaged, that is called 'concealed damage' and the recepient still has the right to file claim. The procedures may vary between carriers but the right is there. You must call within a reasonable amount of time and hold all items and packaging for the carriers rep to come and inspect. You have the right to add comments to the inspector's report should you wish to disagree on some point or to clairify some point. Any one who tells you different is not telling you the truth.

George

[Tim Morton]

Fault? no probably not, but if he'd have looked at the unit before dragging it downstairs he wouldn't have been out the added time and expense that he was upset about.


Gary when did you notice the damage? Did you uncrate it prior to moving it down to the basement? I am guessing by your description of a tight 90 degree turn into the basement that the entire crate would not fit down. Not that it is relevant, because damage in shipping is damage in shipping, but i am curious as to the chain of events.

[Phil Thien]

Any one who tells you different is not telling you the truth.

George

The impression one gets from reading your post is that there was visible damage to the package and he could have inspected it but either didn't know or declined. And, that some of us have said he wouldn't have been allowed to inspect a box w/ visible damage.

To clarify, I have never said he wouldn't be allowed to inspect a package w/ visible damage.

To clarify further, there was apparently no visible damage to his packaging.

To clarify even further, it is actually up to the driver whether a receiver can open a package before signing for it. And I have been told no on two occasions where there was damage to the packaging.

In one case, it was a box of RAM insured at over $25,000. The box wasn't even that large, but it was part of a shipment valued at over $100,000. The box had a hole it in. The driver didn't feel comfortable because he didn't know me. I didn't feel comfortable signing until I counted the modules. I had to call his dispatcher to get the driver to let me open it.

In the second case, it was an LCD monitor that was part of a shipment of 25 monitors. One of the boxes han been peeled by a forklift and I wanted to make sure the monitor was okay. He said no. I asked why not. He said, "I don't have to give a reason, take it or leave it."

[Phil Thien]

Gary when did you notice the damage? Did you uncrate it prior to moving it down to the basement? I am guessing by your description of a tight 90 degree turn into the basement that the entire crate would not fit down. Not that it is relevant, because damage in shipping is damage in shipping, but i am curious as to the chain of events.

Even if he had noticed the damage before moving it to the basement, it isn't unreasonable to expect a vendor is going to make it right by sending replacement parts. I've started using purchases that arrived broken with the assumption that a reputable firm would take care of me on the back end. Never been disappointed.

[Gary Herrmann]

Gary when did you notice the damage? Did you uncrate it prior to moving it down to the basement? I am guessing by your description of a tight 90 degree turn into the basement that the entire crate would not fit down. Not that it is relevant, because damage in shipping is damage in shipping, but i am curious as to the chain of events.


I noticed the damage about 15-20 minutes after I signed the bill of lading. I called Redmond one minute after that. They told me to call Old Dominion which I did upon hanging up.

I emailed the pics of the jointer to OD about 30-45 minutes after I signed the bill of lading. OD told me it would be ok to take it downstairs to my shop since they had the pics. I didn't want to make my wife park in the driveway for - its been what now, 6 weeks?

So yes, it was uncrated and moved into the basement the day it arrived. I also figured it would probably start to get rust spots being outside in a MO summer (very humid). Both Redmond and OD knew about the damage less than an hour after I found it and agreed it was ok to take it downstairs - despite the fact that a claims inspector from OD would be coming to examine it.

[Tim Morton]

Even if he had noticed the damage before moving it to the basement, it isn't unreasonable to expect a vendor is going to make it right by sending replacement parts.

Did I say any different?? Of course not. In fact I believe I stated that in my question.

[Andrew Williams]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread is starting to get a bit too personal?

[Nancy Laird]

No, and I'm beginning to think that it's getting a little to much of "he said..he said/he did..he did/he should..he shouldn't" and away from Gary's problem with Redmond and the machine he bought that was delivered severely damaged. We could sit here and debate for the next three weeks on who is responsible and what should have been done and what was done and how it's going to be fixed, and it wouldn't accomplish one darned thing. What has been done has been done, and you can't go back and change anything. Gary seems to be handling it well with the General rep, apparently to his own satisfaction, which is what counts. "Shoulda, woulda, coulda's" are easy for everyone to chime in on, but the bottom line is that Gary is the one who needs to be satisfied. If he is, we should be.

Just my 1.98.

Nancy

[Matt Meiser]

Nancy is right, I'm sure both parties know of things they would do differently next time. Hind sight doesn't resolve the problem. I assume that the original purpose of this thread was to a) put some pressure on Redmond to make things right after a couple weeks of trying privately and b) ask for advise on how to handle the situation.

As to the whole side debate about freight inspection, could we please just accept the fact that different companies and drivers handle it different ways. Personally I think we seen enough evidence to prove that fact!

[Bruce Benjamin]

As to the whole side debate about freight inspection, could we please just accept the fact that different companies and drivers handle it different ways. Personally I think we seen enough evidence to prove that fact!

No! I will not accept that! It's just plain WRONG!:mad: :rolleyes: ;)

Ok, so now onto why this discussion is useful and what to do if it's annoying you. This is useful because we don't all know everything about how shippers work, what to expect, and what our rights are. Most, many, or at least some of us will have to deal with a large delivery like this in the future. I have more than average experience in shipping, receiving, and delivery. But I still don't know everything and this has been an interesting and enlightening discussion. For anyone who is tired of it, why are you still reading? :confused: I suppose we've about beat this one to death but it's just weird to see people on a forum like this trying to get people to stop discussing something. Why? Just stop reading it.

Bruce

[Roger Savatteri]

one more count here not to order from Redmond.

ps. don't forget to print out the postings thus far and send it off to the top execs of Redmond. Regardless of your positive results from General........and again in a weeks time with the additional postings.
ps 2. next time deal with Jesse at Eagle Tools.

[Al Willits]

As the story unfolds I think opinions will/can change, I'm glad we're still discussing this as its become a learning curve for me anyway, my experiences with shipping evidently differ from others and in the future I'll be a bit more aware of possibilities.

Things I've picked up are, General seems to be trying to resolve the issue as fair as they can, Redmond maybe not.
Contrary to what I first thought, Gary did what he was advised to and it went sour, not his fault imho and I think he has a reason to be unhappy.
I'd think at this point Redmond or General (not sure who's at fault in the shipping deal, but suspect Redmond) should be doing all they can to rectify the problem, and a set of knife's or ? maybe should be sent to improve customer relations.
Either way, good luck Gary and let us know how it goes.

Just a thought fwiw
Al

[Chuck Wintle]

I'm sure General will do all they can to make the situation right at this point. Redmond seems to have earned a black eye but given the number of posts that give a good opinion of them there might be part of the story still missing at this point. Why would an otherwise reputable company suddenly go so wrong to satisfy one particular customer? :)

[Bruce Benjamin]

I'm sure General will do all they can to make the situation right at this point. Redmond seems to have earned a black eye but given the number of posts that give a good opinion of them there might be part of the story still missing at this point. Why would an otherwise reputable company suddenly go so wrong to satisfy one particular customer? :)


I've seen this question asked in other situations similar to this one. Here's the way I see it. Even the worst company doesn't mistreat every customer. Probably not even most. They must treat some customers very well. And even the best company doesn't please everyone every single time. They screw up from time to time too. But the best companies don't let situations like this one go so far. It's not like Gary posted to this forum as soon as he saw that the jointer was junk. He worked to resolve the problem with Redmond and Redmond failed on more than one occasion to fix it right. It seems obvious to me that Redmond isn't the best of the companies to do business or they would know how to handle the serious screw ups better. It's not like they misunderstood the situation. They were apparently well aware of the situation and chose to do what they could to save money instead of to do what they could to keep the customer happy.

Telling the forum that, "They have always treated me right" is like when a neighbor of the murderer tells the news reporter, "He was always really nice to me and his other neighbors." Well, then they can't possibly be guilty if they've always been nice before! :rolleyes: If someone doesn't mind that a company does this sort of thing then that's their right and they can keep doing business with them. Other people realize that it might just be a matter of time before they screw up their order and they don't get treated right. Or, you have to just assume that the person complaining is lying and that the company is always first rate. Your choice.

I had the worst customer service experience in my life with Jointech. I never lost my temper, I was patient, polite, and cooperative with them. I dealt with everyone right up to the owner of the company. Actually, about 90% of my interaction was with the owner. I finally just gave up after I realized that the only explanation was that he had some sort of mental problem. I couldn't come up with any other reason why he couldn't comprehend the problem and a simple solution. I have since then posted about the situation on several different forums and a few people raved about how great they were treated by Jointech. But I received about a dozen public and private replies from people who had similar experiences. How can one company treat some people so well and others so badly? I dunno but it happens. It wasn't just an, "Oops" situation. I'm sure this has happened with other respected companies besides just Jointech and Redmond. But companies that I've dealt with like Infinity, Lee Valley, Woodcraft, Sunhill, Hartville Tool, and especially EZ Smart don't have long drawn out stories of bad customer service because they handle the problems that are bound to occur correctly. If anyone is interested in the details of the Jointech fiasco, PM me and I'll send you a link to my Jointech Smart Miter review.

Bruce

[Joe Mioux]

Gary you are owed a jointer that works as advertised.

You did not pay for a broken model.

Redmond's last requirement stating you must post a favorabel comment is offensive.

However, I am having a hard time understanding why you were concerned about rust forming on the jointer top. I live in the same area ( you should see where my MM16 resides!).

Now, with that said, I thoroughly understand the concept of SWMBO's car residing in the garage and not outside. DAMHIKT! ;)

It had to take a lot of effort to get the jointer down in the basement.

I truly hope you receive satisfaction.

Joe

[Gary Herrmann]

The jointer has been shipped. I just need to get into the tracking info to determine the ETA - email said about 4 business days, but with customs, that could be somewhat variable.

[Chuck Wintle]

So that means potentially the jointer should arrive at your house on Friday. Hope this one gets there in one piece! :D

[Jim Becker]

So that means potentially the jointer should arrive at your house on Friday. Hope this one gets there in one piece!

No, he wants this one to arrive in MORE than one piece...that was the problem the first time around....:p

[Gary Herrmann]

No, he wants this one to arrive in MORE than one piece...that was the problem the first time around....:p

Well, it was shipped assembled, in a custom made crate that will support the tables. Based on how General makes their tools, I would assume the crate will be built like a tank.

[Steven Wilson]

Well the crate may be built like a tank but supporting a jointer like that is a problem. When the crate slams on the deck (it will, it's being shipped) somewhere, the jointer tables and head assembly will accelerate down into the cabinet (sheet metal) and can tweek that cabinet/motor assembly. If they put braces under the infeed or outfeed tables then those braces can really stress the tables if the base pallet flexes at all (and they do). You've seen what happens when you ship an assembled jointer that has a cast top sitting on a sheet metal cabinet. Separating the top from the cabinet base is almost always a good idea and is how most jointers of this type are shipped, and not supporting the table ends is a good idea. Good luck.

[Robert Mayer]

They asked for a favorable posting because they have reshipped a new jointer and want to make sure its recognized. That is not offensive. They didnt ask Gary to delete his post and act like it didnt happen.

Hope the new one works for ya.

[Gary Herrmann]

Moving the jointer to the garage tomorrow. The replacement is supposed to arrive Friday. The shipping company told me the gross weight is 3000 lbs? Thats either a typo or they made a battleship of a crate.

[Joe Mioux]

I know i missed it in one of the previous posts, but what does this jointer weigh?

[Bob Feeser]

When I received my 8" PM jointer, the crate was damaged at one end. I noted it to the driver and he instructed me to place a note where I sign for it stating, "Pending Final Inspection" That way you are signing off sufficiently for the driver to get back on the road, but yet retain your rights for a claim. Anyone have any experience at that type of message, and in your opinion is it binding? Any lawyers amongst us?
My jointer turned out to be fine as far as the shipping was concerned, so I moved it downstairs. Or should I say I slid it down the stairs with some help from a friend. Once I got it downstairs, and took the rest of the paper wrapper I noticed their was rust on the surface only in spots. It was as if they had accidentally splattered the table with water before coating it with cosmolene. Amazon made good on it, by selling me a PM 200 dollar movable base for the PM66 saw for a very generous discount, so I agreed. Initially I said, I want another one, and they agreed to ship it. I was dreading trying to get it back up the stairs. Then they called me then next day to make an adjustment, and that is what we worked out. I took a random orbit sander to the top, using ever finer grades of paper, and it came out beautiful. Amazon stands behind their stuff.

[Gary Herrmann]

I know i missed it in one of the previous posts, but what does this jointer weigh?

About 500 lbs. Thus the typo/battleship comment.

[Gary Herrmann]

Apparently, the shipper left the last depot headed to STL with all the appropriate paper work, but with one crate missing. Mine.

I'm waiting to hear back from them to find out where the crate is.

Unbelieveable.

Oh and the crate doesn't weigh 3000 lbs, that was a "typo in the system".

[Matt Meiser]

They probably didn't load it because the extra 2500lbs would have put the truck overweight :rolleyes:

[Chuck Wintle]

Apparently, the shipper left the last depot headed to STL with all the appropriate paper work, but with one crate missing. Mine.

I'm waiting to hear back from them to find out where the crate is.

Unbelieveable.

Oh and the crate doesn't weigh 3000 lbs, that was a "typo in the system".

I hope the missing crate is not a sign of things to come.:eek:

[Matt Tiernan]

Moving the jointer to the garage tomorrow. The replacement is supposed to arrive Friday. The shipping company told me the gross weight is 3000 lbs? Thats either a typo or they made a battleship of a crate.
Maybe their compensating for your trouble by sending a full shop's worth of tools. :D

[Robert Mayer]

Tell them their favorable comment was in the missing crate.

[Scot wolf]

How you could post a favorable comment after all this is beyond me. Even with a new jointer that worked as advertised, I would never be satisfied after what has transpired. :mad:

[Gary Herrmann]

To be fair, it is a different shipper this time. Doesn't make me feel any better, but it is yet another company to deal with in this ongoing adventure...

[Ken Fitzgerald]

This is becoming a story book.......You'll have to write when it's over.......Then it'll become a soap opera...."How the jointer turns":eek: :rolleyes: :D

Good luck Gary....Sometimes this stuff is more than frustrating and the more companies involved the bigger the headache.

[Gary Herrmann]

Apparently the jointer was loaded on a truck bound for another terminal, but wasn't scanned so it was difficult to say where it was. I'm supposed to hear from the shipper this evening or tomorrow morning regarding delivery.

Hopefully the tour of wherever it went was uneventful so it will arrive unscathed.

Stay tuned for this and more updates, as the jointer turns.

[Jim O'Dell]

Is this starting to get comical? No I bet not. Hopefully the shipper will make sure to have a liftgate on the truck for free for the extra hassle. Jim.

[Chris Rosenberger]

The shipping company told me the gross weight is 3000 lbs? Thats either a typo or they made a battleship of a crate.

Gary,
Maybe they shipped you a 16" jointer by mistake.:D

[Gary Herrmann]

Apparently the jointer took a little trip to KC. Hopefully I'll hear about delivery dates and times tomorrow...

[Al Willits]

Its nice the jointer gets all its wanderlust out before it gets to you, hopefully I'll be in good enough shape to stay with you for a bit....:)

Getting to be quite the saga...unfortnately.

Al

[Steve Clardy]

What a mess................:eek:

[Steve Roxberg]

Apparently the jointer took a little trip to KC. Hopefully I'll hear about delivery dates and times tomorrow...

Well that explains where the General Jointer sitting in my driveway came from. It's in perfect shape. :D

[Mark Rios]

Hey wait a minute.......I just saw it go through Central CA. Another guy said that he saw it in Seattle Washington.

Does Andy Hoyt have anything to do with the shipping on this thing?

:D :D :D

[Scot wolf]

I can't wait to hear the favorable post. Now that will be interesting.

[Robert Mayer]

Any updates Gary?

[Gary Herrmann]

Mr. Frampton from General had worked out a deal with the shipper (Roadway) regarding delivery of the new jointer and pickup of the old one. When I talked to them yesterday, they made it seem like they knew nothing about the agreement and wanted to charge some additional fees for making the driver wait while I uncrated the new jointer and moved the old one to the crate.

I've tentatively scheduled the jointer for delivery if the shipper cooperates with the original agreement. This whole episode continues to be extremely frustrating.

[Chuck Wintle]

They seems to be taking their sweet time delivering your new jointer. :confused: Do you know what the holdup is? :)

[John Schreiber]

Each time I tune into this thread, I feel like I'm watching a slow motion train wreck. I sure hope it turns out satisfactorily for Gary, but everyone involved is being hurt by this.

[Mark Hollingsworth]

(quote) Each time I tune into this thread, I feel like I'm watching a slow motion train wreck. I sure hope it turns out satisfactorily for Gary, but everyone involved is being hurt by this.

Ditto what John said. I'm amazed Gary that you continue dealing with these people. Patience is certainly a virtue but it seems that this has gone beyond that and your willingness to work with them is being exploited and that it would certainly be ethical and proper at this point to say-this is enough. That a company here in the (good old USA of A) would treat you like this is truly sad and I hope it's not indicative of more to come but given the social ills(lack of integrity being one in this case) in our country today it may be. Just yesterday I wound up on the Redmond website looking for a lathe but after reading your posts I quickly left their site and will not patronize them again, as I have before. I believe by now I would have told them to pick-up their jointer from the basement-like it or not -and continued my credit card dispute. I hope things work out for the best.

[tom blankenship]

With the exception of Mr. Herrmann, I think that it is impossible for any of those involved with this fiasco to emerge with any dignity.

tom

[Scot wolf]

I know what I would do. When it finally did show up (if it did). I would refuse it and get on with disputing the CC charges.

[Bruce Page]

I know what I would do. When it finally did show up (if it did). I would refuse it and get on with disputing the CC charges.
I'm with you on this one. Talk about the jointer from hell!

[Gary Herrmann]

Unfortunately, I've had a mobile base and a shelix head to go with that jointer for awhile now, and I don't what I spent for them. Might not be the smartest thing, but I'm going to go ahead with it. Besides, whoever said I was smart?

The jointer is supposed to be delivered tomorrow between 9am and 230 pm tomorrow. Cross your fingers and any other handy appendages.

[Jason Beam]

It's just too bad you couldn't get the same model from somwhere else and let the original crew deal with your CC company.

[Jim O'Dell]

Everything's crossed, Gary, even parts that weren't designed to be. :eek: :D Jim.

[Gary Herrmann]

Everything's crossed, Gary, even parts that weren't designed to be. :eek: :D Jim.


Just don't strain anything.

[Nancy Laird]

But Gary, I can't read all these posts with my eyes crossed:rolleyes: . Fingers and toes are crossed for you though.

Nancy....looking down and waiting with bated breath!!!

[Joe Jensen]

I wrote this long post a few days ago and then my system crashed and I lost it. I can't resist so I'm typing it again.

The common perception is that a buyer gets better service and support from the smaller and mom & pop places, but the prices are higher. We've become accustomed to poor service from the Borgs, but we get great prices so we keep going. In this case it's surprising that the supplier who nearly always has the lowest price (per my incessant web surfing for price) is Amazon. And, they seem to always put the customer first.

I can see how the seller would assume they shipped it in good condition, and either the buyer or shipper broke it. I can see how the shipper says, the box was fine, and the buyer signed for it, damage must have happed before it was shipped or the buyer broke it later. From the buyers perspective, the jointer arrived broken and that broken part wasn't in the bottom of the crate. Bottom line, the customer should always be right, and the seller should deal with the shipper and General to deal with it on their side. I am certain based on my personal experience that Amazon would have taken care of this. General seems to understand this and they have stepped in to try and rectify the situation. The seller clearly doesn't. I'll never buy from them, and I spend about $4K a year on tools with Amazon..joe

[Gary Herrmann]

After the jointer's scenic trip to KC, I finally arranged for delivery on 6/28. After calling 4 or 5 times today, I was able to confirm that it would indeed arrive today. The driver would deliver it, we'd move it off the crate, put the old one on the crate and away it would go.

Then an emptry truck arrived from Roadway for pickup.

After another call - during which they talked about rescheduling again, the CS rep talked to the driver (who was very helpful) and we determined the delivery truck was coming and that driver would take care of pickup too.

Then the truck arrived. The crate was in pretty bad shape as you can see. I happened to notice the locking screw for the outfeed table hanging in the plastic. Please note, I did not disassemble the crate at all. This is exactly how I found it. All I did was move the plastic so I could inspect the unit.

I decided to screw it back in. It wouldn't. Something got sheared off, or whatever it screws into was damaged or not present. Definitely not taking delivery of this one, I thought.

I called Mr. Frampton at General and let him know. He apologized and cautioned me not to take delivery, but to leave the original jointer there.

He told me he would try to work something out, but returning the jointer was also an option.

Now maybe I'm being stubborn, but I've had a mobile base and a shelix head for this model jointer for a month and I'm not sure if I can return the head. The mobile base has been scratched up from the original jointer so, I will definitely lose money there.

I like General tools. I bought a General jointer. I still want one. Am I just being an idiot?

I hope something can be worked out. I've been very patient. To be honest, I would have thought I'd be enraged right now. Not sure. Maybe I'm in shock or denial about this ongoing farce I find myself involved in...

To be continued...
Again...

[Jim Becker]

Are my eyes seeing that replacement jointer also shipping as an assembled unit??? Huh???

[Jim O'Dell]

Jim, I seem to remember something being said that it would ship that way in a specially designed and built crate that would support it properly. Gary, I think you're just numb at this point. Man I'm sorry this has happened again. You didn't deserve that after what you've already been through. Jim.

[Chuck Wintle]

Is it possible there should be a nut that the loose piece will screw into? Maybe its just a matter of a bit of adjustment?

[Jason Beam]

Gary,

At this point either General needs to send you a proper unit or you need to find somewhere else to get the same model. Mr. Frampton seems to be trying the best he can, but it's really beyond me why the 2nd one wouldn't have been packed better. It's insane. I know you got a deal. I know you paid for a display model. But they need to ensure that the condition of the machine is exactly the same as it was when on display.

I'm amazed at the incompetence of whoever is packaging these machines. It's really too bad that a good name is being tarnished by those who can't package a machine for shipping. Even worse that a very patient customer is being handed a really sour lemon twice in a row, now. It's becoming quite the fiasco and I wouldn't blame you if you gave up on General altogether.

At this point, I'd hope that General can be convinced that you deserve more than this and goes above and beyond to make it right once and for all. I think this is really their time to shine if they want to recover what negative press they've gotten. It needs to end now, and they're the only ones who can do that.

[Randy Klein]

Honestly, I just don't see why they can't disassemble the jointer, package the table and stand separately and ship it out in a ridiculously reinforced crate. They should package it as if there reputation depends upon it...because it does.

[Gary Herrmann]

Is it possible there should be a nut that the loose piece will screw into? Maybe its just a matter of a bit of adjustment?

Its possible. I looked all over the crate. Didn't find anything. That crate definitely isn't what I expected. I'm not sure how it was supporting the tables.

[Bill Wyko]

"The shipper and the crate" by Seemore xxxx:D Holy Moly, there has been almost 20,000 visits to this thread. I sure hope they get this right for you soon.

[Scot wolf]

Gary,

At this point either General needs to send you a proper unit or you need to find somewhere else to get the same model. Mr. Frampton seems to be trying the best he can, but it's really beyond me why the 2nd one wouldn't have been packed better. It's insane. I know you got a deal. I know you paid for a display model. But they need to ensure that the condition of the machine is exactly the same as it was when on display.

I'm amazed at the incompetence of whoever is packaging these machines. It's really too bad that a good name is being tarnished by asshats who can't package a machine for shipping. Even worse that a very patient customer is being handed a really sour lemon twice in a row, now. It's becoming quite the fiasco and I wouldn't blame you if you gave up on General altogether.

At this point, I'd hope that General can be convinced that you deserve more than this and goes above and beyond to make it right once and for all. I think this is really their time to shine if they want to recover what negative press they've gotten. It needs to end now, and they're the only ones who can do that.

A big DITTO

[Roger Savatteri]

gary, after this sad story repeated you would think that the powers that be at corporate (General) would be offering to send a special delivery truck direct from their distribution hub with a team to set it exactly where it needs to be.

......cost at this point should not be a calculation on their part any longer, rebuilding their credibility is.

[glenn bradley]

I know everyone else has said it but, I am so sorry this is happening to you. I would be very disgruntled at this point. I would definitly be looking to get out of this and try another product.

[Matt Meiser]

Unbelievable...You are very patient. I would have gone ballistic weeks ago. Cut your losses and buy from a reputable company like Grizzly. Heck, drive down to Springfield tomorrow and bring one home and be done with it. Sell the base if it won't work, try to exhange the cutterhead, or if you can't sell it and you'll still be ahead financially overall. Plus you know you'll be dealing with a company competent enough to take care of their customers.

BTW, how is that positive email about how General and Redmond helped you out coming along?

[Chuck Wintle]

I think the whole situation is beyond salvaging at this point. They have had their chance to make good on a jointer for you. You can always sell the mobile base and cutterhead and go with another brand. :confused:

[Gary Herrmann]

I think the whole situation is beyond salvaging at this point. They have had their chance to make good on a jointer for you. You can always sell the mobile base and cutterhead and go with another brand. :confused:

I don't blame General for this. I really don't. But if I do wind up not going with a General jointer and selling the base and the head at a loss, I don't think I'll ever buy another General tool again.

I know that isn't fair. I'm probably getting over the shock and starting to get angry. But I keep thinking: I just wanted to get a high quality jointer and planer.

I guess sometimes things just don't work out.

I didn't intend to villify anyone in this post. I apologize if thats how its turned out.

I do appreciate all the support I've gotten from my fellow Creekers. Thanks.

[John Schreiber]

I just sent the email below to General International generalint@aol.com and Redmond Machinery mail@redmondmachinery.com .

Dear Sirs,

Reference: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=59207

I am part of Sawmill Creek, an internet community of woodworkers who have followed the attempts of one of our members to purchase a General 8" jointer through Redmond Machinery. Having read the thread referenced above, you can see why your reputations have plummeted in the opinions of many people. The thread has been "hit" almost 20,000 times.

Please do what you can to compensate our fellow woodworker and save your reputations. Action needs to take place NOW. I am not involved personally in this situation, but I would recommend that a principle of General and/or Redmond personally deliver and setup the equipment which was originally ordered. At this point additional compensation, in whatever form meets the needs of the customer, seems to me to be entirely appropriate.

I would suggest that you also directly address the issue by posting on Sawmill Creek. It is not too late to change this from a damaging mistake into a learning experience.

Thank you.

[Jim McCarty]

I just sent the email below to General International generalint@aol.com and Redmond Machinery mail@redmondmachinery.com .

Dear Sirs,

Reference: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=59207

I am part of Sawmill Creek, an internet community of woodworkers who have followed the attempts of one of our members to purchase a General 8" jointer through Redmond Machinery. Having read the thread referenced above, you can see why your reputations have plummeted in the opinions of many people. The thread has been "hit" almost 20,000 times.

Please do what you can to compensate our fellow woodworker and save your reputations. Action needs to take place NOW. I am not involved personally in this situation, but I would recommend that a principle of General and/or Redmond personally deliver and setup the equipment which was originally ordered. At this point additional compensation, in whatever form meets the needs of the customer, seems to me to be entirely appropriate.

I would suggest that you also directly address the issue by posting on Sawmill Creek. It is not too late to change this from a damaging mistake into a learning experience.

Thank you.
Well done, John.

[Bruce Page]

Gary, I think it's time to punt.
I would contact whoever you purchased the head from and explain the situation, even point him to this post. He may just be happy to refund your money. He would certainly make a lot of points with the membership here. You will probably be able to use the mobile base with a different jointer.

[Steve Clardy]

I have a hard time trying to understand why a company cannot built a crate to hold anything anymore.

[Bruce Page]

I have a hard time trying to understand why a company cannot built a crate to hold anything anymore.

Every jointer that I have ever seen shipped was shipped with the bed seperate from the base. These two from Redmond are the ONLY two that I have seen shipped like that.

[Gary Herrmann]

Every jointer that I have ever seen shipped was shipped with the bed seperate from the base. These two from Redmond are the ONLY two that I have seen shipped like that.

The second one didn't come from Redmond.

[Tim Morton]

If it helps....a few months ago I ordered a samsung 56" DLP TV from amazon. It arrived and within 5 days it stopped working. Samsung was TERRIBLE about the whole thing, but amazon was great and sent me out a replacement set. This one was defective as well out of the box....but like you i REALLY wanted this TV....and i decided rather than go for a third set I would make samsung send out a repair tech to fix the problem by replacing the entire light engine. This also was a nightmare in that it took 3 visits and by the time I was done I had 5 days off from work to wait for delivery and or repair.

BUT...i now emjoy the heck out of my TV and the nightmare is a distant memory.

FWIW.

[Bruce Page]

The second one didn't come from Redmond.

Yeah, I knew that...
But still...

[Peter Pedisich]

I have a hard time trying to understand why a company cannot built a crate to hold anything anymore.

Steve,

That is an excellent question.

Where I work we have struggled to get one of our suppliers to ship a casework component to us crated in such a way so that the product we paid for arrives at our factory in the condition it left their factory.

Why the resistance???

Why can't the companies involved, or at least one of them, do what's required???:confused:

I could build a crate in an afternoon that would do the job here, and if it was my company I would make sure it was done properly and PUT BEHIND ME.

Where is common sense here??

What is happening to the USA?

Gary, I admire your patience.

[Steve Clardy]

Steve,

That is an excellent question.

Where I work we have struggled to get one of our suppliers to ship a casework component to us crated in such a way so that the product we paid for arrives at our factory in the condition it left their factory.

Why the resistance???

Why can't the companies involved, or at least one of them, do what's required???:confused:

I could build a crate in an afternoon that would do the job here, and if it was my company I would make sure it was done properly and PUT BEHIND ME.

Where is common sense here??

What is happening to the USA?

Gary, I admire your patience.

Yes. Exactly. I cannot understand it.

I order in a lot of lazy susans.
You ought to see the shape the boxes are when they get here.
3/4's of them are tore open, and the hardware has fell out somewhere down the line. I have to call and get the hardware replaced.

I realize this isn't machinery, but I get so disgusted with co's that cannot pack anything. Laminate. Try ordering that. My success rate at receiving undamaged lamanite is about 50% :(

[Kim Spence]

Gary - Sorry to see this happening to you.

I'd be willing to bet that your Shelix cutter head will fit a number of different 8" Jointers. According to Grizzly's cross reference table for the Byrd Shelix heads, the same 8" head will fit the General, General International, Grizzly, Powermatic, Jet, Sunhill, and Bridgewood jointers.

If it was me I'd tell General to come pick up their junk and order from a company that will treat you right. You could order a Grizzly tomorrow and probably have it by middle of next week, shipped in 2 separate crates. I have one and I think its top notch.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kim

[Don Bullock]

Gary,I'm very sorry about your dissapointment. I can't believe what I'm reading. After this is all over we should nominate you for sainthood. You have been far more patient and kind to deserve such poor service.I sure it finally works out for you in the end because you certainly deserve better.

[Aaron Mills]

I decided to screw it back in. It wouldn't. Something got sheared off, or whatever it screws into was damaged or not present. Definitely not taking delivery of this one, I thought.


The locking screw won't engage because you're probably missing part no. 481-13 (General calls it a nut, but it's not a basic nut, its threaded for the locking screw and interfaces with the gibs). The part is $9 CDN (although I suspect General will rectify the situation).

Hope that helps.

[Gary Herrmann]

The locking screw won't engage because you're probably missing part no. 481-13 (General calls it a nut, but it's not a basic nut, its threaded for the locking screw and interfaces with the gibs). The part is $9 CDN (although I suspect General will rectify the situation).

Hope that helps.

Thanks Aaron. I still would have been concerned about accepting that joitner given that the crate it was packaged in was in pieces and lying in a pile inside the truck.

[Chuck Wintle]

Gary,
So where does it stand now? Did you keep the second jointer and ship the first one back? Or have both been shipped back? :D

[Brad Townsend]

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but this gets me to wondering; What are the records for most views and most replies for a single thread on SMC? If such records are kept and there is a moderator reading, where does this thread stack up?

[randy street]

Brad,

You can get this information yourself. Just click on the "VIEWS" column and it will sort by that High to Low.

[Rod Upfold]

I see that it's 7th on the view list...I think Redmond and somewhat General better make sure that it has a positive ending.

20,732 views


Rod

[Matt Meiser]

Redmond has known about this thread for weeks. Since Gary seems to be posting about all of his communication with Redomnd, General, and the shippers it seems like they've washed their hands of the matter since he hasn't said anything about Redmond in quite some time. Actually, they seem to have washed their hands of the matter once they charged his CC.

[Steven Wilson]

It looks like the jointer arrived in good shape and it's a good thing that those tables weren't supported on the ends or they would have likely been damaged. The handle assembly doesn't look like it's been sheared off, just worked loose. There is probably a capture nut missing but without the parts diagram it's hard to tell. You were right to refuse delivery, it's between General and the shipper to work things out. Too bad because that looks like a very nice jointer.

[Brad Townsend]

Brad,

You can get this information yourself. Just click on the "VIEWS" column and it will sort by that High to Low.
D'oh! Thanks Randy.

[Brad Townsend]

I see that it's 7th on the view list...I think Redmond and somewhat General better make sure that it has a positive ending.

20,732 views


Rod
Actually, I see it as being number 4. The first three are stickies. And it's the NUMBER 1 non-workshop-construction thread.

[Bruce Page]

I see that it's 7th on the view list...I think Redmond and somewhat General better make sure that it has a positive ending.

20,732 views


Rod
Just an FYI,
The “Views” list is not all inclusive. It only applies to current or active threads. There are many high view threads that aren’t listed.

[Gary Herrmann]

Just got a call from Mr. Frampton. This is his proposed resolution:

They will ship me a new jointer in the appropriate packaging.
I will inspect it and take delivery.
The driver will put it in the garage.
I'll get it downstairs.
I will take the packaging back up to the garage, dismantle the original damaged jointer and put it in the packaging the new one came in.
Then I'll call the shipping company to come get the damaged unit.

It make take a week or so with the holidays for the new one to arrive. I think its a generous solution on the part of General.

At this point, I just want this whole thing to be over.

[Jason Beam]

THAT is the response I've been hoping for.

THAT is what I expected from General.

THAT probably could have been done sooner, but this is but a blip on the radar of the world and you'll soon be happy to have the jointer that you bought.

Took awhile, but I don't blame them for trying to keep it fair at first. I'm also glad they realized that the fiasco required a bit more of a gesture.

Mr. Frampton, when I decide on my next tool, General will get a strong look from me, for sure. :)

[Al Willits]

Whew!
Quite the battle there Gary, but before I say congrats, I think I'll wait to see what your thoughts on the next one are, but hopefully three times will do it.

I do understand your wanting to keep trying even while others said to toss the towel in, you've picked this jointer as the one you wanted and its hard to change, hopefully this unfortnate saga is coming to a end and you'll be making sawdust on it soon.

Kudo's to all who finally made this happen.

Al

[Bruce Page]

That's great news Gary. If only thay had done this 3 weeks ago. Kudos to General for stepping up to the plate!

[Ted Miller]

Where is common sense here??

What is happening to the USA?


Peter, I say this daily to my co workers here at the warehouse I manage. Common sense is no longer available in the US when it comes to shipping.
Bottom line is a buck and thats it, just get the item out quick and cheap, bottom line with no attention to detail or care of contents.

I see damaged freight day in day out like clockwork.

Gary, If you still had the CC stop payment you should have rec'd the damaged second jointer and then like I do on a daily basis tell the vendor I now have 2 items for free. Fix the problem or thank you for the free items.

Yes I have some orders that have taken 1 year to rectify but trust me no payment til its perfect. One hundred percent of my damged freight gets taken care of. Yes I am persistent and it will get done. Like I said before everything that touches my whse floor I consider I purchased it since every dollar is tax payers money.

Another thing about the driver picking up the old jointer when he is delivering the new one. Could not see that happening at all unless the damaged jointer was all crated and ready to go right then and there. No way would he help you unload the new jointer and repack the damaged one. As I said I would rec'd the new one then let the vendor deal with pick up of damaged one. I know it takes up space but what the hell you delt with it this long.

Main thing do not pay a dime until new item is delivered. I know how big companies work, most likely they will forget about the damaged jointer in a month or so anyways after the new one gets delivered.

Now back to work on calling two vendors about damaged freight I rec'd yesterday, job security...

[Jim O'Dell]

Tip of the hat to Mr Frampton. Good answer in an otherwise difficult situation. Hopefully they had the unit insured, and that will pay for the replacement. With that type of support, General looks very good in my book. Jim.

[Nancy Laird]

With that type of support, General looks very good in my book. Jim.

But why has it taken THREE WEEKS for General to step up and make this right.

Wonder if Redmond will be repping General for much longer?

Nancy

[Chuck Wintle]

But why has it taken THREE WEEKS for General to step up and make this right.

Wonder if Redmond will be repping General for much longer?

Nancy

My question exactly. 3 weeks is a huge amount of time.

[Randy Klein]

My question exactly. 3 weeks is a huge amount of time.

I don't 3 weeks is that long. Some of that is tied up in shipping and communicating. I think General handled this properly and promptly. I wouldn't expect them to replace the display model with a newer model on the first go round. I'm glad to see they are doing it this time though...

[Chuck Wintle]

I don't 3 weeks is that long. Some of that is tied up in shipping and communicating. I think General handled this properly and promptly. I wouldn't expect them to replace the display model with a newer model on the first go round. I'm glad to see they are doing it this time though...

Redmond should have stepped up right away when it was discoverd the first one was broken.

[Randy Klein]

Redmond should have stepped up right away when it was discoverd the first one was broken.

I agree with you on what Redmond should have done.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Redmond should have stepped up right away when it was discoverd the first one was broken.

But they didn't. And that's why I, for one, will never even consider shopping with them.

[Jim O'Dell]

But why has it taken THREE WEEKS for General to step up and make this right.

Wonder if Redmond will be repping General for much longer?

Nancy

Nancy, the way I understand it is that this was not General's problem to start with. They stepped in when Redmond didn't take care of things properly. So General didn't get involved until after the first week or so. This is the second one that General is shipping out. I think they 'done good' by Gary. Jim.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

I should say that y'all should quit jumping on the "General is Great" bandwagon until Gary ACTUALLY RECEIVES an undamaged jointer. The only thing he's been given so far is promises.

Hopefully they come through.

[Nancy Laird]

Nancy, the way I understand it is that this was not General's problem to start with. They stepped in when Redmond didn't take care of things properly. So General didn't get involved until after the first week or so. This is the second one that General is shipping out. I think they 'done good' by Gary. Jim.

As I read things, Gary began this post on June 4, and his initial sentences were: "I posted a few weeks ago that I purchased a General 8" jointer and and a General 14" planer on sale at Redmond Machinery.

What I didn't post was that the jointer arrived damaged. I had assumed that either Redmond Machinery or the shipper (Old Dominion Freight Lines)would make it right for me. That was my 2nd mistake. The broken off piece was not in the crate."

General should have stepped up at the very beginning to work with Gary to make this right, and NOT waited until this thread started drawing attention from the nearly 22,000 views and almost 250 posts that have resulted.

Yes, General has stepped up and is - supposedly - making things right with Gary. I sure don't see Redmond doing that, nor the freight line. Redmond is the company that has been most hurt by this entire incident---and don't forget that.

Nancy

[Jim O'Dell]

I guess I looked over the part that it had actually started before the first post in this thread. I agree with you Nancy, this fiasco is in Redmond's lap. That's why I don't fault General at all. They weren't in the loop at first, so could not have taken charge. I believe that Mr Frampton stepped in quickly once he was made aware of the situation, whether someone notified him, or someone in his company saw this thread and reported the problem, I don't know. I think that they stepped in and got the fix going when it seemed neither Redmond nor the original freight company were willing to. Unfortuanately that first 'fix' ended up being damaged also. But Mr Frampton has stepped up again to make this right. It's a shame that Gary has had to deal with this for this long. But I believe that General is doing their best to make it right. Jim.

[Jim Becker]

Just got a call from Mr. Frampton.

Mr. Frampton gets the cupie doll...not the big one 'cause it's taken too long and the first unit he had shipped wasn't packed right IMHO...but a prize, no less, for doing the right thing.

[Gary Herrmann]

Mr. Frampton called again to let me know the new jointer would go to the shipper next Tuesday (to minimize the potential for damage from sitting on their dock over the weekend). Monday is Canada day, so they'll be closed. So right now, the ETA will probably be some time the week of the 9th.

At this point, thats fine with me.