stability of soft maple vs. poplar?

[Debbie Battaglia]

i'm planning to build new cabinets for my kitchen. they'll be painted white. all along i've assumed that i'd use poplar, but a friend said something he built out of poplar moved and warped and he prefers soft maple. he thinks it's more stable. i assume both woods have plusses and minuses, but is there any strong reason not to use poplar?

maybe i should add that i'm planning to make the doors and the cabinet sides with frame and panel construction and -- everyone tells me i'm crazy, but -- i'm considering using solid wood for the panels as well as the frames. i don't know if that changes anything, but maybe it does....

thank you,

debbie

[Gary Keedwell]

Funny ....I have had the opposite experience. Nothing but trouble with soft maple and all the luck with Poplar. I got a big haul of Poplar a couple years ago and just love the stuff. Very stable in my experience. I built a face-frame chimney cabinet that LOML painted with milk paint. Still looks great after 2 years. Done alot of drawers and all kinds of stuff with it.
Almost out now...gonna pick some more up. Don't get me wrong, I do all kinds of wood especially QSWO. but seem to incorparate poplar when I can...;)
Gary K.

[thomas prevost]

either or.. We sell a lot of tulip popular to cabinet makers and it is used routinely for internal frames in furniture. Any wood will move if it is not dried and stored properly. Lotsa beautiful furniture made from curly soft maple. wouldn't be done if it weren't stable.

Get kiln dried lumber unless you have good detail on air dried- how long and where. Outside drying will leave about 12%. your house may only be 5-6% in winter. Air dried should be left in your shop a month before using to aclimate.

[Debbie Battaglia]

i've always read that poplar machines and paints well. and we've started a soft maple project recently, and it's not machining that well. maybe the knives are all too dull, but the grain seems to switch direction and leave rough areas... any other experiences with poplar, positive or negative?

[Jeff Raymond]

I used to use poplar on anything that was painted and had great experiences with it. What is called 'soft maple' by some is referred to as swamp maple in New England and can be kinda unreliable due to uneven growth rings, even after proper drying. I was looking at some poplar this morning at the local HD and it was even, straight and OK for use. Don't ever kid yourself that you can stain it though as my experience was that it turned an awful greenish black color. Yecchh.

So for a painted project, it holds an edge nicely, sands well and probably should be primed and sanded prior to painting.

Tulip has historically been considered to be a good secondary wood for drawer sides and so on.

Good stuff.

[Curt Harms]

<snip> Don't ever kid yourself that you can stain it though as my experience was that it turned an awful greenish black color. Yecchh.

So for a painted project, it holds an edge nicely, sands well and probably should be primed and sanded prior to painting.

Tulip has historically been considered to be a good secondary wood for drawer sides and so on.

Good stuff.

I had some poplar that had a green streak-it's been in my basement that're lit with fluorescent lights. Over some months, it's turned a nice medium brown. I'm sure that if that wood were out the the sun the change would be faster.

I found something interesting when finishing a poplar box. I tried brushing McClosky Tungseal-yuck, blotchy mess. I then tried spraying it--ah, much better. Poplar will never displace cherry or walnut, but it's not bad stuff. I can usually find white poplar without the green stain if I sort thru the pile at my local sawmill.

HTH


Curt

[Bert Johansen]

Debbie, like many others have already posted, poplar is popular (pun intended) for internal frames and drawer sides--stuff you can't see. But not all poplar is stable right out of the supplier's stash. The last batch I got warped pretty badly, and I had to joint it quite heavily to flatten the boards.

Poplar machines extremely well--almost like butter. It also paints beautifully. As someone already said, don't stain it. However, you can DYE poplar with great success. See photo of some frames for an oriental cabinet I'm building. These were dyed with TransTint Bright Red dye using a sprayer. then top coated with satin poly.

[Debbie Battaglia]

wow, that red dye on the poplar piece you showed is beautiful!

i want painted cabinets in our kitchen, because i love the way they look with a wood countertop. it sounds ike poplar is the wood to use. and it's less expensive than the maple...

thanks everyone!

[Joe Chritz]

Polar dents much easier than soft maple. I have used both for projects and wouldn't have any problem doing painted cabinets with poplar.

It is cheap so good boards aren't hard to find.

For kitchen cabs it is pretty much a wash if you ask me.

For drawers I like the look of maple so I opt for that most often if using solid wood. Mine personal cabinets are poplar sides since I built them before I found a local supply of cheap maple.

Joe

[Jeff Raymond]

Good comment about dyes. I haven't tried it, but that's an intriguing idea.

Me paint/stain/oil/varnish. Me not think of dye.

Me old. Dye so easy a Caveman Could Do It?

[Lee Schierer]

Poplar is probably as stable as maple as long as it is equally dried.

I hear a lot of discussion about air drying versus kiln drying and both are good ways to get good wood if done properly. The problem is many suppliers don't do either well. Unless you really know your supplier, his methods and know that lumber he supplies is problem free, an investment in a moisture meter is probably wise.

You also need to accilimate the lumber to your shop before working it. At least 2 weeks. If your shop is damp, the lumber is going to have more problems than a really dry shop. When sizing lumber for thickness always remove equal amounts of material from each face to minimize potential for warping.

Personally I have almost never had a problem with lumber from my supplier. He kiln dries all his wood and it is 6-7% moisture when I get it. In almost 15 years of buying lumber from them I can recall only once having a piece that I ripped pinch the saw or spread apart. I can count the pieces that warped on one hand. Their lumber is F4S and knot free. Yes it costs a bit more than rough and is half the price of HD or Lowes, but you can't argue with success..

[Jamie Buxton]

If you really want painted cabinets in your kitchen, go ahead. But ash currently costs virtually the same as poplar. Ash is very pretty, and is harder than poplar. Instead of paint, you could have real hardwood cabinets (with a clear varnish, not paint), for the same cost and effort.

[Jim Becker]

IDon't ever kid yourself that you can stain it though as my experience was that it turned an awful greenish black color.

I've built countless projects from the Tulip Poplar off our property without any issues with dying it to resemble other species, particularly pine and cherry. And that's for primary wood, not secondary. The heart that initially is green, browns out in a short period of time after exposure. Now, if the material has mineral staining...purple, intense green, etc...that wouldn't be good for primary wood unless you actually wanted the effect.

-----

Debbie, both poplar and maple can be unstable if not dried properly. Also, I've rarely had a "switching grain" issue with tulip poplar...be careful as some suppliers will call aspen "poplar", too...softer, fuzzier, etc. That said, all my kitchen cabinets have poplar face frames and the door rails and stiles are also poplar.

[Brad Naylor]

The majority of my business is building custom painted kitchens. I've used poplar for a lot of them but not any more - it's too soft and in time will dent and look really shabby.

I now use the very best material available for painted cabinets, face frames, and panelled doors;

Moisture resistant MDF.

Its hard, it doesn't move, it moulds nicely, it comes in consistant thicknesses, and it paints beautifully.

Oh, and it's cheap!

I would never go back to solid wood for painted furniture.

[Brad Naylor]

Here's some photos of a kitchen I just built out of MR MDF and painted

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p166/bradnaylor/5c3fb25f.jpg


http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p166/bradnaylor/3d938ec7.jpg

Cheers
Brad

[Debbie Battaglia]

brad,

i love traditional british cabinets!! those are pretty much the style i want. did you know that those door and drawer knobs you used are a british thing? i love them, and they can be found in the US, but not that commonly.

[Ron Brese]

I think either material will work well for painted cabinets with the maple certainly being harder. I would suggest that even if you plan to use a waterborne top coat use a solvent based primer or sealer. I have had doors warp to the point of having to remake some of them, all these instances were related to the use of a waterborne primer coat. After I changed back to a solvent base sealer the problems diminished.

Ron Brese

[Brad Naylor]

brad,

i love traditional british cabinets!! those are pretty much the style i want. did you know that those door and drawer knobs you used are a british thing? i love them, and they can be found in the US, but not that commonly.

Hell, I just use them 'cause they're cheap and I've got a big box full of them!:)

I'm not sure about them being a British thing; I'm pretty sure all the beech knobs we see here are imported from Croatia or Romania.

I also think that the current vogue for painted kitchen cabinets originated in America!

By the way, I agree with Ron about waterborne paints. I use good old AC.

Have fun with your kitchen Debbie.

Cheers
Brad

[mike roe]

I recently redid my kitchen and built about 17 new frame and panel doors. All poplar rails and stiles with mdf panels - painted with BM Satin impervo. Worked great - the poplar was actually easier to deal with than the mdf, mainly because of the unreal dust mdf creates. In a painted application id always go poplar. Takes a great finish and you cant tell teh difference between the mdf and poplar when painted.

Best reason to use mdf for the panels.... 21.88 for 4x8 sheet of it. thats a lot of panels.

[Craig D Peltier]

I used to use poplar on anything that was painted and had great experiences with it. What is called 'soft maple' by some is referred to as swamp maple in New England and can be kinda unreliable due to uneven growth rings, even after proper drying. I was looking at some poplar this morning at the local HD and it was even, straight and OK for use. Don't ever kid yourself that you can stain it though as my experience was that it turned an awful greenish black color. Yecchh.

So for a painted project, it holds an edge nicely, sands well and probably should be primed and sanded prior to painting.

Tulip has historically been considered to be a good secondary wood for drawer sides and so on.

Good stuff.

This is poplar stained.65798