Chisel purchase dilemma

[Matt Day]

Hi all,

It's time for me to upgrade my bottom of the barrel chisels now that I think my skills have surpassed them. I have a mix of HF and some stanley's from Lowes currently.

So I've gone around and around on this, whether to get something like the Marples Blue Chip, or something like Ashley Isles. I've read arguements for both. I can't really decide, but I would like to spend less than $100. The AI's are close enough at $110 for a set of 6. LN's are out of the question;) .

Here are the sets I've been thinking about:

Marples Blue Chip set of 6: $50
Narex set of 8: $59
MHG set of 6: $60
Stubai set of 6: $99
Ashley Isles set of 6: $110

I'll be using them for furniture and joinery, not for opening paint cans. And I don't have any fancy sharpening system, but will use the Scary Sharp method.

What would you all do?

[Michael Fross]

Without a doubt I would go with the Ashley Isles. If you take care of them you'll have them a lifetime.

Michael

[Robert Rozaieski]

Love my AIs.

[David Weaver]

Don't leave out the Hirsch chisels. From all of the reviews, their edge durability against dullness and chipping is only second to the LN A2 steel (and probably the M2 HSS lathe chisels, but who makes bench chisels in with it, anyway - that'll probably be the next wave).

They're in the same price range as the AI chisels. Either of those two would probably really be fine, and some of the others may be fine, too, but with some of them, you may still be wanting to upgrade again in a short period of time. I doubt that would be the case with the AI or Hirsch chisels.

It may be worth asking how close the chisels come to flat and without toolmarks - if you get something with deep tool marks, and you have to get them out of everything, you'll spend way more time than the $40 difference in price. That's been the case in chisels that someone gave me as a gift - the steel in them really isn't that bad, and they hold an edge decent, but it takes an hour to get each one ready to use the first time.

[glenn bradley]

I've got a set of Marples that have been quite serviceable. A step up would be nice but I've gotten way more than my monies' worth out of these and will probably milk them for another year or so. For the price, they're a good deal and I don't have to stress if I ever nick one badly. Another option is to go double-plus on the price and have a set till your 100% gray and add extra-special items in the future.

[Tim Malyszko]

I bought my first set of quality chisels a couple of months ago (pfiel) and I now look back and cannot believe I went so long without them. I wish I had them about 2 years ago when I had to make all the mortises for the locks on our french windows.

The pheils are a bit out of your pricerange, but good chisels are a great investment. I no longer dread having to work with them.

[Matt Day]

Thanks for the replies so far. Looks like the AI's are in the lead so far.

[Dan Clark]

You might want to consider Two Cherries: http://www.holbren.com/product.php?productid=3046&cat=622&page=1. I've been eyeing these, but can't yet justify buying an upgrade to my old butt chisels.

Edit: With the "woodnet10" discount code, they are $125.95 at Holbren.

Regards,

dAn.

[Dan Clark]

Hi. Out of curiosity, I went to the Lie-Nielsen site and looked at their chisels. The look very nice, but quite expensive! But it was the "Warning" at the bottom of the page that I love!


Warning: Sharp chisels are dangerous and should be handled with care. Dull chisels are even more dangerous and should be sharpened.

:D

Regards,

Dan.

[John Todd]

One more thing to think about is that the AI chisels (I believe) are true Imperial (Inch) widths. The 2 Cherries/Hirsch are metric equivalents I believe. I've come to appreciate having chisels accurately sized the way I measure. I don't own either brand however.

[Terry Bigelow]

Let me be the first (maybe only) to say the Stubai's are great tools. I don't know many who use them and I never see them around in magazines or catalogs but they are well known for thier quality luthier tools. I have a friend who builds violins and has both chisels and caving tools from Stubai. I had a chance to use them and they are of high quality. I have some Ashley Isles chisels including a corner chisel and a pair of skew chisels. Even though it seems everyone praises them I wasn't impressed with them. The skew's were hardly skewed and of different angles and the corner chisel didn't look all that nice either. Yes, I realize these can be fixed (and I have since done so) but I guess with all the praise I had higher expectations. I'm not telling you not to get them and I'm reluctant to say anything negative about a product especially when so many others give it high praise but this was my experience and probably the exception rather than the rule. What I want to know is where did you find a set of 6 Stubai's for only $99.00??? Oh and by the way, I also have many of the other chisels mentioned and some not. I have a set of 12 Narex,2 Blue Spruce dovetail chisels, 4 Hirsch mortise chisels(and carving chisels) and set of 13 Kumagoro japanese chisels. The Narex are a decent set but not built for the long haul. The Blue Spruce are top notch of course but might not be what you're looking for. The Hirsch are great too. I love the Kumagoro's and they are a great value. I would reccomend those but I see thier not on your list. I believe they would be a little higher in price though. Check 'em out at:http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=4329

[Matt Day]

I found the Stubai's at Diefenbacher Tools. I'll probably get either the Two Cherries or the AI 6 piece set, but I'll think about it over the weekend and make my decision by Monday.

Thanks again.

[Ruston Hughes]

I think my skills have surpassed them.

Not to derail the thread, but I was intrigued by this statement. My thinking is that better skill would allow someone to get better results from lesser tools. Could you elaborate on what you are saying?

Now to the question at hand...I just recently upgraded from a set of Marples to a set of AIs. I really like them. Much better balance than the Marples and thin edges on the bevel which let me get into tighter spaces (nothing like the Blue Spruce dovetails but better than most bevel edge chisels).

Another thing that is usually suggested on these threads is go get your hands on the chisels and see how they feel before buying. The AIs have big handles for example and I've seen comments that people with small hands don't like that.

[Mike Henderson]

Not to derail the thread, but I was intrigued by this statement. My thinking is that better skill would allow someone to get better results from lesser tools. Could you elaborate on what you are saying?

Now to the question at hand...I just recently upgraded from a set of Marples to a set of AIs. I really like them. Much better balance than the Marples and thin edges on the bevel which let me get into tighter spaces (nothing like the Blue Spruce dovetails but better than most bevel edge chisels).

Another thing that is usually suggested on these threads is go get your hands on the chisels and see how they feel before buying. The AIs have big handles for example and I've seen comments that people with small hands don't like that.
This isn't directly to your point, but the reason I bought new chisels had to do with the steel in my older chisels. I found that the Marples were a bit soft and didn't hold an edge very long. I then bought some Hirsch and found the steel harder, with longer edge retention. I also purchased some Japanese chisels and really like the hard steel and the long edge retention but they chip unless you're very careful in how you use them.

So now, I choose my chisel depending on what I'm doing. The Marples are use for rough work. The Hirsch I choose if I'm cutting something and might even think of prying the wood (which will crack the Japanese chisels) and the Japanese are used for cutting and chopping when I can prevent myself from prying or other things that might chip the edge.

Shape and balance haven't been much of a factor to me yet, except getting into small dovetail corners for which I have a couple of specially modified chisels.

Mike

[JayStPeter]

Over the last year and a half or so, I've finally collected a set of LN chisels. I bought them one or two at a time and got some for my birthday and Christmas. I started out using them for the detail type work, using my old Marples for the pounding stuff, and using some super cheap Buck bros junk for the really rough stuff. But, I've been using the LNs for more and more. They hold an edge for a long time and the Marples/Buck bros don't. So, unless I'm chipping a chunk out of a 2x4 to fit a pipe when working on the basement, I use the LNs now. My recommendation is to buy LNs in the 2 sizes you use most and get more over time.

[Don Bullock]

I decided to go with the Marples Blue Chip set of 6 for $50 when I decided to replace my set of Craftsman chisels. They give me the flexibility of having all the major sizes in a basic set at a reasonable cost for now. They are certainly much better than the chisels that I had.

In the future I plan to buy some higher priced chisels as I discover which sizes I use the most. The choice at that time will be based on how I plan to use them and how they feel in my hand. Buying chisels one or two at a time, as stated by Jay, will not break my tool budget like they would if I had bought a whole set at one time. There may be some sizes that I find are not as useful as others. To echo Jay again, that gives me a set of Marples for the rougher cuts as well. My old Craftsman set are still useful when I really need to pound on something, or perhaps open a can.

[Michael Fross]

Over the last year and a half or so, I've finally collected a set of LN chisels. I bought them one or two at a time and got some for my birthday and Christmas. I started out using them for the detail type work, using my old Marples for the pounding stuff, and using some super cheap Buck bros junk for the really rough stuff. But, I've been using the LNs for more and more. They hold an edge for a long time and the Marples/Buck bros don't. So, unless I'm chipping a chunk out of a 2x4 to fit a pipe when working on the basement, I use the LNs now. My recommendation is to buy LNs in the 2 sizes you use most and get more over time.

I agree Jay. I have a set of LN bevel edge and mortise chisels and they are great. Worth every penny. However, I know they are expensive, and if you are looking for lower cost, the AI's would be great.

Michael

[George Springer]

Listen to the advise of buying one or two at a time rather than a set. I wish I had done that, especially in mortise chisels. The LN chisels are very good if you need to hit them, Blue Spruce if you don't. I've got full sets of LN BE *& mortise, Blue Spruce dovetail and skews and 1/8 and 1/4 english style mortise chisels and some various paint can openers picked up here and there. I probably use 2 sizes of the LN's and Blue Spruce, and the english mortise chisels more than anything else. Most of the LN's are still in the blue plastic wrappers. Choose the size you use and but the very best you can even if it's one at a time.

GS

[Jeffrey Larsen]

As the poster above posted, I don't want to head the post off topic, but I wondered If buying used or vintage chisels might be cost effective? This is more of a question than a suggestion as it was an uneducated idea on my part.

I have looked at several chisels and a few days ago bought an 8 piece set on ebay for about 100$. These were a set of used Erik Berg chisels.

I am a collector of antique rifles and more rescenly old planes (mostly for function as opposed to actual collecting persae--have about 20-30 at this point)---I know that with both guns and other than VERY expensive NEW LN stuff etc, planes, the old stuff is much better quality than the new;

For this reason, I wondered if suggesting that route would be a logical idea? BTW, were the ERIK BERGS a good Idea?

Just my 2 Cents, Jeff:)

[Mike Henderson]

As the poster above posted, I don't want to head the post off topic, but I wondered If buying used or vintage chisels might be cost effective? This is more of a question than a suggestion as it was an uneducated idea on my part.

I have looked at several chisels and a few days ago bought an 8 piece set on ebay for about 100$. These were a set of used Erik Berg chisels.

I am a collector of antique rifles and more rescenly old planes (mostly for function as opposed to actual collecting persae--have about 20-30 at this point)---I know that with both guns and other than VERY expensive NEW LN stuff etc, planes, the old stuff is much better quality than the new;

For this reason, I wondered if suggesting that route would be a logical idea? BTW, were the ERIK BERGS a good Idea?

Just my 2 Cents, Jeff:)
There is no truth to the belief that old tools are better than new tools. There are many quality brands of chisels offered today that have better steel, better heat treating, and possibly better finishing than many old tools. Two Cherries, Hirsch, Ashley Iles, Stubi, Blue Spruce and many more companies make chisels which are the equal of essentially all older chisels.

The only saving grace for older tools, including chisels, is that (in general)only the best survive. The worst of the old tools were scrapped long ago and probably wound up in the melt for some of the steel in new chisels.

You can purchase with confidence any quality brand of modern chisels and you'll get an excellent tool which will provide you with years of dependable service.

Mike

[Pam Niedermayer]

...For this reason, I wondered if suggesting that route would be a logical idea? BTW, were the ERIK BERGS a good Idea?

The Bergs were an excellent idea. I buy new German carving chisels, old English and German chisels, and new Japanese chisels. I've found these categories serve me very well, take long-lasting edges very nicely. I've found I much prefer laminated edges, although some non-laminated (German carving chisels, e.g.) work very well, too. They tend to come with a quality that shows, such as straight shanks, well mated handles, and sharp arrises. I enjoy using these quality chisels. There is more to a chisel than metal of a certain quality.

Pam

[Bob Malone]

Matt I was using 3 sets of chisels - now I use 2 sets:
1) My first set was the Blue Marples - they went to the BIL
2) Set of 6 Kirsch from LV (Approximately $120 CDN from LV) these took a little bit of energy to get the backs flattened - but they are a great chisel!
3) I spoiled myself and got a complete set of LN bevel and mortise chisels

The Marples went to the BIL - he had some crap garage sale items and he will get great service from the Marples. They will last forever based on his usage.

The Kirsch are tough and I like them for 2 reasons - they stay sharp and I can beat on them if necessary for tough applications. I like them!

The LN's are great and I really like them for finesse and quality. They are light in the hands; therefore, easy to manouver. They can hold an edge!

So why do I have 2 sets of chisels? One set for rough work and one for finishing. I like this setup and I will always use 2 sets from now on. The chisel sets themsleves might change in the future, but buy the best you can afford and enjoy them!

It seems quite a few woodworkers are using multiple sets of chisels. While I bought a "set" of the Kirsch and LN - it also makes sense to buy the size you use most often. So maybe its wiser to buy 2 LN at $50 each then to buy 6 "other" chisels or $100!

Good Luck with your decision.

Bob in Calgary

[Matt Day]

Thanks for all the replies everyone! I generally use power tools to do most of my work (though I'd like to use hand tools more as I progress), so for instance I hog out a mortise with the DP and clean them up with chisels. So I wouldn't be overusing them and hopefully not abusing them. ;) Because of this, I think a set of AI's would fit the bill.

If I do go the route of getting a couple LN's at a time, I have to figure out which to get that I use most. I'm thinking 3/8" and 3/4".

And as far as why I think I've outgrown my cheapo Harbor Freights, they don't sharpen very well and the handles crack easily. I understand why the theory would be that as you get more skilled you shouldn't have to rely on nice tools to do the work for you, but why would I want to struggle with sub-par tools? I do ww'ing for fun and don't want to struggle with low end tools, and buying new tools is part of the fun right!? :DThey'll be a great beater set though when I need them.

[Martin Cash]

The Bergs were an excellent idea. I buy new German carving chisels, old English and German chisels, and new Japanese chisels. I've found these categories serve me very well, take long-lasting edges very nicely. I've found I much prefer laminated edges, although some non-laminated (German carving chisels, e.g.) work very well, too. They tend to come with a quality that shows, such as straight shanks, well mated handles, and sharp arrises. I enjoy using these quality chisels. There is more to a chisel than metal of a certain quality.

Pam

Pam,
are you only referring to the Japanese chisels when you talk of laminated steel?
I have heard other woodworkers say the same about laminated chisels but they implied that other brands were so made.
If not only the Japanese chisels, then which others are laminated as well?
Thanks
MC:confused::confused::confused:

[Michael Schwartz]

I have been using Marples and they will take a really good edge and hold it long enough to get some work done.

The buck bros chisels are cheap and they seem to me to be excessively hardened, so they won't hold a keen edge. However they are really durable and you can't beat them for rough carpentry work. I keep a set with my framing tools. The solid steel handles are nice for hitting with a hammer too.

Currently my best chisels are two henry tailor (woodcraft) socket firmer timberframing chisels, 1-1/2 and 2". They take and hold a sharp edge and because they are so massive cut really nicely. I find myself grabbing them for miniscule tasks.

The Marples are great for occasional work, or if 90% of work is with power tools. If you want to do serious work with hand tools get the best set you can possibly afford. If you can't afford anything serious right now, get a set of the Marples, and then save up for something great. Then you will have a set of decent chisles for rougher work, as well as a fine set for work that deserves it.

[Wilbur Pan]

Pam,
are you only referring to the Japanese chisels when you talk of laminated steel?
Nearly every Japanese chisel is laminated. I can't think of a currently made Japanese chisel that is not laminated.

Rarely, Western style chisels are laminated, and usually those are heavy duty chisels (mortise chisels, framing chisels, firmer chisels). Some quick googling around found an example of a Western style mortise chisel (http://www.thebestthings.com/chisels.htm) (second item on the list, made by John Green). This page (http://www.antique-used-tools.com/witherby_chisels.htm) lists two Witherby chisels that are laminated. But it seems that laminated Western style chisels are much more the exception than the rule.

[Matt Day]

Well I just pulled the trigger on the AI's. I think they'll suit my needs just fine.

For those of you who recommended buying one to two LN's at a time, I think I'll take that advice and apply it toward mortising chisels.

Thanks for all the input and information!

[David Weaver]

Good idea on the mortising chisels. I'm doing the same thing - buy one when I need it for a project, and I pulled the trigger on the Hirsch firmer chisels last Thursday or Friday.

Let us know how the AI chisels turn out - maybe make me feel bad for not following forum advice exactly and going with the Hirsch chisels instead.

[Mike Henderson]

Nearly every Japanese chisel is laminated. I can't think of a currently made Japanese chisel that is not laminated.

Rarely, Western style chisels are laminated, and usually those are heavy duty chisels (mortise chisels, framing chisels, firmer chisels). Some quick googling around found an example of a Western style mortise chisel (http://www.thebestthings.com/chisels.htm) (second item on the list, made by John Green). This page (http://www.antique-used-tools.com/witherby_chisels.htm) lists two Witherby chisels that are laminated. But it seems that laminated Western style chisels are much more the exception than the rule.
I have some early mortise chisels that are laminated - they look very similar to the ones that Wilbur posted a link to.

The reasons for laminating a western chisel are different than for Japanese chisels. At one time, (pre-1900) good steel was very expensive. It was made by the crucible method which required a lot of preliminary steps, and special ore. So, in order to save money, western chisel makers would only put a strip of good steel on a chisel, where the cutting edge is - very much the same way a Japanese chisel is made. Because lamination was done on western chisels for cost reasons, you normally only see it on large chisels, where the savings from using cheaper metal for the rest of the chisel was sufficient to overcome the cost of processing to do the lamination.

The difference between a Japanese chisel and a laminated western chisel is in the heat treating. The Japanese chisel is treated so that the steel in the edge is much harder than in a western chisel. This makes that laminated edge brittle so the softer backer iron is required for toughness. If a Japanese chisel was not laminated, and was heat treated to make it as hard as Japanese chisels are, they'd likely break in half during heavy use. So lamination is necessary in a Japanese chisel. Note that the backer iron in a Japanese chisel must be low carbon iron so that it does not harden during the heat treatment.

On western chisels, the steel was not heat treated to make it as hard as a Japanese chisel so the backer metal can be low quality steel as well as low carbon iron. If the backer metal is low quality steel, it will take the heat treatment, but the overall heat treatment is not sufficient to make the metal brittle. You'll notice the difference in the "shine" of the metals in a western chisel and a Japanese chisel. In a Japanese chisel, the steel edge is shiny but the backer metal is dull and gray (when you sharpen the tool to a high grit). In a laminated western chisel, it's tougher to see the difference because the backer metal is often steel and shines almost as well as the edge steel. But if it's laminated, and you polish the edge, you can see a difference in the shine of the two laminated pieces of metal, and the boundary between them. You just have to look harder.

Back in the 19th century, heat treatment was not a scientific process. It was done by eye, which led to significant variation in the hardness of a chisel. Today, laminated western chisels which have iron backings and which were hardened more than probably intended (but not as much as a Japanese chisel) are prized by woodworkers who find these chisels take a good edge and hold that edge longer than other, non-laminated, chisels.

A personal story. I have several English style mortise chisels, all laminated, from the late 1800's. One of them has backer iron that's so bad you can see the slag inclusions with the naked eye - they look like black spots and veins in the metal. More than likely, that metal is wrought iron made from pig iron in a puddling furnace, and the furnace worker was not very careful or skilled.

Anyway, enough rambling.

Mike

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam,
are you only referring to the Japanese chisels when you talk of laminated steel?
I have heard other woodworkers say the same about laminated chisels but they implied that other brands were so made.
If not only the Japanese chisels, then which others are laminated as well?

No, many of my old English chisels are laminated, largely because of what Michael says (although we probably disagree about the extreme hardness/brittleness of Japanese tool steel); but no new ones so far as I know, which goes a long way toward explaining why I mostly buy Japanese when I buy new chisels.

Pam

[Don Boys]

If you plan to do frame and panel construction then you may want to make sure the chisel and whatever you use to cut the groove are the same size.
For example I cut my 1/4" groves with a Stanly 45. Therefore I want a 1/4 in chisel. The LN is an exact 1/4 while the Two Cherries is 6.00 mm. Not the same. I would guess the Marples is a true 1/4 ".

If you stick with hand tool work you will eventually get the LN. I bought Marples followed by Two Cherries and finally LN. The Marples were sold, I will grind the two cherries at around 20 degrees for paring, and the LN will stay with a 25 degree grind 30+ degree hone for non-paring work.

Don Boys

[Pam Niedermayer]

...If you stick with hand tool work you will eventually get the LN. ...

Don, no offense, but that's nonsense.

Pam

[Martin Cash]

Thanks everyone for the input on laminated chisels.
I am particularly interested to know which brands of older English and American chisels might have been laminated in construction.

On another tack here is a review of some bevelled edge chisels that came from another forum:
http://www.spehar-toolworks.com/Arti...sel-Review.doc (http://www.spehar-toolworks.com/Articles/Chisel-Review.doc)

It might help some who are undecided about chisel purchases.
Regards
MC:):):)

[James Mittlefehldt]

On another tack here is a review of some bevelled edge chisels that came from another forum:
http://www.spehar-toolworks.com/Arti...sel-Review.doc (http://www.spehar-toolworks.com/Articles/Chisel-Review.doc)

It might help some who are undecided about chisel purchases.
Regards
MC:):):)

That was an interesting test and thanks for posting it. I bought the Narex chisels that Lee VAlley sell at a time when I needed new bench chisels and could not afford anything overly spendy. What he said in his tests about them basically supports what I found in using them. That is they hold an edge fairly well, and the backs are quite flat when purchsed.

I was pleasantly surprised but chalked it up to my naturally parsimonious nature. You could do a lot worse than buying those.

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks everyone for the input on laminated chisels.
I am particularly interested to know which brands of older English and American chisels might have been laminated in construction.
MC:):):)
I don't know older chisel brands well enough to be able to answer your question. My experience is that almost all older (say, pre 1900) chisels of significant size are laminated. I have not seen regular bench chisels that were laminated but some may exist. My experience has been primarily with English style mortise chisels, which Wilbur Pan posted pictures of.

But other than the desire to own a chisel with a history, a laminated Western chisel may not be any better than a non-laminated chisel, especially a modern non-laminated chisel. Today, steel is so good, uniform, and low cost that we don't realize how bad steel was prior to about WWI. The only thing that lamination tells you on an older Western chisel is that the maker tried to put the best steel available on the edge - but that “best steel” may have had certain defects by today’s standards. That’s why you don’t see any modern Western chisels made with laminations – it just doesn’t provide any advantages.

A story that illustrates how bad steel could be, even after the Bessemer process came about, is that Carnegie Steel was contracted to make a large steel I beam for a Chicago high rise. Carnegie used the Bessemer process and had primarily been making railroad rails. They made the beam and it shipped to Chicago. When it arrived in Chicago, it was two beams - it had fractured in transit! The problem was that the Bessemer process would reduce the amount of carbon in pig iron (to make steel) but would not remove enough of the other impurities, especially phosphorus which makes steel brittle. Once the story of the broken I beam got around, no builder would use Bessemer steel in a building - they all required steel made through the basic open hearth process which did a better job of removing impurities. To be fair, there are two places where steel can be "messed up" - in the production of the steel, and in the rolling. Carnegie rolled steel "fast" and that may have contributed to the problem with the I-beam, but the Bessemer process got the blame.

[just an added comment] Lamination is necessary in a Japanese chisel because of the tempering (heat treating) of the steel in the edge lamination. While Pam and I may slightly disagree about how brittle the steel becomes through tempering, I maintain that it is brittle enough to require the iron backing to prevent the possibility of the tool breaking in half. Tool makers are pragmatic – if the laminated backing was not necessary, the Japanese tool makers would not do it.

Mike

[Martin Cash]

Thanks Mike for your background information on laminated steels.
This is a really interesting topic and I'd love to find out more.
Are there any publications that you know of that deal with the topic in more detail?
Fascinated
MC:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks Mike for your background information on laminated steels.
This is a really interesting topic and I'd love to find out more.
Are there any publications that you know of that deal with the topic in more detail?
Fascinated
MC:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I got interested in the history of iron and steel after I bought a couple of old wooden planes and looked at the hand forged laminated blades. I started wondering about the people who made those blades, which then led me to thinking about what they made those blades out of. I started wondering, "Where did that iron and steel come from?" I knew about Bessemer and his converter but, before my question, I had never thought about how steel was made prior to Bessemer. I started looking for books on the history of iron and steel and this is what I found:

A good book on the history of the iron and steel industry is "A Nation of Steel" by Thomas J. Misa. It's US centric and is not a good technical book (not much discussion on the chemical reactions), but really good on the industry itself.

Another good book (American focus) is "American Iron 1607-1900" by Robert B. Gordon. It has a small amount of technical information but is mostly a history book.

Not as highly recommended, but worth reading is "The Epic of Steel" by Douglas A Fisher. Fisher was a Public Relations flack for US Steel so the book is highly slanted - but US Steel was the major steel producer in the world for many years so there's some interesting stuff in there.

I didn't particularly like this book - "Out of the Fiery Furnace - the impact of Metals on the History of Mankind" by Robert Raymond but you could take a look.

A very good, but highly technical, book on the structure of metals is "A History of Metallography - The Development of Ideas on the Structure of Metals before 1890" by Cyril Stanley Smith. The value of this book is that it points out the importance of the structure of the metal, and how the structure affects the properties of the final product (the structure is determined by how the metal is "finished" rather than the chemical composition of the metal). There's a big section on Henry Clifton Sorby who was a major pioneer in this field.

Finally, for those interested in how things were done pre-Bessemer, an excellent two volume set is "Steelmaking before Bessemer" by K.C. Barraclough. The first volume is on making blister steel and the second on crucible steel. These two volumes are essentially unavailable so you'll have to get them from the library. Barraclough's work has a UK focus. Barraclough has a couple of other books on the history of the iron and steel industry but I haven't read them yet. BTW, when you see the words "Cast Steel" on a blade, it means crucible steel.

Also, poke around Wikipedia. I don't remember exactly what words I used, but I think if you start with "history of ferrous metallurgy" you'll find something, and that will lead you to more.

One thing that struck me in reading about the history of iron and steel is how physical and dangerous the work was. Yet for most of the history of iron and steel, it was artisan work and it took a long time to learn. The artisan had to know, from working the melt and the looks of it, what to do - whether to raise or lower the temperature, to add certain fluxes, and when the process was finished. All this had to be learned from a more experienced artisan through an apprentice process. The weight he (and it was always a man) had to handle was backbreaking and it was white hot. One slip and a leg or arm was gone - and there was no worker's comp or disability pay those days. Although not discussed, I'm sure that many ironworkers were disabled from lung disease from the fumes they breathed every day. And yet they persevered, learning by experiment and improving their ability to make more and better iron and steel.

We owe a significant debt to those unnamed pioneers who laid the foundations for our modern society.

Mike

[Bill White]

I have been fortunate to find W. Butcher cast steel chisels over the years. Not only are they old (like me), but they sharpen and hold the edge beautifully. I know that ya can't just run out and find these all over the place. It's taken me several years of antiquin' to collect them. Keep a eye open for the old cast steel stuff.
Bill

[Ruston Hughes]

Well I just pulled the trigger on the AI's. I think they'll suit my needs just fine.

For those of you who recommended buying one to two LN's at a time, I think I'll take that advice and apply it toward mortising chisels.



Congratulations on the AI's! you won't be disappointed.

[Martin Cash]

Thanks again Mike.
I have tried my local library for the books you mentioned, to no avail.
Resorted to Encyclopaedia Britannica.
Fantastic history of steel making here - about thirty pages of close typed material, complete with diagrams.
My weekend is going to be very informative.
Cheers
MC:eek::eek::eek:

[Mike Henderson]

Thanks again Mike.
I have tried my local library for the books you mentioned, to no avail.
Resorted to Encyclopaedia Britannica.
Fantastic history of steel making here - about thirty pages of close typed material, complete with diagrams.
My weekend is going to be very informative.
Cheers
MC:eek::eek::eek:
For anyone who might be interested, Amazon has "A Nation of Steel (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0801860520/ref=dp_olp_2/002-5715437-7804800?ie=UTF8&qid=1181316168&sr=8-1)" available used for $4.00. "American Iron (http://www.amazon.com/American-1607-1900-Hopkins-Studies-Technology/dp/0801868165/ref=sr_1_2/002-5715437-7804800?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181316710&sr=1-2)" is not as inexpensive - even used.

The library in our town is quite small and doesn't carry any of these specialized books but can get almost anything through interlibrary loan from larger libraries. That's how I was able to read the "Steelmaking before Bessemer" books. Ask at your library about interlibrary loan.

Mike

[Jim Grill]

I just sharpen an old flathead screwdriver on the concrete floor and get a BFH. :eek:

I'm joking, of course.

IT'S FRIDAAAAAAY!

[Elliott Cameron]

I'd advise you to stay away from any "NEW" Marples chisels as they are not the same as the old Marples. Irwin has taken over ther manufacture and ownership of Marples and they are not the same as the old marples. I learned the hard way of the differences.
If you're in the market for some great chisels, the Ashley Isles are the way to go.

Elliott

[Derek Cohen]

Gee, a topic on chisels is almost as emotional as a discussion on sharpening ... mmm... is there ever a "discussion" about sharpening?!

I cannot offer much about high end chisels - which tend to be Japanese - but I do either own or have used quite a number of vintage and new chisels, and will say something about these.

I must first ask why the obsession with buying sets? I have nothing against owning sets, and even buying sets, but when you are starting out to build a collection of decent chisels then aiming for a set when you have limited funds is going to limit the quality of the chisels you end up with. If you like LN chisels, then buy one or two as you can afford them. This is an especially sane idea when you already own a set of chisels.

Secondly, if I were making an initial purchase of a few chisels, not a set, then the three sizes I use most are 1/4", 1/2" and 3/4". I rarely pare with a chisel over 1" (although I do have them up to 2"). For dovetails I use a 1/8", 1/4" and 3/8" mostly.

Some chisels are better at the switch over between heavy bench use (i.e. being hit with a mallet), paring (being pushed only), and dovetail use (very narrow bevel edges). Only two varieties come to mind here, the LN bench chisels and the Bergs.

I only pare with my Bergs, preferring to turn to other chisels when it comes to using a mallet. I rehandled them in a manner similar to Japanese paring chisels for extra control (the Berg handles are too short for my taste).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Chisels-storageMay2007.jpg

The Bergs are on the lower right. To the left are Japanese chisels.

I have a a mix of Koyamaichi, Matsumura (excellent value) and Iyoroi dovetail, bench and slicks. To put the LNs into perspective, many of these cost as much or more than the LNs. In other words, as nice as the LNs are (and they are), they are really only mid-price tools. Still, it is possible to get quite inexpensive Japanese bench chisels, and these are still sure to be excellent in terms of edge holding and sharpness.

One of my favourite chisel is a Witherby. The ones I have are butt length and have a very nice balance - very similar to the Stanley #720 (the ones that the LNs are copied from). The steel of the Witherby is second to none. If I only had one set of chisels to take to a desert island, ones that balanced all the good qualities, this would be they. Wack them with a mallet or pare delicately, these are great chisels.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Chisels-WitherbyMay2007.jpg

What the Witherbys lack is the very narrow side bevels that make dovetail paring easier. The best here are the Blue Spruce. No question (their sides are actually concave). I have sizes from 1/8" to 3/4" (the latter is a custom).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Dovetailchisels2.jpg

There are some real crappy chisels out there. I recently bought a Irwin/Record/Marples to make a custom chisel for a friend. It could not hold an edge and I had to re-temper it three times to get it right.

Remember that you can buy in haste and repend at your leisure. My advice is to decide what qualities you are looking for, and what chisels best reflect these qualities, then decide how you can acquire them. Patience is a virtue here (with the exception of the Blue Spruce, all the others were bought one at a time).

Regards from Perth

Derek

ps There are non-laminated Japanese chisels. These are made from HSS.