There's flat and there's FLAT

[Jeff Raymond]

This is my first post here.

Had a big shop a number of years ago, then we took our show on the road in an RV. Now I am setting up a new shop.

In the day, I used a 16" jointer and 20" planer with rough stock. Jointed the stock FLAT and then planed to thickness.

Of course, now I am trying to figure out a way to get the same product without spending the big boy 3-phase dough and would appreciate any comments on other's experience in doing the same.

I am building furniture, some case work, so no room for twisties.

Thanks in advance.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Router bridge~!! You can build 'em as big and as flat as you please.
Google is your friend.


Meanwhile - and then there is "flat."

Years back I had a machine shop job that required two faces of a work piece to be within nanometers (bandwidths of light) of flatness and squareness.

That was the project where I was first exposed to hand lapping in a serious way. Even had a light box and ground glass gauges you'd pass over the surfaces and they'd actually show you the bands of light in waves - or if you'd lapped the work right more straight-ish lines the flatter you were.

[Jim Becker]

Jeff, don't rule out a vintage wide jointer...even with a three-phase direct drive machine you can use a phase converter. There are also 12" jointers available now for "reasonable" cost (as compared to in the past) as well as nice Euro J/P combinations which give you the size as well as space conservation in the shop. (I use a 350mm ~14" Mini Max J/P combo) These are certainly a little narrower than the "really big" tools, but still offer the wide jointer advantage the majority of the time.

Other methods available to you include the router bridge that Cliff mentions and using a sled and a thickness planer. Both of these are very inexpensive, portable and functional. Not the same as an aircraft carrier-like wide jointer, but...

Oh...WELCOME TO THE 'CREEK!!

[Jeff Raymond]

Wow, thanks for the welcome and quick replies.

One of the things I am thinking about is buying my lumber FAS S3S for a bit until I find the right combo. Of course there is a premium, but I am thinking that the bucks for the hardware might be saved in the interim by looking for the best deal.

Second thought, how the heck am I gonna offload a 1700 lb jointer off the bed of a truck to ground level?

Are any of you, well, really strong? :D

[Brian Kent]

Isn't an extra 1700 lbs in your RV going to use up a lot of gas?

[Jeff Raymond]

We were able to flip the RV for what we paid for it. The deal with The Boss was that if I gave up the RV I get my stuff and she gets the house.

Little does she know what I have in mind...

Sooooo, any ideas on offloading from a commercial truck to ground level? I thought about a ramp only long enough to imagine myself on the gravity end of the dang thing. (Bad).

[Jim Becker]

One of the things I am thinking about is buying my lumber FAS S3S for a bit until I find the right combo.

That certainly saves some time, but does not get you flat...nor does it get you consistent thickness.

[Gary Herrmann]

We were able to flip the RV for what we paid for it. The deal with The Boss was that if I gave up the RV I get my stuff and she gets the house.

Little does she know what I have in mind...

Sooooo, any ideas on offloading from a commercial truck to ground level? I thought about a ramp only long enough to imagine myself on the gravity end of the dang thing. (Bad).

How about paying the extra for lift gate delivery? If you have a garage or outbuilding shop, you can easily talk the guy into putting the machine in your shop.

'Course I have a basement shop, so an 8" jointer will probably be it for me...

Welcome to the creek.

[John Bush]

Good morning All,
I have a lot of walnut and cherry slabs found in our old barn and most have some twist in them. They are 2-3.5" thick X 14-16" wide and some are 8'+ long. My 8" jointer and Parks 12" planer aren't up to the dimensional task and my vision of a router bridge seems to be a possible answer to the how flat is flat question. Could any of you better informed folks share some insight into how it works or references to info sites. Thanks, John.

[Bob McGovern]

Hi, Jeff. A portable bench top for reference surface, some hand planes, and a small planer might serve. Tho I couldn't live without my jointer. Some winding sticks and a good straightedge put you (technologically) well ahead of some of the best furniture makers alive or that ever lived.

Guess I don't apply machinist's exactitude to woodworking. Doesn't matter if you lap a walnut plank to perfect flatness and an even ten thousandths in thickness. 'Cause wood MOVES. Yesterday I milled and glued up nineteen door panels, up to 18" wide, with a 6" jointer and 12" planer. They are pretty flat, and fairly consistent in thickness (prior to sanding!). They are certainly flat enough for cabinet doors.

If your panels are pretty flat, and your mortise & tenon joints squeaky tight, and your cases more-or-less square, you are doing fine. Not much need for micrometers in woodworking. I use a dial gauge for setting jointer knives, but not for wood itself. Differing requirements.

[Joe Jensen]

This is my first post here.

Had a big shop a number of years ago, then we took our show on the road in an RV. Now I am setting up a new shop.

In the day, I used a 16" jointer and 20" planer with rough stock. Jointed the stock FLAT and then planed to thickness.

Of course, now I am trying to figure out a way to get the same product without spending the big boy 3-phase dough and would appreciate any comments on other's experience in doing the same.

I am building furniture, some case work, so no room for twisties.

Thanks in advance.

How much space will you have and do you have a budget?...joe

[Wayne Morley]

Good morning All,
I have a lot of walnut and cherry slabs found in our old barn and most have some twist in them. They are 2-3.5" thick X 14-16" wide and some are 8'+ long. My 8" jointer and Parks 12" planer aren't up to the dimensional task and my vision of a router bridge seems to be a possible answer to the how flat is flat question. Could any of you better informed folks share some insight into how it works or references to info sites. Thanks, John.

This is what I think is a router bridge. The router mounts on the sliding piece and moves back and forth. The bridge slides on the support rails, and the work-piece is under the bridge. By sliding the router back and forth in the bridge and up and down the supports, you can flatten the work-piece. It takes a bit some time, but it is very effective.

[Roland Chung]

Wayne's image sparked my interest. I did a search and found this:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=30316&highlight=router+bridge

It was the only item to come up in a search of titles for the words "router bridge". Does anyone have any good links for details on a router bridge (step by step) large enough for flattening a bench top?

Thanks in advance!
RC

[Wayne Morley]

Wayne's image sparked my interest. I did a search and found this:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=30316&highlight=router+bridge

It was the only item to come up in a search of titles for the words "router bridge". Does anyone have any good links for details on a router bridge (step by step) large enough for flattening a bench top?

Thanks in advance!
RC

I used a device just like the one shown in my last post to flatten my bench. The only difference was that the side rails were attached, with screws, to the side of the bench, because I didn’t have anything large enough to support the top and the rails.

The bridge is just made from ¾ birch plywood. The sides of the bridge provide the stiffness, so that it doesn’t sag in the center when in use. The length of the bridge is long enough to span the width of the bench top, and the supports are a bit longer than the length of the top. The only critical part is, the supports must be straight and parallel with each other in order to produce a flat top.

This is a photo of the bench.

[Al Willits]

That certainly saves some time, but does not get you flat...nor does it get you consistent thickness.


Assuming store bought boards are not consistent enough to use as a base to run rough sawn boards though a planer, and if you don't have enough table lenght to use a router, and you'd rather not cut rough sawn boards down to whatever size your jointer is, how do you run them though a planer to make them consistent in thickness??

Maybe make a couple shorter boards with the router and use them as a base, feeding them though as the rough sawn board goes though??

Or??

Al...who has a 8" jointer and wider than 8" boards to deal with...

[Jeff Raymond]

Joe: This might sound pretty weird, but I am going to be using a 24 x 30 garage, which will be insulated and heated with a nice stairway up to the second floor. My idea here is that the first floor would be the place to store rough lumber and be a milling area; cutting down the rough stock to more or less use-able dimensions, then up to the 2nd story for building stuff. The ground floor, unfortunately, has 4 lally-columns right down the middle, so that would interfere with swing space for beds and larger pieces...assuming I wind up with the big boy gear for prepping the rough lumber.

I don't mind the step thing and would rather have a single larger space, but then I would have to buy even more tools to clutter it up better.

Y'know.

Everyone has a budget I guess, but my wife owes me big time on this whole deal, so I can get what I want.

Now that only comes around every now and then.

Heh-heh.

[Joe Jensen]

Jeff, I'm pretty old school. Here is my workflow.
1) rough cut the parts needed for a panel.
2) Joint one side of each piece to get it flat
3) Plane to make board consistent thickness and then plane board to final thickness, attempt to remove the same amount from both sides.
4) Joint one edge
5) Rip to final width
6) trim one end square
7) cut to length

With this workflow all the boards I use are flat and straight. I never have issues at glueup, and I don't need biscuits, dowels, dominos, or anything other than a straight edge to glue up. Time consuming, but precise.

With this workflow I don't need to flatten panels after glueup and I go from clamps to 120 grit orbital. No drum sander and no widebelt.

Today I have an 8" jointer and a 12" powermatic model 100 planer with a byrd head. This setup has not constrained me so far, but I am looking to upgrade to a 12" jointer.

If I was going to have the dream shop within reason I'd have a 12" jointer, an old 18-24" powermatic planer with Byrd head, and quality widebelt sander. Ideally I'd prefer a belt feed orbital finish sander, but I think they are only industrial size and like 1/2 million. I'd also have a quality slider table saw. I have a 14" dewalt RAS setup as a dedicated 90 degree crosscut station with a Biesemeyer fence system. A large enough slider would replace this, but it would take a lot of space.

With the 2 story space, will you be able to move projects up and down the stairs with reasonable effort? It I had such a space I'd consider steel beams to eliminate the columns downstairs, and I'd use the upstairs for finishing, carving, handtools, and wood storage. With my workflow I end up using the jointer, planer, TS, and RAS all the time. Having to run up and down the stairs 30 times a day would get old quick.

Sorry for the rambling, just lots of thoughts and I'm typing this as I'm on phone conference calls this afternoon...joe

[Jeff Raymond]

Thanks so much Joe. I have used just the system you suggest for moving from rough lumber-->dimension stock. I guess I was asking the broader community if my old fashioned method was still the way to go and it seems as if it is. Some things never change.

Your comment about the steel is a good one. I just went out and looked at the prospective space and it has an 8" I beam at the moment. My previous shop was bigger and I had put in an 18" I beam so no columns. The house has had an addition since the garage was built, so I am not sure if I can build in a pocket on one of the ends for more steel, which would be pretty nifty.

The stairs are a good 4' wide, which is nice. I envision the 2nd story space once sheetrocked with lots of light. Thinking about putting in daylight color bulbs (flourescent) for great lighting in addition to the two end windows.

So at the moment I am going to keep probing around for a 12-16" jointer and likely the 20" planer with a rotophase genset. Seems as if the 3-phase equipment is so much better and less expensive that the 3-phase genset makes sense in the long run.

There is some older Tannewitz equipment out there that looks pretty good that I have seen. It would seem that if you can pick out some good older stuff it may be a wise move.

Mostly I make beds and tables, some case pieces, and this is mostly for fun, but there is always some clown out there who wants to buy my stuff, so what the heck, eh?

How do you write and talk on the phone at the same time? I tell my wife I can't listen to her when I am on the internet. So far so good. :D

Thanks all for your kind comments!

[John Lucas]

You can always rip the wide boards, joint and thickness them and put back together. Dont joint any of the edges that you ripped. Use a good rip blade that features "glue line rip" and you should come out with wide panels

[Jim Becker]

You can always rip the wide boards, joint and thickness them and put back together.

One can do that, but oh....how sinful!!! ;) :o :p

[Joe Jensen]

One can do that, but oh....how sinful!!! ;) :o :p

Jim, where do you use super wide boards, and how do you keep them from cupping? Other than a plank style dining table with wide AND thick book matched planks I don't see that much practical application for wide. Controlling cupping is wha stops me...joe

[Jim Becker]

A stable board (properly dried) and construction techniques that allow for wood movement without a "change of plane" deal with it. The wide board(s) have to be supported such that they don't get the opportunity to "cup". I'll take wide boards and use them for a table top or casework top any day. And when I can't use a wide board, I'll carefully grain and color match multiple boards to insure they look like one board. It takes more material to do that, but the end result is very pleasing.

[David Klug]

Roland I made a bridge to flatten my work bench by building a bridge like they show. I was a little wider than the bench top and I used bed rails clamped to the edges for it to ride on. They have to be perfectly straight and I just slid the bridge on the rails while I routed accross the top with a 1/2" straight bit. It took a little while to do a 3'x6' top but it came out very nice.The first thing you want to do is find your low spot and take off from there.

DK

[J.R. Rutter]

Jeff, Do you know about woodweb's machinery exchange? If you keep an eye on it, you will find some interesting older equipment showing up.