Saw nib?

[Terry Bigelow]

I know this is probably a dumb question but what is the nib for on a hand saw? I have seen them before and thought is was a manufacturing mistake or something. Now I have bought a few Disstons and noticed people apoligizing for the nib missing on a saw! Is it just a Disston thing? I'm sure there's many of you who know (Mike W.) but I'm clueless!! Thanks.

[Bill Houghton]

There are lots of old galoot tales:

*They're there to hold a tooth guard on.
*They can be sharpened to start a cut (why this would be easier than the traditional pulling back of the saw is not clear to me).
etc.

My theory is that they exist so people will ask why they exist, but that's a bit tautological and so probably not true.

I'm told Henry Disston himself said, more or less, that they were the fashion, so they put them on. They do add a nice fillip to the end of the blade.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Like Bill mentions, Disston said they served no useful purpose but to break the sightline on the long straight back.

Truth is, they existed long before ol' Henry. But what they were for, if anything but decoration is yet to be discovered in some dusty tome.

Take care, Mike

[Terry Bigelow]

Thanks guys. Interesting stuff. The tale of the nib! I had a feeling you could help Mike, especially after I went to your site(for the 600th time) and saw that some of yours have it as well.

[Ryan Cathey]

There was a very interesting thread about this, actually I think there were a couple of 'em. I believe it was on the UK workshop forum. Both were quite informative.

[ralph cox]

:confused:Bill,so thats the etymology of nibbling? Sorry couldn't resist a little low humor on the subject at this time in the AM!:D :D :D
Regards,Ralph

[David Gilbert]

I hate to admit my ignorance but I don't know what a "saw nib" is. Even Goggle doesn't direct me to an answer. I went to the Wenzloff website and it had some beautiful saws but none indicated they had the mysterious nib.

Can someone post a link or a picture of a saw nib?

Thanks,
Dave

[Ryan Cathey]

On the end opposite of the handle on the top of the blade it's that little hump. If that helps any lol

[Brian Boru]

Dave,
As Ryan stated - the little 'nib' toward the top front.

http://www.hyperkitten.com/pics/tools/hwpeace/p27.jpg

http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/glossary/glssawillus.gif

[David Gilbert]

I appreciate your speedy replies.

Now that I know what it is I will keep my eyes open for them......

Thanks,

[Bill Houghton]

David Gilbert's post reminds me that saw nibs do serve a useful purpose in modern life: the nib serves as the quickest way to spot an older saw at garage sales.

Just as the full oval tote on a metal bench plane serves as the immediate clue that the plane is worth picking up for further inspection.

[Greg Crawford]

Neat sight about older saws. It also states that the nib is only for decoration.

http://disstonianinstitute.com/glossary.html

[jacob butler]

I recently bought a couple of old saws with nibs. Never had nibs before. I sharpened them up and had a go - and the reason for the nib was immediately obvious: they work as a depth gauge to tell you not to withdraw the saw any(much) further before starting on the down stroke.
Really useful esp if you have several saws of different lengths, or a new and unfamiliar saw.
I'm going to add nibs to my other nibless saws.

cheers
Jacob
PS The fact that Disston says they are for decoration only can probably be ignored - traditional knowledge can be passed on without the particular bearer, however expert in the field, necessarily knowing the whys and wherefores.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Jacob,

That is one of the oft told reasons for a nib. Problem is, skew-backs that do not have a nib outsold nib'd saws once they began to appear. So much so straight-backed saws (with nibs) eventually were dropped by makers altogether.

Why? Worth pondering if one has a spare moment.

Truth is, if one is at "working speed", it is too difficult to see the nib. Like all other hand tool functions, sawing is a muscle memory skill. A workman might have had 2-3 different length hand saws, but knowing when to stop the withdrawl isn't a difficult thing to learn.

As for Disston, well, his account cannot be completely ignored either. Like I mentioned above, because nibs existed so long before him I suspect that the whys were lost. That he, like his peers before and during his lifetime, added the nib was simply tradition by then.

Good luck finding attribution in an old text. But if you find one, please share it. This question has been discussed longer than most issues in woodworking.

Take care, Mike

[Bill Brehme]

The nib is there to keep you from accidentally using the saw upside down!!!:D:D:D

[Alex Carrera]

not a single one of my Disstons (an enormous collection of three) has a nib. I feel left out.

[Thomas Knighton]

not a single one of my Disstons (an enormous collection of three) has a nib. I feel left out.

Don't be. I don't have any with the nib either. :(

Maybe we should form a nibless support group?

Tom

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

The nib is built into the saw (at some cost mind you) for one purpose.

With the prevalence of the internet and books on trade skills and the modern penchant of sharing technical information freely the nib no longer serves any purpose.

In times past guilds protected the trades and prevented unauthorized dissemination of the skills.
When the Joiner or Carpenter was being bothered by people peering over his shoulder trying to suss out his trade there-by making illicit ingress to his guild vocation without having served the proper apprenticeship or paid the necessary dues, the Nib on the saw came into play.


The tradesman would affix a rather large-ish rubber band to the nib, swing the saw to point at the offending observer draw back on the rubber band and let fly thusly discouraging the person from stealing the tradesman's craft.

[Jim Dunn]

The nib is built into the saw (at some cost mind you) for one purpose.

With the prevalence of the internet and books on trade skills and the modern penchant of sharing technical information freely the nib no longer serves any purpose.

In times past guilds protected the trades and prevented unauthorized dissemination of the skills.
When the Joiner or Carpenter was being bothered by people peering over his shoulder trying to suss out his trade there-by making illicit ingress to his guild vocation without having served the proper apprenticeship or paid the necessary dues, the Nib on the saw came into play.


The tradesman would affix a rather large-ish rubber band to the nib, swing the saw to point at the offending observer draw back on the rubber band and let fly thusly discouraging the person from stealing the tradesman's craft.

Well that was a lot of reading to get to a laugh. I was waiting on some kinda insightful Dali Lama type ending:eek::D:D

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Well that was a lot of reading to get to a laugh. I was waiting on some kinda insightful Dali Lama type ending:eek::D:D

lol
I couldn't resist.

There was a time when that extra measure of labor and care was par for the course. I'll bet the nib is just an out growth of that.

[Chuck Hamman]

PS The fact that Disston says they are for decoration only can probably be ignored - traditional knowledge can be passed on without the particular bearer, however expert in the field, necessarily knowing the whys and wherefores.

Jacob,
In other words, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up! :D

[j.e.mike tobey]

So, where does one find NOS rubberband projectiles?mt(PS- are they somehow medallioned?)

[Stephen Shepherd]

I am of the opinion that it is for starting a saw cut, I was never allowed to pull a saw the wrong direction to start a cut.

As for decoration, it is not decorative.

As for holding on a tooth guard, how many old ones of those have you seen?

Stephen

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

So, where does one find NOS rubberband projectiles?mt(PS- are they somehow medallioned?)

Ya gotta be a member of the guild.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

The nib is built into the saw (at some cost mind you) for one purpose. [yadda yadda yadda]


Aside from my deep scholarly penetration into the history and meaning of Nibs as a way of protecting the guild craft:

What about nibs as a way for the saw makers to make their saws identifiable from a distance on sight?
You know, the saw is in a till or in use or for whatever reason the etching or stamping isn't readily visible and the saw makers thought of a way to set their saws apart. A little decorative nib. Of course that nib stood proud of the cut or the till so at a glance you could tell that this craftsman used saws by this or that manufacturer. Sort of exactly like the modern trend of making you into a perambulant billboard for Nike or Adidas or whatever. Pretty soon every maker had had their own nib style and location.
It's just an untested theory.

Of course the death knell to this idea would be that several makers used the same nib in the same location on the saw. And I don't know whether nib geometry and location was commonly shared among makers.

[Jim Koepke]

Pretty soon every maker had had their own nib style and location.
It's just an untested theory.

Of course the death knell to this idea would be that several makers used the same nib in the same location on the saw. And I don't know whether nib geometry and location was commonly shared among makers.

Maybe the nib was employed by one maker to see who was copying their design.

jtk

[Jack Camillo]

quick focus point to tell if the saw was straight up and down prior to beginning the cut.

[Hank Knight]

You guys are much kinder to the OP than they are over at Wood Central. My buddy, Ray Binnicker, got dragged over the coals for asking the same quesiton. This is truly a kinder, gentler place. :) Same Answer, though. :rolleyes:

[Mike K Wenzloff]

You guys are much kinder to the OP than they are over at Wood Central. My buddy, Ray Binnicker, got dragged over the coals for asking the same quesiton. This is truly a kinder, gentler place. :) Same Answer, though. :rolleyes:
Excuse me? Kindler and gentler? Nah. And that thread? All 62 replies? Good natured fun, most of which is indistinguishable from the responses here.

And what did Ray sum up the thread by writing?


Thanks guys !!!!! You did not disappoint me !!! You are the greatest !!!!! I only wish we were ALL sitting in my shop right now coming up with all these answers.

Now, what can I come up with to stir the pot???
Ray

Geez Louise.

Take care, Mike

[Stephen Shepherd]

using the nib to start a kerf? It is very handy, right there on the end of the saw, pulled or pushed with the thumb as a guide, makes a nice nick in the edge of the board to start the saw kerf.

Give it a try.

Stephen

[Jack Camillo]

I bet Chris Schwarz has read all those dusty tomes at least once. Someone should shoot him an email.

[Gary Herrmann]

Hmm. I wonder if some enterprising soul will start selling nibs so we can nibify (nibrilate?) our nibless saws.

[John Schreiber]

I'm starting to feel "nib envy".

[Don C Peterson]

using the nib to start a kerf? It is very handy, right there on the end of the saw, pulled or pushed with the thumb as a guide, makes a nice nick in the edge of the board to start the saw kerf.

Give it a try.

Stephen

Stephen,

Even if that is the reason for the nib, I don't think I'll be trying it any time soon. The saws that I own that have a nib are all old and it would be VERY dissapointing to me if I broke the nib off doing something that is already pretty easy to do with the teeth of the saw...

I'm not saying you are wrong here because I don't know, but to me that explanation never made much sense. In order to start a kerf with the nib one must turn the saw over, and hold it in a way that the handles weren't designed to be used, then turn the saw back over and do the actual sawing. It just seems much simpler and easier to start the cut by using very light pressure. No turning and fumbling, no problem. This just kind of strikes me as a solution to a non-existent problem.

[Hank Knight]

Excuse me? Kindler and gentler? Nah. And that thread? All 62 replies? Good natured fun, most of which is indistinguishable from the responses here.

And what did Ray sum up the thread by writing?


Thanks guys !!!!! You did not disappoint me !!! You are the greatest !!!!! I only wish we were ALL sitting in my shop right now coming up with all these answers.

Now, what can I come up with to stir the pot???
Ray

Geez Louise.

Take care, Mike

Mike,

All of this is good natured fun, both here and on Wood Central, and I took it as such. So did Ray. I do think the ribbing on WC was a little more "vigorous" than here, but all in fun none the less. My post to which you replied was a little tongue in cheek and not intended to be a criticism of WC at all.

Hank

[lowell holmes]

Just for fun, let's revisit this thread. :rolleyes:

[James Pallas]

There is a woodworker on YT, I believe he goes by Mr. Chickadee, that appears to be a very competent hand woodworker. Works as if he has been well trained in old school ways. I think he is the only person I have ever seen that uses the nib to start cuts. As I remember he has some very well kept and well used saws and tools. As I remember he does it very quickly like its a long time practice. Not saying that that is the nibs function but it works for him. He learned it somewhere.
Jim

[Todd Zucker]

What a great series of videos.

[Andreas Wileur]

I know it's been a while (again), but I also want to chime in. Today, when looking at trammel points, I came across an article by Chris Schwarz, https://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/quick-dirty-effective-trammel-points/
The commenter Redbat suggested that nibs might be useful for making circles. Hook the nib on a nail and a put pen between two teeth. But then again, none of my saws have nibs either.

[Pete Taran]

In Disston's own promotional materials, they state that the nib was merely decorative in nature.

If you look at a nib closely, it is not sharpened. Also realize that there were at least 50 years where Disston sold saws with nibs and without. If the nib was anything other than decorative, you would have seen it on the D8, Acme 120, etc.

[Stew Denton]

Pete, I also recall reading something from Disston material from something like 1910 or so that also stated nib was purely decorative. It is hard for me to imagine that questions about the nib would not have been passed on from master to apprentice, and that information passed on and on for generations. If most of us have wondered about the nib, it is hard to think that an apprentice saw smith would not have also wanted to know about the purpose of the nib. Thus, I believe that the information from the Disston materials that you allude to, and that I also have seen, is very likely correct.

I went out and looked at my oldest saw, based on the medallion and etch I believe it to be about 1870 vintage, and it is a panel saw. It has a nib, and as you point out, the nib is not sharpened. Further, the nib is quite small, maybe only a little over 1/16th inch in diameter, and would not seem suitable for starting a cut, as such duty would wear out the nib rather quickly I would think. Further, if I were to design a "nib" for starting a saw cut, it would not look like a traditional nib. It would be two normally shaped crosscut teeth, both fairly small like 12 point teeth, one tooth set each way. The teeth would be filed to cut on the pull stroke.

At any rate, do you know when Disston started putting nibs on his saws, and when the Disston company quit putting nibs on their saws?

Thanks and regards,

Stew

[Erich Weidner]

For a lot of (to me) fun reading: http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/

Stew, I'm pretty sure you can see when the nib dropped from the above. Based on memory... somewhere between the 1920's and 1940's. It's been a while since I read that site, but I seem to recall there was a big shakeup of the product line in the late 20's.

[Scott Winners]

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?293426-new-to-me-use-for-nibs-on-vintage-saw-plates-today

ten characters

[steven c newman]

Seems to be around 1928, when the "Number" models all changed to "D" models....an old No. 7 became a "NEW!" D-7.....

[Stew Denton]

Hi All,

Well, like Eric, it has been a while since I spent a lot of time on the Disston Institute site, so I decided to spend some time there, looking at the pictures of the various models by date to look for the disappearance of the nib. Didn't know how much success I would have because not all of the models had a nib per the comment of Pete above, and the photos of saws with dates is somewhat limited.

I had also guessed that the nib probably disappeared in the 1928 changes as Steven stated above, when IMHO, Disston cheapened up the cost of producing their saws by cutting the "nice" touches on their saws and trimming their number of models. Sure enough, you don't see any nibs in the catalog reprints in the 1928 catalogs but the saws with nibs do show them in the earlier catalogs.

The best information was in the section on the Disston 7/D-7. In that part of the site the author mentions that nibs first showed up in the Victorian era, and were put there due to the pride of workmanship of the craftsman and to help enhance sales. He also states that if used constantly to start saw cuts the nibs often snaps off. This does not surprise me since, as I mentioned above, the nib on my 1870 or so Disston panel saw is very small. A few good whacks of the nib on hard rock maple or something similar could snap such a small nib off. He also mentions later in the write up on the 7s/D-7s that the nib did disappear from the Disston saws in 1928.

Stew