different steels

[TYLER WOOD]

I got an email from Doug Thompson. I had seen a post about his bowl gouges being cheaper than most here on smc.

His tools are made from cpm 10v powder steel with 9.75% vanadium cryogenically frozen between the first and second tempering.

So the question is what is the difference between this steel and the HSS Sorby, brown et al are made from? I thought HSS was supposed to the best tool steel. Is this steel any better than HSS??? I love the idea of ordering from a small supplier as I feel sometimes the quality control will be worth it.

If someone has ordered from him before please let me know what you think of your tools. THANKS!!!!

[Patrick Taylor]

His tools are made from cpm 10v powder steel with 9.75% vanadium cryogenically frozen between the first and second tempering.


I think the PM refers to powder metallurgy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_metallurgy), which is a totally different method of manufacturing steel. Hopefully someone that understands PM versus HSS will chime in.

[Kim Ford]

Great Question.....what I have learned;

When an alloy is molten and begins to cool the different ingredients want to separate and so on the molecular level even the best steel has hard and soft spots. The PM, which I was told stands for Particle Metal, is made to avoid that problem. They take molten alloy and pour it out in such a way that it instantly cools. This forms small particles (almost powder) of metal in which the alloy ingredients are more consistant.

They then take the metal particles and under tremendous pressure fuse them back together to form the tool. The net result is a very consistent alloy at the molecular level.

I have one of Doug's bowl gouges, as well as a Crown PM and a MasterCut PM from One Way. They are all very good and Yes you can tell the difference between HSS and PM. I enjoy them because they seem to come to a nicer edge and hold it longer. They are expensive, but if you are a serious turner I would suggest you give them a try.

;) My 2 cents.

Kim

[David Epperson]

http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/ds10Vv7b.pdf?CFID=1320449&CFTOKEN=24372456
http://www.cknife.com/CPM_V10.htm
http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/INFI_10V.html

I guess it depends on how much you like resharpening.

[Gordon Seto]

The A-11 steel has been used in turning tools for quite some time. Jerry Glaser put them in the map. They are so expensive beyond the means of most turners. I bought a 3/8" Glaser bowl gouge on close out around $100 when Jerry retired. Normal price on his 3/4" gouge was around $250. At that price, not too many people could afford them. Most of us settle for the best we can afford - Sorby or Crown M2 HSS. The A-11 steel is supposed to be several times more wear resistance than M2. But if the price is several times above M2; that would be a wash.

I wish I had missed the close out sale on the Glaser tools. I could have used the same money to buy more A-11 Thompson gouges.

Gordon

Edit: The price on Glaser gouges are handled.

[Kevin McPeek]

Does Doug have a website or anything? A quick google didn't turn anything up except for a welding shop that could be it his. I'd like to see what he has.

[Reed Gray]

I have a number of gouges from an Ellsworth HSS to the Glaser gouges. For me, the biggest difference is that the pm gouges hold a working edge longer, as in you can hog off more stuff before it needs to be sharpened than you can with the HSS. It doesn't seem to keep the finish cut (fresh off the grinder) edge any longer. I used one of the Packard 'cuts 3 times longer' gouges exclusively for a couple of months, then on a whim, went back to the Ellsworth gouge. I liked the finish edge on the Ellsworth better. I figure that this is similar to carbon steel taking a finer edge than HSS, but the edge doesn't last as long. I am not a metalurgist, this is just from observation.
robo hippy

[Jim Becker]

HHS is a category...there are many different formulations. ;)

I have three Ellsworth gouges. Two that are the "regular" HHS and one with the powdered metal formula. I do see a little better edge holding on the PM version as Reed mentions, but for the "fine" cuts, I still prefer the original Ellsworth gouge. It seems to sharpen "keener" for some reason. (same setup; same wheels; etc.)

[Gordon Seto]

I am not metallurgist, but I believe Ellsworth PM are not made from A-11 steel and they didn't go through cryogenic heat treating and triple tempering processes. So we may be comparing two different grade of steels. I think Glaser also made tools with V-15 steel, that has higher percentage of vanadium, that is supposed to be more wear resistance than A-11.

In June 2007 issue of Woodturning Magazine from UK, there is an article by Colin Simpson reporting the test on cryogenically treated M2 HSS tools. The author claimed, "I found I had to re-sharpen my standard M2 steel gouge at least twice as often as the Cryo tool."

I am interested in seeing someone doing a Consumer Report Laboratory type scientific comparison tests.

Gordon

[Randy Privett]

Doug makes an excellent tool, got a good look at them at the Indy Fest last fall. As far as a web site, I know he has been working on something, but I don't think it's up yet. You have to get with him through email.

Randy

[Dennis Peacock]

I don't have any of these but I've sure looked them over once or twice. Well, ok, maybe 5 or 6 times. :o

The Glaser 10V (A11 steel) is advertised at lasting 4 - 5 times longer on holding a cutting edge as M2 HSS.
3/8" - $99.95, 1/2" - $119.95, 5/8" - $145.95

The Glaser 15V is advertised at lasting 40% longer on holding a cutting edge as the 10V.
Only one size that I've found - 1/2" $159.95

The new Kryo gouges are claimed to hold an edge up to 6 times longer than standard M2 HSS. Kryo Superflute Gouges:
1/4" - $49.95, 3/8" - $62.95, 1/2" - $94.95, and 5/8" - $137.95

All prices I listed are what I found in the Packard Woodworks Catalog.

[Doug Thompson]

When this idea first started the goal was to make a tool I wanted to use everyday for my own personal use, it wasn't to sell. If you make something for yourself you do the best you can and try to improve on what you did.

What I'm most proud of is increasing the rockwell of the steel and placing the cryogenic treatment after the first temper, it doesn't sound like much but made a huge difference how the steel performed over the first batch of tools made that were tripled tempered with the cryogenics at the end of the process. To be honest I don't know why.

The other thing I discovered was you don't need a huge deep flute on a bowl gouge... no wonder flutes clog. Watch the flute next time you turn and notice only the front half of the cutting edge is used. IMO a 1/2 diameter tool should be able to cut a 1/2 deep... 5/8dia 5/8 deep etc. By decreasing the flute depth this cut can still be made plus there is more steel under the flute so it's stronger. This did take a while to fiqure out but the flutes don't clog.

This was just a hobby that hit the internet, I don't make a living from this so I don't have to charge a arm and leg. I don't have to hype the tools to sell them... the steel and the heat treating is the selling point. People will find out about them through word of mouth. The best part is after you grind and used them... if you don't like it I'll buy it back. This only happen one time because the tool wasn't ground correctly... I have no problem with that.

Are they better than HSS... yes.

Send a email to me for more information

[Gordon Seto]

Dennis,

The price in current catalog may not be the same thing as the original Jerry Glaser era gouges. I think the new Glaser gouges has eliminated the cryogenic treatment.

Gordon

[Bill Jack]

I ordered three of Dougs tools about a month ago. He very kindly shipped to the UK where Im based.
Due to work, shop time has been somewhat curtailed of late:( but I managed to turn handles for the tools a couple of days ago and gave one of them a good workout - 1/2" detail/spindle gouge - and it was a joy to use.:)
Without a doubt its the best spindle gouge Ive used and it does hold its edge for a long time between sharpening. Im sure the other two, 3/8" spindle and 1/2" Bowl gouge will be equally good to work with.
I give Doug full marks for his tools and recommend them to all.
I will definatley get more when he expands his range.
Thank you Doug - Bill in UK.

[Kurt Whitley]

The Glaser 10V (A11 steel) is advertised at lasting 4 - 5 times longer
The Glaser 15V is advertised at lasting 40% longer on holding a cutting edge as the 10V.
The new Kryo gouges are claimed to hold an edge up to 6 times longer

I sure would like to know how this information is established (also for Pro-PM, 2030, 2060 steel, etc.)

I've always felt as difficult as it would be to factually establish a statement like this, the manufacturers probably are pretty liberal at stretching their claims.
I'd think Glaser would have some pretty good research backing his claim, but now that he is not affiliated with Glaser tools, that is a crap-shoot as well. It wouldn't be the first time a company bought a top quality name and started selling a lesser product.

Cheers,
Kurt

[David Epperson]

I sure would like to know how this information is established (also for Pro-PM, 2030, 2060 steel, etc.)

Cheers,
Kurt
The tests that I've seen detailed usually involve the number of holes a drill of a particular material can drill cleanly before becoming too dull to be efficient. Which is a fairly objective test.

[Barry Elder]

I purchased one of Doug's 5/8 bowl gouges and am very satisfied with it. I use it to hog out wood when roughing bowl blanks and the edge lasts quite a bit longer than my Packard 2030 1/2 bowl gouge. The 2030 works better for me doing finer cuts.

[Philip Duffy]

After all is said and done, there is a major factor that has to be emphasized; sharpening. How often, on what wheels, at what angle, to conform to what profile, and a half dozen other factors. I have a bucket full of tools, some old, some new, some fancy some very crude. All cut like a razor - -on the right wood at the right time when properly sharpened. Let's face is folks, buy what suits you budget and live with it! Sharpening often gives me a chance to think for a moment about what it is that I am trying to accomplish, and that few moments is worth more than the price of the steel in my hand. Keep your edges sharp! Philip

[Doug Thompson]

I sure would like to know how this information is established (also for Pro-PM, 2030, 2060 steel, etc.)

I've always felt as difficult as it would be to factually establish a statement like this, the manufacturers probably are pretty liberal at stretching their claims.
I'd think Glaser would have some pretty good research backing his claim, but now that he is not affiliated with Glaser tools, that is a crap-shoot as well. It wouldn't be the first time a company bought a top quality name and started selling a lesser product.

Cheers,
Kurt

You are right It's impossible to say how much longer one steel will last over another type steel, there are way to many factors involved. The true judge will be in the shop not in some advertisement. If a company wants to cut costs just to make a few more bucks let them but we as a consumer are better informed to see past that.

My gripe from day one has been price... one phone call a while back pissed me off to a point I decided to do something about it. Look at the prices in catalogs, some manufactures will price a detail gouge way more that a bowl gouge... hummm the detail gouge is selling so we'll raise the price. Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking but what's fair is fair.

Thanks Bill and Berry I hope you enjoy them.