Blue Borg Jet and Wilton - Did I miss something?

[Jim Grill]

I was just researching another post about the Delta 17-950L drill press being on sale at the blue borg and noticed Jet and Wilton machinery on their web site.

The prices suck, but this worries me. I don't want the local wood working stores to go under like the old local hardware and lumber yards I used to love so much. I fear that one day we'll all be forced to buy exactly the same products from places like the borgs and wallmart.

When did they start selling that stuff there?

[Tim Malyszko]

I can't speak about Jet, but Wilton Vises have been available at the Lowe's by us ever since they opened their doors, which was about 2 years ago.

[Bill Huber]

I know what you mean before long the only place you will be able to buy anything is is from one of the borgs or Walmart, everything else will have gone out of business.

I noticed that they have some Jet stuff but not a lot at this point.

[James Carmichael]

We don't call 'em "BORG" for nothing...You will be assimilated.

[Jim Becker]

Jet and Delta have sold product through the 'borg for years...generally the lower end of their lines. So-called "home shop" machinery. WWH and other local stores don't necessarily cater to the same audience for stationary equipment. However, local independents don't do as much business in the hand-held electric tool area due to both the 'borg and online sources as they did years ago. They still carry and sell them, but more as an accommodation. This is one of the reasons that many are picking up Festool and other higher-end products...differentiation.

[Jim Grill]

I have noticed that they do sell the lower end stuff like the Delta "Shop Master" line. I was just shocked to see Jet machinery on their web site. I'm not proud of it, but I shop there often (hard to avoid) and am very familiar with their web site and have never seen Jet machinery there.

I suppose you're right, Jim. As long as the locals sell the higher end stuff to differentiate themselves from the common borg, they should be around for a while.

It just worries me. I've seen too many nice towns turn into ghost towns due to "Wallmartization" and I'd hate to lose the few WW stores we have in my area. We already lost the hardware store and lumber yard many years ago due to the borg.

[Jim Becker]

WWH actually received a great boost a number of years ago when Woodcraft closed the Bensalem "company store" when Tom Temple opened up his first Woodcraft franchise in Downingtown. They get good business from New Jersey as well as SE PA. Prior to that, WWH, primarily sold Jet and some PM. After that, they picked up Delta and a few other things as well as getting in more retail lumber. The most recent change was signing on with Festool. They are "the" best local source for the "good stuff" at this point!

[Dick Sylvan]

What, pray tell, is WWH?

[Jim Becker]

What, pray tell, is WWH?

Sorry, Dick...it's the local store that Jim was referring to earlier...Woodworker's Haven in Southhampton, PA. Excellent place!

[John Shuk]

Lowes has flirted with the idea of being a full blown woodworking store for quite a while. They even had a Shopsmith for sale there at one time for a very short while. They never seem to make the leap but they can surprise you with what may show up in the store. I try to shop at the smaller independent retailers but sometimes I've been known to make an Amazon purchase. How is that any different?

[thomas prevost]

I have not done it, but it my understanding(or misunderstanding) from a salespersonal at the local Blue Borg one can now "special order" order any Jet tool (or many other lines) even if they do not carry it.

I do not buy much in the line of tools from the Brogs and Amazon.com as they sell the tool. But, what about service or parts? Non existant!!

[Dave Lehnert]

Lowe’s and Sears have sold Jet equipment over the years. Never seem to do any good. Face it. If you are Joe homeowner and not a full blown woodworker who is on Sawmillcreek.com. Every night you have no idea who Jet is. A person would be more inclined to buy a saw that said Black and Decker

[Dave MacArthur]

Just a note about the 17-950L at Lowes... I bought one on Sunday, and I think I got a gloat-worthy deal. I was in there, and noticed the price tag of $329, and thought wow nice. Then since it was Memorial Day weekend, there was a 10% military discount, even better! Then the head tool guy points out a green sticker that says "INSTANT $40 off at the cash register!". The man says both discounts will apply, so I go to buy it. $260.10 should be the price. However, they just have 1, and they mess it up getting it with the forklift. SOOO... they agree to sell me the floor model for $230. We do the paperwork and I pay. THEN, while figuring out how to move it with a forklift, they find another new in box one elsewhere, so they just deliver that one to my car. End of story, I got one for $230 (31%off).

What just struck me, is why am I in here reading the forums, when I should be outside putting it together? ;)

[Mike Cutler]

It just worries me. I've seen too many nice towns turn into ghost towns due to "Wallmartization" and I'd hate to lose the few WW stores we have in my area. We already lost the hardware store and lumber yard many years ago due to the borg.

Jim.
We had Walmart and a 'borg go in about 3-4 years ago a few miles from the house. Strange thing is that the local hardware store, an old fashioned one, has had a significant increase in business. What are they selling? Service.
I can walk in, and be out in 10 minutes with everything I need. If I forgot to get something, they know to ask. Same for the local electrical supply house. The price is so close, that the time savings tilts the deal for me.

I don't really have a problem with Home Depot, or Lowes selling woodworking machinery. Both stores keep porposing in and out of that market. However, if they are going to sell woodworking machinery. They need to have someone available that knows whats what. Of course, they need to adhere to this principal in most of their departments. It's one of their biggest downfalls outside of the exhorbitant amount of time it takes to actually check out through the register.(Using the cash register as an inventory control mechanism, at the customers expense, really peeves me)

Home Depot targets a market band. if a person falls into this band, it's a very convenient place to do business. I think though that once a persons skill level and awareness increase they begin to shop elsewhere.

[Jim Grill]

Sorry, Dick...it's the local store that Jim was referring to earlier...Woodworker's Haven in Southhampton, PA. Excellent place!

I went to WWH for the first time Saturday morning. Very nice people.

I'd rather put my hands on the tools before I buy them. I don't like the idea of special ordering from the borg or amazon.

[Jim Grill]

...if they are going to sell woodworking machinery. They need to have someone available that knows whats what. Of course, they need to adhere to this principal in most of their departments. It's one of their biggest downfalls ...



You hit the nail on the head with that one, Mike. If you can find someone to help you, their knowledge of WW would probably be laughable. "Joinery? You mean nails, right?"

[Mike Cutler]

You hit the nail on the head with that one, Mike. If you can find someone to help you, their knowledge of WW would probably be laughable. "Joinery? You mean nails, right?"

You know, The fisrt one I went into years ago was great. The sales staff was fairly knowledgable about the product lines,and there were a few retired tradesman working in the store to set you straight. I remember thinking, Wow! this place is going to be a huge success. It's changed over the years though. Sort of like the Sears model for failure, but on a steeper curve.
I don't really shop there to often. I mostly just buy lightbulbs, and garden stuff and occaisional constructio grade material. I do check their tools though. Sometimes they have pretty good closeout deals.
I would like to tell their corporate office that the first week of Febuary is not the end of "Heating season", or "Snow Season" in New England. Leave us the Halite, and stove pellets until at least April.:rolleyes:

[Curt Harms]

I was in Woodworker's Haven a couple weeks ago-John was there alone and no one else in the store. We were talking and they have a Jet saw that looks initially like a contractor's saw but doesn't have the motor hanging out the back but rather the motor is enclosed more like a hybrid but is belt driven. $400.00, I think. John said they were originally built for Lowes. I do remember Lowes carrying some Jet saws then the Jet saws being clearanced. I suspect woodworking durable goods don't go over well at the big box stores because there's no enough sales volume the inventory gets too stagnant . I'd guess that stagnant inventory is anathma to the big-box business model.

Curt

[Jim Grill]

You know, The fisrt one I went into years ago was great. The sales staff was fairly knowledgable about the product lines,and there were a few retired tradesman working in the store to set you straight. I remember thinking, Wow! this place is going to be a huge success. It's changed over the years though. Sort of like the Sears model for failure, but on a steeper curve.


I remember that, too. The first few years were pretty well. I knew a gentleman who worked at the blue borg for about a year while looking for a more permanent job. His biggest complaint was that employees were treated as though they could be easily replaced and it was impossible to provide customer service due to lack of coverage and secondary duties, which were more like primary duties.

Those duties included inventory, restocking returns, paperwork, etc. Not completing the borg prime directive resulted in bad reviews and retaliation from management by scheduling terrible shifts for them. That's why the employees you do encounter always seem to be very busy and behave as though they are distracted. Some hide it better than others, but make no mistake, those poor folks are worked very hard.

I agree about aging inventory. Shelf and floor space are at a premium at the borg. Everything must move quickly to keep profits up. They won't stock anything that has potential to stick around for too long. I think most borg shoppers would rather save money than buy quality and that's probably why the good machinery doesn't move fast enough for them to keep it in stock.

I also agree that there are some deals to be had there on smaller power tools and I just love the discount racks. :D

[Thomas Prondzinski]

Guys I would like to say that I work at the blue borg and love it.Yes I do know joinery. And if you don't want Walmartization don't buy at the borg or Amazon buy from your local woodworking retailer.If a tools is 50.00 less don't buy at the borg,spend 50.00 more at the local retailer.That's the only way to keep him in business.



Tom

[Adam Howard]

Due to stiff competition from the likes of the Borgs, Amazon, and other online retailers, the prices of heavy equipment stay pretty low. For the business owner, there's not much of a profit margin there.

Local woodworking shops such as Rockler, Woodcraft, etc. make more money on other purchases.... planes, bits, jigs, hardware, glue, and abrasives (consummables), hand tools, etc. All the little things that add up to big $$ before you realize you've spent that much.

[Jim Grill]

Hi Thomas,

I know there are some good folks at the borgs who want to help.

Can you please come over to my local borg and teach them about WW? :)

I hope this thread didn't offend you or anyone else in any way. my intent was not to bash the borg, but to get some opinions about the borg and machinery and express a little concern for the local WW shops.

I think everyone had some very good input on the subject.

I do love me some borg when it comes to general home improvement! :D

[Eric Lewis]

As a former orange borg employee I tend to agree with some of your comments but disagree with others. For what it's worth, my experience with working at HD was:

1) Building materials is where you are most likely to find building trade knowledge, because that is where the professionals/contractors spend most their time making high quantity, high volume, and repeat purchases.

2) "Consumer" areas, appliances especially, prefer sales people to professionals in the industry (although they would definitely take with both sales and trade experience - they're just hard to come by). Leading to my next point...

3) The housing boom over the last several years has led to a dramatic shortage in experienced professionals, particularly in places like plumbing and electrical, that need/want to work at a borg. The hourly wage at the HD, even for an experienced tradesperson, isn't going to make you wealthy. I wouldn't be surprised given all the bad news in the housing sector that you don't start to see more professionals going back to the stores if building slows.

4) I touched on it in my first point and several have touched on it their comments, but the borg's fulfill demand for low-cost commodity building products. Sure they'll special order nearly anything you can imagine, but the guts of the business is selling generic items at high volume. Also, having seen what the margin is on heavy equipment, at least at the orange borg, there are occasions when items are selling for less than what they cost the store to bring in. It makes a heck of lot more sense to them to sell millions of $0.20 paint tray liners that cost them less than $0.10 (2x markup - similar on a lot of "perishable" items) than a few thousand machines for a couple $100 with 5% markup potential.

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to put it out there that the borg's aren't responsible for destroying the world and my opinion on why they aren't likely to cater to hard-core woodworkers.

I ceased my part-time job at the borg earlier this spring because of full-time job responsibilities and travel so I don't have any direct ulterior motives. However, I am biased because I really enjoyed my time at the store and continue to shop there regularly.

[Jim Grill]

Hi Eric.

Very informative post. It makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I was just researching another post about the Delta 17-950L drill press being on sale at the blue borg and noticed Jet and Wilton machinery on their web site.

The prices suck, but this worries me. I don't want the local wood working stores to go under like the old local hardware and lumber yards I used to love so much. I fear that one day we'll all be forced to buy exactly the same products from places like the borgs and wallmart.


I won't buy anything from them anyway.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=58848

[Tom Henderson2]

I gotta ask.. what is the "Blue Borg?" Looking down the thread, it would appear to be Lowes.. but maybe it is a generic term for all "big box" home stores?

Thanks in advance

-Tom H.
New to SMC

[Jim Grill]

You are correct! :)

The Borg = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_(Star_Trek) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg_%28Star_Trek%29)
Blue Borg = Lowe's
Orange Borg = Home Depot
Borgs = all inclusive

You will be assimilated!