shed wall construction - siding

[Robert Trotter]

Hi people (especially those with building knowledge),

I am trying to finalize my siding details so I can order the timber and get the slab layed (size dependant on siding).
I am no building pro so excuse my ignorance.

It will be in a typhoon (hurricane / cyclone) area.
Vertical siding - "serenganbatu" hardwood (I think you call it "yellow Balau" )

Tools - hand tools except for impact driver and sliding miter saw.

Anyway What do you think about this detail at the corner?
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The corner piece will be an order made piece so I can order what I want but I am unsure of what might be best. And the bigger it goes then the more expensive. The siding company thinks a 40mm corner piece should be OK. BUt I have a few questions for you.

1. I will be using stainless screws to fix the siding. For the corner piece I have shown two screw, one on each side, to continue the screw line for appearances. But I am thinking that maybe only one will be enough. What do you think?

2. With 40mm corner piece it appears that the screws might be going into the end of the ply sheet or the interface between the ply and the frame. Will this be problem? I could skew the screw I know but if I skew it too much then it will look cr.. . Or could I increase the ply to 12mm?

3. what is a good edge distance for spacing the screws to fix the siding boards?

4. THe siding is T&G. But the corner piece is not. Is this OK to have the siding just butt up against the corner piece? (as far as weather proofing goes)

Show in the picture at "A" and "B" is that I have just butted the groove side of the siding up to the corner piece. And then (in my head) planed off the tongue of the adjoining piece and butted this up. Will there be any problem with rain with the butt joint and with leaving the groove there?

I can ask the company to just supply some boards with no groove or no tongue on one side for the corner boards. I don't think that would be difficult.

OR do I really need to have the T&G in the corner pieces too.? This could be expensive.


Thanks for any advice

Robert

[Russ Filtz]

Do you have a router table? I would just buy solid stock for the end piece and rabbet the edges to fit over the edge of the siding. I don't think butting the edges will serve you well. Also don't end the siding with a "tongue" piece abutting the corner. Use a TS and rip off the tongue so you get a good fit with the rabbet on the corner piece.

Oops. forgot you only have hand tools! Need to find a friend with a router and TS!

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Russ,

Thanks for the reply.
No router table.

So it would seem that just butting the siding up to corner piece is not so good?????

So maybe I can ask the siding supplier to cut a toungue and groove on the corner pieces or just a rabbet.

I can easily plane the tongue off with a hand plane. But the groove would be tricky.

I could try doing this by hand but the only tools I have at the moment for this would be a LN 140. and a LV med shoulder plane. Or a LV edge plane. Not the best for this operation.?? There would be only four corners but both edges. I think I'll ask about getting the supplier to do something and see what they say. The corners will be custom peices anyway.

What do you think about the screw location for the fixing the corner piece? SHould the corner piece be larger?

Robert

[Rob Russell]

First, I'd beef up the corner framing. Second, 9 mm sheathing (about .36" for us English standard folks) seems a bit thin - it's the sheathing that keeps the building from racking and twisting. I'd go with 12mm sheathing minimum.

[Jim Becker]

Robert, you can butt the siding to the corner pieces as long as you properly caulk them in the process so that the joint is completely sealed.

I agree with Rob...you need to beef things up a little given that you not only have normal stresses, but also those seismic events from time to time in your neck of the woods. You need good shear strength for that as well as wind resistance.

[Clayton Masterson]

First, I'd beef up the corner framing. Second, 9 mm sheathing (about .36" for us English standard folks) seems a bit thin - it's the sheathing that keeps the building from racking and twisting. I'd go with 12mm sheathing minimum.


I have to agree. Why don't you stick with a 1/2 OSB or structural rated ply behind the siding? In such a nasty area have you considered rack bracing and fire-blocking(assuning that your walls are over 8")? Have you considered a James Hardie product? It is good stuff against the weather...any weather.

As far as a butt joint in the exterior corners.. stay away from it. Jim is right..."if properly caulked". But remember that a caulk bead is good untill it is broken. After that it can work against you.

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks all.

I will go back to 12mm OSB for the wall sheathing, which is what I had originally planned to use. But I could only get it in 1800mm length sheets. But I could 9mm sheets of ply up to 2700mm. So I thought single sheets up the wall would be better.
OK. I'll have to put a joint somewhere with the 12mm sheets. Near top or near bottom or doesn't matter?

I was going to put close nailing for the sheathing to make it into a bracing wall. I will also have noggings(blocking) between the studs. To screw the siding into. I was planing to use 2x4 for these. They could be smaller but 2x4 is cheaper and will add strength and give some shelves/support inside. Sound OK?

I will contact the siding supplier to ask about rabbets or T&G on the corner pieces as it appears butting it up is not so good.

Thanks for the help.

About the screw location for the corner piece? Into the end of the ply or OSB OK? Have to screw it in a lot?

Robet

[Clayton Masterson]

How will your structure be built? Slab, short wall, crawl space, full basement, post-and-beam, or a surface app.? Like Rob suggested, your corners, aka your wall ties need to be adressed, uh, differently.
I again would suggest that you look into a Hardie product instead of a natural wood product. You can still get the look of vertical siding, or any siding for that matter, but it will include a 20 to 30 year warranty, no joke. It may be worth the price. Check out their website. http://jameshardie.com/ . If you need to know more feel free to PM me.

I personally would not trust screws in the end of OSB or structural. I would purchase/produce larger corners that would allow me to screw straight into the framing.

Clayton

P.S. butt joints go to the top where they are more protected by the overhang on the structure.

Are you going to raise your walls with sheathing applied?

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Clayton,

I am in Japan nad they don't have (I can't get it) here. They have other manufactured siding alternatives available that are cheaper actually. But it is asthetics things. It needs to fit in with environment around the house and the garden. Hence going for the wood siding.

I am putting it on a slab on ground. With hold dowm bolts tieing the 2x4 stub wall frame (constructed as bracing walls - ply/OSB sheet) to the slab. Use Simpson brackets and connectors to take the load path from roof to footing.

I will contact the company about getting a larger corner piece made with T&G or rabbets top tie it into the siding. I Hope they can do it. Otherwise I will have to think of something else. But I am sure they can do it. It will just cost extra. So if I can i will make it large enough to screw into the studs of the frame. about and extra 10 or 15mm shoudl be alright????

It is a small shed actually. Not very large.

Robert

[dan moran]

frame your corners like this:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c290/humongojugomango/walllead.jpg


where the vertical(in the diagram-its a top view) wall goes all the way to the end nail two studs together (every 12" or so) in an L shape. this gives you a solid and stiff surface to nail the other wall to (after plumbing of course)

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Hi Robert...interesting project.

With one small modification the corner detail will be waterproof. Take your verticle siding all the way to the corner and install the corner trim on top of the siding. I know it's more expensive that way, but I would bet that it will be 100% more waterproof.

About the sheathing.....since you are in a Typhoon/Cyclone area, I can't disagree more with the use of OSB of ANY type. It's ability to fend off moisture is much less than normal exterior plywood and it's strength when compromised is non-existant [unless you are trying to remove it with a hammer and prybar after it's rotted...:D:D:D Do yourself a favor, you are covering the outside with hardwood and with screws....do it once only, it's much less expensive that way.

1. You'll need two screws like you have in the pic to keep the corner pieces
intact over the years. Anything left unfastened is a request for early replacement.

2. Longer screws, with the conditions you could face there, they should be 2 1/4" or more at least

3. 1" from the edge when screwing down hardwoods. This is how I space my screws in Ipe decking. This spacing allows for movement in the framing, yet keeps everything together very nicely.

4. I am not a fan of butt joints ouside....overlap the corner piece. This will cure most any moisture leaks you would have incurred with the other setup.

[James Kuhn]

1. Dan's stud plan is A+
2. Always use furring strips.
3. Don't argue about #2.
4 No...really...don't.

[Robert Trotter]

Thanks guys for the input.

Dan, I will have to wait till I get to my other computer as your picture doesn't show up on this one. But I think I understand what you are saying. The nailing info was good. Saves me asking:)

Kelly, Thanks for the edge distance tip for the screws . That will basically make all screws evenly spaced across the screw line. And the screw length recomendation is much appreciated. Saves me asking:)
I was thinking of Ipe at one stage. But sarrenganbatu is cheaper and darkens a bit with age rather than just go silver grey like ipe. Ulin would be nice but it is expensive.

And thanks for the info on the OSB. I will ask about getting the longer 8' sheets of 12mm ply. Have to wait and see on that one. In Japan there are lots of things for the "trade" but no one wants to sell to the normal Joe Blo. They all want the complete job. Not just materials sales.

As far as your corner detail suggestion with putting the corner strip over the siding, I see what you are saying and can see that it would solve a lot of problems. But... I was trying to keep everything in line and flow around the corner to keep a somewhat modern styling to it. Away from the country look. Thus my original detail. But I will think about it.

James -

2. Always use furring strips.
3. Don't argue about #2.
4 No...really...don't.

#3 and #4 refer to your #2 about the furing strips?:confused:

So you recomend horizontal furing strips? What size? What material?

I orignially (way back in time) thought of using furing strips.
Some problems I was concerned about were:-

that if any water got in, then there is nowhere for that water to go anyway. (I plead ignorance here:o )
If I used furing, then for the vertical siding at the corner, it seemed that the edge would be unsupported. That is, there is nothing to attach the screws to. just the air gap. And The corner is the highest loaded area under wind loads. (Once again I plead ignorance here:o )
My "shed" is rather small. You have to go with what you have.:) You guys may think of it as a garden shed size. :( see my "walk in toolbox" thread. (has changed a bit in layout but still similar.) In use it will be a semi-open workshop with my bench and tools inside. But as I have some expensive hand tools (neandre) and things, so I need to have my small shed weather proof. To stop rust etc. And so I don't have to rebuild it in 5 or 10 years time. Especially during the rainy season and typhoon season) All this means that the depth of the shed is not great. About 1290mm (exterior dimension) (plus or minus one siding board, and depending on the corner detail for the siding) Adding furring would reduce the interior space. But I suppose it depends on the thickness. 1" furing would reduce interior space by 2". This could be significant. It could be the differnce in a comfortable planing stance at the corner of the bench and a somewhat upright stance due to the 'ol b#m or hip hitting the wall just near the door frame.
If you could show me how to do the corners of the siding with furing attached and give me an idea of the size of furing needed and the material then I can think about it.Thanks all for your help.

I know the general construction details for building my shed but its all these "little" details that have me stumped at times. :eek: Maybe just worrying too much. But I want to look after my tool investment. They will be my kids' sometime.

Robert

[Paul Simmel]

Robert,

>>> It will be in a typhoon (hurricane / cyclone) area.

I would never consider screwing the siding to any thickness ply or osb. This is a no-no for any siding installation, anywhere. You must anchor into the studs if running horizontally, or use 1x2” furring when running vertically.

IMO, I do not like, nor have I seen, the T&G running vertically anyway. On a forty-five, maybe.

I know, this is only a shed. But IMO you likely <will> get water blown in and past the T&G with high winds, especially if the siding shrinks a bit. The only solution (which would change your asthetics) is some sort of batten, (like board & batten) and that would also be iffy in a high-wind area but at least better in that the T&G isn’t completely exposed.

Even cheap sheet siding is half-lapped, and nailed down <hard> on the joints into the studs. T&G is just going to “sit there”, expanding and contracting.

I would over-lap the corner boards.

-=-=-=-

How did you come up with this design? If there are other structures in your area you are trying to “match”, thus the vertical installation, what have these others done? How is it installed? What materials have they used?

Finally, does it have to be vertical? If you can run it horizontally, all your problems are solved. The siding would actually add strength to your structure, and you could toe-nail into studs and not see any fasteners at all. The front half of your T&G would act as a half-lap, and you’d be good to go insofar as keeping it dry behind (underneath).

Hope this helps you some.

Edit: >>> If I used furing, then for the vertical siding at the corner, it seemed that the edge would be unsupported. That is, there is nothing to attach the screws to. just the air gap. And The corner is the highest loaded area under wind loads.

The furring would run horisontally about every 12" from the bottom up. The furring would be nailed to the corners. Your corner boards would (like the siding) be attached to the furring, and your sheathing (nailed to the framework every 6 -8" along each stud and corner) is what gives your building its shear strength. The siding and corner boards would be strictly for weather protection in this application.

Paul

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Paul.

I decided on the vertical because my wife and I like it as did a landscape architect.

Sorry, the picture was mainly to show the corner problem with the corner piece. I won't be fixing the siding to the ply or OSB really. More through it, into blocking (2x4 noggins - OZ speak) between the studs. So esentially these noggings will act like the firing (furing? spelling????) you said. This will just lie within the wall plane rather than across the studs. Then the ply sheeting goes over the whole wall to tie it all together for bracing and strength. So all siding will going into 2x4. (if I can get the corner detail worked out.)

Yellow balau is a pretty stable wood also and the timber I will get is all top grade clear. It is supposed to be good for exterior usage and has a life expectance of up to 30 years untreated.

They use the T&G a lot in a vertical situation here in Japan. They do recomend some firing (furing?) , but I had been told that it would be OK without it. As I said earlier if there is horizontal furing (battens) then the water can't flow down the wall anyway. :confused: Unless I put local "pads" at the fixing locations. Doable I suppose as the shed is not that big. What thickness and material?:confused:

Robert

[James Kuhn]

Robert,

The furring strips allow any moisture in the wall to evaporate through the air cavity by turing a simple wall into a rainscreen. You can use any 1x3 stock (knotty cedar is cheap and last longer) and either miter or overlap the corners so you have somehting to nail against. Because you are running the furring horizontally you will need to groove across the boards so that the air can move up the cavity and water doesn't pool anywhere. Here are some articles on the subject:

http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/pdf/RainScreen.pdf

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/ctus/34_e.html

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/siding-with-rain-screen-walls.aspx?ac=ts&ra=fp

[Clayton Masterson]

Do you have any access to Tyvek, Dow wrap, or any other waterproof membrane? This is a roll good that lays behind your siding to waterproof your sheathing.

[Robert Trotter]

Hi Clayton,

I can get building paper. Most used around here is a manmade meterial, not bitumen impreganted paper. They put it over the sheeting on houses here. It is supposed to be waterproof and some have the water proofness as well as the ability to breath. (according to my searches)

I was going to use some of this building wrap/paper on all the wall and the doors (which I have to make). I was planning on putting a double layer at the corners as that is what I read somewhere on one of the American building sites (somewhere? Can't remember now - searched too much) was recomended.


For a small shed it probably seems like I am overdoing it. If it were just a garden shed for the mower and stuff then I would probably just wack it up and not worry too much.

However, as I said earlier, it will have expensive tools in it and wood etc and I want to keep these in good order. Also I don't want the whole thing or parts of it flying off in the next typhoon and hitting the neighbours cars or house etc.

Any help would be welcome

Robert

[Clayton Masterson]

Protction of your tools is first and foremost. They cost too much to treat as expendable.

Sounds like the stuff. It will do a fine job for your shed(which I saw an example of in your previous thread), I prefer Tyvek as opposed to the DOW wrap. If you are unfamiliar with it, it is the same material as the USPS "bags" and Haz-Mat suits. You simply overlap your corners by 12-18 inches and staple it to your sheathing.

However. Do not waterproof both the outside AND inside of your shed. Do not use building paper or tyvek, and a poly film on the inside. This will trap moisture on the inside of the walls and rot them from the inside out.

Clayton

[Paul Simmel]

Hi Robert,

Well, with the blocking then you will sound enough. The furring (per Word Web Pro: ”2. Strip used to give a level surface for attaching wallboard”) <smile>

I think your corner question is answered. Place studs where they will support for your over-lapped corner boards so there is no air where you’d want to screw.

Being that this is a shed, and if you use building paper (Tyvec is better but building paper will suffice), you will be fine, because as you said the balau (not familiar with it) is stable.

I’m in the process of building a home, and am just about ready to start the siding. So my thought process is focussed on complete and total tightness at the moment.

I’m sure you can understand my considerations about virtical T&G. When you said…

>>> It will be in a typhoon (hurricane / cyclone) area.

… I was visualizing mountains of water being fourcefully blown against your structure.

Under those conditions, I don’t’ think there’d be too many here who’d do their <homes> virtically… but a shed with screwed-down siding with relatively stable material… well, what the heck?! If it isn’t blown clear across to Korea, you will be fine. <smile>

My very best.

[Robert Trotter]

Hi, I have thought and redone some sketches and checked out some of the available materials for construction.
I have taken into account some of your comments guys also.


I will put some furring blocks behind the siding. These will be 40mmx16mm. Since they are horizontal and I want some air flow and need to let any water out I am thinking of using blocks as shown rather than continuous pieces. It is a bit of extra work cutting all those blocks but it is only a small shed and I'll get to test out the new sliding mitre saw (makita cyclone model with laser line)
these furring blocks will be nailed or screwed through the ply into the wall blocking (noggings) and the the siding screwed over these into the frame blocking.
The last siding board outside screw will be mainly holding through the cantilevered furring piece and then into the edge of the ply. Should this be OK. See the pics.

I am thinking of putting a 40mmx40mm (10mmthick) corner piece overlapping the siding which will go all the way to the corner. the supplier seemed to think this would be OK.
The corner pieces will have to be screwed into the edges of the siding. See the pictures

The frame could be either an "L" shape as suggested but I would have to cut around the stud for the blocking (nogging)
Or it could be 2 or three studs together. I could use 2 and then just add blocks if I want to fit interior sheeting.Have a look at some pics to help see.

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65984

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65987

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So what do you think? Any advice.
I am sure that there are a few chippies out there wondering what I am doing :o but hey, you don't know until ya try it.

Robert

[Clayton Masterson]

I could only see one of your pics. But I've been up since 3:30 so I might just be stupid this morning.

Your furring strip size seems ok. If you run a continuous strip you could always kerf the back side to allow moisture to "drop" through. Might save you some time.

Your corners look fine. Nice and beefy. Your picture shows that yiou are overlapping your exterior sheathing, good.

You said that you see some fairly heavy storms sometimes, you might want to consider installing lag bolts in your corners to help tie them together. This is slowly becoming standard in my area for garage applications. This is where wind can do some funny stuff. We have had whole garages lifted off of the foundation before.

IMHO, a 40mmx40mm corner seems a little narrow for my taste. I think that is about 1 1/2" wide. You won't have much width on the corner piece left to attach into your framing.

Oh, one more thing...nothing holds like a hand-drive.

[Robert Trotter]

another go at pictures

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66000

66001

66002

As you MAY be able to see in the last picture, the corner pieces would be supported mainly by screwing into the siding itself. If I use long screws then they will go through the siding and into the edge of the ply sheet. The sheet "end grain" is not so greta but will give a little but screwing into the face of the siding itself should be OK. As it will have pull out resistance from one screw and shear resistance of the other perpendicular screw of the other side.

Robert

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Looks good Robert. I think you'll have little trouble with this system.

[Jim Becker]

Looks good...for the furring, you could speed things up relative to accommodating the air flow by simply routing a notch in the back side every few inches and then fastening it up as a unit. Cutting all those small pieces adds a lot of work. A router and a speed-square will get the job done quickly. It also means you can be less concerned with where the fasteners for your outer siding end up...no "cracks" for them to fall into!