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View Full Version : Arrgh! Sprinkler System Requirement



Jim Becker
05-24-2007, 10:38 PM
I'm curious about how many folks live in an area where residential sprinkler (fire) systems are required for new construction as well as major additions over a certain square footage...

We recently found out that there is an ordinance in our township for the same...and it's blowing our addition budget even further out of whack than the septic updates ($12K) by another $7K. And at first, they wanted the existing structure done, too, but we basically told them it wasn't going to happen...we're not touching the existing house for any new work nor interested in having exposed pipes in the circa 1750 stone structure. (The walls are 18" thick limestone in mortar)

Arrgh! :(

Oh, and it's further delayed "breaking ground" since they won't issue a permit until they have plans ($600) for the fire system. They also want a whole bunch of information added physically to the plans by the architect...cut sheets from the manufacturer are not sufficient. Ching...ching...$150 an hour for that work. Funny they never mentioned this stuff when they were asked for everything needed PRIOR to application. Sheesh!

Jason Roehl
05-24-2007, 11:02 PM
"We're here to HELP you..." ...out of your money...

I was just wondering how your addition was coming along, Jim. I guess things could be better, huh? :rolleyes:

Mike Cutler
05-25-2007, 8:09 AM
Well, they are building a house right next door to me, and there is no sprinkler requirement.
As someone that works on various types of suppression and actuation systems for automatic discharge. I find this requirement a little wierd. These systems, piping, heads, detectors, and actuation need to be tested and inspected periodically per the vendor to maintain the warranties for the life of the system. Not to mention that charged systems have an antifeeze/anti corrosive in the piping. If it's a non charged system, does the township maintain the suppression supply.
There are also NFPA requirements. I also have to be able to document operability on a periodic basis to keep the insurance in effect.
I'd be really stunned if the township had the correct person(qualified) to inspect a coded fire system. Unfortunately those that do claim to have such a person usually have assigned the job to the Fire Marshall, and have given them the NFPA book to interperet on their own. I've had meny arguments over the years with fire inspectors attempting to interperet federal laws, with no legal education
This is a huge burden to place on a residential homeowner. I don't get it. I'd be inclined to submit the building addition in seperate permits over time to preclude one large addition that forces the fire system requirement.

Steve Schoene
05-25-2007, 9:27 AM
You may, or may not, be pleased to know that a proposal add requirements for sprinkler systems to the 1 and 2 family building codes under the International Code Council which produces the IRC code manual in use in many states was defeated at its meeting held over the past several days. At least this requirement won't be foisted on the everyone, though state amendments are always permitted, and local provisions in some juridictions. (Connecticut doesn't allow local modifications, only state wide amendments.)

Not only is it expensive to install, but the provision of larger water supply may cause water rates to go up for the home, even if the sprinkler isn't triggered. I wonder too if it would cause muncipalities to have to increase sizes of water mains and the like to meet the potential call for additional water as, over time, more homes and more homes have sprinklers.

And, the prospects of a false alarm destroying much of my home furnishings would be nearly unbearable, and set me looking for ways to disable the system, itself a risky proposition since it might allow insurance companies to dissallow fire damage claims, even if they would have been less than the water damage claims from the sprinklers.

I hope there wasn't a local tragedy that put this bug in mind of the local
"authorities"?

Jason Roehl
05-25-2007, 9:34 AM
I'm wondering how populated your neck of the woods is, Jim. Maybe this provision is to make up for poor FD coverage?

I think Steve's got it right--sprinkler systems make me nervous. Water damage is far more common and expensive in this country than fire damage.

Joe Pelonio
05-25-2007, 10:21 AM
Sometimes I wonder if some of these towns that require residential sprinklers have a councilman whose brother-in-law is in the business. It makes sense in areas like southern CA where wildfires are common, but in most places it's overkill. So far no such requirements here except on multi-family and commercial.

Cliff Rohrabacher
05-25-2007, 10:24 AM
In Bucks County? A tad uppity lately aren't they?

Jim Becker
05-25-2007, 10:32 AM
Jason, the addition isn't even started yet...one delay after another. But the GC is going to get started on the siding and roofing of the existing structure 'cause his crew is coming off a big job and needs work. Don't need a permit for that...(paraphrased from the local building inspector) "______ township doesn't care about siding and roofing..." Right...they're too busy making everyone bend over on plumbing and septic requirements and pretty plans with lots of writing on them. We are somewhat rural, but do have good fire coverage, albeit volunteer. Their response time is still pretty quick...we've witnessed it. I think this ordinance was something done for other reasons...


Steve, thanks for the heads up on the international code thing. I'll pass that on to the GC as an FYI.

Mike, there is no township supplied water...we are on a well. Therefore, we need a large storage tank for this system which required modification of our structural plans to accommodate it under a stairway...more money. And I (as well as my architect, etc.) agree that the "realistic" benefit is not there. I'm also particularly annoyed that a major builder (stock exchange listed) was able to get around this requirement on the 120 $900+K McMansions going up just the other side of the trees from us. Oh, no can do on the "multiple permits" for this project due to the nature of it. It's an 1850 sq ft, two-story structure and can't be built in stages.

At this point, I'm thinking that this whole project, start to finish, including the new driveway, etc., is going to come in close to $100K more than we paid for the whole property in 1999 with about $50K of that in, umm...unplanned additions to the addition, if you know what I mean. My frustration is less with the money than it is with the combination of "surprises" due to "those in the know/control" withholding information at critical times as well as what I'll term "busy-work" requirements that serve no real purpose, but cost money just the same. We expected there would be a higher cost because we want excellent materials and techniques used so that the end result is commensurate with the expectations of this area (for both us and for future resale), but we aren't doing anything ostentatious or foo-foo. No fancy stuff.

We've even cut back on the original roofing intention (standing seam) to heavy architectural shingles with standing seam for accents to save about $6 a sq ft in compensation. We're going with pre-finished Hardie siding to save on painting labor...not a problem as we didn't have a "must have custom color anyway"...shorter color warranty than the SW coating we originally wanted to us, but we can live with that. I'm building the cabinetry in my own shop and may also do the counter work. There's nothing left to cut at this point.

I just want this started! (And so does the GC)

So we signed the contract with the sprinkler contractor this morning just to move things along. Fighting it further could push us out months more which raises the possibility of increased material costs. Now, we just have to get the township to move sooner, rather than later, on the re-submission...they normally put it back at the bottom of the stack. Which is unacceptable.

Lee Schierer
05-25-2007, 3:08 PM
we need a large storage tank for this system which required modification of our structural plans to accommodate it under a stairway...more money.

Hey JIm, did you consider the cost of making this large storage tank into a sauna or pool? That way at least you will get some benefit from all that water.:D

Jim Becker
05-25-2007, 3:22 PM
Hey JIm, did you consider the cost of making this large storage tank into a sauna or pool? That way at least you will get some benefit from all that water.

Nope...interesting idea, but I don't think it would fly! (And we're tub-less in the addition, too--BIG walk in shower instead! One you can actually bend over in to pick up the soap without cleaning the walls with your, umm...you know...)

Ken Garlock
05-25-2007, 4:10 PM
Jim, since this is an addition it seems that the permit people are exercising their power. I would exercise my power and take their posteriors to court and challenge their ordinance. Find the dirtiest low life lawyer you can, i.e., throw a dart at the phone book.

Since it is obvious that some money traded hands with the 'builder behind the trees', the country might not like to get caught up in court. If is a case of turn belly up and put in the sprinklers, or challenge them making sure all parties understood the 'deal' behind you.

Jim Becker
05-25-2007, 4:22 PM
Ken, if this project were not already delayed by many months I might consider pressing it, but I can't do it at this point. Further delays would likely cost more than the $7K for the system. We've already told them we are NOT going to do it in the existing structure (outside of breaking through from new to old, there is no work at all being done on the interior of the existing home) and the Fire Marshall seems to be able to live with that. Off course, he also thinks that a sprinkler system isn't an economic hardship as the "cost is reasonable". Too bad it's not his money.

Several other local townships and municipalities also recently passed sprinkler ordinances...growing trend.

Oh, and so you're clear...my builder doesn't want the sprinkler system, either. He's not going to make any money on it and it's delayed his crew for at least an extra month.

Mike Cutler
05-25-2007, 6:00 PM
Jim.
Unfortunately Ken has the right idea, but unfortunately you have a timeline constraint. I doubt any "money changed hands" with the Mc Mansion builder though. They probably hired an attorney and filed all of the right paperwork and variances upfront with the initial permit and site applications. I've learned the hardway through the years. Let the lawyers talk to the town for you first, most towns will avoid litigation like poison ivy.

I disagree with the Fire Marshal as to the cost. While an initial install may be "reasonable" by some standards. The long term cost can become exceedingly burdensome to maintain the system for insurance purposes, and maintain code compliance.
I would also love to see the fire load sizing calc's for permanent and transient combustibles in a residence. I highly suspect this is how the requirement is evaded, and I would want some numbers from the town upfront so that they can't challenge the calc, and the system, and further delay you on a whim with no technical basis for justification.
You're between a rock and hard place bro' . Good luck with the project.

Jeff Wright
05-25-2007, 6:05 PM
Funny they never mentioned this stuff when they were asked for everything needed PRIOR to application. Sheesh!

I once was involved in selling an automobile dealership I owned. We found a buyer and it took over two years for the bastar** in the local building department to approve the buy. The new buyers were not nearly as 'disruptive an activity' as our dealership. What peeved us off the most was their inability to give final dependable conclusive answers. I wanted to bring suits bringing the individuals personally liable for any losses due to their inability to perform, but fortunately I have a co-owner brother who had a cooler head. It's outrageous. That was in Chester County PA, not far from you Jim.

Locally here in Florida a fellow committed suicide after trying for 18 months to get the local authorities to move on his request for occupancy permits. They kept stringing him along with one new modification after another. His poor wife/widow carried on after his death and finally did open the restaurant only to sell it after a few months. In my opinion, the problem is in giving small minds some power. They don't know how to handle their responsibility.

Jason Roehl
05-25-2007, 7:08 PM
Perhaps we're approaching our advice and encouragement to Jim from the wrong angle. Jim, maybe you just need to find the right watering hole, golf course, or campaign to which you can contribute. :D

I've even heard of some terrible conflicts of interest imposing themselves on builders. A builder couldn't get his cert. of occ. on some rental units. Finally, after numerous calls to the inspector's office, someone suggested he buy some materials from a certain retailer--owned by a member of the local planning commission. He bought some stuff and his C.O. showed up the next day.

Karl Laustrup
05-25-2007, 7:45 PM
WOW! Jim, it's a good thing I didn't have to go through what you're going through to build. I'd be dead or in jail facing homicide charges.

It just doesn't make sense that they are making sprinklers a mandatory part of your addition. And at this late date? Smacks of whoever thinking that if we spring this on him too early, he'll take us to court.

While sprinklers are a great tool to help fight fires, many great thoughts have been brought up here, as to why they shouldn't be in individual homes. Is the township going to phase out their VFD?

Here's a thought though Jim. As you stated there are some high $$$$ homes built that didn't have to have these sprinklers. I'd start investigating and while you may not have the time right now to do anything about these sprinklers, perhaps in the future you could sue to recoup the money spent on installation and maintenance.

Hang in there and keep us updated.

Karl

Jeffrey Makiel
05-25-2007, 7:59 PM
I've recently been somewhat sickened by local building officials too.

Our secretary from work retired to help take care of her father, mother and uncle. All three were in their 90's and were wheelchair confined. So, she needed a deck on her house with a wheelchair ramp. I volunteered to do the drawings and help obtain the permit. I was reminded that the ramp has certain slope requirements, however they did not know what they were! It didn't matter since I did but I didn't want show any hint of arrogance.

Long story short. It took almost 8 months to get a simple permit for a 20x15 square deck and a ramp. First, the set back was off by 4" on a 2 acre property, then the framing was not up to their spec although it surpassed the requirements in standard framing charts, and then there was just common delay. The drawing was done in a professional format and any simple calculations that were required were done by an engineer.

Well, she finally got the permit. They did not want to issue a permit unless somebody shows them a builders license. They were concerned that a contractor was going to do the work instead of family and friends. They told us that we need a permit even when hiring landscapers to install flowers, and the landscaper must be licensed! So much for hiring neighborhood kids.

Unfortunately, her mom had passed away during this process. I felt so angry and sad for her loss. She probably would have enjoyed being on the deck in the little time she had left. And, as I looked around her neighborhood, all I see are new big box developments popping up at an alarming pace. How did these builders go thru all this headache while building an entire house let alone an entire community?! Somethng stinks.

I certainly see how this could drive small contractors out of business. There comes a point when a homeowner will not pay for these added and unecessary expenses that are passed on to them.

Jim, sorry that my post does not help your situation. However, I am hoping that misery loves company. :)

-Jeff :)

Ben Grunow
05-25-2007, 9:20 PM
Jim- It might be worth a look at the code to see when the sprinklers became "required" in your area and if they really are at all. Canges to the code only apply to permits issued after the change date. So if your permit is old and they are just telling you now that you need sprinklers, thye could be wrong.

Just a thought.

My town requires that all chimneys be flashed to the flue and that second floor laundry rooms have a pan/drain like a shower. The flashing part we do anyway but the pan in the laundry room is expensive and in reality, if the hoses burst you have bigger problems than a 2" drain can handle. We just do it to avoid a fight and because we know in advance (they have a list of all the things they want that they give you when yo uapply for a permit and no they wont accept a fiberglass pan)

Look into it. No sprinklkers required here by the way.

Only other thought is that there might be an alternative system that would satisfy the code and cost less? Not suer what but it might be worth reading the code carefully.

Good luck

Ben

Mike Cutler
05-25-2007, 9:27 PM
(they have a list of all the things they want that they give you when yo uapply for a permit and no they wont accept a fiberglass pan)
Ben

??? Ben What do they require. I've only ever seen fiberglass kits available for this.
I put our laundry on the second floor in '94. There wasn't a requirement for the drain pan at the time unless it was a rental property. I still put it in because it was a prudent, and unlike Jim's situation inexpensive. I tested mine. It took all the water the valves could supply.

Jim Becker
05-25-2007, 9:51 PM
Ben, the sprinkler requirement is in a published township ordinance...it's not something that the inspector and fire marshal are making up. Our permit can't be "old"...we don't have it yet. It's going on several months now from the first application due to the "surprises"...

Michael Morgan
05-26-2007, 7:53 AM
Jim, My motto has always been to "Always be nice! Until it's time not to be nice" It is definatley time not to be nice Jim. It is a shame that these local townships and municipalities have the power they do or I should say the power they think they have.
A few weeks ago I had a visit from our local code enforcement officer. I have been clearing about 1.5 acres thats in the middle of my 25 acres, some grading and a little cut and fill operation. And built a road from my house to it. Anyway someone called the township because they heard my skidsteer running and a stump grinder. He wanted to know what I was doing and needed to determine what permits were needed. I met with him and he told me I needed a $250.00 grading of lots permit and of course he wouldn't tell me who called. I said No, he said they will fine me if I don't. I said then tell me who called which he wouldn't do. I then told him that according to the US Constitution I have they "right to confront my accuser" I am sure at this point he thought I was a real wacko but he made a complete 180 on the permit thing and asked me if I would just not work to late or start to early. The only reason I want to know who called is so I can un invite them to our July 4th party:D

Ted Calver
05-26-2007, 9:22 AM
Jim,
You have my sympathy. Best I can tell, most folks don't pay a lot of attention to what their local governments are up to. As a result, municipal governments assume more and more power over the people they purport to represent. Lots of ordinance changes slide into place with little or no response to requests for public input. Nobody shows up at public hearings except special interest groups either intent on imposing parochial views on their neighbors, or claiming to represent half the people in the county when they really don't. The average person doesn't realize the amount of control a municipality has over them until they attempt to do something with their land and find out that a bunch of unqualified strangers actually control what they can or can't do. I've actually heard my local fire officials talking about residential sprinklers. I'm sure if they thought they could get away with it they would require them. Until such time as more citizens get involved with local government to inject some common sense into the process and make their voices heard above the sound of the special interests, we should not be surprised at the results.

Phil Thien
05-26-2007, 11:05 AM
Whatever you do, you just make sure those sprinkler heads are well insulated and not exposed to freezing temps. This last winter we had some cold snaps (not even real bad ones) and my local library's sprinkler system failed (and I read of several others in our area). The library tried to downplay the damage, but the entire periodical section was damaged.

Ben Grunow
05-26-2007, 2:28 PM
We put a vinyl pan (or copper or lead but almost never anymore) with tile set in mud over it. The pan runs up the wall a bit and makes the whole room like a big shower floor. My point is that the water is usually spraying all over the place when a hose lets go so the pan is nice but might not really catch spraying water. Better than no pan though as other types of failures do occur. BTW, my tile man is also named Mike Cutler. Small world.

Jim, I have been in situations where an inspector tries to make us conform to a new code issue that was adopted after the date of issuance of the permit (around here permits can take 8 months and projects sometimes dont start for a couple of years). In these types case, I am only required to adhere to the building code at the time the permit was issued, not the new code.

I was just hoping, for your sake, that your township had just adopted the sprinkler code and you might have made it under the wire.

Can you do any of this yourself and save?

Ben

Jim Becker
05-26-2007, 6:23 PM
Can you do any of this yourself and save?

No time for that...I'm already committed to the cabinetry and a few other things that are appropriate for my shop. I have an excellent GC and I'm letting him run with the job. But he's one of the most communicative contractors I've ever met and that also jives with his excellent references. For the sprinkler system, he's not taking his mark-up and also doing all the foot-work. He's doing the same on a few other of the "surprises".

Bart Leetch
05-26-2007, 6:56 PM
Jim

A few years back in the county where I grew up the builders & sub-contractors got tough. There were some councilmen that thought they could just run the whole show & proceeded to enact laws that just shut the whole building program down due to all the laws. All the contractors & sub-contractors held a few meetings & did what ever was required & got the people causing all the problems re-called & kicked out of office. Building was the main industry & you just don't shut down the main industry. How ever it was to late for my cousin he owned the largest insulation business in the area & it cause him to lose his business. The big if is if you could get all the people to stand up together & just say no

Greg Cuetara
05-26-2007, 7:48 PM
Jim I live up here in Maine and I was looking into building a house in a local community. If I were to build a house in a development then I had to install a sprinkler system but if I were to just buy land then I would not need to install a sprinkler system. The fire marshall said that a sprinkler system should only cost about $1 to $1.50 per square foot. I was looking at building an 1,800 sqft house and I got quotes in at approx. 15k to 20k. It really was a dealbreaker and we decided not to build there. I thought it was so ridiculous that they could determine in a development there were different requirements to build a house. After all was said and done I did find a new system from upnor....i think that is their name.....who builds the sprinkler system right into the cold water system for the house all with the pex tubing so there really is not much more work except to install the sprinkler heads....I would be interested to hear if anyone has used this system. Another comment from the peanut gallery is that I am a Professional Engineer and there are very strict requirements for me to build a structure along with the fact that I need a lot of education and testing. But even after all the experience etc. a great deal of decisions are made by hopefully a high school graduate who is the building inspector and probably thinking more about politics.
Good luck with your addition. I'm sure the additions and suprises will only get worse once construction starts hopefully not though.

Jim Becker
05-26-2007, 8:58 PM
Greg, we looked at doing the direct tie to our domestic water supply, but would have to replace our submerged deep well pump with a variable speed unit and it's a real "ching...ching..." expense to do that due to required testing, etc. The system with the storage tank (once the sprinkler guy could identify a tank that could physically fit where we had space to put it...) is much more cost effective. 'Sounds like we're getting a pretty good deal at $7K based on a sq ft calculation relative to that cost you anticipated up in Maine. Our addition happens to be planned at 1850 sq ft.