A Little Help... A Little Chat

[Joe Scarfo]

Hello....

I'm here often and don't often chat.. but once in a while I chime in. The expertise to be found here is great.

Last summer I bought a used lathe and it took months to figure it out, then winter set in, now it's warm and time to play out in the shop again.

I just turned my first pen, from an acrylic blank none the less. My son saw that puppy and took off with it. I'll see it again sometime next week. If I can, I'll get a pic and post'er.

Why am I writing? I've attempted 5 acrylic pens and only 2 successes.

The first failure was a blow out on the drill press. I went to a different type of bit and fixed that problem.

The 2nd attempt worked fantastic...

The 3rd attempt worked fantastic....

The 4th attempt blew up on the lathe

The 5th attempt became a drilling problem....

Now it's time to call in tech support.

When I'm drilling the hole, I've noticed the insertion point is nice and tight, the exit point is sloppy. I don't have a drill press w/ a long throw so the guys at Woodcraft talked me into using the lathe to drill the hole. I bought the taper and chuck to hold the bit in the tail stock and I have a nova chuck to hold the blank. The lathe turns the blank onto the stationary bit. No pun intended.. but you know the drill...

The insertion point is fine, the exist point is sloppy. That's why I think the 3rd attempt blew out. To much slop at the end. that's where it flew apart.

Any ideas what could be causing this? I can't believe my $100 15 year old craftsman bench top drill press is doing a better job than the new set up from Woodcraft. I'll be returning the chuck and taper adapter this weekend.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Next Question... I've made my son the pen (he's 12 and is beaming ear to ear over it) and now my daughter wants a pencil. She's 8 and is learning to write better. The .5mm kits at Woodcraft have lead that's just to small. Any ideas where I can get a .9mm kit?

To buff out the acrylic pens, I've discovered micro mesh pads? Those puppies are very 'spensive.. Any leads on how I can price them better bulk? Are they washable? How long will they last? I noticed when I pat them like chalk board erasers, they would clean up and sand a little more...

My first success cost into $500 to make.. Number 2 came in at less than $15. I'm hoping nbr 3 comes in a less than $15, but it's not looking good. it's like fishing, the first fish costs way to much if you factor in the cost of the boat... then the next one is only the cost of gas and bait.. The priceless part is the fun and the look on your childs face when they realize the pen is for them...

Anyone in the Green Bay area? Where are you getting your supplies? Woodcraft is quite the drive and Woodworkers Depot can sure be proud of their inventory. In anycase, it is what it is... Where are the locals getting supplies? I'm a recent transplant from Tampa to Green Bay and still learning my way around.

Thanks
Joe

[Richard Madison]

Joe,
You probably know this, but with acrylic you must withdraw the bit and remove chips VERY frequently to avoid excessive heating of the blank, melting the chips, etc. Just a thought. Never made a pen, but have drilled some acrylic.

[Stephen Hibbs]

I personally keep the drill bit in the headstock, and use the tailstock to push the blank onto the drill bit. This gives me plenty of control of the process, and gives a good, clean exit for the bit. I wouldn't e too worried about your rates of success since that seems to be about standard for acrylic blanks (i've never tried them since they are so finicky and expensive).

Micro mesh lasts a while; I've had mine over a year and I've used it on pens, bowls, bottle stoppers, and cups, and it's still going strong, so the high cost pays off in longevity, just use light pressure.

If you buy pencil kits from pennstateindustries.com, they claim to be in .5mm, but they're really .7, which is pretty thick. I don't know of any .9mm kits.

[Joe Melton]

My experience is that some acrylics are easier to drill than others. Those that are more brittle tend to blow out when drilling, and the softers ones do not. If your blanks are long enough, try drilling deep enough for the tube, but do not exit. Then cut the end off to expose the hole.
Some drill bits do work better than others to prevent blowout, but I've not experimented with that. Perhaps someone else can advise you better.
HTH,
Joe

[Bill Boehme]

I'm with Stephen Hibbs on this. You must put the drill in the headstock end and the blank in the tailstock end or you will have the problem that you are experiencing. The reason is that the headstock and tailstock are never in absolute perfect angular alignment. It may not seem intuitively obvious at first why this makes a difference, but if you make a sketch of both situations and draw an exaggerated misalignment angle, it will become obvious why drilling from the headstock end is the only way to go. The problem get complicated even more when you add in the radial misalignment between the headstock and tailstock. Basically, the problem is that when drilling from the tailstock end, the axis of rotation does not coincide with the drill bit centerline. Let me know if you have any questions about this and I may have time tomorrow to post a sketch.

Bill

[Joe Scarfo]

Great advise... thanks...

I considering putting the bit into the headstock, but the tail stock doesn't ride in a very tight track.

In order to put the blank into the tailstock, I'll need some sort of adapter. #2MT on one end and threads on the other to hold the Nova Chuck... I assume this is another woodcraft item?

Thanks
Joe

[Steve Trauthwein]

Use your drill press, drill at fairly slow speed with blank held in a centering chucking devise (make something up in the shop). Drill from both ends and any slop will be in center, this also takes care of the drillingdistance of your spindle.

Regards, Steve

[Jeffrey Fusaro]

I'm with Stephen Hibbs on this. You must put the drill in the headstock end and the blank in the tailstock end or you will have the problem that you are experiencing. The reason is that the headstock and tailstock are never in absolute perfect angular alignment. It may not seem intuitively obvious at first why this makes a difference, but if you make a sketch of both situations and draw an exaggerated misalignment angle, it will become obvious why drilling from the headstock end is the only way to go. The problem get complicated even more when you add in the radial misalignment between the headstock and tailstock. Basically, the problem is that when drilling from the tailstock end, the axis of rotation does not coincide with the drill bit centerline. Let me know if you have any questions about this and I may have time tomorrow to post a sketch.

Bill


BILL--

if you have time, i'd be interested to see this sketch.

also, some additional clarification on how you hold the blank would be helpful.

you got me confused on this one... :confused:

[Joe Scarfo]

I do have a store bought jig for the drill press to hold the pen blank perpendicular to the table. That was part of the $500 to make my first pen.

I considered drilling the hole part way then flipping the blank and drilling from the other side.

Frankly, I don't think I'm that good where I'll hit it dead center and so it'll be off a little... In other words, the results are likely to be worse.

Maybe the right answer here is to step up and get a better drill press, one that'll have a 6" throw...

Thanks
Joe

[Stephen Hibbs]

Clarification- When drilling on the lathe, put the jacobs chuck in the headstock, and mark the centers on the ends of the blank. Then press the center of one end onto the point of the tailstock's cone (just apply some hand pressure and it should make a small divot). Then wind the tailstock all the way in (so that little of it is extended from its base), push the base towards the headstock until the other end of the blank is nearly touching the drill bit, and lock the tailstock's base down. Turn on the lathe, and start winding the tailstock out so that the blank is being drilled, using your left hand to hold the blank steady and to avoid rotation. If you're having trouble keeping the blanks from spinning, try a wrench to hold the blank and/or turn the speed up. You may want to stop the lathe a few times and blow out dust. When you are almost drilled through, slow down the speed at which you push the blank onto the bit, and be aware that the bit will soon be chewing your tailstock cone (not much if you're careful), and be ready to push the blank the last inch or so through the bit.

I've used this with far more success than a drill press, and it's pretty fast once you get the technique down. Just cut the blanks to length first so they are shorter (shorter = less error).

[Jeffrey Fusaro]

thanks for the explanation, stephen.

now, i understand.

[Bill Boehme]

.......Maybe the right answer here is to step up and get a better drill press, one that'll have a 6" throw...

I don't think that you will find a drill press with a 6" throw -- seems like somewhere around 3 5/8" is the limit.

Stephen,
Thanks for the clear explanation. I probably won't have time today to do a sketch.

Bill

[Jim Underwood]

Thanks for the explanation on the lathe drilling. I wondered why I had so much trouble. Even when I went to a higher quality bit and chuck I still had the "wobbles". Now it all makes sense...

But now I have another question. Using the process described, would it not make sense to use a drive spur in the tailstock to help keep the blank stationary?

[Ron Raymond]

...The priceless part is the fun and the look on your childs face when they realize the pen is for them...

If you think that's priceless, just wait till you help them turn their own pen! My 10 year old son can actually turn his own pen (when I can get him away from the computer) and my 7 year old daughter thinks sanding is really fun. Anybody tell her different and I'll kick your behind!:p:D

Others have already given better drilling advice than I could, but you also asked about supplies...check out this thread for a recent discussion:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=57323

[Dick Strauss]

Joe,
You can solve the problem another way. Mount the blanks firmly to the drill press table. Drill the blanks half way through. Stop the drilling. Move the table up so that the drill bit bottoms in the blank hole with zero quill travel. Before you start the press, make sure that you can turn the chuck by hand (to make sure that the drill bit isn't bound in the partial hole). Then start the drill press and finish your hole. This assumes that your drill bit is long enough to do it this way. It is time consuming but it works!

Make sure that you follow the suggestions of others (clear the shavings often, slow speed, etc) Also make sure that you have a clean piece of wood underneath the blank to support the end and prevent tearout as the bit exits the hole.

FYI Bill - Delta makes drill presses with 6" of quill travel (Models 20-959LX, 20-950, 17-990X)

Good luck,
Dick

[Bernie Weishapl]

Joe I had a fellow show me a way to keep from blowing out most any blank. Joe M. hit on it. This gentleman told me on any blank to cut it 3/4" longer than needed. He told me to measure the length of the bit on the side of the blank and use a piece of tape to mark the depth on the bit. He said to drill to within 1/4" of the end. If your drill press is like mine it does not have enough travel like Dick said raise your table and turn the bit to make sure it isn't binding. Turn the drill press on and finish. Then I take the blank to the bandsaw and saw the blank to length with a perfect hole.

By the way Joe I got the threaded tailstock adaptor for my chuck at CUSA.

[Stephen Hibbs]

It may, that never occurred to me, but you would need to apply more hand pressure on the tailstock, and spinning is rarely a major issue.

[Rich Souchek]

Bernie above has a method that works good and is what I've found and use.
I mark the middle section of the plastic blank (helps with alignment of figure) and cut both sides long by 3/8" or so. Then I drill both sections of the pen blanks, from the middle ends so the holes line up better. Make sure the drill does not penetrate the bottom but stops up to 1/4" short.
Then cut the extra lenght off the blank sections with a saw.
Found out most of my acrlic blanks shattered when the bit started an exit hole, so make sure to stop drilling before this happens.
Truning acrlic blanks is relatively easy if my tools are sharp and the lathe speed is as high as the lathe will turn. I prefer a skew for starting and shapping the acrlic blanks but other report good results with gouges or scrappers.
My first acrlic blanks went "boom" just like yours, but read a good bit at penturners.org for help. My success rate with acrlic blanks started out at about 1 out of 3 and now is about 9 out of 10 or better.
Micro mesh is real good for polishing the acrlic, but it is very sensative to heat and dirty MM is tempermental. MM is often cleaned by putting the piece in a blue jean pocket and washing the jeans with the MM in the pockets. Another hint is the MM actually sands wet better than dry.
Best hint contained here again is "penturners.org."
Rich S.

[Rich Stewart]

Ummm. Does anybody else cut the blank in half before drilling? I always cut my blank to size and then drill out. Only need about 2 and a half inch throw then. I hold the half blank with the chuck in the headstock and run the drill bit through the half blank with the tailstock wheel. I hardly ever have a problem doing it this way. Having said that, I also have not ever drilled an acrylic blank. I hear heat is a BIG issue with acrylic. Am I doing it wrong?

Rich

[Dick Strauss]

Rich,
I cut mine in half as well. Unfortunately my little desktop drill press only has 2 1/4" of travel. I usually leave my blanks a little long (2 1/2") and cut/sand them square once the 2 1/8" insert is glued in place.

A clean piece of wood placed between the blank and the DP table will prevent blowouts. If you have already drilled a hole using that board, move it slightly to a fresh location for each pen blank. It's a real pain in the @#$ to do it but you'll almost completely eliminate blowouts (and you'll keep from fouling your bits on the table).

[Steve Campbell]

Another way to drill holes deeper than your quill travel on the drill press is to start drilling with the blank on the table, When you get half way through just stop and put a chunk of wood under the blank and finish drilling.
Hope that makes sense.
Steve

[Joe Scarfo]

Thanks for the drill press advise, it's how i've been drilling the holes before getting the drill press accoutrements...

I'll have the kids sanding their own pens soon enough.... first they've gotta get comfortable w/ safety, safety, and then a little more safety...

I've worked in the shop with my son in the past.. If I had a digi camera I'd show you guys the automatic dog feeder we made and the mahogany shark valentines day box. We sanded and glued sharks fins for the top and sides.

Both were an incredible hit at schoool...

[Joe Scarfo]

For those interested in an update...

We have turned another 6 pens. Every success was wood. Every failure was acrylic.

I turned 5 "artist pencils" for my 8 year old daughter. One for each color. She went absolutely nuts when I showed them to her. I handed them over one at a time and she squeeled with delight each time.

My girlfriend Julie turned a pen from something like black and white combo glue up from Woodcraft. That was really soft wood...

Turning wood pens is definately easier than acrylic.

Now I have to share I did buy an upgrade drill press. I scored a 16 1/2 delta from a guy in Chi for $220 and it's in incredible shape. What a difference between that and my little 8" Craftsman benchtop.

We tried 2 more acrylics and both blew apart on the lathe and for the life of me, i don't know what is wrong. Each time they flew apart in the same place, at the point where the nib would be.

Any secrets to this stuff? We're going very very slow, by that I mean.... not being agressive with the gouge. We are turning the pen at almost max speed on the iron bed delta lathe.

Should we slow it down?

We're not being agressive to the point the turning is heating up, initially I was afraid heat may be part of the problem.

Thanks for any advise to be offered.

I'll try to post pics the next time my daughter will let me pry them from her hands.

Joe

[Joe Melton]

Joe, be sure your gouge is sharp and take timid, light cuts. You are using a gouge, right? I suggest first turning the ends down to close to the bushings, and then doing the remainder of the blank. That is, round over the ends first.
Also, concentrate on cutting sideways, avoiding putting pressure at a right angle to the blank. If a large piece blows out, and you can find it, simply glue it back in place with CA and continue.
Acrylics make some interesting pens, but they require a bit more care in turning.
Joe

[Joe Scarfo]

Joe....

Yeah, the gouge is sharp.. not razor blade sharp, but sharp...

Doing the ends (nib, middle, and cap) first had not occurred to us. We'll try that... We're taking very timid cuts and I've noticed the "mini explosion" doesn't happen till we're almost done with the piece.

Now.. using CA glue to re attach what blew off.. Now that was a piece of "eureka" advise..

I feel foolish not having thought of it myself... Interestingly enough, if it was wood, I would have...

(no puns intended during the development of this response... they just happened)

I'll be trying to climbing that acrylic mountain again this weekend. Thanks so much for your advise and input.

Joe

[Nancy Laird]

I don't think that you will find a drill press with a 6" throw -- seems like somewhere around 3 5/8" is the limit.

Steel City's 17" drill press has a 6" stroke, so does the Delta 17-990X 16-1/2" DP.

Nancy

[Rich Souchek]

Joe,
Nother idea for you. My success with acrylics started out bad, but is not close to 100%. One of the things that made a difference for me was to make sure the glue job was secure and uniformly spread along the blank.
It is suggested for the brass tube to be degreased and then rough sanded. I now coat both the inside of the blank and the outside of the tube with CA and rotate the sleeve in to spread the glue better. The resutl is that the blank is glued better and more uniformly to the sleeve. Inspection of my blown or exploding blanks indicated the damaged areas were not glued to the tube. Check yours and see how it is. The plastic blanks can be glued back with CA and be almost impossible to find afterwards.
Rich S.

[Joe Scarfo]

Rich....

Thanks for the advise and you're right.. I too noticed the breakage occurred where the tube was not glued to the blank. I'm finding it difficult to guage the time for the glue to set.. There is onlya few moments to get this done.

I'll try to come up with a method which will more uniformly distribute the glue...

Joe

[Jeffrey Fusaro]

Rich....

Thanks for the advise and you're right.. I too noticed the breakage occurred where the tube was not glued to the blank. I'm finding it difficult to guage the time for the glue to set.. There is onlya few moments to get this done.

I'll try to come up with a method which will more uniformly distribute the glue...

Joe


joe--

i've been using loctite brand "sumo" urethane glue for my wooden pen blanks. it's a one part adhesive that foams and expands when in contact with moisture. it does a good job of filling the tube/blank void during the expansion/curing stage. it has a several minute open time before curing, so getting the glue spread around sufficiently is not a problem. the one down side is that it needs to cure for several hours, or more, to fully cure. after about 20 minutes, i go back and remove the excess foam from around the edge of the hole in blank. it's easier to remove the partially cured adhesive than it is to remove the fully cured adhesive. i usually glue on one night, then turn on the following night.

i have no experience with acrylic blanks, thus far, but i thought this might help.

[Joe Scarfo]

Jerry,

I don't know how well that type of glue works with acrylic... I'll ask around...

thanks for the advise.

Joe

[Bill Boehme]

Joe....

Yeah, the gouge is sharp.. not razor blade sharp, but sharp...

The tools really ought to be razor sharp when cutting something as brittle as acrylic. It is easier than you think to apply too much pressure. Also, a skew can do a much better job on acrylic pens than a gouge and it is easier to control to get a smooth gentle flowing curved surface.

Bill

[TYLER WOOD]

hmmmmm.... just me, but I've had better luck with acrylic than with wood. I was using ebony though. I always cut my blanks in half and then drill them. Also try using a medium ca glue if you are using the thin. It sets slower and fills gaps better. You have more working time and it oozes instead of flows. Sticks to the tube better when trying to insert it. Flow some glue inside the blank and to the outside of the tube. Insert the tube and twist it atleast 3 full turns when inserting it. This gives the glue time to spread out along the blank as well as fill any voids drilling may have chunked out. I hope this helps. 5 acrylic pens and 0 blow outs!! Maybe luck, maybe not. Not sure!!!

[Daniel Heine]

Hello,

I have ruined many acrylic blanks while drilling. Now, I have all of my drill bits marked with taope for the proper depth, and I cut my blanks longer than needed for the tubes. I then drill to the tape mark, and saw off the excess material. Since doing this, I have not had any blowouts on the drill press. I have also found that if I glueubes in using CA thick, I don't get the blowouts on the lathe just before hitting the bushing size. I get a much better seal between the blank and the tube.

You definitely need sharp tools with these, and exercise patience. Take a little at a time. You want fine shavings when turning the acrylics. Riding the bevel is a term you will hear a lot, keep the gouge at roughly them same angle to the blank as the bevel on the gouge.

Good Luck,
Dan Heine

[Joe Scarfo]

I've got another acrylic on the lathe and no explosion yet... it just may make it through. I've got the tools seriously sharp and I'm running the lathe flat out.

I've added a woodpecker drill press table to the mix and it's helping keep the blank and drill bit on the same plane. I also added a laser to the drill press which is helping my sad eyes find the middle..

For those who want to peek.. here's a pic of most of what we've made.

The wood pencils are artist pencils from Woodcraft. Unfortunately one the caps (used to sharpen the pencil point) has been lost and I can't find a replacement.... ahhh, the saga of giving nice stuff to an 8 year old to take to school.


I tried to post a pic of the pen and pencils but I can't. The file is to large and I don't know how to reduce it....

Sorry Guys...

Joe