storing flammables

[Gary Hoemann]

How do you people store the flammable products you use in wood finishing?
I'm thinking of all the laquer thinner, mineral spirits, alcohol, etc. I am planning a new shop and am trying to think of the areas I have not addressed.
It seems I remember hearing that an old refrigerator offered some protection.

[Brian Kent]

I was cleaning out a youth room at church, for the first time in many years. I found a dried out, old wooden cabinet in a room that gets about 110° through most of the summer.

On the bottom shelf I found several half-full cans of charcoal lighter fluid and boxes of wooden matches.

Right above that was a shelf full of old Christmas ornaments made from wood shavings.

I'm so glad I found it all and got rid of it before a mouse tried to chew its way through a box of matches.

[daniel lane]

It seems I remember hearing that an old refrigerator offered some protection.

Gary,

If you're talking about an old, unpowered refrigerator, you may be okay. Putting flammables in a non-explosion proof refrigerator can often lead to unexpected "boom" sounds and exciting experiments in refrigerator door ballistics. Just do a Google search and you'll even find pictures, I'm sure!

I believe I heard once that you can adequately explosion-proof a refrigerator by removing the light wiring and moving the thermostat to the outside of the body, but I can't believe it would be worth it.

Personally, I use a metal chemicals storage cabinet that I got for free from a university "junk" meet and drilled holes in it to prevent vapor build up. I also don't store anything highly volatile in it, relegating those things to storage outside the house.

Hope this helps.



daniel

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

How do you people store the flammable products you use in wood finishing?
I'm thinking of all the laquer thinner, mineral spirits, alcohol, etc. I am planning a new shop and am trying to think of the areas I have not addressed.
It seems I remember hearing that an old refrigerator offered some protection.

Under my work bench.

A Fridge or other closed cabinet should be spark proof power vented to outside to prevent crystallization of material in the threads.

Once where I used to work there w was an un-vented flame proof storage cabinet that almost no one ever used. I opened the thing one day and lo found jars (old jars) of nitric acid and toluene among other things just sitting there with dusty phenolic screw caps. EEEEK~!!

[Dave MacArthur]

Hi,
Though it doesn't apply to a homeowner, for commercial/employee and government situations all flammable stuff must be stored in a flammable-proof cabinet approved by OSHA. And of course, since the safety concerns apply just as much to you, I still think it's a good idea. As a safety guy for the AF, we had to ensure they were outside as well. I was researching this for the past week (I need one too!), and neither Home Depot or Lowe's sells an OSHA approved metal cabinet. However, I DID get the info from the flammables cabinet that HD uses for their own stuff, and looked at their website, which has many "safety cabinets":
google "Eagle Manufacturing Co"

They are pretty expensive, so I have been looking on Craig'sList for one. Just found an "OSHA approved 80 gallon flammable's cabinet" last night in my city for 90$, and have seen pleny of metal cabinets that weren't specially made for flammables for 30-70$.

Good luck!

[glenn bradley]

I have a set of shallow shelves running up one side of the roll up door. These products sit there away from sparks and such. I made the shelves just deep enough for the 'standard' containers so junk doesn't get stacked over there with them.

I have often wondered about another method of storage but it seems improper cabinet storage can be more dangerous than an open shelf. I am open to learning the proper way to store this stuff as I prefer to deal with this pre-boom as opposed to post-boom.

[Larry Nall]

I keep it in a small aluminum storage building well away from the house and the shop. That's where that lawn mower gas, pesticides and other nasty things live.

[daniel lane]

For the record, if anyone has unlimited sources of money and is interested in a flammables cabinet, they can be found fairly reasonably (for a flammables cabinet) from http://www.usplastics.com under their safety supply section. I think the cheapest is $400+, though, so don't go there expecting to find a steal!

Finally, after my comments earlier, it occurred to me that I didn't expound upon my modified cabinet further. I use a metal cabinet with insulated front doors that have a padlock hasp on them, and I drilled 2" holes on opposite sides to allow ventilation to prevent build-up of flammable vapors. Sure, there are OSHA guidelines, etc., and frankly, most mortgage documents will state that you can't keep flammables like gasoline in your garage (Seriously! I laughed at that one for my first house!), but common sense is all you need to be safe:
Flammable vapors are only explosive between minimum and maximum explosion limits, i.e. you must have at least "x" and less than "y" concentration before it goes "boom".
If you prevent vapors from reaching "x" concentration, it doesn't matter *where* you store them, really. Good ventilation is good sense. (And of course, common sense is even better!)
Vapors need a spark source to go "boom", so ground your cabinet if you can make sparks.
Flammables can only burn if they are there, so if you're not going to use that particular can of solvent, or it's been there forever, get rid of it (safely, using proper disposal technique - don't put it down the drain)!! It's hardly worth the $4 you save by keeping half a can of mineral spirits around if it can cost you your home!That's probably enough lecturing, my apologies if I came across overly didactic. I've had some experience in flammables storage and chemical safety, so if I can answer any questions I would be happy to, otherwise thanks for reading this far. :)


daniel

P.S. If anyone wants specific "x" and "y" limits, I'll be glad to do the research for you. I know of several good places to find that sort of information.

[Mike Cutler]

I have an OSHA approved flammable materials storage locker. The "automatic" closing feature had failed.
They aren't easy to find used. Most large companies cut the doors off and sell them as scrap to avoid the liability of surplusing them as "used".

[Gary Herrmann]

Fireman's son. I have a flammables cabinet in my basement.

[John Schreiber]

I found a locking metal cabinet at a garage sale. It's about 4' tall, 3' wide and just deep enough for a regular paint can. I feel relatively safe using that, but it doesn't have any ventilation at all.

Am I better off adding some ventilation or keeping it sealed up?

[Brad Naylor]

I store maybe 20 gallons of lacquers, stains, and thinners at any one time in my finishing shop. I have an old 6' x 3' lockable steel office storage cabinet which I have modified by flipping the shelves over and welding them up to make 'trays' which will contain any spillages.

It's then plastered with warning stickers. Cost me maybe $10 in total.

Don't know about laws stateside but I get an annual visit from the fire brigade and from my insurance company and they are more than happy with it.

Cheers
Brad

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Don't know about laws stateside but I get an annual visit from the fire brigade and from my insurance company and they are more than happy with it.
Are you running a business?

[Brad Naylor]

Yes

Brad

[Ken Garlock]

When was the last time any of you saw a OSHA approved cabinet in use in the paint section of HD or Lowe's? You Haven't! Why, because the flammables are in sealed containers that are maintained at or around room temperature.

There is a lesson there, sports fans. Keep your flammable supplies in sealed containers, and at reasonable temperatures. Put your lids on the cans tightly. I like to step on a paint can lid in several different directions until I can see that the lid is down evenly around the perimeter of the top. I keep my thinners in their original containers and the lid on tight. I only pour out what I can use at a given time. To clean a brush, I take the thinner container outside along with the brush and a cup putting the thinner in. .

It is just a simple case of using common sense. If it looks like a potential problem, don't do it.

Remember, if you depend on the government, you will be sadly disappointed:( .

[Dave MacArthur]

Good point on the sealed can/temperature. Unfortunately, I live in Phoenix, and the temperature is already above 100 degrees F, and inside my garage it can get to 120 or more with the sun beating on the garage doors. I definitely don't want to store flammables inside the house, and the high temps worry me enough that I'm looking to move the paint cans off plastic shelving and outside in the shade inside a flammables locker, along with some other car chemicals.

[Paul Dwight]

I have zero expertise in this area. However, I always thought that the main purpose of flammable-liquids storage systems was to keep fire (and high heat from fire) away from explosive/flammable liquids. Stated another way, we're not trying to contain a fire that's being fueled by lacquer thinner or mineral spirits or whatever; instead, we're trying to prevent a fire in another part of the shop from reaching (and being fueled by) lacquer thinner or mineral spirits or whatever.

It makes sense to me that a good cabinet for this purpose would be made of metal and would be tightly sealed except for a vent that runs to the outside. I'm honestly confused about the desirability of a vent that's open to the shop. Seems like a vent open to the shop would provide an entrance point for sparks, embers or flames, which would defeat the purpose of the cabinet.

I remember an article in FWW a few years ago in which the author built a flammable liquids storage area out of construction lumber covered with two layers of 5/8" sheetrock, staggering the joints between layers. I believe the door was made by laminating two layers of 3/4" plywood. I thought the whole thing was somewhat analogous to the fireproofing measures required between an attached garage and the rest of the house (i.e., 5/8" sheetrock and a solid-core door). It's not technically fire proof, but it should resist the spread of a fire long enough for firefighters to get control.

When my 'round tuit list gets short enough, I'm going to build out a storage area in my shop along the lines of the FWW article. Mine will be tall enough that I can use an old solid-core door for access to the storage. I'll insulate the stud bays with fiberglass and weatherstrip the door, including a threshold. I haven't decided yet whether to install a vent to the outside. Materials costs will be negligible, although it will take some time (especially considering how slow I am at mudding and taping drywall). Unfortunately, shop projects are pretty low on my/LOML's priority list right now.

[Jules Dominguez]

In an aluminum lawn tools storage shed well away from the house.

[daniel lane]

It makes sense to me that a good cabinet for this purpose would be made of metal and would be tightly sealed except for a vent that runs to the outside. I'm honestly confused about the desirability of a vent that's open to the shop. Seems like a vent open to the shop would provide an entrance point for sparks, embers or flames, which would defeat the purpose of the cabinet.

Paul,

I mentioned earlier "x" and "y" concentrations, these are lower and upper explosive limits. With a sealed cabinet, any container that leaks will lose volatiles into an enclosed space and can achieve a concentration between the upper and lower explosive limits, and therefore be very, very, dangerous. With a vented cabinet, volatile vapors can move out of the cabinet, thereby (hopefully) keeping concentration below the lower explosive limit.

Your point about the vent being an entry point for sparks/etc. is a good one, but keep in mind that most vents are located in places that make it pretty danged hard to get a spark in there (e.g. back of unit spaced away from wall), and often are baffled, rather than just a gaping hole.

I've often viewed the vents as serving a secondary purpose of allowing vapors to get out of the cabinet and into my nose. If I smell something, there's a good chance I need to address the problem inside that cabinet - all containers inside should be well sealed, and the presence of vapors is a problem that needs to be corrected!

Not that anyone has suggested anything even close to this, but (in my opinion) flammables cabinets are not there to allow for the storage of poorly sealed containers, they are there to isolate the dangerous stuff and help prevent accidents. Should something have a very slow leak, or age/chemicals cause cracking of a container, the cabinet should help enclose the problem until it can be dealt with. I treat my flammables cabinet similar to my refrigerator - I check it fairly frequently, and if anything smells funny, it needs to go! :D

By far, the worst habit I have is to leave the gas can for the lawn mower in the garage, and not in a cabinet. Since the lid is not really super-tight, I'm sure it can leak. However, I do store it in an area very close to outside ventilation (and not in the same room as a gas furnace), so I feel a little safer. I've never smelled gasoline in that area, but the moment I do, that stuff is going somewhere else!


daniel

[Dave MacArthur]

Just found this on Pheonix craigs List, FWIW. They do ship etc., and just an example of what 2-3 days of searching CL will get you.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/tls/336860664.html

[David Weaver]

Garage for me on a metal rack. The metal part isn't really important, but the containers for the material are. I don't have any questionable containers. The basement never really gets above 80 degrees, and my garage is one of those types that runs 3/4ths of the way under ground - under the house.

I won't confine finish cans - they can stay out on the rack.

Same with reloading supples. They're in containers that will readily give way should they catch on fire.

[daniel lane]

If you're near St. Louis, craigslist has a listing for two cabinets, $75 each. Both need paint, but if I were in the market, I'd jump on it. :)

[Jim Grill]

Maybe this should be a new thread, but an earlier post mentioned disposing of flammables properly. I have not had very good luck figuring out where "properly" is.

I asked at the borg, my local paint supply, and the local hardware store and no one takes old paint, oils, or thinners, etc.

What do the rest of you do to dispose of these chemicals?

I have been evaporating them outside, but severely diluted, dirty thinner does not evaporate all the way. I have a few 1 gallon containers of nasty crud to dispose of and no where to take it.

I've done the kitty litter trick to absorb it at the suggestion of the borg but it never dries out and the stuff still ends up in the landfill, which is really bad IMO.

[daniel lane]

What do the rest of you do to dispose of these chemicals?

Jim,

I usually just use them to start my charcoal. ;)

Seriously, I haven't had to do this in my new locale, but I you can typically call your county or city government and inquire about household hazardous material collection. For example, here in the St. Louis area, there are drop-offs scheduled every week or so. I Googled "st louis household hazardous collection" and found this page:

http://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/doh/waste/waste_mg.html

Hope that helps!



daniel

[Jim Grill]

Thanks, Daniel!

I googled and found drop offs in my area. That's fantastic! I never knew there was such a thing.

[James Ayars]

I store most of my flammables in a big dog house in our back yard. There is a fenced dog pen around it so no little kids can't get in, and the dog is now deceased.

At my school last year, I helped clean out the chemical room. After starting, I found red and white phosphorus, nitric acid, sodium, potassium and several other acids in the same cabinet. The chemical room did not have working ventilation and items in the room had begun to corrode from the fumes.

[Jim Becker]

I have zero expertise in this area. However, I always thought that the main purpose of flammable-liquids storage systems was to keep fire (and high heat from fire) away from explosive/flammable liquids. Stated another way, we're not trying to contain a fire that's being fueled by lacquer thinner or mineral spirits or whatever; instead, we're trying to prevent a fire in another part of the shop from reaching (and being fueled by) lacquer thinner or mineral spirits or whatever.

I believe this makes sense--keeping fire away.

I don't have any "special" cabinetry for this purpose, but my finishing supplies are in a metal cabinet rescued from an office. Not ideal, but better than nothing. Of course, like many, I also have a can of mineral spirits on the floor near my bench for convenience... :o