Stanley Bailey No 4 - worth salvaging?

[Jeff Cord]

I just received and hand-me-down plan from my grandfather that appears (for the most part) to be in decent shape.
Although there is a bit of rust on all the metal pieces there's nothing deep or any apparent major damage.
I tried to sharpen the blade and that doesn't appear to be in good shape (or good quality).
The blade feels very light and it seems to be wearing away on my wet stones but not getting sharp.
My question is: should I get a new blade (and if so any recommendations?) for this and will a new blade make this a decent plane?
Or was this a low quality plane that even with a good blade it's still not worth it?
thanks,
Jeff

[Bart Leetch]

Have you flattened the back side of the blade?

So far I've not run into a blade in a Stanley/Bailey plane that I couldn't sharpen.

You can replace the blade if need be & the fact that it was your grandfather's should make you a happy camper. Clean it up & put a new blade in if need be & use it.

[E W Wilkinson]

Count your blessings. Cherish the tools of your grandfather and order a new blade and you will be pleased. I have a #4 my grandfather used and after a tune up and new blade, it is a dream to use. Not bad for a tool over 100 years old.

[Jeff Cord]

I found the edge of the blade wasn't square from side to side.
I guess my first step is to fix that, then see if I can get it sharp.
I also see that the edge of the blade (bevel) has one half shiny and one half dull almost like the blade is actually two pieces of steel pressed together.
(It isn't the fact that I've sharpened only half of it because that's not it. I put marker on the bevel and when I was sharpening it all of the marker disappeared)
Does this make sense?
Back to the sharpening.
Jeff

[Mark Stutz]

Jeff,
If you could show us a picture it might help. If this is a bailey style...Stanley, Sargent, etc, then it isn't likely to have a laminated blade. Could you have a chip breaker? Is it attached to the blade with a screw?

[Jeff Cord]

Once I get it sharpened I'll take a picture of it if I still see the "two-toned" effect.
I'm wondering if it isn't operator error and I'm not getting good contact with the stone.
I'll see what it looks like when it's done.
Jeff

[Mike Henderson]

I found the edge of the blade wasn't square from side to side.
I guess my first step is to fix that, then see if I can get it sharp.
I also see that the edge of the blade (bevel) has one half shiny and one half dull almost like the blade is actually two pieces of steel pressed together.
(It isn't the fact that I've sharpened only half of it because that's not it. I put marker on the bevel and when I was sharpening it all of the marker disappeared)
Does this make sense?
Back to the sharpening.
Jeff
Many early Stanley Bailey plane irons were laminated. They consist of a piece of steel that is the cutting edge and the rest of the iron which is either wrought iron or low carbon steel. The iron is hardened and tempered but the wrought iron (or low carbon steel) does not harden because it does not contain enough carbon. That's why you see a "two-tone" effect on the iron. The steel will take a better shine then the low carbon iron/steel, which will look grey next to the steel.

The reason this was done long ago (pre 20th Century) was that good steel was very expensive so they didn't use much of it. Irons in later planes, maybe after about WWI, were made from a single piece of steel. This was made possible by the falling cost of good steel.

Mike

[added note] Many of these early laminated irons are quite good at holding an edge (but even "good steel" was hit or miss so you can't make a general statement). Their biggest defect (to me) is their thinness which leads to chatter. The real advantage of a modern plane iron is not that it's made of better steel (which it is), nor that it has a better heat treatment (which it does), but that it's thicker and resists chatter.

[Ken Werner]

Jeff, to determine quality, it would help to know more specifics. Can you date the plane? I know you're waiting to post a picture 'til you're done, but some of us may be able to tell you more now with a good picture. Also - if the iron [blade] isn't great, a LN, Hock, or LV replacement could be a big help. Keep us posted, pun intended.

Ken

[Jeff Cord]

Took the plane apart and gave some of the metal pieces to a friend to clean up a bit. I should get it back tomorrow so I'll post something this weekend.

Where would I look to date it?
All I know is what I see on the plane. Model, manufacturer name, patent number, country of manufacture. Nothing else.

I'm going to give the stock blade a go and see how it works. Then I'll decide if it needs replacing.

Jeff

[Ryan Cathey]

Here ya go. Just answer the questions and it'll tell you how old it is.
http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanley_bench_plane/dating/dating_flowchart.html#Types%201-20

[Mark Stutz]

Thanks, Mike. Learned something new today. I did not know that the early Stanley irons were laminated. Guess I just haven't seen enough of the early ones.

Mark

[Jeff Cord]

I'm fairly certain it's a type 18 and it does have the laminated iron.
I could see it pretty clearly when I was sharpening.
Had it sand-blasted a bit to remove some rust and it looks pretty good.
I may go for a new iron but for the moment I'm going to give it a go as a stock (old) plane.
Thanks for the help.
Jeff

[Mike Henderson]

I'm fairly certain it's a type 18 and it does have the laminated iron.
I could see it pretty clearly when I was sharpening.
Had it sand-blasted a bit to remove some rust and it looks pretty good.
I may go for a new iron but for the moment I'm going to give it a go as a stock (old) plane.
Thanks for the help.
Jeff
I'm not very familiar with a type 18 - I mainly focus on low knob planes which are about type 11 and earlier - but I'd think that a type 18 would not have a laminated blade. Are you sure it's a type 18?

It should have a kidney shaped hole in the lever cap to be a type 18. If it has a keyhole shaped hole, it's earlier than 18.

Mike

[Tyler Howell]

Count your blessings. Cherish the tools of your grandfather and order a new blade and you will be pleased. I have a #4 my grandfather used and after a tune up and new blade, it is a dream to use. Not bad for a tool over 100 years old.
What E W said:cool: Very good advise.
A Hock blade will make a new plane out of it and the tune up will be just like having your grand dad in the shop with you.

[Jeff Cord]

The only other possibility is a 16.
I know it's not a 17 - the depth adjustment nut is brass and not steel or rubber.
I know it's not an 18 - the tote and knob are stained and not painted black and the knurling on the adjustment knob is parallel and not diagonal.

I'll have to take it apart and get some pics since the key difference between the 16 and the 19 is in the frog receiver and lever cap surface.

I'll post some pics later and hopefully get a difinitive answer (don't want to resort to carbon dating :rolleyes:).

Jeff

[Jeff Cord]

First is the frog receiver.
64965
Now for the rest of the pieces.
64963
The real question is: is the lever cap coarse machined? or is it nickel plated? :confused:
That seems to be the deciding factor.
Jeff

[Steve Clardy]

Follow this chart and it should determine the type.


http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/ascii_dating_chart.html

[Jeff Booth]

I am with EWW and Tyler, I have my Grandfather's plane, traced it back to be from 1906 - 1908 which means it was probably Great Grandfather's before it came on down. I know my Dad used it. I disassembled, lapped the sole and frog and installed a new Hock blade. It really is a great plane for working wood and it feels very good every time I use it thinking about all that rich family history.

J