Dog Holes v.s. T-track?

[glenn bradley]

I've been going back and forth on my dog hole plans for a bench under construction. It's layered MDF with a 9" quick release vise at the front and side. Front vise jaws will be 2" x 4" x 15" beech.
Original plan was three dog holes in each vise jaw with three rows drilled through the bench top front to back and side to side (round dogs). Now I'm starting to think about just insetting some t-track and using wooded stops with t-bolts. This is obviously not a 'classic' design bench, just a workhorse.
Does anyone see a problem with this idea? Anyone laid t-track into a bench top for this purpose? I suppose one is as easy as the other on the labor end of it but the track would give me variable positioning.

[Greg Cole]

Glenn,
I've been kicking this around in my head for awhile too. I have slipped on the Neander slope ahilw ago...which has necessitated need for a Neander style bench..... for now I have been using stop blocks either screwed or clamped to a bench top along with a tail vise for hand planing etc... ideally I will build a bench "someday", uh-huh right. Maybe when my 6 month old LN & LV planes are antiques....

I have thought that some well placed t track in my current bench, hold downs etc would be a very flexible set up for many things not just hand planing.

Interested to see what percolates on this one....

Greg

[James Carmichael]

I've often wondered that myself, Glen, especially as I've got 2 4' Rockler kits sitting around unused.

My only concern might be how much pressure Ttrack screwed into MDF could handle. It could always be epoxied in, but that might make it hard to recover the track if you ever replace the top.

[Tim Lynch]

AND, those kits are currently on sale for $10.99.....

[Randal Stevenson]

I've often wondered that myself, Glen, especially as I've got 2 4' Rockler kits sitting around unused.

My only concern might be how much pressure Ttrack screwed into MDF could handle. It could always be epoxied in, but that might make it hard to recover the track if you ever replace the top.


WIth MDF, I would back it with plywood, or even scrap where the screws went through, so they go all the way through better wood.

[Dan Forman]

Interesting idea, but you might find it a PIA to keep clear of debris.

Dan

[Jim Becker]

There is also the concern that a dog hole provides an absolute, positive "stop". Anything that has a fastener that needs tightened will have some give no matter what. While that wouldn't be an issue in most cases, there may be times it will matter.

And dog holes can be used for things like hold-fasts that are really convenient to have and work with. They are yet another "Neander" accommodation I've come to love.

[glenn bradley]

Ah, as usual; good answers one and all. I did embed some hardwood between layers where the vises attach but did not have t-track in the plan at the time of lamination. Small, long screws would be the solution or I could drill some holes and drop hardwood dowels in the screw positions to minimize MDF breakdown. Epoxying the track would preclude surface repair of some types so I think that is a no-no for me (JMHO).

I don't do a lot of Neander-work (gimp elbow). I think I'll take the initiative and drop a track in some scrap, apply lateral pressure clamping a board and lay into it to check the durability of not only the track but the stop as well. My concern is the comparison of a steel t-bolt holding a block of wood by binding against aluminum v.s. a hardwood or brass dog in a hole drilled in MDF. Several folks have stated they use 3/4" holes in MDF long-term without a problem.

Thanks and I'll post the results of my torture test.

[Jim Becker]

Glenn, maybe the best solution is both the track and some dog holes?

[glenn bradley]

Well that didn't take long. With a 2 1/2" square block supporting the t-bolt tightened down like a stop block, I never even got as far as testing vise pressure. It appears that even planing a board using the t-track/t-bolt/block as a stop was too much in my opinion. Perhaps if the t-track were fully attached via epoxy it would be stronger. The possibility of fouling a track that is epoxied in does not appeal to me. This test combined with the obvious clean out problems a track would present is steering me back to dog holes.

Thanks all.

P.s. Good idea Jim. Maybe using the track more as it is designed would be a useful addition.

[Jim Becker]

Glenn, I forget where, but I have actually seen a tee track used in a bench...possibly for holding down portable tools, etc., much as I use threaded inserts to hold down my Kreg jig and Leigh dovetail system to my miter bench.

[Brian Dormer]

Glenn -

I don't have any hard engineering data - but in my shop, I have t-tracks in my counter tops and dog holes in the bench. While the t-track is a great invention, if I really need to BE SURE that something isn't going to move (say - I'm plaining the edge of a door or chiseling a mortise) I'll go to the bench and use dogs every single time.

Jim's right on the money - Dogs are a "positive stop".

I think that the first time you crank down on one of your vises, you'd rip the t-bolts right out of the track (and send parts flying hither and yon). A vise can exert TONS of force!