Snarking: Zero Tolerance

[Chris Barton]

I am posting this to all those that frequent the Turners Forum. I'm no new comer here and I've had the opportunity to watch this forum evolve over the past couple of years but, lately it's been "devolving." Sadly, it seems to be more of a place for snarky behavior, more precisely, posts that are highly critical, aloof, personal, and "gang-like" in nature. It's often said that bullies get away with this type of behavior because groups are unwilling to stand up and say that it's unacceptable. I'm calling on everyone on this forum to make it their responsibility to adopt a zero tolerance policy for this kind of behavior. If you show that your unwilling to tolerate this poor behavior it will go away and this forum will return to what it's supposed to be, a welcoming, sharing, nurturing environment where we all share a common interest. Please reply to this post to show your support (or lack there of).

Thanks,

[TYLER WOOD]

Agreed, and sorry for the post I placed earlier today! Please acept my apology, I got caugt up. Will not happen again and I hope others join in expressing their concern and support!

[Benjamin Dahl]

thanks Chris, I agree that the snarky posts are a turn off (had to throw the pun in, sorry). I am newer to this forum and appreciate the group knowledge but there are some posts that turn messy and do nothing to improve skills or give me a goal to aim for. Critiques are a good thing but attacks are not.
Ben

[Bernie Weishapl]

Agreed Chris. The reason I joined was because of the helpfulness, knowledge, and the people which I hadn't found on other forums. We all have opinions and our ways of doing things. What works for me may not work for you but don't hammer me for what I do. I hope we can get back on track and do some turning.

[Kim Ford]

Chris, I couldn't agree more. I am a newcomer and read considerably more than I post. I appreciate the honest critque and the supportive attitude. I like to hear different opinions even if I don't agree, but not digs. You are right, it is the responsibility of each member to encourage good behavior and not participate in that which isn't.

Thanks for the reminder and the encouragement. Kim Ford

[Jonathon Spafford]

Thanks so much for starting this thread... I have noticed of late that there is a bit more of this. Didn't know if I just hadn't noticed it previously or if it was getting more prevalent!

Anyway, lets all be friends again and go make some woodchips!

[Gary Herrmann]

Very much agree

[steven carter]

I am a relative newcomer to this forum, but I have been reading almost every post for a couple of months, and have gone back in the posts and have read a considerable amount of them. I must be so new that I am missing the snarky intent. I have not read anything that is obviously malicious, but then again maybe I'm just naive to some of the issues. This forum has been invaluable to me as a new turner, I try to evaluate the critiques of my work and to learn from them. I may not always agree with what someone is saying, but it is my choice to try to adopt ideas or not, and I do not want to discourage opinions about my posts. I can honestly say that every critique I have received has been welcomed, and been given in a positive manner. I can't hope to get better if everyone just tells me I'm doing great if really I'm not. I haven't felt like people are trying to demean me or my work, and feel they are trying to help me, and I appreciate it. I tell people all the time about this great spot for learning, and viewing work that inspires me to try do the same kind of work. If this forum has devolved, then it must have really been something before, because I think it is great!!!

On the other hand, if you are one of the people who critique to hurt someone or demean someone, you should be ashamed. There are few things in life that are as noble as good people giving of their time and talents to help others. If you use this forum for personal vendetta, you demean yourself. To all that have and continue to help me, again I say thanks.

Steve Carter

[Christopher K. Hartley]

Chris, sad to say but you have hit the nail on the head. I agree with you completely and I should have spoken up myself but this time, for whatever reason, I chose to withdraw and just hang back. That is certainly not my nature and I am ashamed for allowing myself to do it. I embraced this forum over a year and a half ago because it was not like the others where the behavior you speak of is common practice. I do not know what the trigger was for you to stand up with courage but thank you for your leadership. Count me as standing with you!

[Rich Stewart]

I, too, am at a loss here as I have never heard any 'snarking' and I read this EVERY day. Other than Andy getting in Stu's butt for posting links and that one feller telling Brad Hart he was "full of crap", I have never heard a negative word here. So, although I don't really know what you are talking about, I agree with what you are saying.

[TYLER WOOD]

I think he is in reference to the recent rash of dna arguments and other touchy subjects on techniques. A few of us have got a little snippy in some of these spats, me included (read appology above). Mostly it has been a few individuals, but when we start letting it get out of control it can spread. It can become the norm on a forum quickly if allowed to. As for critiques and just normal behavior I have not seen the snarking, only is arguemtns over prefered techniques.

[Belinda Barfield]

Chris,

I don't actually post on the Turner's Forum, but I do view/read most pics/posts. I too have noticed a decidely negative undertone to the Creek recently. While we are all, of course, entitled to speak our opinions, this negativity benefits no one. It too easy to be judgmental - especially in a situation where we can feel "anonymous". It is also easy to believe you know someone, when you really don't. As they say "familiarty breeds contempt" - but it doesn't have to. I support you in your efforts to clean up the Creek.

[Chris Barton]

Thanks for your posts so far. I was not referencing any one person or single thread. If you haven't noticed it then there isn't a need to look for it. I'm not going to start turning over rocks here, that's just a different form of snarky behavior. For most of us I think it's like the classic definition of pornography; "I know it when I see it." Let's just remember to show folks that's not how we behave around these parts.

[Lee DeRaud]

Hmmm....

1. Chris thinks the quality of posts here has gone down lately,
and
2. somebody mentioned (in a PM) that I haven't been posting much lately.

Probably just a coincidence. :D :cool:

[Belinda Barfield]

Lee,

I, for one, have missed your posts. You usually give me a good laugh and make me think about things in a different way.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Hmmm....

1. Chris thinks the quality of posts here has gone down lately,
and
2. somebody mentioned (in a PM) that I haven't been posting much lately.

Probably just a coincidence. :D :cool:

Lee you old scoundrel where have ya been??:D :rolleyes: :cool: ;)

[Brian Brown]

Stevens response is nearly word for word what I would have written. I have learned so much, and rarely read anything negative. That's why I like SMC so much

Brian

[Keith Burns]

Chris, in my eyes the only "snarking" as you call it I've seen is directed toward one person and we know who that is. Should we allow someone to put out dangerous information that can hurt someone ? I don't think so. Should the person in question be allowed to talk down to others, call them lazy, tell them they don't know what they are doing without rebutal ? I don't think so. The person in question has started all of the conflicts and continues to do so. I for one can't set by and say nothing, especially when that person cloakes himself behind a fake name. The only other problem areas have been resolved as they should have. This is not a perfect world but the Creek has always been a safe haven and I believe it will continue to be one. There has never been a "snark" made toward anyones turning ability nor their work on the Creek. If that ever happens believe me, I will stand up and fight.

[Mark Pruitt]

Chris, in my eyes the only "snarking" as you call it I've seen is directed toward one person and we know who that is. Should we allow someone to put out dangerous information that can hurt someone ? I don't think so. Should the person in question be allowed to talk down to others, call them lazy, tell them they don't know what they are doing without rebutal ? I don't think so. The person in question has started all of the conflicts and continues to do so. I for one can't set by and say nothing, especially when that person cloakes himself behind a fake name. The only other problem areas have been resolved as they should have. This is not a perfect world but the Creek has always been a safe haven and I believe it will continue to be one. There has never been a "snark" made toward anyones turning ability nor their work on the Creek. If that ever happens believe me, I will stand up and fight.
Chris,
I am aware of some of what has transpired that you are referring to. There have indeed been some strong debates taking place recently. But I have to appeal to some ancient words of wisdom which say "To everything there is a season." I do not enjoy confrontation. I do not get any meaningful gratification from it. There is, however, a time for it, and Keith has spoken very well about the reasons why this has been such a time.

It is one thing for two people to disagree about methods or practices, and most of the time it's OK for people to agree to disagree. It is another thing entirely for one individual to decry the methods or practices of another as invalid, and everyone here knows that the person to whom Keith refers has done precisely that, time and time again. That behavior too should be subject to zero tolerance.

Equally subject to zero tolerance should be the advocating of a practice which is dangerous or even potentially fatal. Here again, the person to whom Keith refers has done that, and has been called on the carpet for it by many Creekers, including some in particular who have earned international respect by virtue of their contributions to woodturning.

So essentially, Chris, I agree with you that a climate of confrontation does not yield a forum that draws its members back again and again with magnetic strength. And I too wish for this forum to not morph into such a climate. As a physician, you would surely find objectionable the behavior of a man who stands outside your office selling cigarettes to your patients. Equally objectionable is the behavior of someone who enters this forum pretending to know everything, who offers not simply different opinions but has the audacity to deny the validity of something when presented with clear evidence of its validity.

[Tom Sherman]

Chris, I too can appreciate your concern, the reason I joined the Creek in the first place was to glean some knowledge from those more experienced than my self and to be able to relax and enjoy the comaraderie of folks that share similiar interests. I feel that there is enough stress in our everyday lives and we don't need to look for more.

[Chris Barton]

Hmmm....

1. Chris thinks the quality of posts here has gone down lately,
and
2. somebody mentioned (in a PM) that I haven't been posting much lately.

Probably just a coincidence. :D :cool:

Your good, you have a gift my friend.:p

[Christopher K. Hartley]

I still consider myself a nubie in many respects and while steering someone new off track in a dangerous way is of concern, it can be addressed without vindictiveness. We must also remember that people who speak with true authority on any subject also project that authority to the listener who then feels the credibility of those words. People who have no authority project a recognizable void of authority and credibility. To put it very simply, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if a balloon is filled with hot air. Even nubies can discern nonsense when they hear it. Read between the lines and hear with the heart. It then becomes a simple matter to scratch off what is of no avail. By doing that, we avoid creating a Soap Opera on the NG.:)

[Curt Fuller]

"Snarking", I've always had a different definition of that. I have a 14 year old golden retriever that has had seasonal allergies since he was a pup. This time of year he starts making a half sneeze half bark sound that my wife started calling "snarking" years ago. When I saw this thread I thought " Holy Crap, someone else has a snarking dog.:)

[John Shuk]

I haven't noticed it either. I really do take seriously our responsibility to preserve the good will I find here. I often bite my tongue and erase something I've typed out without submitting it. Is it that important for me to be right? Thats what I usually ask myself.

[Kaptan J.W. Meek]

I dunno.. Obviously there have been a few posts with a little more teeth than I've seen.. I've only been on a few months, but I considered this the most tame, nearly sterile forum I belong too!.. I have other hobbies, and the forums for those sites, while filled with good information, are often profane and certainly juvenile. It's the quality and the maturity of the people your dealing with.. I'll stand on the side of clean, supportive, fun, helpful, constructive, if not sterile postings... Peace and harmony are the chief strengths and support of all well regulated institutions.

[John Chandler]

Chris,
I agree with you and I want this forum to remain the great forum it is. I have read others and I do have not found another forum near the quality of this - quality of advice and of work displayed. Mainly, it is a pleasant place to come to for either advice or when I just want to get away for a while, if you know what I mean. Along with good members, I think having good, and active, moderators help keep this a good place. Thank you for starting this thread - may it serve as a reminder to all of us so we won't let something we like slip away slowly.

[Shane Whitlock]

When I first started playing on the lathe I posted on several turning sites, now I pretty much just use this one.
Its full of wonderful turnings and people, who are always willing to help. When I see a post taking a turn for the worse I just don't read, hit the back button and take a look at all the other great posts.

Keep Smiling :D
Shane Whitlock

[Corey Hallagan]

I agree with Chris, just not the same anymore. I guess a wise person told me once .... "All things evolve and this will as well I am sure." Man who was that guy :) I check in from time to time but I just don't read here much anymore.

Corey

[Jim Bell]

Personally I find the term "zero tolerance" offensive. In my eyes it indicates someone or a group is too ignorant, stupid or lazy to work through a situation themselves. A higher power must dictate standards and thoughts to others. This is pretty much an open forum, with guidelines of decency and respect. Be Safe!

[Lee DeRaud]

Personally I find the term "zero tolerance" offensive. In my eyes it indicates someone or a group is too ignorant, stupid or lazy to work through a situation themselves.As usually applied, what that phrase says to me is, "We don't need to think: we have a Policy."

But I don't think that's what's happening here...at least I certainly hope not.

[Rob Bourgeois]

You know this post is fine and good for whats its intended...BUT on the other hand the "gang-like" behavior may stop dangerous or wrong info from getting out and hurting someone. Just because a group of people disagree with a post or a technique doesn't make it wrong as your "gang-like" idea suggests. Usually the majority is right....

Its also not good to have personal axes to grind...something which we all know happens. Chris you may be guilty of that too( not saying you are BUT you know where I am coming from). Every one has their own way of doing things and some of those ideas are picked up by others and I guess that could lead to an apparent gang attitude. But we are all turners so that in itself is a gang.

[Martin Braun]

Let's also keep in mind that the recent 'snarking' is brought upon by someone with a long-term agenda. This has not been just a Sawmill Creek Turner's forum phenomena. Woodnet, the AAW forum (and probably others I'm not aware of) have seen the same debates, similar snarky comments, etc. repeated over and over. Some moderators have dealt with it swiftly, other's have let it ride. I thank the moderators at Sawmill Creek for addressing this sooner rather than later, since the absence of this up until now was something that motivated me to join & participate in this forum.

[Chris Barton]

You know this post is fine and good for whats its intended...BUT on the other hand the "gang-like" behavior may stop dangerous or wrong info from getting out and hurting someone. Just because a group of people disagree with a post or a technique doesn't make it wrong as your "gang-like" idea suggests. Usually the majority is right....


I agree about the majority assumption and it appears they have spoken regarding this. However, it is reassuring that a gang is out there looking out for our safety...:)

[Jim Becker]

Folks, the community is only as strong as the active members--when you see a problem report it through the right channels rather than throwing fuel onto a fire. The moderators and admins do work hard to keep things on an even keel...you may not even be aware of some of the frankly proactive "adjustments" that get made--there have been several this week, even. Let's get back to talking about and drooling over the fine work that everyone does...

[Dennis Peacock]

Let's please keep this under control here. It's important that we all get back to turning or working with wood, instead of "working with words". Let's get community back onto this forum and move on.

[Rick Smith]

My 2 cents?

(A) If it involves something I might do WITH THE LATHE RUNNING OR A CHAINSAW IN MY HANDS, please stay courteous and to the point, because THAT is important!

(B) If it involves something I might do with THE LATHE OFF (like soaking methods, segemented layup, etc.) – debate, castigate, cogitate, ruminate, or just plain yak all you want.

You guys are all an EXCELLENT source of information, as well as good a group forum as I have ever used. I find that sometimes, in the heat of the argument, some very plain language concerning a particular technique or method comes to light. All the pussy-footing around with politeness and political correctness (while really cozy) is all well and good for item B above, but my concern is with A.