May I vent a little bit?

[Dan Mages]

I am about 99% done with the work on my house. There are some minor details that add up and will take a couple of days to complete. LOML and my father have been over and helping me with a lot of the work. At the same time, I have been pressured into doing things I would normally not accept. Here are a few things that come up...

"It's good enough for the basement/garage/laundry room"
Sorry, but I believe in doing the abosulte best work and expect the best results possible given my skill level, regardless of where the work is being done. Why should drywall defects be left untouched in the lower level family room? (attached and direct access to the basement. This is a raised ranch)

"Good enough for government work"
Basically saying that I can accept a lower standard. I will work to a standard that I am comfortable and capable of.

"You will not be living here much longer."
Sorry, but I don't care how much longer I will be living here. At the end of the day, I still have to look at the work and have pride in the work that I done. I am not going to cut corners, do shoddy work or leave problems for the next home owner just to get the job done. For example. They want me to skip putting a coat or two of poly on trim work in a couple of rooms as a measure to cut corners.

"They do it on (insert house flipping show name here)"
Again, sorry, but those shows do work to the lowest grade possible with the cheapest materials and low skilled labour. I have higher expectations than that.

Now granted, I have been working non stop on this house for the past 6-8 months so I can get it ready for sale before my wedding in 13 days, so my perspective is completely shot. But am I out of line on some of this stuff?


Thanks for listening and allowing me to rant. Now back to your normally scheduled programming.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with the principles you stand by, Dan. Anything worth doing is worth doing the best you can on...sometimes that even lets you learn something!

[Dennis Peacock]

Dan,

I feel your pain buddy. When building my house in Alabama several years ago, I learned how much "perfection" I could do without in order to get the house done so we could move in. "Very close" got to be good enough over "perfect". We were happy with moving in after working day and night for 4 months and spending money like it was water pouring out of a firehose.

IMHO, it doesn't have to be "perfect"....it just needs to be acceptable according to your standards of work. I've fought a "lot" with my perfectionism and the LOML has helped me with that part of my personality.

[Ed Falis]

I'm with Dennis. We have a saying here at work: "don't let the best be the enemy of the good". It's a matter of tradeoffs - which of course only you can weigh with your other stakeholders. I wasn't sure when reading your message whether those comments were coming from your family or people you had working for you. I suspect the former. With an overriding goal of getting the house on the market by a specific deadline that was coming up, I can see how their perspective might be a little different than your own about how much energy and time to invest.

And no, you're not at all out of line feeling the way you do - your feelings are your compass. Good Luck and congrats on the wedding.

[Ken Garlock]

Dan, as some (in)famous politician once said, 'I feel your pain.' Yes, 'good enough' is something you often hear.

You are the final word on what you consider to be a quality product, but I am sure your wife to be has a good share of input. (Personally, I would not regard dinged dry wall to be a quality product.) Since you plan to sell the house right a way, you need to think about what a prospective buyer will want to see in a house.

To me a quality product is something that meets or exceeds the customers expectations. We are back to what the buyer thinks. I would take a weekend day to go around the neighborhood and look for open houses, and learn what people are expecting in a house of the age and size of yours.

You didn't say if you are going through a real estate agent, or selling it your self. To me, the agent is worth the 7% commission. If you are using an agent, they will have opinions worth considering.

In the end, you want to market a perceived quality product, and that might not include things that you consider important. The more input you can get, the better. Remember, it is not about what you think, it is what the buyer thinks.

[Al Willits]

Was once told, "if ya want something done right, do it yourself, if you can't do it and it needs to be subbed out, it'll get done as right as much your willing to pay"

Or..never hire anybody that's any less anal/perfectionist than you.

Have to admit I spent a bit less time on the wife's trelis, than I will on her kitchen cabinets, some might say that's sloppy workmanship, some might say the workmanship fits the job...we each get to decide.

Not happy with whats being done, change it.
Its not a right or wrong deal, its about your choice. imho

Al

[Dan Mages]

To me a quality product is something that meets or exceeds the customers expectations. We are back to what the buyer thinks. I would take a weekend day to go around the neighborhood and look for open houses, and learn what people are expecting in a house of the age and size of yours.



I bought the house as a handyman special. It was the only way I could afford one. I have spent the past 4+ years and most of my disposable income fixing up the house with the finest materials. It is in far, far, better shape than anything else for sale in the neighborhood.

So here is the rub. Do I meet or exceed the expectations of an ignorant buyer who has never done any home improvement work and will buy the house at face value, or a buyer with experience in these matters who will notice the imperfections?

And yes, I am going through an agent.

Dan

[Ed Falis]

How many of the latter do you think are out there, Dan? I suspect not all that many. I also suspect that even with compromises you're going to be offering superior value given your quality ethic.

[Jim Becker]

...fixing up the house with the finest materials. It is in far, far, better shape than anything else for sale in the neighborhood.

The one concern might be if the rest of the neighborhood could affect the payback from using the finest materials given the current real estate market. My previous comments were largely focused on workmanship...where I do believe it's good to strive for the best quality. But installing marble in a distinctly "self-stick tile" neighborhood (exaggeration, obviously...) isn't necessarily the best investment.

[Dan Mages]

The one concern might be if the rest of the neighborhood could affect the payback from using the finest materials given the current real estate market. My previous comments were largely focused on workmanship...where I do believe it's good to strive for the best quality. But installing marble in a distinctly "self-stick tile" neighborhood (exaggeration, obviously...) isn't necessarily the best investment.

Very true Jim. But selling the house so quickly was not a consideration when I started these projects. Post hoc ergo proctor hoc.

Regarding the real estate market. It is surprisingly strong in my area. Most houses sell within 2-3 months in my area.

Dan

[Greg Cole]

Hey Dan,
I had my father help me with a complete exterior remodel last year.... you wouldn't believe how many times he looked right at me and said "you don't have to be so damn fussy", "that's good enough".... "looks good to me"... "the caulk will fill that".. etc. Got to the point where he'd start to say "it"... and all I had to do was return "the glare" I got from him for years as a mischevious kid! HA.
I too do all but 100% of everything myself and I set my standards very high (I like to look at my work & think it's as good as I'd have paid for or better). Even if I am doing "it" for the first time, I still expect I am smart enough to think it through before doing "it" and I expect satisfactory results. If my Quality Control guy (me) doesn't like the end result.. I get a do over.:cool:
My high expectations also limit me wanting "help". I hate to gripe about something someone offers to do on their free time, but if it's not up to my snuff... I'll fix it when the help leaves. If I could hold 16 boards and nail them at the same time, I'd not need help...LOl
In regards to higher end materials... I find I will step up a notch or 2 on materials... not paying labor etc makes that part alot easier. But there is a fine line about upgrading materials and going overboard (ala Jim's example)
I sense much of the stress for you is demands on your time... you can only do so much so fast & do it right. I'd rather put something off short time if it means getting it done right (the first time).
Best of luck,

Greg

[Jude Kingery]

Hey Dan,

Is renting it out an option? Might not be for you; but just something to consider - our renter has done some fine cabinet work for us, he recently rebuilt the porch. Very nice job. Won't let me pay him!!! So of course we'll pay for materials and not jack the rent up, been the same three years and as long as he and we are satisfied, then so be it. Just a thought is all. Jude

[Richard M. Wolfe]

The problem with "good enough".

It snowballs.

You make something and something's a little off but it will work, so it's "good enough". You get by with it OK so the next project just has to be "good enough" too, but the problem is it turns out to be not as "good enough" as the last one.

"Good enough" isn't a project but a frame of mind.....and a slippery slope.

[Greg Cole]

My mother had a Charles Osgood clipping from one of his Sunday morning monologues on her fridge for years... might still be there.
it was to tha affect that we all become complaced with "pretty good". When asked how are you today, you always hear the middle of the road "pretty good"... how was dinner, again "pretty good". How are your kids grades, "pretty good".... on & on.
In summation Mr Osgood said it very well as his closing is in affect that...
"PRETTY GOOD IS IN FACT.... PRETTY BAD".

Oh yeah, the other thing on her fridge that I will never forget is...
"Dull women live in imaculate houses".:D

[Glenn Clabo]

It's now called "normalization of deviance". The term is best illustrated by the loss of the space shuttles. People got used to the "nothing has happened yet" way of thinking. If you do a google search you'll see many articles about it. We fight it in my line of work...more and more...because of the funding issues we are facing.

[Jeffrey Fusaro]

dan--

i feel your pain.

i am my own harshest critic. i know where every flaw is in everything i do.

fortunately, my own personal "good enough" usually results in "wow" from observers. and, that's also why i VERY RARELY pay anyone to do anything for me.

having high standards can make things hard on oneself. but, the rewards usually justify the effort.

keeping things in perspective can be difficult for me. i have to remind myself that i have two very valuable, but limited resources - time and money. and, i have to constantly ask myself how much of each is justified for the work being performed.

it sounds kinda corny, but i always liked the expression, "aim for perfection. achieve excellence."

regrading glenn's observation - we all expect the folks at boeing and nasa to get it right 100% of the time because of the cost of them getting right only 99.9% of the time.

regarding a home improvement project - as long as safety isn't compromised, i'm not so sure that the same level of scrutiny need apply to the craftsmanship.

[Lee Schierer]

There are differing levels of what is right and what is perfectionist and it depends upon what you are making. If you are making an heirloom piece then the joints and fit should be absolutely as good as you can get ehm. However, you done't havce to achieve the same degree when building a house or stable. If I'm making a fence having 1/8" gaps between board probably is acceptable whereas in a table top they probably wouldn't be. In the long run you have to balance the level of perfectionism aganst the time and money investment being made. If you want to have every joint perfect just be prepared for the impact on time and cost. You don't need the same level of care for building framing for a house that you need for making frames for a dresser.

Decide your own acceptable levels for every task and then don't complain when the job takes too long or costs too much. :D

[Chris Friesen]

"It's good enough for the basement/garage/laundry room"
Sorry, but I believe in doing the abosulte best work and expect the best results possible given my skill level, regardless of where the work is being done.

While I understand your desire to do everything perfectly, I also think that there is such a thing as an appropriate amount of effort.

The areas that you mention are places that most people consider to be "utility" spaces. That is, they don't expect them to be up to the same standards as the rest of the house because they tend to see hard use and so will get damaged in the normal course of time.

There are standards that should be upheld on any work but the level of fit-and-finish that is appropriate in a typical garage is very different from, say, a custom kitchen.

[Scott Loven]

I would not spend as much time building cabinets for my garage as I would for my Kitchen.
I would put less then perfect trim on the inside of a closet that I wouldn't put in a highly visible location.
I wouldn't worry about a 2*4 that was cut 1/8 to short on a wall that I was framing...............
I have been working on my house for the past 10 years and do a job that I think anyone would be happy with. I am in no hurry and I enjoy it. If I did it for a living I would have to get faster or starve!

[Dennis Peacock]

If I did it for a living I would have to get faster or starve!

Hey..!!!! I resemble that remark. :rolleyes: :D

[Fred Voorhees]

I have on occasion driven my younger brother nuts with my attention to the "little details". I will admit that I try "to hard" on some things that simply do not need such attention. But heck, that's the way I usually try to be. I believe his phrase was .."this is carpentry, not woodworking."

[Dan Mages]

The problem with "good enough".

It snowballs.

You make something and something's a little off but it will work, so it's "good enough". You get by with it OK so the next project just has to be "good enough" too, but the problem is it turns out to be not as "good enough" as the last one.

"Good enough" isn't a project but a frame of mind.....and a slippery slope.

Maybe next time she asks for a nice night out, I will take her to McDonalds... Its good enough. :rolleyes:

Dan