Tenon and Dovetail saws???? Lie Neilsen vs. Adria??

[Mark Singer]

Hi,
I am about ready to spent some serious change on a couple of fine saws. Caan anyone compare the Adria saws to Lie Neisen Independence.
Dovetail and Tenon... I have doing good with my Dozuki's and a Pax...I think the change will help?
Mark

[Pam Niedermayer]

Guess I don't understand. If you've been doing good with dozuki, in what direction do you expect new saws to help? What makes you suspect that Adria or LN will help you get better?

Pam

[Mark Singer]

Pam,
In certain woods I could use a stiffer blade. I am sure it is easier to keep a Adria square w/ the board when cutting dovetails. I am just trying to crank it up a notch which is possible...my eyes are still good.
Mark

[Ryan Singer]

Hmmm. so what are you going to be making dad?

[Mark Singer]

Hi Ryan,
I will cut wood , sand it glue it, ron thru the planer ,
bandsaw, chisel it , look at it ....put it in the fireplace and stay warm...
Mark

[Lloyd Robins]

I just got Adria's dovetail saw and a small crosscut tenon saw. They are great! They fit my hand well and make nice straight cuts. They are sharpened by Tom Law. I highly recommend them. Bob Marino ( chime in Bob) did a personal test on LN and Adria recently. I believe that he kept the Adria's. Of course others seem to prefer the LN's. I believe that they are both great saws. So, your choice might come down to do you like bubinga or curly maple. What dozuki are you using? Good Luck.

Lloyd

P.S. Someone said that Spehar is making pretty good saws also.

[Mark Singer]

Lloyd,
Thanks that is helpful...I just sent Bob an email...its his turn to help me. The Adria looks pretty nice so far.

I am using many saws from Tashiro They are inexpensive and blades can be replaced. I also have a Lee Valley dozuki.
Here is the link: http://www.tashirohardware.com/
Mark

[Bob Marino]

Mark,

Both the Adria and LN are excellent saws, more similar than different. The Adrias have a very, very, slightly thinner kerf. I had the chance to use both brands in the rip and crosscut versions and both rip saws were just about interchangable, but the crosscut saws were different. The Adria was much smoother, faster and even made a different sound sawing tha wood. Now this was way unscientific as I only used oak and qswo, but thought strongly enough about it to send the LN's back (at a 10% restocking fee). :eek:
I also was a bit dissapointed in the rosewood (extra $$) handles on the LN's. I was expecting more of a reddish brown and got what seemed to me to be a walnut colored handle, but hey, maybe the next guy prefers that color. The Adrias have Bubinga handles, which are nicer looking at least to my eye, but again a very subjective opinion.


Bob

[Steven Wilson]

I haven't used the Adria saws but I have 5 of the LN's and they're excellent. I had one LN that wasn't quite up to snuff but a simple reset cured it

[Martin Shupe]

I bought the Adria, simply because the blade was a little taller, and I thought I might someday use it to do tenons. I am very happy with it.

I am planning to get an Adria crosscut to match.

[Alan Turner]

My two favorite tenon saws are pre WWII Disstons (14 x 4 and 2 x 10), and I think they are every bit as good as the new and expensive saws. I pick them up for about $35 or so, and then $10 - $25 spent with Tom Law, and they are fabulous.
I spent a morning with him several months ago, and now file my own rip saws, but will still send the crosscuts to him.
I say this, having not used the Adria or L-N tenon saws, although I do have a LN dovetail saw, straight handle, which I like very much. I sent it to Tom Law for sharpening, and when it came back, it was a much better saw than when new.
When I was down to see him, we examined a new Pax, which I had brought to him from a friend, and with his guidance, one could pretty easily see that the base of the gullets contained distorted metal, which was the result of machine setting of the teeth. This put a sort of fat chunk right where there should have been clearance. He uses both a Stanley 42, and a Disston, for hand setting. I have an old 42, and it is just fine.
Just another approach to tooling up.
Alan

[Mark Singer]

Alan,
Thanks..Very helpful. I actually have a couple of Disstons ....I am not sure they are pre WWII. Maybe I'll send the better one to Tom Law and see how I like it. Can you give me his address? This is an example of how helpful the SMC can be!
Mark

[Alan Turner]

Tom Law (No email)
(301)824-5223.
62 West Water Street,
Smithsburg, Maryland 21783

A pre-WWII Disston will have an apple handle; one later will be beech. Tom will sharpen, set, retooth, change the TPI, de-rust with electrolysis. His prices are quite reasonable. He told me that as a young man, he was on a 20 man carpentery crew, and he was the saw filer for the whole crew. To watch him work is a real pleasure. He is a gentleman in all respects. Send him a saw, give instruction, and he will do it, and send it back to you with a piece of masking tape on the blade, with prices, and an occassional comment. Be sure to look at his postage cost so that also can be paid. And tell him to file as a rip or crosscut. He did a 26" Disston panel saw for me, in crosscut, and one cannot believe how quicly it will cut a board. I had some very thick cherry, too large to get into the basement (17'4" long, 27-34" wide, a 3 board flitch). I cut the first 2" with a powersaw, and finished the last inch with the panel saw, just about as quickly. I then picked up a 5 point rip saw, with the hole for the second hand, and refiled it. Again, the speed and ease is remarkable. He has a video out on filing.
While I was there, I also had an Adkins, and he noted that the steel on the Atkins is a bit harder than on the Disston, and thus a bit more difficult to file.

[Mark Singer]

Alan,
Do you suppose Tom has some vintage saws he might tune-up and sell laying around? I guess I can ask him.
Mark

[Alan Turner]

I have never bought saws from him, but you sure can ask. I don't think I would call on a Sunday, however.

[Mark Singer]

Thanks Alan,
No never on Sunday..no rush
Mark

[Scott Quesnelle]

I haven't bought any saws from him but he does indeed sell some of the saws that he acquires from various dealers and things. Have heard nothing but good things about saws people have bought from him.

Scott

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam,
In certain woods I could use a stiffer blade. I am sure it is easier to keep a Adria square w/ the board when cutting dovetails. I am just trying to crank it up a notch which is possible...my eyes are still good.
Mark

Yes, you'll need a thicker, thus stiffer, blade if you'll be sawing on the push, which is what you do with western saws. The reason the dozuki are thinner, thus much less kerf, is that you pull them. Maybe you'd need a better dozuki? Which one(s) are you using now?

Pam

[Tom Scott]

I have the LN dovetail and carcass saws. They cut beautifully, track straight, and are an absolute pleasure to use. These are my go-to saws when I am doing fine joinery. I can't compare to the Adrias, but from everything I've read, you can't go wrong with either.

I have also acquired 3 older Disstons (after I already had the L-N's), which I sent off to Tom Law for jointing, re-setting and sharpening. 1 is a smaller 10" DT saw (filed rip), one is a slightly larger 12" saw that I had him file rip to use for larger tenons and such, and one is a 14" filed crosscut that I keep on the bench to use as a more general cutoff saw with a bench hook. All of the saws sent to TL came back in excellent shape and probably cut as well as the L-N's. He even dated the saws for me (2 were cir. 1875, and the other cir 1915), which I didn't ask him to so, but it's nice to now know. If you have some old saws, I would definitely recommend sending them off to get them in working condition even if you end up buying new. And yes, he does usually have some saws on hand that you can buy directly from him. give him a call to see what he has...it will save you buying from another source and then sending them to him.

Tom

[Mark Singer]

Tom,
Very helpful...really good info...I think I will buy a new LN or Adria...and buy a old Disston from Tom..
I also have an old Disston tenon say I can send him...
Thanks

[Mark Singer]

Pam,
I have excellent Japanese saws...It is a great system because the blades are interchangable...I have been using these and other Dozuki's for years including some very expensive ones....I really don't need to change I just want a very good basis for comparison. Here is the link: try some of the fine blades you will love them!
http://www.tashirohardware.com/
Mark

Ps: read the "critical Acclaim" on the website

[Pam Niedermayer]

Thanks, Mark, I've been using a LV professional dozuki, which is very good, probably don't need to go beyond it except for the replaceable blade/non-resharpenable blades. I tried a LN straight handled dovetail a couple of months ago, very fast, nice saw; but the kerf's too thick. Also have a Tyzack back/tenon saw that I bought new 22 years ago, it was just wonderful for dovetails, first ones were perfect; but compared to the dozuki, the kerf's too thick. I also tried a Danish bow saw for dovetails, a la Frid, but need more practice.

Last week I purchased a kaneharu rip dozuki from Harrleson (japanesetools.com), it's a beauty, and resharpenable, very stiff, wonderful saw.

My point, dovetail cutting isn't all that demanding, most anything will do that's small and stiff, rip/crosscut doesn't even matter all that much.

Pam

[Mark Singer]

Alan,
You were right again! I talked with Tom Law today and the older saws are the best! So I'm looking for an 8" dovetail and he gave me a source....right now there are none available...but he will call me.
Mark

[Mark Singer]

Pam,
Thanks for your help. Was your Tyzack a vintage one or newer? I am starting to shop the old ones after tlhing to Tom Law. My Dozuki's are great in most woods. It is nice to have a variety.
Mark

[Pam Niedermayer]

It's a newer Tyzack, 22 years old. If I were a better person, the Tyzack would have been sold to someone who would use it long ago, same with the Disston crosscut. The dozuki are perfect for me, there aren't all that many ways to saw dovetails, so I don't need dovetail saws in triplicate.

Pam

[Alan Turner]

I was told, perhaps by Tom Law, that this. co. closed in 1985, but made very good saws. I have my father's 8", now filed rip, but rarely use it. I think he got it in 1979 or 1980, to make a cradle with dovetails for my first son. Too small for my preferred stroke. But, it is brass backed, looks great, and given the heritage, I won't be disposing of it, of course.
Alan

[Davy Barr]

I recently got a dovetail saw from Vlad Spehar and am quite pleased with it. I have no experience with the LN or Adria, but it's hard to beat Vlad's prices and it cuts like a dream. The handle is truly custom made for my hand - he had me send my height and middle finger length - and he will make it out of several different woods depending on what he has on hand. It comes standard with a cherry handle, I think, but mine is bubinga. Just a satisfied customer.

[Mark Singer]

Davy,
Excellent looking saw. Can you give me a link or contact info. for Mr Sephar?
Thanks,
Mark

[Glenn Clabo]

Here ya go Mark...
http://www.spehar-toolworks.com/

[Mark Singer]

Glenn,
Do you have one or have used one...I am looking for a real user and if it looks good great! I don' want a wall hanger. Any advice is appreciated
Mark

[Mark Singer]

Dave,
What was the cost of that saw...if I might ask?
Thanks for the tip.
Mark

[Glenn Clabo]

Mark,
No I don't have one...just have it on the list.

[Davy Barr]

Dave,
What was the cost of that saw...if I might ask?
Thanks for the tip.
Mark
Mine cost $102 shipping and all with the bubinga handle. However, I got a little bit of a discount because the bubinga had some VERY small worm holes in it. His regular price for the cherry handled version is $80 plus $12 shipping. This is in US funds. That's at least $20 cheaper than the Adria or LN. I think he normally charges $15 more for exotic wood handles. I have only used mine a few times for practice dovetails and it works like a charm. As I said, I've never used the LN or Adria, so no way for me to compare. I believe one difference between this and the LN/Adria is that the brass is two pieces riveted onto the blade as opposed to one piece bent around the blade. IMO this makes no difference either functionally or aesthetically. Vlad is one of the newer, lesser known toolmakers out there and I really like his stuff. I reckon the stuff will begin to go up in price as soon as his name gets out more. He's very good about answering e-mails and corresponding as well, not to mention being QUITE quick in making the saw and sending it out.

[Doug Littlejohn]

Thanks for posting Vlad's site. I've been watching and hearing aobut him for a couple of years now but couldn't find out the how's, why's and wherefor's.

Now I can go look and hopefully order!!

THanks.

BTW, neat thread.

[lowell holmes]

Is Adria still in business? I remember they were good saws, equal to the LN dovetail saw.

[Chris Hachet]

I think Adria went out, you might find one used.

[lowell holmes]

I have no desire for another dovetail saw, i was just wondering. I like my Lie Nielsen saw.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

Adria is indeed finished, sometime last year.

[Derek Cohen]

I was very saddened to recently discover the passing of Mark Singer, who started this thread. He was one of the doyens of this forum some years ago - a wonderful woodworker, fantastic craftsman, ultimate gentleman, and good friend to all of us. He was a leading architect in his area of California and - that rare breed - one who was capable (and would) build furniture for the home he designed. I have missed him around here for a long time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Hachet]

I have no desire for another dovetail saw, i was just wondering. I like my Lie Nielsen saw.


Actually I own Bontz and Bad axe saws and...my LN Dovetails aw is indeed one of my favorites.

[Randy Karst]

For what its worth I think Adria's demise, at least in part, was due to a lack service and support. You had to send your saw to someone else if you wanted it professional sharpened or repaired-not a good business model in my mind. FYI: I have both an Adria dovetail saw and an LN - I much prefer the LN.

[Stephen Rosenthal]

I have a Bad Axe tenon and sash and an Adria dovetail. It's okay, but I'm seriously considering selling it and getting a Bad Axe Stiletto dovetail. Love LN planes, never liked their saws.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Great old thread! Sorry to hear about Mark, and nice to see many names of days long passed.

I think this thread was the one that prompted me to buy an Adria, and I still have it, somewhere! Nice, well made saw, but never quite fit my hand correctly. I do remember for service, it had to be sent to Steve Cooke, has also passed years ago.

The other name that came up early in the thread was Tom Law. He also passed, maybe five, six years ago. Prior to this thread, I was having Tom sharpen saws for me. He quit a few years later, but sold saws he rehabbed, for next to nothing. What is interesting is that his widow was still selling off rehabbed saws at the 2016 Patina gathering! In speaking to her, though, she said she doubted to be there this year. Prices were still dirt cheap (I picked up a Disston #16 for $40, sharp). Online dealers were buying up the saws and I've seen one have the saws listed for 4 and 5 times the purchase price. If anyone here has viewed Tom's video, you may remember the saw sharpened to a point, with little of the plate left. I actually have that saw! Unfortunately, so little of the plate depth is left, that the saw is very delicate, prone to bending. It is more a display curio to sentimentally honor a friend from years ago. Someday it will be found and tossed.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Eddie Sirotek of Adria closed because he was in retirement and the sawmaking was a side business. It finally got to be too much for him and he gave a good bit of notice before he shut down. As for the sharpening, Eddie was of the old school and Old Tools List and like many of us believed that you should be able to sharpen your own saws. For many years he was the only choice of maker other than Independence/Lie-Nielsen. With the increased interest in hand tools we now have a much larger number of top end makers. I would refer to the last 10-15 years as the second golden age of hand tools.