Kitchen Cabinets - Best Practices

[Aaron Hamilton]

I'm about to dive headfirst into the biggest project of my life. Building over 50 feet of kitchen cabinets. I've chosen a style, paint (acrylic spray), the material (BB ply + soft maple + beadboard + MDF + laminate top) and I want them to be faceframed. But...I've perused the articles of SMC and see there are many practices to building cabinets. I'd like to be efficient (not overkill as these are just standard kitchen cabs) but structurally sound. I have the full Kreg master jig a fairly complete shop setup. Any input would be appreciated (especially pictures!).

1. Separate or integral toe-kick assembly.
2. If separate, how do I attach the carcass discreetly?
3. Method for attaching bottom to sides (just pocket screws, dado + screws...etc)
4. Method for attaching faceframes to carcasses.
5. Sizes and configuration of stringers, nailer strips etc.
6. Drawer mounting procedures. (I'm using the simple nylon blum slides)
7. Material thickness for shelves (both upper and lower)

(that ought to do it for now - any processes, tricks, etc that can speed things up - throw 'em out there - I want these to be done right) :rolleyes:

[Jim Becker]

(Aaron, I was away on vacation and didn't get to your email)


1. Separate or integral toe-kick assembly.

I prefer separate so I can level the toe kicks first as well as simplify carcass construction to simple rectangles


2. If separate, how do I attach the carcass discreetly?

I just use screws that are countersunk just enough to bring them level with the cabinet bottom


3. Method for attaching bottom to sides (just pocket screws, dado + screws...etc)

I've done multiple methods. Currently, I've moved to pocket screws and glue for my Baltic birch carcasses


4. Method for attaching faceframes to carcasses.

Glue...and a few biscuits for alignment was how I've done this in the past. Again, I've been moving more to pocket screws at this point.


5. Sizes and configuration of stringers, nailer strips etc.

Typically 2-3" wide and of the same material as the carcass Two on top for support of whatever the cabinet will be topped with (with intermediate support if it's a wide cabinet) and one at the top, back of the cabinet for screwing to the wall. These are all screwed to the cabinet sides, either from the outside or with pocket screws in the component if they need to be hidden.


6. Drawer mounting procedures. (I'm using the simple nylon blum slides)

For kitchen cabinets, self-closing drawer slides are nice for the "regular" drawers. I use full extension for the "big" drawers. (I prefer drawers to open cabinets)


7. Material thickness for shelves (both upper and lower)

3/4", err...18mm... ;)

[Aaron Hamilton]

Jim,
Thanks...I was hoping I'd hear from you since you just tackled the project - that's good reaffirmation that my methods aren't too far off.

A CLARIFICATION OF ONE OF THE QUESTIONS

Drawer mounting procedure - I'm referring more to: do you use the plastic clips that are made for rear mounting of the self closing slides or do you build spacer/shim blocks to attach directly to the carcass sides and build saddle/stretcher boards for areas where an endcap/divider is not available? Or is there an easier or better way than either of these? I want longevity - so something tells me the plastic clips aren't going to get me that?

I hope that makes sense!

[Loren Hedahl]

These are my answers to your questions, but they are based on the way I build custom kitchen cabinets (and I would be the first to agree that other methods are valid).

1. Separate. I use levelers that are adjustable from inside the cabinet and clip on toe rails.

2. Just screw through from the inside from one cabinet to the next. If you are fussy (and I am) I position the screws to be hidden by a drawer slide where possible.

3. The best method is to use a lock joint that you cut with a table saw. That method produces the a very square and strong cabinet. However, usually I use a bisquit jointer, with bisquits spaced on 6 inch centers, then I drive a dry wall screw between each bisquit upon glue-up to keep the number of clamps needed to a minimum. Usually clamps are only used to pull a cabinet into square, and that is not needed very often.

4. This is a perfect application for your Kreg pocket hole setup.

5. There's more options here than you can shake a stick at. Most of this would be a style or esthetic choice. I happen to like an Asian look that has frameless doors of verticle slats that suggest a bamboo construction. You would probably consider it wierd.

6. Shell out 25 bucks for the Kreg slider positioner. Worth every solitary penny in frustration elimination.

7. For the adjustable shelves I use 3/4 hardwood ply, edges faced with 1/2 by 3/4 hardwood. I face all four sides because I'm not competing with Home Depot or Lowes. I face the ends first, trim, then face the front and back edges. This is another great place to use your Kreg pocket hole system. I don't have a Kreg setup, so I use bisquits. I just use masking tape to clamp the faces on the shelf edges. I set shelf adjuster tracks in vertical dadoes on the cabinet ends. I think they are more substantial than the row of holes most cabinet have.

Again -- this is the way I do cabinets usually. I often use BK drawer construction instead of going with metal sliders.

Hope this helps. And also hope other chime in with their favorite methods. It is quite possible better methods than mine are being done successfully and I could learn something valuable.

[Jeff Wright]

I just completed a proof-of-concept sample cabinet using Sommerfeld's offset tongue-and-groove system and am very impressed with it. They provide a set of bits ($109) that let you cut grooves and tongues to attach the face frames to the cabinet sides, the floor to the face frame lower rail, attach any dividers to the face frame, slot for installing the back panel, and corner blocks for strengthening and alignment. There are a number of advantages. The components 'snap' together solidly, forcing perfect alignment. The floor aligns even with the top edge of the bottom rail, requiring no sanding prior to finishing in an attempt to level out any misalignments. The system is on the top of my list for my upcoming kitchen build. The system does use some pocket hole screws, but only where they're not seen. I elected to use my Domino to join the face frame components, but I could have easily used pocket holes instead. Rather than post the same photos again, visit:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=57474

Suggest you buy Sommerfeld's $10 video on building kitchen cabinets using his system. While it promotes his pocket holes system, the Kreg will work fine. That's what I use.

While I have built two kitchens in my past, that was a thousand years ago and I feel as if I am beginning my knowledge of woodworking from the start since there are many new approaches. So take my input for what it's worth.

[Aaron Hamilton]

Jeff,
First off, I love the "no nails" look of the cabinets. Just curious about time issues - IYO, does this process take alot longer than simple pocket screws and dados?

Also...did you do the routing all on a router table? How was that when handling large sections of sheet goods? (such as my 7 foot section of cabinet that I'm making).

If the time comes out to a wash with clamping the kreg jig up, squaring, nailing, etc...I might look into this very seriously. Your cabinets look great!

[Jeff Wright]

Jeff,
First off, I love the "no nails" look of the cabinets. Just curious about time issues - IYO, does this process take alot longer than simple pocket screws and dados?

No added time. May in fact be faster than dados and screws. Especially since there are virtually no alignment issues. And the fact that the cabinets go together so square will reduce troublesome issues down the line that adds time.

Also...did you do the routing all on a router table? How was that when handling large sections of sheet goods? (such as my 7 foot section of cabinet that I'm making).

I have a mid-size woodpecker router table and Incra super-duper fence system. But a regular router table will do nicely. The tongue and grooves are cut on the front and back edges, so the widest component would be less than 24 inches.

If the time comes out to a wash with clamping the kreg jig up, squaring, nailing, etc...I might look into this very seriously. Your cabinets look great!

They should also be stout as the tongue and groove affords a lot of gluing surface. Also, while the 'normal' assembly is to have the sides align flush with the face frame, by reversing the side, you can end up with about a 1/4 inch reveal or overhang on the cabinet ends (or backs if you want it) that permits easier trimming and scribing of the cabinet into irregular wall surfaces. This is accomplished due to the tongue and groove being designed offset. This is what makes his bits different than typical T&G bits.
I have asked for other forum members to critique or criticize the Sommerfeld approach, but little negative feedback to date. I don't know why his system is not more widely used.

[Aaron Hamilton]

Jeff,
Thanks for your quick response. I am going to put a set of these on order tonight - sounds like a good buy for now and for future "finer" cabinetry projects. Thanks for all your input.

Last question - how many flush cuts do you have to make? I'm assuming just the 2 on the ends of the floor of the cabinets where the tongue would overlap the vertical faceframe stile?

[Chris McDowell]

Aaron you are quite correct there are literally dozens of ways to build cabinets. I do it every day and am always looking at techniques and talking to other cabinet shops to see what they do and why. Here's what I do.

1. I use cabinet levelers with clip-on toekicks. It allows you to get six sides out of a sheet of ply instead of four. The other great part is the levelers make getting the base cabinets level a very quick and easy chore.

2.The levelers I have been using attach to the bottom of your carcass and are adjusted from underneath. That is without a through hole in the bottom. I like the look a lot better, but that's just my preference.

3. Most shops are going staples and screws. I used to be a die-hard dado man until talking with a few guys over at Woodweb. There is a theory that using dadoes actually weakens the carcass. After switching over I can honestly say I will never dado anything on a kitchen cabinet again , except a groove for my back to slip into.


4. I use pocketholes and glue wherever possible to attach my faceframes. On the bottom of my uppers I use biscuits because I don't like seeing pocketholes on the bottom of the cabinet.

5.I use 3\4 plywood for all sides, bottoms, shelves, and stretchers. I make the stretchers 4" wide on most except the sink base where I use corner blocks to provide the extra clearance necessary. I don't use nailer strips because my backs are 1\2" plywood.

6.I generally use full extension ball bearing slides. They are extremely smooth and much tougher in the long run than roller type slides.

7. I make all my shelves out of 3\4 plywood and edge it with 3\4 x1 1\2" hardwood. I generally run in over an ogee bit on both the top and the bottom of the hardwood strip to give it an extra decorative touch.

While I am at it I'll go ahead and give my opinions of the Sommerfeld router set. I bought mine over a year ago. Though the price was fair and the system certainly looked interesting. It is very well thought out and accurate. For me it is too slow. I can make two to three cabinets with the construction methods listed by the time I make one using the Sommerfeld set. And I have multiple router tables.
I'm not knocking the system. For someone building their own cabinets it would certainly be a worthwhile investment. But in my shop time is money and it just doesn't work out well for me.
The only other piece of advice I would give you is look around for some prefinished plywood for the interiors. It will save you more time than you can imagine. Hope this helps a little and enjoy making your cabinets.

[michael cannon]

3. Most shops are going staples and screws. I used to be a die-hard dado man until talking with a few guys over at Woodweb. There is a theory that using dadoes actually weakens the carcass. After switching over I can honestly say I will never dado anything on a kitchen cabinet again , except a groove for my back to slip into.

Could you say a little more about this technique? I couldn't find
what you were talking about at woodweb knowledge base...

Thanks,

Mike

[Jeff Wright]

Jeff, Last question - how many flush cuts do you have to make? I'm assuming just the 2 on the ends of the floor of the cabinets where the tongue would overlap the vertical faceframe stile?

I'm not sure I understand your question (it's still early in the morning!!). The ENDS of the floor (its left and right edge looking at the cabinet from the front) get NO cuts. The floor's ends are butt joined to the side panels and pocket screwed into each of the side panels. The back edge of the floor gets two grooves, one on top to accept the 1/4" back panel and one on the bottom to accept the tongue edge of a nailing stip. The front edge of the floor gets a tongue that slides into a groove that is cut into the lower rail on the face frame. This joint is flush, the top edge of the lower rail level with the floor's top surface.

The DVD is very thorough in showing you how it all goes together. It is free with the order of the tongue and groove set.

[Jeff Wright]

. . . I can honestly say I will never dado anything on a kitchen cabinet again , except a groove for my back to slip into.

Chris, if you slide your back panels into a groove (instead of a rabbet) and if your backs are 1/2" ply, doesn't that eat up a good bit of the cabinet's depth? You've got the offset of the groove from the back plus the 1/2" thickness of the back panel versus a 1/4" ply.

Also, can you provide a source for your clip-on levelers and maybe a part number?

Great ideas on kitchen building. Thanks!

[Aaron Hamilton]

Same request...I want these clip on levelers - they sound great.

[Aaron Hamilton]

Jeff,
OH, for some reason I thought the floor was t&g'd into the sides. Seems like that is the most crucial joint of the whole cabinet....

[Phil Phelps]

and I hope you are, HD sells, in my area, an exact 3/4" maple/birch plywood for thirty bucks. No special bit for dados and it finishes beautifully. A word about adjustable shelves in overhead cabinets. I doubt you'll ever adjust them, so don't bother drillin' a million holes :D

[Ed Falis]

...
2.The levelers I have been using attach to the bottom of your carcass and are adjusted from underneath. That is without a through hole in the bottom. I like the look a lot better, but that's just my preference....

Chris,

Got a link or product name for the levellers you use? Doing cabinets for our kitchen, and am becoming convinced levellers are the way to go, but my wife doesn't want through holes into the bottoms.

Thanks,

- Ed

[Chris Mann]

Lee Valley has them
http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=40409&cat=3,40993,41283

item 00S85.01

-chris

[Ed Falis]

Thanks, Chris. LV is definitely making money on my cabinets.

[Richard McComas]

Looks like you getting lot of good advice. One other thing to consider is the depth of your upper cabinets. In my opinion standard 12” deep upper cabinets do not leave enough room inside the cabinet of some dinner plates and other items. Carefully consider what you’re going to put in them and build accordingly. I have built uppers as deep and 16” with good results. Of course this will take more material.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Richard...I've found that my 12" deep cabinets are totally inadequate for certain types of items needing storage and would have preferred 13" or 14 1/2" of depth.

[Chris McDowell]

Sorry I couldn't get back to you guys sooner but I have been swamped. First of all Jeff when I put my half inch plywood in it's groove I place the groove 1" from the edge giving me half inch clearance between the wall and the cabinet back. Like many have posted a standard 12" upper is too shallow to begin with so most of mine are deeper and it causes no problems. In fact one of the main advantages it gives me is the extra clearance between the cabinets and the walls. I have put cabinets on some really unsquare and unstraight walls. It is a great help to have the cabinet only touch the walls on the ends and not the middle.

For everyone interested in the levelers. I know woodworkers supply carries them but I get mine from Hafele. I believe they only sell to a business but don't quote me on that. Someone posted about Lee Valley carrying them. Where ever you get them from it won't take long to fall in love with them.

Michael--it's been a while since I read the discussion on woodweb. The gist of it was cutting grooves in plywood actually weakens the structure because plywood has grain running in opposite directions. That is how it gets it's strength. The claim was whenever you cut into it you are compromising the strength of the product. True or not I cannot say, but I do know staples and screws are faster and extremely strong. You might try looking under cabinet building techniques or something similar. If you can't come up with anything, PM me and I will try to look this weekend.
I don't think you'll have any trouble finding information on using screws, whether they are confirmat, Zip-R, or pocket holes in cabinet construction. Hope I was able to offer a little help. If anybody wants to know anything else, I will be glad to offer what little I know.

[Chris McDowell]

It just dawned on me to explain one of the cons to using screws is you have to make an end panel to cover them. For me it's not a problem since I prefer to make raised panel ends for my cabinets. I also should mention I have been using confirmats recently and have been greatly impressed with their strength. For those not familiar, confirmats are generally used with MDF or Melamine but works very well in good plywood.
Today I just used confirmats with a few biscuits in between for a display kitchen for an appliance store. Was the first time I had used the two together and I like it a lot, but the biscuits really aren't necessary. Just me experimenting in the shop. If anybody wants to see pictures of the display when I finish, I will try to post some. I still owe some DC pictures that I promised. Maybe I can sweet talk my wife into helping me since I am camera challenge. Best of luck to all and happy mothers day weekend to everyone.

Chris

[frank shic]

ed, make sure you get a 15mm forstner drill bit for the levelling legs. you attach them by first putting the bracket in the hole, whacking the dowel that's in the center to fix it in place and then inserting the leg.

[Ed Falis]

Thanks for the tip, Frank.

[Jeff Wright]

ed, make sure you get a 15mm forstner drill bit for the levelling legs. you attach them by first putting the bracket in the hole, whacking the dowel that's in the center to fix it in place and then inserting the leg.

Frank,

~ Can you clarify how you install the legs? Any photos?
~ Must you have a metric forstner, or will a close imperial size work?
~ Do the clip-on kick plates install securely or are they prone to rattle and fall off their attaching mechanisms over time?

Thanks!

[frank shic]

jeff, i started out using an imperial (inches) forstner bit and you get a fit that's either too loose or too tight. as far as the kick plates go, they stay on pretty tight unless you kick it REALLY HARD. if you want to make sure they really don't go anywhere, you could fire a couple of pins towards the top of the kick plate into the levelling leg but that defeats one of the reasons to use levelling legs: future accessibility in case you need to put in extra plumbing or electrical lines. BTW i have an extra 15mm forstner that i'd be willing to sell if anyone private mails me.

[Ray Schafer]

I am a hobbyist. I read all the info about the Zip-r screws and want to get a variety of sizes, but I am having trouble finding them. Can anyone help me find them?

Ray

[frank shic]

zip-r screws, ultimates, and assembly screws are all the same. you should predrill/countersink before driving them otherwise you will get a bit of pooching when you try to drive them flush with the cabinet side.

here's one source:

http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm/GroupID/Fasteners%20%26%20Screws/CatID/Ultimate%20Screws

here's another:

http://cshardware.com/iwwidb.pvx?;multi_item_submit

[Ben Grunow]

I plan to make my kitchen soon as well and one of the things that bothers me about most kitchens is that they are made in small individual sizes which results in joints in the face frames where they are attached. I plan to make the cabinets as one piece since shipping is less than 50' from shop to wall. Less joints is better.

Additionally, I have seen many kitchens painted in place and I firmly believe in the practice as it eliminates the screwed together boxes look and you get a finish that is serviceable (easily fixed as life takes its toll on base boards and doors etc). You need a good painter though or the finish can build up and relaly look awful (think more prep time than time spent painting).

[frank shic]

ben, if you can lug a colossal 8 foot run of upper cabinets and hang it up by yourself or with some help (which i would strongly recommend) then more power to you. you can eliminate the separate face frame joints by clamping the face frames to the carcases since you probably don't want pocket screws showing on the inside. finishing after installation would be nice but it would require way to much masking and covering up the rest of the house to make it feasible for me. besides, i'm not into face frame cabinets.