Pm66, Pm2000, Sawstop--bies Or Incra

[mark page]

Ok guys, the safety issue and $$$ totally aside of the Sawstop. No new wars here. I will be looking for a new TS first of the year and looking for lifetime quality and last saw I need to purchase. Pretty well narrowed to these three. As some of my previous posts relate, I am not against spending money for quality. Pay once and cry once. Need references from those who are familiar with all three machines to give me the readers digest condensed version. I can read the specs myself and have, but specs to me are a sales pitch of capacities and maximum capabilities, not of actual performance. Will probably go with the 50 incher. Need the pros and cons, goods and bads, comparisons of workmanship, quality, and materials. Will most likely be 5hp single phase as not that much more for increase in hp. Decision will most likely be made on the balance beam method of which carries the weight of best quality, longevity, accuracy, etc. Probably should have been two threads, but am familiar with the Bies setup and not the Incra. Pros and cons of each setup for these three saws exclusively. Let the debate begin to coerce me between one of the three, and which fence setup. Oh by the way my work will be from one extreme to the other, small cuts, rips, cabs, furniture, to large panel work. Am looking for the bonafide scoop and not the poop on these machines.
thanks, Mark

[Mark Singer]

I had the PM66 and it is a great saw... I bought a Sawstop a while ago and I think it is better in many respects....smoother...better fence.... safety... I do all kinds of stuff and many tricky cuts on a tablesaw....the sawStop is a very accurate machine and in my mind the best that is out there... The others are very good as well...

[Tom Jones III]

I've had the PM66 for a couple years now. It is a fine saw, what I like most is that I set it up once and it is always setup. I check it for square/parallel every once in a while and it is always accurate.

If I had to do it over again, I would require the consistency of the PM66 with a riving knife and a dust shroud.

[Rob Bodenschatz]

If I had to do it over again, I would require the consistency of the PM66 with a riving knife and a dust shroud.

That pretty much describes the PM2000, no?

[Douglas Robinson]

Mark:

I have the PM2000. I bought it about a monthand a half ago. I have the Incra LSTS rail system attached. I had this system on my old jet saw. When I transfered it to the PM2000 I had to get a new fence and cross support as the old ones were too short. Incra was GREAT on the phone. To date theirs is the best service I have ever received!! When I call with questions I get Perry who literally wrote the manual. When I couldn't find a screw Perry said I "was under warranty" and then sent me a bag with one of every screw despite the fact that I told him exactlky which screw it was. I like the accuracy and controlabilty of the Incra system. I can't see returning to a Bies fence system. I attacha picture of my set up.

Doug

[Rob Bodenschatz]

Doug, would you mind showing a picture of the front?

[Don Bullock]

Mark,
I must state up front that I don't meet all your criteria for past experience. I moved up to the SawStop from an old (1979) Cman. That being said, I have the SawStop with an Incra fence attached. What I wanted in a saw was a top notch table saw that could be set up to cut accurate cuts every time with repeatibility built in. With this combination I got just that. The saw is very well made as Mark Singer has already explained and the Incra fence is as accurate as a fence can be. The designers of the SawStop didn't just slap their brake technology of a cheap saw. They designed their saw from the ground up, putting as much quality as possible in where it is needes as well as the features that woodworkers wanted. Was safety an issue in my choice? Sure, but the quality of the saw was even more important to me. I have no regrets. This will definately be my last table saw.

See --- http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56593

In fairness, since you stated that $$$ isn't a factor in the question you might be interested in a slider much like the setup that Jim Becker has.

See ---- http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=51276

[David Giles]

Sounds like you need to build something on each one in order to fully be comfortable. There is at least one of each saw in Houston. So fill up a trailer full of wood and head south! Wood for knowledge! You can play with my Sawstop and Incra for 1/3 of the haul.

[Dick Sylvan]

It seems to me that you need to consider the Mini-Max, Felder, or Hammer sliders.

[Douglas Robinson]

Rob:

Here are a couple of more shots.

Doug

[John Hulett]

Mark,

I can't comment on the saws; I'm looking for a similar upgrade next year too. I can, however, comment on the Incra. In short, I LOVE my Incra fence. It made a world of difference on my C-man contractor saw. A little silly, in hindsight, but it is what it is. Having very limited experience on a Bies or Bies-style fence, and from what I can see on NYW and DJM's WW, I can tell you two disadvantages of the Incra; 1) wasted space to the right of the saw. From the looks of things, Doug is putting those retractable, built-in mobile base to work if he wants to cut anything much wider than the fence is set at in his pictures. 2) you can't do the same sort of jigs on the Incra that you can on the Bies that straddle and slide along the fence (like the spline cutting jig or raised panel cutting jig). If these are not an issue for you - and it hasn't been for me - I would recommend the Incra.

I started a thread not long ago that asked about keeping the Incra in lieu of the Bies when I do upgrade. The Incra won the debate. I'd almost consider the Bies just to be able to butt the right side of my saw up to the wall, but where it is now is working out okay.

Hope it helps...

- John

[Don Bullock]

Mark,

...I can tell you two disadvantages of the Incra; 1) wasted space to the right of the saw. From the looks of things, Doug is putting those retractable, built-in mobile base to work if he wants to cut anything much wider than the fence is set at in his pictures. 2) you can't do the same sort of jigs on the Incra that you can on the Bies that straddle and slide along the fence (like the spline cutting jig or raised panel cutting jig). If these are not an issue for you - and it hasn't been for me - I would recommend the Incra.

...- John

1) John is correct here. The Incra Positioner does stick out to the right of the saw when it's being used, especially for wide cuts.

2) While I haven't made any of the jigs that John mentioned, jigs like this can be made for the Incra. Instead of straddling the fence the jigs could be designed to use either the tracks on top of the fence or the face of the fence. This would make the jigs just as handy and accurate.

Another reason for an Incra:
Like Doug on his PM, I plan to add a router table to the right side of my SawStop. I'll be able to use the Incra Positioner for both the table saw and router (I can even turn the Positioner around and work with the router from the end of the setup -far right side - instead of next to the sawblade). In addition this setup uses the space between the rails of the fence and provides a table for supporting wood to the right of the saw.

[mark page]

I actually got to disect a sawstop today at the local WC. I did like what I saw. Heavy as hell trunion, bearings like a 4x4 truck, motor mounted in parallel or under the trunion, fence very smooth, fence was double shimmed to keep from racking so much when moving, serpentine drive belts, riving knive very easy to install and remove, and of course the 30 inch table. I did not get to demo one as this was the only one on display.
One question that they arose, as they had demo'd it previously, was that the dust control was lacking. Stated lots of rooster tail dust that was excessive for a ZCI. Can anyone else comment on this. They were going to bring this up at the next divisional seminar with sawstop reps. Gotta admit this thing is built like a tank.
So far the sawstop is winning hands down, just due to design and craftsmanship, eliminating all the extra safety features that I deem as an extra. The PM2000 running close second place. Anyone comment on their dust control situation???

[Bob Wingard]

We replaced a 30+ year old 66 with a SawStop recently .. no regrets .. this thing is built like a tank.

[Jules Dominguez]

I find dust collection to be good for normal through cuts, either rip or crosscut. Very little dust on the table or floor. But when ripping less than a full kerf off of the left edge of a board (blade to left of fence), dust collection is negligible. Mind that this is my opinion after relatively short ownership, haven't done any big projects with a lot of cutting yet, and I don't worry about dust nearly as much as a lot of people appear to. Another factor is I moved up to the Sawstop from a contractor saw with no dust collection, so I don't have prior experience to compare to.

[Roy Wall]

Mark,

I sent you a Private Message......
You are welcome to come by and see the SS......I have altered the blade DC to this.....and it works very well.

See this link:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=48513

[Don Bullock]

I find dust collection to be good for normal through cuts, either rip or crosscut. Very little dust on the table or floor. ...

Another factor is I moved up to the Sawstop from a contractor saw with no dust collection, so I don't have prior experience to compare to.

I just moved up to a SawStop from a contractors saw as well. For me, the dust collection setup is fantastic, but I can't compare it to the PM2000.

I'd suggest that you take Roy up on his generous offer if that is a big concern for you. Have him show you what the dust collection is like with and without his guard DC operating. His setup is very interesting and something I may do after I get into a shop where I don't have to move all my equipment around to fit two cars in the garage.

[Cary Swoveland]

I've had the PM66 for a couple years now. It is a fine saw....

Mark, just to warn you that It's Not Unusual for Tom to rave about a machine he owns, even if he once expressed reservations. As I recall, before buying the PM66, he said, "I'll Never Fall in Love with the PM66", then after buying it, said, "I'm Stoned in Love with my PM66".

Cary

[Tom Jones III]

Mark, just to warn you that It's Not Unusual for Tom to rave about a machine he owns, even if he once expressed reservations. As I recall, before buying the PM66, he said, "I'll Never Fall in Love with the PM66", then after buying it, said, "I'm Stoned in Love with my PM66".

Cary

I believe that post just earned you another lap around purgatory!

[Joe Jensen]

I had a Delta Unisaw 3HP with Biesemeyer fence from 1984 until 1990, great saw but I wanted a right tilt. I sold the Unisaw and bought a PM66 new in 1990 and loved it. Great saw, but the factory guard system was terrilble and I removed it within a few weeks. In 2006 I saw and bought the SawStop. I think the SawStop is a nicer machine, but if I had to bet which one would be completely trouble free and working 50 years from now I'd say the PM66 (one that was 100% made in the USA with aged castings, etc.). If I had to buy the 50 year trouble free saw today, I'd search out a lightly used 1990's era PM66, and then I'd add a good splitter system and an overhead guard.

Having said that, if you can afford the Sawstop, and the idea that you might have to spend some money down the road replacing a gas strut, or some electronics, I say go for it. It's nicer to raise and lower, and it has much better safety items than the PM66. The SawStop also has more extensive blade alignment adjustments than the PM66 or PM2000. With the PM66 built in the US in 1990, I had confidence that PM manchined everything in the trunions precisely enough that these adjustments weren't necessary. I wouldn't be so confident on the newer cheaper PM saws. Not sure they are well machined on the SawStop, but then the critical alignments are adjustable so it doesn't matter. To learn more about this, download the SawStop manual from their website. Having a fair bit of experience with spec'ing tolerances and pricing them, I'm sure that there are differences in price and quality for machines made in the same factory. It's not just bearings, but the tolerances for all moving surfaces. When the blade tilts, does it stay parallel with the fence at all angles? I guarentee you that in order for that to happen it needs to be machined precisely, or it needs to be adjustable.

I haven't done more than look at the PM2000, but in the 5 min I spent looking it over it just seemed lighter built than my 1990 PM66. It certainly has a smaller table and thinner castings than the SawStop. If you are seriously considering the PM2000, take a look inside and compare the trunions to an older PM66. Also, I read somewhere (but don't know if it's true) that the newer PM saws do not use aged castings and that's why there are more table flatness issues. I'd also worry that tolerances are sloppy on the trunions too which would mean the blade to fence alignment would change with blade height and or blade angle.

On fences, I'm a Biesemeyer type bigot. I find them tough and accurate. I liked the SawStop clone, and hey it was black so it matched, so I bought that one instead of a true Bies. I've always worried that an aluminum fence system would bend when I toss a 4x8 sheet of MDF onto the saw and it hits the fence. Never an issue with the Biesemeyer. I've never used an Incra so this purely conjecture.

[Cary Swoveland]

I actually got to disect a sawstop today at the local WC... One question that they arose, as they had demo'd it previously, was that the dust control was lacking....]
I find the dust collection pretty good. I usually have the guard on (with pawls removed*). The plastic guard is very narrow. That's good. It allows narrow rips and, combined with the zero-clearance plate and a good vac, seems to direct most of the dust down. The dust that escapes does not seem to form a cloud. If I can avoid it, I'd prefer not having an overhead dust pickup on my TS. I feel I can get by without one on my SS.


So far the sawstop is winning hands down... The PM2000 running close second place...

Hmmm.

Cary

* I certainly wouldn't recommend this, just can't seem to find 'em.

[Bob Michaels]

Anyone comment on their dust control situation???

In a conversation with SS several months ago I brought up the dust collection issue. They said that they are aware that the dc is lacking and they are working on a new shroud for the blade (inside the cabinet) and the upgrade will also be able to be retrofitted to existing SS saws. IIRC, it's suppose to be available closer to the end of the year. In the meantime, I can live with it but, my buddy Roy Wall has a good solution. Hey Roy, can you point us in the right direction to buy one of those blade guard with a hose port. Thanks.

[Bill Wyko]

Well My BIL has the Incra LSTS and I have the bies. He can adjust to 1000th of an inch accuratly and repititiously. I also have the incra router system. I believe you have more versitility with the incra. You can also use it for very intricate routering so my first choice would be the incra system. You really can't go wrong either way but the incra is going to be more accurate in every way and much more versitile.

[Roy Wall]

Hey Roy, can you point us in the right direction to buy one of those blade guard with a hose port. Thanks.


I think so.......:confused:

I googled Felder USA and found a 10" blade guard w/ 50mm dc port. about $40 + $9 shipping. It does work well with a shop vac or DC drop. I use 4" dc drop....choke to 3"....then choke again to the 2" ....

The guard will easily fit onto the SS riving knife - although with the blade FULLy raised it will just nick into the front of the guard about a 1/4 inch.

It is much better than the SS blade guard for DC ...only an inch wider total so you can still use it on thin (about 1.5") rips.

[mark page]

Hi Bill,

Any issues with the space to the right of the fence on wide panel cuts with the Incra. I have a limited shop size, but could still probably substantiate the space, provided with a little equipment movement.
Normally would not be an issue, but I work in a double garage and my problems lie in that the shop is a shortcut for someone reaching the driveway. During rainy days the garage door opener is an omen, dripping water onto various double wide areas when the door is raised. I try to keep equipment in position accordingly but sometimes hard to do with larger projects. Guess I'll just need to pull the ripcord on the safety release mechanism next time rain is in the forecast...