Naive question on jack and smoother planes

[Randy Klein]

I've read a lot of good debate/discussion on "what planes to start with", "if you could only have one", "most useful/versatile", etc. and everyone generally says that the jack plane is their plane of choice. But I really can't tell what about a jack plane makes it this desirable.

So my naive question: What is it about a jack plane that makes it so versatile (especially relative to the smoother)?

I can only tell that (for Lee Valley bevel up planes) the jack plane is 6 inches longer. Is this the only difference and is it this difference that makes it so much more versatile? Does the jack plane just happen to be the Goldilocks length?

As for smoothers, how much "better" do they perform the final finish prep over the jack?

I know that's probably a matter of preference. But to the untrained eye, will a surface finished with a smoother be noticeably differennt than one done with a jack (all else being equal)?

[Pam Niedermayer]

I think most of us were talking about the LN or LV low angle jack, most definitely nothing "in general" about either of them and nothing we said applies to normal jacks. Certainly it's partly length, which facilitates joining and jacking; but smoothing is also a strength give the blades and adjustable mouths. A smoother will be shorter, usually much, much shorter and will take a much finer shaving. So the jacks can do something of the smoother's job for a while, until you decide what you want in a smoother; but probably not forever.

Pam

[Chris Friesen]

Tthe longer the plane, the more it "rides" over valleys and tends to cut off the peaks. This is desirable in a jointer plane, as its goal is to make the surface flat.

With a smoother, you want it a bit shorter so that it has more of a tendency to follow the surface. If there is a slight hill or depression, you *want* the smoother to follow it so that the surface finish of the depression matches that of the hill.

Trying to smooth with a jointer would be a real pain. Its big and heavy and unless the surface is *absolutely* flat it won't smooth the surface evenly. Similarly, trying to joint with a smoother would be possible but a pain. You'd have to be constantly referencing the wood against a straightedge because the plane itself isn't long enough to be effective.

Hence the jack--it doesn't do as good a job of smoothing as a dedicated smoother (it's too long) and it doesn't do as good a job of jointing as a dedicated jointer (its too short). But it can do both jobs reasonably well.

If you have other ways to do jointing and you're looking to just get that freshly-planed finish, then personally I'd say go ahead and get the smoother. For myself I bought a bevel-up jack, and it has served well for both jointing and smoothing.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Take my opinions as they are, my opinions, but I don't think the jack is a good choice for someone who blends machine and hand work. As someone mentioned in a previous post, it's too long to be a decent smoother and too short to effectively joint an edge or flatten a panel without a lot of extra work. I use my jack for rough work only but I do all my work with hand tools. I don't own a power jointer or planer, but when I did (had em, sold em) I almost never used the jack. I took the boards from the rough state with the power jointer and planer, then finished flattening and removing mill marks with the jointer plane and finally smoothed them with the smooth plane. The jack plane collected dust.

If you don't want to do your rough surfacing with hand planes, skip the jack and get a dedicated smoother and jointer. Use your power jointer and planer to dress your lumber or buy it S2S. Then use your hand planes for their intended purpose rather than trying to make one jack plane do something it was never intended to do.

Again, just my 2¢.

[James Mittlefehldt]

Randy, get the latest issue of Popular Woodworking there is an article in there by Mike Dunbar on using and tuning hand planes, he explains there what the initial purpose for the various bech planes were. Actually what he says pretty much echoes what Robert said, Jack Planes are for rough work. According to the article, back in the day, anything designed for rough stuff had the name jack applied to it.

I actually seldom use mine and I am all hand tools as well. The LV or LN low angle planes are the equines of differnt hues, they are not really the same thing at all, but rather a modern adaptation of an older design.

[David Weaver]

I agree with the above, even as a quasi-beginner. A Jack is something you might want to get after you have the smoother and jointer planes. A smoother is plenty to remove planer chatter, and you'll appreciate the extra heft of a larger jointer if you buy one. If you don't buy one, you'll appreciate it when you get to use someone else's.

[Eric Sink]

Kudos to Chris Friesen for his post above. That's a very concise and clear explanation.

[Randy Klein]

Thank you all for this info. I think I was on the right track about the differences, but wasn't really sure.

Now, I feel more confident about forgoing a Jack plane for the Smoother.

I have a lunch box planer for the dimensioning (using a sled set up for the face jointing). And it sounds like the smoother will do a fine job removing the planer's imperfections.

As for now, I edge joint with a bandsaw/router setup. But I can definitely see a jointer plane in my future.

James, I'm not sure what you mean about LV and LN low angles. Are you referring about the differences between a LV low angle and a LN low angle or the difference between a low angle plane to a non-low angle plane?

[Randy Klein]

I just went to Lee Valley's website. Does anyone know the difference between their bevel up (http://tinyurl.com/24n6xp) and low angle smoother (http://tinyurl.com/37ketj) planes. They are visibly different but I can't actually see any real differences in their description.

[Rob Luter]

Hi Randy,

The BUS is a dedicated smoother that uses the same blades as the BU Jointer and LA Jack Planes. The LA smoother is a smaller plane that uses a narrower blade. I read a comparison review on these two a while back, but can't remember where. Perhaps Derek's reviews?

[Randy Klein]

I just read this tidbit in another thread, written by Rob Lee:

" The bevel-up planes were designed for rapid blade swapping, and have a very low centre of gravity ... the feel is different. The BU Smooth is very much a single purpose plane. The LA smooth is a versatile shooter and smoother, specifically designed to be held on its side as well (the lever cap sides are designed as finger rests...)...

Either plane, with equally sharp blades having the same effective cut angle will produce equivalent finishes on the wood... "

[Eddie Darby]

I'm *guessing* that you can use the magnetic fence with the LA smooth plane, and not with the BU smoother, due to it's coffin shape body.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=41716&cat=1,41182

[James Mittlefehldt]

Thank you all for this info. I think I was on the right track about the differences, but wasn't really sure.

James, I'm not sure what you mean about LV and LN low angles. Are you referring about the differences between a LV low angle and a LN low angle or the difference between a low angle plane to a non-low angle plane?

Essentially the difference between these planes and the normal numbner 5 planes. I don't have any personal experience with them but if you can believe the users, and I have no reason not to, the low angle jack plane, with assorted blades truly can be used for multi purpose applications, and it sounds like it is actually much more of a multi purpose plane than the regular no 5.

If you wanted to you could always, buy a number 6 if you happen to see one as it can do jointing as well, though it seems to be the ugly stepchild for some reason. I guess my point there is, if it is all you find it will serve.