Your Decision From Cabinet To Sliding Table Saw

[Vic Damone]

I was wondering at what point did you realized a sliding table saw made more sense than a cabinet saw? I have never seen one in practical use other than in demonstration or promotional clips. Maybe I'm asking the wrong question. Is this decision more related to working with sheet material? Is it easy to do smallish work on a slider? (Next question requires singing) Is there anything you can do, I can do easier- with a table saw?

What are some of the main safety issues between the two?

Vic

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Vic, I have went through just about every type of table saw there is, from homemade, benchtop, contractor, cabinet saw, to finally a true format slider. I made the decision to quite settling for mediocre tools, just to have money left over to buy more mediocre tools, get frustrated , and sell them for 1/2 what I paid.

You asked if they were only good for plywood, they do excel at cutting amazingly accurate panels out of plywood, but that same accuracy and ease of use carries over into solid stock also. My saw has seen over 3000 brd ft, straight lined, ripped and crosscut in the last year.

Safety is another benefit of the slider, the saw inherently keeps your hand away from the blade and your body away from kickback, and the riving knife prevents kickback.
I only buy tools if they can make me faster and more accurate ( More Money) , and this saw by far is the best investment I have made.

[Jim Becker]

I'm largely a solid stock user, but still decided that the slider was the right choice for me going forward. The precision and safety was foremost on my mind and the ability to have repeatable accuracy was another kicker. In all fairness, I could have continued to use my former cabinet saw "forever" with no problem...I like the saw and it was good to me, too. So the decision to go with a slider was also just a personal choice given I'm a serious hobbyist and not a pro. But I'm already realizing some great pleasure from the repeatability and just recently started cutting the first sheet goods on the machine that I've worked with since taking delivery in early February. It's really wonderful to use.

[Bill Fleming]

Call Carl at Mini Max - great guy and he will help you out - I don't have the space yet for a slider but when I do it will be a great addition!

[Gary Curtis]

Many of the big manufacturers of this equipment have a DVD available: Felder, Mini-Max, Laguna, Knapp, etc.

Because it is such a different animal and thoroughly affects the way you will work, it is best to watch one in action. I spent one year going to a nearby plywood dealer to watch his crews operate their Altendorf.

What I noticed immediately were three important factors (to me, at least). Speed, safety, repeatability. It was almost like watching a cookie cutter at work.

Pick several brands, call their distributor and ask for the name of a local machine-owner.

Gary Curtis

[Chris Barton]

I have a Robland and my choice was related to it's combo capabilities. By the way, I really enjoy your music, but not much new by you in 40 years...

[John Russell]

What I noticed immediately were three important factors (to me, at least). Speed, safety, repeatability. It was almost like watching a cookie cutter at work.

Gary Curtis

I have been thinking through a combination machine and the issues of speed, safety, and repeatability are also important to me, although safety and repeatability are the tops on my list. I have seen several Felders operate and they seem fine and I am sure MM and other brands also are good machines. My question is not about brands but the general features of safety and repeatability on sliding saws or combination machines.

Can the same repeatability of a slider be achived with an Incra or Jointech type fence system or a Beis system with a digital readout? Or is there something else about the slider/combination machines that adds to accuracy AND repeatability?

Does a slider /combination machine offer additional safety over a cabinet saw with a riving knife and or an electronic brake system such as the SawStop offers? So, if you have a Sawstop or other cabinet saw with a riving knife, are there other safety advantages to a slider type saw?

Thanks
JR

[Vic Damone]

Chris, Responding to my moniker you unwittingly showed your age or at least your knowledge of the times. Something you should be proud off Chris, good for you.

Vito, aka Vic, recorded his last album "Again" in 1995. His last compilation was released in 2001 and he has a rather nice official website if your interested. I buy and sell vinyl LP's.

I liquidated my shop back in the early 90's and with the exception of the homemade saw I find myself taking the same path as Jay Brewer did and I'd like to avoid this last mistake.

Thanks for your responses

Vic

[Jim Becker]

John, my thoughts on the repeatability are as follows:

With your workpiece being stationary on the wagon and even clamped down, repeatability is a given...you are placing your workpiece exactly in a known location relative to the blade and it doesn't deviate even a proverbial hair as you move it through the cut. Every cut can be exactly the same as the previous.

As to safety, outside of a conventional rip, your hand is never near the blade--and that's about as safe as you can get during a cut. And the required fast braking of the blade means you are less likely to catch the still-revolving cutter when you go to clear an off-cut...one of the primary times when folks get injured on a table saw...after they turn it off and forget to wait for it to spin down. It's obviously not the same as the SS "it's down and out" safety feature, but adds a meaningful safety element. Oh, and the format sliders all have riving knives that stay on the saw pretty much full time.

[Steven Wilson]

Clamp material to slider, move hands away, push assembly through blade. You and your hands are far away from the blade. Much safer by design than what you do on an American style table saw, even one with an electric brake.

The Incra, Beis, and Jointech fences are fine (even nicer than the fence systems on the Euro combo's) but that isn't the area where an American style tablesaw is deficient at. American style cabinet saws are deficient in cross-cut accuracy. The precision you can cross cut at is determined by a very small miter slot. A 3' long 1/2" or so wide miter slot does not provide the same accurate base as a 8' long 8" wide sliding table carrige. Even if you make the ultimate crosscut sled for your table saw, it will not even come close to the accuracy of the smallest sliding table saw. Since I've gone slider I've come to expect perfect alignment in glueups with no need for cross carcas clamping. That is the direct result of being able to cut square panels of any reasonable size (say up to 10'x3'). Back in my PM66 days with a very well setup crosscut sled I noticed some problems with larger carcas construction. Not so much on drawers and such but on larger dressers and bookcases. It all comes down to being able to get that sled into perfect alignment, not really possible with any sled using a miter slot. Fairly easy to do with a long carrige. So now, I can accurately dimension and square any panel and it doesn't matter if that panel is plywood, solid stock, or a more typical frame and panel setup.

[John Russell]

Jim / Steve,

I have used a slider once and it was cutting panels and squaring up sheet goods. I get more confused when the task is to rip hardwoods of different widths. I am going to a class/demo next week using combination machines, so maybe that chance to see a project done start to finish will help my understanding of ripping and repeat cuts.

Steve, how would you assess the accuracy of a guided saw system (EZ or Fetool) in comparison to a slider and/or cabinet saw?

I use a guided saw for plywood cuts rather than do them on my table saw and they seem ok. I have seen some folks suggest that guided saw sytem with a table saw with a 32" incra/jointech type fence can produce accurate cuts for carcas construction, but I am curious about your experience comparing it to a slider.

Thanks

[Jim Becker]

John, a guided system will work very well for dealing with sheet goods and carcass construction. "Repeatability" is a little more difficult, depending on the system and options/accessories than a slider, but certainly doable. There are some nice innovations in that areas relative to the guided systems. That said, for me in the long term, I decided that the slider was where I wanted to go...so I did and am happy with the decision. Your needs are unique to you and your decision must be based on them. And you can cut the same parts all day long exactly the same with a slider with easy setup if that's something you need to do.

Ripping is very different on a slider when you want to avoid the traditional rip fence for all but certain cuts. But with a simple (or elaborate if you choose) parallel jig, you gain great repeatability there, too, and workpieces with glue-joint ready straightness and surfaces due to the ability to clamp the material for the cut quickly and easily. There is no "human hand" variation involved as there is with a rip fence.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I was wondering at what point did you realized a sliding table saw made more sense than a cabinet saw?

As soon as I realized what doors it opened up. For a while I was misled by the oft repeated (and entirely wrong) refrain that they are best at processing sheet goods. That might be true of a slider with a beastly heavy table like the old Iron Olivers but not the new extruded aluminum tables.
They are best at - - - everything.


Is it easy to do smallish work on a slider? Absolutely~!!
See my little rock box in progress here the parts are 1/4" inch by less than 2" long by 1" wide.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=55076

Every single one of those compound angle cuts was done on a full length slider holding tolerances of less than .005" (usually .003 max) and angular less than .5 of a second.



(Next question requires singing)Huh?


Is there anything you can do, I can do easier- with a table saw?Not a thing. The slider makes everything easier and safer. One thing a slider does is to get you to go about things differently. For example I almost never use the rip fence. I rip on the slider getting better truer more square cuts every time. The large adjustable cross cut fences allow you to change your angle of cross cut from 90 top anything and back again without bothering to check the angle AND they hold heavy clumsy or oddly balanced work for you making cuts that would be difficult & dangerous in any other type of saw a safe & one handed operation.

Safety? Sliders keep you away from the blade. Say you are going to do a complicated difficult cut and you need to hold the work piece securely, or you will be doing a great many of the same pieces. You make a jig & clamp everything to the table and slide through the cut never getting your hands near the blade.

The table has a T slot ( at least one) making it really easy to use it more like a milling machine. It's way safer in very many ways.

[Gary Curtis]

Can the same repeatability of a slider be achived with an Incra or Jointech type fence system or a Beis system with a digital readout? Or is there something else about the slider/combination machines that adds to accuracy AND repeatability?

Does a slider /combination machine offer additional safety over a cabinet saw with a riving knife and or an electronic brake system such as the SawStop offers? So, if you have a Sawstop or other cabinet saw with a riving knife, are there other safety advantages to a slider type saw?

Thanks
JR

John,

My own slider is the one made by General for their right-tilt cabinet saws. And thus is not nearly as full-featured as a genuine European Format saw. And I wasn't speaking about full combination machines, but saws or saw/shaper combos.

I think the the Incra or Jointech offer equal repeatability. And probably the Jessem slider too. I am referring to flip stops, and also to the accuracy of all mechanisms in positioning wood over the blade.

Safety on the saw comes from being able to stand far to the left. An area they call The Operator Side, in Europe. A person standing there is 3 feet out of the "line of fire" of a kickback, and unable to get their hands mixed up with the blade. The true riving knife and dust-collecting safety guard add more safety. I have no personal experience with shapers or the planer/jointer features of these machines.

Gary C.

[John Russell]

Gary,

I blurred the focus of this thread with my comments about combination machines - for me the decision is about changing from an almost traditional table saw (SS) to a slider and jointer planer or a combinaiton machine. The slider is the part of the decision that is unclear for me. The combination jointer planer will save me space, maybe a combination machine will save more space.

The issues about safety and repeatability for the slider are still central for me. Do the European sliders offer a qualitatively different level of precision and repeatibility than can be achieved by an Incra/Jointech type system with stops, digital fence, etc...?

Since, ripping solid stock is something most of do to one degree or another, are the slider advantages substantially different? It sounds as if they are.

The value of a thread such as this is that folks with experience moving from a contractor or cabinet saw to a slider can share their thoughts and experiences about the benefits and liabilities of the move.

[Cary Swoveland]

...Is there anything you can do, I can do easier- with a table saw?...

1. Rip narrow boards.
2. Walk around it.
3. Use the space to the left and rear for other shop stuff.
4. Move it.

RE #1, on most sliders, the right side of the slider is right next to the blade. If the slider is not perfectly flat with the table (some owners intentionally set the slider a tad higher, to eliminate sliding friction), it can be difficult getting a square cut when ripping narrow boards.

RE #4, I'm comparing my TS to the Minimax combo I had previously. Though both are on castors, it was such a pain to move my MM that I just left it in one place. My TS is easy to move, so I can normally use it in one location, and then move it temporarily if I have a particularly long or wide cut to make. That allows for more efficient use of space.

There is one other consideration that I have yet to put my finger on. I may be in the minority, but I just find it more enjoyable using a TS than than a big slider. I think part of it is that I am a lot closer to the TS than I was to my MM. When I used the slider on the MM, I set up the cut, clamped down the material, and watched the cut being made from afar. Call me crazy, but I just like standing right at the machine when I'm operating it.

Cary

[John Russell]

Cary,
The "moving it" issue is one to consider to some of us. The weight of a slider or combo machine is substantial in comparison to a table saw. For example a MM Cu300 Smart is about 1300 pounds and a 315S slider is about 1800 pounds. A stout table saw is about 600-700 pounds.

I know that some slider/combo machine users have good approaches for moving these heavy machines, but it should be part of the thought process for anyone considering a slider.
John

[Gary Curtis]

The primary safety precaution with any saw is to use a fence -- at all times. That's where a sliding table reaches a higher level of precision.

With any fence, you are moving wood across a steel (aluminum) surface to attack the blade in a straight line. But fences have some drawbacks. You might veer away from it. And your fence might not be true, are aligned properly.

With a sliding table, crosscuts are made using something that replaces your the relatively (don't get mad here meagerly sized mitre gauge --- it's called a crosscut fence. It is robust, and the table bears the weight of the wood. You can clamp the wood to the table, just to ensure that the orientation of the board does not shift during the cut. Only one miter gauge I know of has a clamping device.

But when it comes to ripping, the advantages increase. You don't need to use a fence at all, because clamping the wood to the slider serves to guide the board. The 'materials-handling' is accomplished much better with the combined weight of the board and sliding table to guide the cut. Kickbacks are minimized because the force of the combined sliding table/lumber can offset the forces of the blade. And hold the wood in a true straight line.

But this doesn't answer the question of whether you need a sliding table. Again, I say, watch some videos.:p

Gary Curtis

[Phil Pritchard]

Cary,
The "moving it" issue is one to consider to some of us. The weight of a slider or combo machine is substantial in comparison to a table saw. For example a MM Cu300 Smart is about 1300 pounds and a 315S slider is about 1800 pounds. A stout table saw is about 600-700 pounds.
Whilst my Altendorf F45 (a full industrial machine) is 1050 kg (2300 lbs),. It requires a pallet truck to move it, but beware, if you start bumping these saws around that way it can and does affect accuracy.

The plusses have almost all been mentioned, but the minusses are that you'll get used (fed up with) to talking a hike round to the back of the machine every so often to unload when working alone - if you are working with small parts this becomes a royal pain. Full-size sliders are really designed to be operated by TWO people, a saw man and an unloader. In our shop we've got the slider and a cast-iron table saw (a White, very similar to the sliding table Olivers of yore). If dado heads are an issue then sliders generally don't allow them. Not a minus for me as I don't use one on a table saw in any case. Finally they do take up a heck of a lot of space.

I switched to using a slider when the volume of shhet goods I was dealing went to more than 3 sheets a day. I love my Alt and wouldn't be without it, but even it isn't perfect

Phil

[Vic Damone]

While everybody's comments have been very informative, Cliff's and Cary's comments seemed to fill in the the big blanks for me, thanks everybody!

There's still one concept I can't picture yet. Example: You have a piece of stock that's say 5" wide by anywhere between 6'-10' long and 3/4 thick. You need to rip it into 1" strips. Does this stock get clamped to the slider lengthwise (and am I limited to the length of the slider) and moved over to touch the fence that's set at 1" to the right of the blade (or how do you determine the depth of cut), then it's run through the saw?

I realize I've gotta see one of these first hand somehow. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, any suggestions?

[Gary Curtis]

vic,

Next weekend Felder of Sacramento is holding a 2-day seminar on using sliding table saws and combination machines. The class will build a table, I believe.

That's one hour to the East of you on I-80. Mark Duginske is teaching the class. I'm going. Duginske is the author of books and DVDs on shop technique and use of machinery. And he owns Felder equipment. Last year, Kelly Mehler taught the same class.

Call Mike at 916 375-3190. There might be space available.

Gary Curtis

[Dan Lautner]

I see how a slider is superior to a TS or a festool for quickly dimensioning sheet material. I think a TS 75 and a 10 foot rail would be quicker and better for straight line ripping. The one area the sliding TS seems weak is for ripping long narrow strips (one of the more common uses for a TS). Do you use the rip fence just like you do with a regular TS? If you do, where do you stand when ripping long narrow pieces? It seems the slider would get in the way.

Dan

[Jay Brewer]

I see how a slider is superior to a TS or a festool for quickly dimensioning sheet material. I think a TS 75 and a 10 foot rail would be quicker and better for straight line ripping. The one area the sliding TS seems weak is for ripping long narrow strips (one of the more common uses for a TS). Do you use the rip fence just like you do with a regular TS? If you do, where do you stand when ripping long narrow pieces? It seems the slider would get in the way.

Dan

Hi Dan, maybe I can answer your question. The only shortcoming of a long slider is, if you want to use the rip fence, you have to walk around the sliding table everytime you want to adjust it. I solved this problem by installing a CNC automated rip fence. As for ripping narrow stock, I rip tons of face frames and rails for raised panel doors, not much difference than a cabinet saw. The sliding table itself is only about 15" wide, so its not a long reach to rip using the rip fence. It would be like standing to the left side of a cabinet saw with the left extension wing removed.

When I ordered my slider, I had reservations about ripping with it, so I kept my cabinet saw, after about two weeks of setting up the slider and getting used to standing beside the machine ( which is a safer position ), I sold the caninet saw, and havent regreted it yet. hope this helps.

[Phil Pritchard]

I think a TS 75 and a 10 foot rail would be quicker and better for straight line ripping.
Most sliders have a facility for what is called a ripping shoe on the lead end of the sliding table. It is just a v-shaped piece of metal which traps the leading edge of the timber so that you make the rip on the carraige and not against the fence. The limitation is that you're restricted to the maximum length of your carraige , i.e. 8 or 10ft, although that's rarely a restriction. Without the automated rip fence that Jay uses you then need to do a lot more walking around if you start doing lots of different width rips, though. I do sometimes find the front support of the sliding table getting in my way which is why I retained a small conventional table saw as well. If I were pushed for space then I'd can the standard saw obver the slider any day, though.


The one area the sliding TS seems weak is for ripping long narrow strips (one of the more common uses for a TS). Do you use the rip fence just like you do with a regular TS? If you do, where do you stand when ripping long narrow pieces? It seems the slider would get in the way.
For narrow strips it is necessary to stand to the left of the machine and reach over the sliding carraige, however, if your material is shorter than the slider (i.e. 8ft long or less) then that can be used to carry the weight of the material and be more consistent. For more accuracy on slightly wider strips (3in and upwards) I actually employ a secondary ripping measure called a "Palin" by Altendorf (other slider manufacturers do similar devices). This allows me to set-up the cross cut fence stop at the front of the carraige (the fence is normally placed at the front of the carraige, not the rear as in the aftermarket sliding tables) and the Palin with the same setting at the rear then just hold down pieces with a couple of toggle cramps and push through the rip blade with my hands well away from the blade.

Phil

[Dick Sylvan]

Gary, hope to see you there. I'm flying in from Houston hoping to learn how to use the Hammer I have on order. BTW, I signed up yesterday.