MM16 - is it just me?

[Brad Schmid]

I'll try to condense this story down.

History:

Saw is 2 yrs old with probably 4-6 hrs of total run time.

I bought it prior to the Houston Woodworking show. It was completely assembled by MM, brought to the show for display (was not ran, nor did it have a plug installed). When I got it home, the first thing I noticed was the fence was out of perpendicular with the table by 3/32" over its 4-5" height. It wasn't machined right. MM sent me a new one. Cool. Then, the table wasn't flat, even after working with MM support on the adjustments, it couldn't be made flat. They wouldn't send another, but asked me to have it machined locally and they would pay. Well, I didn't have the time to mess with it, nor did I have a local machine shop to go to, so I gave up on it and am still using it in this condition. I blame me for this one.

Fast forward to a few months ago: I start having problems with the electrical switch. The "on" pushbutton sticks in and won't come back out unless I disassemble the switch and pull it out. I submit a request through the MM website and I got a call back within a day saying to take apart the switch and clean it. Ok, so I do that. It works 2-3 more times. I go to use it 2 weeks ago, and the switch sticks again. I take it apart, clean it (fyi - there was never any visible dirt or dust in there, ever), this time I can't get the dumb thing to even come back out again. So, I call MM support again, nobody answers, I leave a message, I get no call back. I wait 3 days. I call again, this time I ask for a specific individual whom I've worked with before (sales and support). He is there and we hash through the whole thing. We both agree there's a mechanical problem with the switch. He says my problem is because I don't use the saw enough. I say ok, fine, I'm sick of messing with this thing and I'm not about to tear the switch apart every time I want to use it. Is there another option? He says yes, there's a newer switch that's better but I'll have to buy it. Worn out by now, I say ok, tell me how much and lets order. Well, I need to get in touch with "MM parts" for that, ok no problem, he takes my number and says they'll call me with the info and I can order over the phone. Great. fast forward 4 business days, I receive no call...

Mind you, I probably could be a little upset, but I'm not, and never conveyed as such either. I just want the thing to work when I need it.
What does it take? Is it just me? All I want is for it to work when I need it....

BTW - switch doesn't work because I don't use it enough? I don't think I buy it... I think it's a cheap switch. I've never had this problem with anything else.

Any advice?
Also, anybody have any problems with these new switches?

Assuming I can find somebody at MM to finally order the new version switch for me, I hope it eliminates my problems...

[Doug Shepard]

...
BTW - switch doesn't work because I don't use it enough? I don't think I buy it... I think it's a cheap switch. I've never had this problem with anything else.
....

That sounds pretty lame to me. There's been quite a number of WW forum posts regarding bad swtch problems. I went through the same thing, but mine had electrical issues as well. A replacement switch finally solved the problem but I cross my fingers a bit every time I turn it on.


...
He says yes, there's a newer switch that's better but I'll have to buy it.
....
They ought to send one of these free of charge to every MM BS owner. It stinks that you cant even get one by paying for it. Hope their CS gets it together. I think I recall a couple other posts in the last few months that suggest they're slipping some in that area.
Hope they get you fixed up soon.

[Howie French]

Brad, sorry I can't be of any real help, I don't think I would have been so willing to accept, "...problem is you don't use it enough" I have gone periods of a few months without turning my mm16 on and off,never a issue.

Between not returning phone calls and telling you.. "you need to purchase a newer switch" (and oh btw, "the switch is better" umh, wonder why they went with a better switch ?), I think their customer service is going in the
wrong direction.

good luck, hope all turns out ok

Howie

[scott spencer]

That sounds like poor service to me, and is not typical of what I normally hear about MM. I'd email them a link to this thread and invite them to participate in the discussion....it'd be interesting to see how they deal with it, and hopefully beneficial for everyone. Nothing wrong with a little persuasion to do what's right. :D

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Brad, I had the exact same story as you and like you had a table that wasn't flat. They sent me another and it wasn't flat. So I feel your pain there. They also gave me the same offer on grinding the table. I called MANY places but they all wanted way more than the $100 MiniMax offered.
So like you, I never had it done as I just couldn't find anybody to do it.

Then one day I used my saw and it kept shutting off on me. I have one of the original poorly designed switches but I was able to get it working by turning a small dial inside the switch. If I recall correctly it had something to do with amperage through the switch. I agree they should have replaced all these bad switches gratis.

So my story is very much like yours and I can certainly sympathise. I don't know why this company has such a good reputation here or anywhere else. I paid a lot of money like you and have never been satisfied with the saw. I think MiniMax is WAY overrated on their quality and service. At least that's my experience and isn't it funny that yours is the same? If you have the time just keep at it if you can stand it. I think I'll sell mine and use another company for another. If you you bought a Honda and it was defective would you buy another? If they couldn't/wouldn't fix it, would you buy another? I don't think they deserve any repeat business.

Sorry for this rant everybody but this post just hit a nerve. Maybe this will save somebody else some pain and misery with this company.

Oh, and I have never had this much trouble with any other of my tools in my fairly well equpped shop.

Good luck with your problems. Alan

[John Scane]

I have a MM20 and when I got it about 3 years ago I had several problems. One of them was a bad switch which was replaced by MM. The other and far worse was a problem with "blade wobble" ( I posted about it when it happened so you can do a search of my posts to read about it ) Anyway the customer support was great and they even sent out a rep to help me fix it.....
My saw works OK but I feel it was not worth the money I spent. To this day there is still a lot of front to back movement with every blade I use. This is really only a problem when I want smooth cuts............LOL

If I had to do it over I would probably look at other machines.

My 2 cents

[Doug Mason]

I have had similar problems. My MM16 is cutting great now--but I doubt I'll ever order from MM again due to what they have put me through (rust, out-of sq table, 85 degree fence, etc!).

[Phil Thien]

Wow. I will never buy MM products until I see more favorable posts about their quality and support. Stuff like this really bugs me.

[Roy Wall]

This is a disturbing post.....

I feel the machines should run 20 years @ 10 hrs a day till something gives. They are marketed as reliable, durable machines.

I see from their point of view the saw is technically out of warranty - thus the payment for a new switch. However, it is well documented this saw has a HISTORY of elec. problems (including the switch) and I wish MM would view this as a "recall item" and provide owners with problems a new switch at no charge. I know that's a LOT of MM16's.....but if they are defective from the factory....that's not right....IMHO. These are expensive band saws.

Perhaps the Mother Ship across the ocean is binding the hands in Austin?

I'd give em' another call....go to Jim Strand...President of MM...and see if this issue can be settled.

Brad - keep us posted please.

[Juan Rivera]

Hello Brad,

Here's a list of all the quality problems that came with my MM16 (new version 4.8hp) 2 years ago:

1. Broken pallet which bent the brake pedal.
2. Wired from factory with 12 gauge wiring instead 10 gauge as they claimed the machine requires.
3. Improperly sized switch (20A vs 25A required) which burnt out after
three startups.
4. Motor labeled for less than marketed horsepower which they claim was an improper label.
5. Table was dished more than double their allowed tollerances.

Since I reacted under the warranty period and threatened to return my machine I got another table from an older model (still fits) that was dished half as much. I got a new switch rated for 25A and I got a new label with the proper power rating:confused: .

This is to much work for a machine that cost this much money.:mad:

If you find a solution to your table please advise.

Regards,

Juan

[Montgomery Scott]

I've had my MM16 since the end of 2005. I have yet to have any problems with the saw. The worst thing about it was the microswitch for the foot brake was slightly misadjusted when it arrived but a few turns of the wrench fixed it. Never had a problem with the switch, though I know it's been a problem for many. Table was very flat. It's cut everything I've thrown at it including 12" thick madrone. Based on my experience with the machine and the technical department I would easily buy it again, though their combo machines are much to expensive for me to justify buying .

[Brad Schmid]

I've read lots of problems with the switches over the past 2 yrs, but I see it goes beyond that. Unfortunately I see the theme coming together here in this thread.

Thank you all for your responses and suggestions. Like me, I think you guys are reasonable in your expectations and placed your trust in well respected (at least at one time) machine and distibutor. It's too bad things are turning out like they are... I'm just glad I kept my little 14" Griz bandsaw as a backup. Sad.

Roy - I will take your advice and call and ask for Jim Strand tomorrow. I absolutely hate to have to take my time to escalate to MM management to get something like this solved that could be taken care of by a good sales or customer service department.

Montgomery - I don't think you'll find too many people that are dissatisfied with the way the saw cuts (although it seems John does have problems), if you can get it tuned, running and keep it running... I'm sure we all hope you never have any of these problems.

Parting thought: To many of us, our time is far more valuable than the initial cost of a tool purchase. I want to buy a machine, be able to use it when I need it, and forget about it otherwise. It's why I was willing to part with a sizeable amount of money (to me) to buy this tool. I wonder if one can actually expect to find this anymore:confused: I didn't get the peace of mind I thought I was buying.

[Bob Luciano]

May I suggest you send them an email or certified letter stating you are going to list your complaints with Epinions I have done that with problem vendors so far works everytime hope this helps

[Brian Gumpper]

WOW, disturbing post is right. I haven't really tuned up my MM16 since I got it late last year so I better do that and get my own list going if need be.

[Chris McKimson]

The MM16 has been my dream small shop bandsaw for quite a while now. Fortunately, this thread woke me up before I ordered one.

Chris

[Roger Barga]

Thank you for starting this thread - this is poor customer service and I will do my best to avoid the situation by scratching them off my list for my next bandsaw.

rb

[Doug Shepard]

I feel compelled a bit to add some comments for folks adding MM to any personal blacklist. Despite the switch problems I had, I would still recommend the saw and I'm under the impression that while they seem to have had a few CS problems lately, they generally have very good CS. For comparison, go to the Knots Forum. There are numerous extremely long threads there from Laguna (no personal experience with them) owners with horrible CS experiences. To be fair some of the posts on those threads are from folks happy with their Laguna's (and I dont want to start a MM vs Laguna war here) but in comparison MM comes out looking pretty good. My biggest beef with MM is really lousy documentation. If they intend to sell mail-order only to the general public, they really need to improve tha manuals that go out with their machines so that folks doing WW primarily on weekends can diagnose problems and fix things. Us weekend woodworkers end up losing a lot of time, having to wait until weekdays to contact their CS for issues that could/should be addressed better in the manuals.

[Steve Rowe]

I feel compelled a bit to add some comments for folks adding MM to any personal blacklist. Despite the switch problems I had, I would still recommend the saw and I'm under the impression that while they seem to have had a few CS problems lately, they generally have very good CS. For comparison, go to the Knots Forum. There are numerous extremely long threads there from Laguna (no personal experience with them) owners with horrible CS experiences. To be fair some of the posts on those threads are from folks happy with their Laguna's (and I dont want to start a MM vs Laguna war here) but in comparison MM comes out looking pretty good. My biggest beef with MM is really lousy documentation. If they intend to sell mail-order only to the general public, they really need to improve tha manuals that go out with their machines so that folks doing WW primarily on weekends can diagnose problems and fix things. Us weekend woodworkers end up losing a lot of time, having to wait until weekdays to contact their CS for issues that could/should be addressed better in the manuals.
Hmmm? I have a 7 year old LT-18. Never had need of CS from Laguna on it. Perfectly flat table. Perfectly square fence. Always starts. Never had to adjust any foot brake microswitch. Makes perfect cuts everytime. I really get annoyed when folks point out how much better MM is at CS than Laguna. No war intended here either but, I beg to differ with how well MM comes out looking on this subject. I have a friend with a MM bandsaw and he told me the long saga which is amazingly similar to those reported on this thread. A search of the archives also reveals more. Now Laguna is not perfect but, if you look at the problems reported on bandsaws between the two brands there is absolutely no comparison. Many of these issues with the MM have been pointed out on this very thread, when I upgrade to a larger bandsaw, I definitely know what brand it will not be and I have a pretty good idea what brand it will be. And for what ever its worth, every European machine I have ever owned (several different brands) has had lousy documentation.

[Aaron Beaver]

Its sad to hear this, but it doesn't make me mark off MM for any more purchases.

I have a FS41 and when it arrived it had a cracked switch plate and one of the handles to tighten down something was broke. Gave my sales rep a call and he got me in touch with the parts department and sent me everything. Then when I actually got the switch I called again and a technician walked me through changing the entire switch and even stayed on the phone with me until I got it running.

I have even called/emailed my sales rep just to ask basic operating questions on the machine because I couldn't find it in the manual or understand it. I always got a call or email back.

After going through my experiences with them I myself would still buy something from them. I would hope I get the same amount of customer service on what ever I would buy from them. I would hope all sales reps treats their customers the same, but maybe not.

[David Cramer]

Personally, this thread scares me a little bit. I too am/was saving for a really decent bandsaw. I may now change my strategy and opt for a less expensive one for light duty and see what the future holds as far as a more expensive purchase.

Those who have had bad experiences and talked about all of the problems they've encountered shouldn't have to deal with customer service for that long. If there is a problem, they should be taken care of pronto, in my opinion anyways. That is way too much money to be spending on a tool and to have that much down time. Then to have to personally fiddle with the machine to get it to perform as well as a $2,000 bandsaw should (I think that's what they cost) out of the box is just a little discouraging to say the least.

I am sure they make a decent bandsaw and that most don't get delivered with that many problems or obviously they wouldn't be in business. But when things don't go right, why should a customer be taking a table to a local machine shop to get it ground flat??? That is just not right, even if as a customer you don't mind doing it. If they compensate you, then obviously that is different. They should send out a new one and have the delivery guy pick up the defective one if MM wants it back to inspect. Maybe it's just me, but I will be rethinking my bandsaw purchase for sure, thanks to your post Brad and to some of the replies that followed. I hope it works out well for ya Brad.

Dave

[Gary Herrmann]

Recently, the motor on my MM16 died. Bad bearing. It was out of warranty. They sent me a replacement, it also had a bad bearing. They sent me another replacement and it got damaged in shipping. They sent me a 3rd replacement, and that one was fine. Tech service even put a new pulley on the shaft so I wouldn't have to pull the old one off.

Admittedly a frustrating experience, but it happens. Through it all, I got very good customer service from tech service and my sales rep. They shipped all the motors I didn't use back at their cost. The table is dead flat, and I have had no switch problems at all.

Will I buy from them again? Yes, I'd love to get one of their big jointer/planers some day. If I had the room (well, and the $), I'd get one of their sliders.

Once a company sells enough items, theres going to be some variability in the quality of the sales and cs experience. Except maybe LV. Those people continue to amaze me.

Everyone has to make up their own mind about who they will and won't buy from.

[Aaron Montgomery]

I purchased my MM16 3-4 years ago and had a similar experience with rust and customer service. At the time, everyone raved about their CS, which just left me all the more confused. It's not that they didn't talk the talk or that they didn't make things right in the end, but the execution just left a lot to be desired. I won't chronicle my experience as it's several years old now and hopefully does not reflect current practice. (but it sounds like it does)

I agree with several of the other posters in that this saw needs more refinement and better QC. Stop adding HP and resaw height and fix the things that need fixing.

BTW - I barely use my saw and it starts every time that I ask it to.

[Jim Becker]

Brad, you want Jim Strain...not "Strand".

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Then, the table wasn't flat, even after working with MM support on the adjustments, it couldn't be made flat.

Sounds like the beginning of another MM horror story. for some reason it's just their band saws I see horror stories about. I have read accounts where MM had gon way far to get it it right but the band saws keep popping up and it's almost always an issue with some stubborn customer service moron who simply refuses to go the extra ten feet.

Do you think MM has a separate Cust' Serv' Dept' for Band Saws and that person is like bi-polar or a paranoid Schitzo' otr something?


They wouldn't send another, but asked me to have it machined locally and they would pay. Another wacky thing. Why impose on the customer to schlep their defective equipment around??




I start having problems with the electrical switch. The "on" pushbutton sticks in and won't come back out unless I disassemble the switch and pull it out. I submit a request through the MM website and I got a call back within a day saying to take apart the switch and clean it. Ok, so I do that. It works 2-3 more times. I go to use it 2 weeks ago, and the switch sticks again. I take it apart, clean it (fyi - there was never any visible dirt or dust in there, ever), this time I can't get the dumb thing to even come back out again. So, I call MM support again, nobody answers, I leave a message, I get no call back. I wait 3 days. And that is the point I'd be considering sending them a letter they'd notice 'cause it'd look exactly like a Summons and Complaint.


He says yes, there's a newer switch that's better but I'll have to buy it.

YAh Yah you are out of warantee so technically it's the right thing that you gotta pay. But for all the nonsense you've been through they should comp it just for the sake of not having you on internet forums talking about their customer service failures mach8ining errors and crummy table tops.

[/quote] fast forward 4 business days, I receive no call...[/quote]

Ouch The hits just keep on coming.
It's way past time you were writing short stern letters to MM management. This is a Customer service failure that just won't end. It could be fixed with one memo from the bosses.


BTW - switch doesn't work because I don't use it enough? I don't think I buy it... I think it's a cheap switch. I've never had this problem with anything else.

That is not merely BS it is an absolute lie deliberately and willfully calculated to make you feel like you are at fault. I seriously doubt this if MM policy I think you got really lucky and have found the world's worst Cust Serv people.

Go over their heads and write a letter to management.
They need to get a paper route.


Also there is a MM rep ( I forget his name) who is a member of this forum and all my interactions with him have been positive. He may be able to steer you.

[Mike Weaver]

Its sad to hear this, but it doesn't make me mark off MM for any more purchases.

I have a FS41 and when it arrived it had a cracked switch plate and one of the handles to tighten down something was broke. Gave my sales rep a call and he got me in touch with the parts department and sent me everything. Then when I actually got the switch I called again and a technician walked me through changing the entire switch and even stayed on the phone with me until I got it running.

I have even called/emailed my sales rep just to ask basic operating questions on the machine because I couldn't find it in the manual or understand it. I always got a call or email back.

After going through my experiences with them I myself would still buy something from them. I would hope I get the same amount of customer service on what ever I would buy from them. I would hope all sales reps treats their customers the same, but maybe not.This is similar to my experience - all questions answered promptly, and I get "pinged" every now and again from my sales rep asking how I like the saw .

As for the "out of flat tables"... A bandsaw isn't a table saw, IMHO, and a couple thou on a table won't make much difference, in my opinion. If I could get my work that close, it'd move a few thousandths by the next morning after I cut it. There's more than a few thou drift in the blade on all cuts.

It's wood, not metal, and it's a bandsaw not a jointer.

Dare I say this, but get on with cutting wood - it you don't get [I]great results and technique isn't the issue, THEN start troubleshooting.

Again, just my $.02 and I really am not trying to offend anyone.

Anyway - if I were in the market, I'd buy from them again. I bought my MM16 to cut big wood & it does that just fine. :D

Cheers,
-Mike

[Brad Schmid]

Brad, you want Jim Strain...not "Strand".

Thank you for that correction Jim.
I appreciate it.
Cheers

[Roy Wall]

Thank you for that correction Jim.
I appreciate it.
Cheers

My bad on that one.....sorry!!!!

Anywho, I think there will be a happy ending to this story. I'm very satisfied with the CS I've received.....Sam Blasco @ MM is the MAN!

[Brad Schmid]

..........

This is similar to my experience - all questions answered promptly, and I get "pinged" every now and again from my sales rep asking how I like the saw .

I used to get the same calls

As for the "out of flat tables"... A bandsaw isn't a table saw, IMHO, and a couple thou on a table won't make much difference, in my opinion. If I could get my work that close, it'd move a few thousandths by the next morning after I cut it. There's more than a few thou drift in the blade on all cuts.

It's wood, not metal, and it's a bandsaw not a jointer.

It's more than a "couple thou" so you made an assumption here, but as you notice, I let it slide with MM anyway. The only time it's really annoying is when I'm resawing for guitar bodies for a friend of mine. There's alot of hand cleanup work. It doesn't bother me with something I can jam through the planer.

Dare I say this, but get on with cutting wood - it you don't get [I]great results and technique isn't the issue, THEN start troubleshooting.

Ummm, I wish I could "get on with cutting wood". I think we're past the troubleshooting part...

Again, just my $.02 and I really am not trying to offend anyone.

No offense taken. If I got offended easily, I'd probably be upset about this whole situation. As it stands, I just want my saw to function reliably and am willing to be polite with MM until I've exhausted all viable options.

Anyway - if I were in the market, I'd buy from them again. I bought my MM16 to cut big wood & it does that just fine. :D

Cheers,
-Mike

I'm beginning to think the MM name and reputation is becoming the victim of inconsistent customer service more than anything else. Obviously I just need to keep trying until I find the right person.
Cheers

[Alan Tolchinsky]

"As for the "out of flat tables"... A bandsaw isn't a table saw, IMHO, and a couple thou on a table won't make much difference, in my opinion. If I could get my work that close, it'd move a few thousandths by the next morning after I cut it. There's more than a few thou drift in the blade on all cuts."


My first table was so out of flat that I couldn't get the blade perpendicular to the whole table at one time. I had to chose which side of the table was at a right angle to the blade. And the second table they sent me was the same. I do bandsaw boxes and this problem made it very hard to do a good job so I resorted to putting a piece of MDF on the table. I guess my table was more than a "couple thou" out of flat.

[Steven Evans]

I don't have a lot to offer on the BS. It seems there were problems with the switch. Seems MM has a newer style switch to fix the problem. I don't know anything about the tables. I have a MM20 and have not had any problems with it at all. I bought it July 2005. I also have a MM 410 S model an just got the ME 30HFE bander. I have needed and always received great CS from the folks at MM. I know Jim S was out a few months last year and was hard to get a hold of. Things are getting back on track now though.

[Jim Becker]

I know Jim S was out a few months last year and was hard to get a hold of.

Yes, he was out for medical reasons.

[Chuck Powell]

I have owned the MM16 for about a year and had read of problems with the motor contactor and also door/brake switches. I didn't have a problem, mine was shipped with the right model I guess.

The table out of flat could be a problem if it happened to be at the discharge of the cutout at the blade insert.

The only things I had to do was track the blade (minor adjustment on lower wheel tilt) and notch out the blade guard.

My fence is not dead on 90 degrees but is quite close.

The 12 AWG wiring in the machine is normal. Runs are very short so resistance is negligible.

Knowing how I am, I would have returned the darn thing and challenged payment with the CC company if I had ran into the bad contactor issues. I can get very good used contactors from work off of equipment that is upgraded and slated for salvage.

Sorry to hear of the problems.

Chuck

[Bruce Page]

I hate to hear about these problems, especially from a very good manufacture like MiniMax.
For the record, my 3 year old MM16 has been bullet proof. The one time that I did need CS, the CS was fast & painless.

[Joe Mioux]

I am a happy MM16 owner - new version-- , no problems.

However, I have noticed something over the couple - three years I have been hanging out here.

There are alot of happy MM16 BS owners and the MM16 has been a standard bearer for many other companies to compete against. Frequently, I think happy owners may mis-communicate or interested listeners (potential buyers) may mis-interpret the qualities of this bandsaw.

It's a bandsaw.

It is a simple machine and it cuts wood.

There are alot less expensive saws out there that will satisfy most any hobbyist woodworker.

I think the enthusiasm of current owners may overhype this saw. I don't believe this is done on purpose, but just out of brand loyalty and out of a very good relationship we MM owners develop with our salespeople.

It is a very good saw and I can't imagine ever wanting (needing?) another band saw.

If the guys in Austin are worth their weight in reputation, they should fix any design/manufacturing errors or flaws without question. That is fair and it is the right thing to do.

Joe

[Brad Schmid]

To all who participated in this thread, thank you for keeping it civil, and for the advice. My hope was that this wouldn't start a vendor bash fest or anything like that. I had executed on the standard MM customer service process and felt I had come to a dead end, which is why I asked for some advice on what to do next. Through the evolution of this thread, I received sound advice that helped get me back on track with MM. In the end, I think their support is generally willing and capable. I'm not sure where the breakdown was with our previous communications, but I think MM management in Austin was genuinely disappointed that my calls for assistance had fallen through the cracks. And, they realize that CS should be consistent throughout their organization and one should not have to search to find the "right person" to work with. Everyone should be "the right person".

As to the resolution of my problem, MM already has a policy in place to deal with the switch problem.
1) replace the currrent AEG switch with another AEG at no charge
2) replace the current AEG switch with the new, better switch and the customer pays the warranty cost difference (~$40)

I chose solution #2, and to me this arrangement is satisfactory given my machine is beyond the standard warranty period. MM is simply the "middle man" of the AEG 1yr switch warranty and I can appreciate the fact that they have addressed my problems outside those confines. All reports from MM owners on the new style switch that I have heard are very good, and MM conveyed to me that the new switches have been trouble free. Would it have been nice to have the upgrade free of charge? Absolutely. Do I feel I have been treated unfairly by option #2? No.

Additionally, they have offered to address my table issue in a more direct fashion. If both solutions are successful, I believe I can finally look forward to many years of trouble free service from this machine.

Finally, I am pleased that at no time did I have to become confrontational to achieve my goal. Yes, I had to take time to escalate to MM management, but they already had the solution policy in place. For whatever reason, a specific support individual didn't execute based on that policy, and I suspect MM will correct the inconsistency. The fact that there is a policy in place and it requires no "special, one off" consideration tells me that MM Austin 1) recognizes there is a problem with the AEG switch, 2) implemented the policy to facilitate consistent customer service, and 3) is attempting to provide that good customer service. I'm ok with that. I believe I just happened to be the unfortunate recipient of someone somewhere along the line "dropping the ball". There are good people at MM, and they seemed genuine in telling me they will use my experience to improve their service to others. Let's hope it is so.

Thanks Jim Strain and Tim Tidwell for righting the ship. Keep after it.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks for the update, Brad!

[Howie French]

Brad, glad to see things appear to be going in the right direction.
I am curious, I received my mm16 (newer model) 10/2005.
I have not had any switch problems (or any other problems), is there
an easy way to tell if I have a newer switch or an older switch ?


Howie

[Brad Schmid]

Brad, glad to see things appear to be going in the right direction.
I am curious, I received my mm16 (newer model) 10/2005.
I have not had any switch problems (or any other problems), is there
an easy way to tell if I have a newer switch or an older switch ?


Howie

Howie,
The problematic switches like mine have the manufacturer name "AEG" on them printed in the upper right hand corner of the cover plate. I was told who the manufacturer was for the new ones, but I can't remember... It wasn't AEG though. My machine is the previous generation MM16.

[Roy Wall]

Brad,

Good for you - and good for MiniMax!

[Howie French]

Thanks Brad - I just checked, sure enough.... AEG, time will tell.

Howie

[Brad Schmid]

Howie,
I don't want to cause any confusion or alarm, so here's some pics of what I have. I have the previous generation 3.8HP 20A motor. If you have the new generation larger motor, it's likely you have a different switch, and I don't know if those had problems. In this pic, it's the black button on the right that is stuck in the in (on) position.

cheers

[Randy Denby]

I have dealt with AEG controls and switchgear working on industrial HVAC. AEG is considered good equipment. So this kinda surprises me they have had this problem. ....I guess everyone makes a fluke now and then.

[Dan Lautner]

" Through the evolution of this thread, I received sound advice that helped get me back on track with MM. In the end, I think their support is generally willing and capable."



The reason you are back on track is because of this thread. Unlike a lot of creekers that love mm and the sales staff, I think they are typical used car sleaze salesman. I have seen them in action at the shows and have talked with them many times on the phone. The only straight shooter I have dealt with is Sam Blasco. The tables not being flat is a joke and a slap in the face to the customer who is paying top dollar for an "industrial" machine. The tables should be checked by mm before they leave mm. Always put these purchases on a credit card and create a paper trail of problems to show the credit card company if needed. Put the purchase into disupte the second you feel the company is not performing. The customer sets the time frame and terms for the seller to make it right. If they don't make it right in your time frame tell them to pick up the machine and they will never see a penny in this or any other transaction from you. Also tell the fellow creekers about the issue as a heads for other potential buyers.


Dan

[Ron Bible]

I've been reading the posts on minimax problems. I purchased mm20 recently. I did have one problem at start-up. The Start switch would not work (stuck) . I took it apart and sprayed with a good quality lube/penetrating oil. Works fine now. No others so far.
While writing I would like to get sugestion on best 3/4 or 1" blade for resawing dried oak.
Thanks.

[Craig Zettle]

I too am interested in this thread because I am going through absolute heck with WMH Tool Group (JET) over a frozen faceplate on a lathe, and the breaking of fins on their pot metal pulley trying to free up the faceplate. I beleve that no matter what transpires in negotiations between the customer and the vendor, you should never have to fight with, raise your voice, be insulted, or basically called a liar by someone you just paid ANY amount of money to for a product that should work EXACTLY as billed. If it is not right every effort should be made to make it right or the transaction should be reversed. Easier said than done with the kind of equipment we are talking about, but that in itself shoud be motovation enough for the manufacturers to make their faulty equipment the way it shoud have been on the day of delivery. Telling the manufacturer to come and get their machine sounds good, but just try doing it sometime. One it is in your shop you are pretty much stuck, and they know it.

I can honestly say that I have had issues with every big machine I own, and the way the issue was handled, as in the amount of pain the customer service reps put me through, is what I base future purchases on. No matter how wonderful a machine is, there is always another manfacturer somewhere that can make it just as good. We have to stop being so loyal to people who really don't give a rats you know what about us or our financial situation. They have a financial bottom line, and it is a rare one that will cross that line to make a customer happy.

[Steven Wilson]

I have dealt with AEG controls and switchgear working on industrial HVAC. AEG is considered good equipment. So this kinda surprises me they have had this problem. ....I guess everyone makes a fluke now and then.

Randy, the AEG eletricals are quite good. The AEG switch assembly that Centuaro puts in this saw (MM doesn't make the MM16-MM36 bandsaws, and MM's other gear uses better electricals) is the lowest of the low end that you can get from AEG. It looks great on paper but the swtich assembly fails way to often. I had to replace mine (free from MM) twice and the one I have now works well. I'm glad to see that MM has finally come up with a retrofit replacement for the AEG.

[Brad Schmid]

Follow up - the new version replacement switch arrived yesterday. It's a Klockner-Moeller PKZM01 series and the construction/design appears much better than the previous AEG. It's a modular designed switch with basic switch, undervoltage trip module, and auxilliary contact module. This appears to be a very good switch. Since there seems to be little info or posts about this new switch, here are some pics to contrast it with the previous AEG.

I haven't had time to install yet, but that will be on tap for this weekend.
Cheers

[Bob Winkler]

Brad, I know it's an old thread, but I was wondering if this new switch solved your MM16 electrical issues. I finally fired up my mm16 that I've had over a year yesterday, and the switch worked for about 1 minute and now doesn't. I have a call into tech service and will see if there is any improvement in service.

[Brad Schmid]

Bob,

It absolutely did solve my problem. The better switch has been working flawlessly since i installed it in May. On the install, the only thing I had to do was drill and tap 2 new holes in the column since the spacing was different on the new switch. Good Luck.

Cheers

[Chris Barnett]

Feel fortunate. You have many inputs on your BS, but I have heard next to nothing on the new Griz series with the plastic handwheels :eek: . Even went to their store in Muncy last month...a story in itself. Was ready to order but the handwheels really turned me off. Would have to go from $1300 to $1900 to get metal with the BS :rolleyes: Would order tomorrw if nice heavy metal like the next in series. Oops, 'cuse me for getting off subject, I digress. What is price range for a 19 inch MM? Maybe its time to bite the bullet.

[Eddie Darby]

MM sounds more like M&M to me! Thanks for the heads up!!!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

bump..........

[Jim O'Dell]

Cliff, I'm confused....bump a 2 year old thread for what? Is there more information needed? Jim.

[Bruce Page]

Ditto on the confusion.:confused:

[William Addison]

The "support" people at MM are very cordial and pleasant but unfortunately they have also been useless even on simple stuff like "is depressing the foot brake suposed to turn the motor off or not?"

[Grant Vanbokklen]

Cliff, I'm confused....bump a 2 year old thread for what? Is there more information needed? Jim.

even though he does not own any of their stuff, he just wanted to keep them on their toes?

[Brad Schmid]

This was resolved for me by MM 2 years ago... Not sure the purpose of the resurrection of this thread:confused:

[Steve Clardy]

I think Cliff was bored.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Cliff, I'm confused....bump a 2 year old thread for what? Is there more information needed? Jim.

Because I may buy an MM16 and I want to see how this and other issues are resolved.

And of course because others may be interested.

So I think it's well to keep it alive.

I may be in the in minority but, there's no defamation here so there's no harm to any one.

[Bruce Page]

Because I may buy an MM16 and I want to see how this and other issues are resolved.

And of course because others may be interested.

So I think it's well to keep it alive.

I may be in the in minority but, there's no defamation here so there's no harm to any one.

Why didn't you just say that in yesterdays post? It’s certainly a legitimate question.

FWIW, I’m still happy I bought mine.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Cliff....FWIW.......I have had mine for 18 months. I love my MM-16. It works as advertised. I'm sure my two sons will fight over it when I die.

[Jerry Pata]

I to got a mm-16 last year and the table is dished in the middle .007.
Was told by my sales rep that is the factory tolerance . No offer by the
rep to correct this. My neighbor who is a retired machinist told me that the table was ground with a dull bit. Sorry to hear that I am not the only one experience poor quality equipment and service.

[Bruce Page]

I to got a mm-16 last year and the table is dished in the middle .007.
Was told by my sales rep that is the factory tolerance . No offer by the
rep to correct this. My neighbor who is a retired machinist told me that the table was ground with a dull bit. Sorry to hear that I am not the only one experience poor quality equipment and service.

Jerry, .007 in a woodworking bandsaw table is thoroughly inconsequential. If you want +/- .001 type tolerances in machining you will pay dearly. Go out and price machine shop level equipment sometime – that’s what you’re asking for.

[Rye Crane]

Hi Jerry,

If you want to correct the dish in your MM16 table, there are four bolts that locate and secure the table on it's fulcrum. These bolts may be used to change the relationship of the table to the blade in all directions. Be careful, do one bolt adjustment at a time and see what it does. Your manual has a description of these bolts and their function.

Cast Iron is very flexible, I have a Jointer/Planer 20.5 " wide it weighs 2200 pounds and if the unit is not level in all directions there is deflection on the cast iron tables.

Good Luck, let us know if you can stand up straight when you are finished adjusting the bolts. It took me several minutes and two fingers of Makers Mark to get my back to relax.

Rye Crane

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

While writing I would like to get sugestion on best 3/4 or 1" blade for resawing dried oak.

I have heard nothing but good about the Lenox Tri-Master

[Grant Vanbokklen]

I to got a mm-16 last year and the table is dished in the middle .007.
Was told by my sales rep that is the factory tolerance . No offer by the
rep to correct this. My neighbor who is a retired machinist told me that the table was ground with a dull bit. Sorry to hear that I am not the only one experience poor quality equipment and service.

dished to .007? That would make it nearly impossible to build anything :p

[Rick Fisher]

I just put a Lenox Tri-Master on my saw.. its a 1" x 3tpi..
Its a really nice blade. It was worth the investment, as it will last me years..

The first thing I cut was a scrap of 2" Sapeli... It felt like cutting 2" styrofoam.. A buddy was with me, he finished the cut and laughed at how easy it was.

On another note..

Rye.. if you feel like posting a picture of your 20.5" Jointer planer... I feel like looking at it.. :D

Pictures of big tools are always a hit here.. most of us are easily entertained..

[scott spencer]

I to got a mm-16 last year and the table is dished in the middle .007.
Was told by my sales rep that is the factory tolerance . No offer by the
rep to correct this. My neighbor who is a retired machinist told me that the table was ground with a dull bit. Sorry to hear that I am not the only one experience poor quality equipment and service.

0.007" doesn't justify a new table. Your wood moves by more than that daily.

[Don Eddard]

bump..........
Brilliant use of supporting data. :rolleyes: No surprise, I guess.

[Grant Vanbokklen]

0.007" doesn't justify a new table. Your wood moves by more than that daily.


That number 1 post by a new member has to be a joke. Or a Laguna rep..

[Rye Crane]

Hi Rick,

Here are the pictures of my FS2 the MiniMax/SCM J/P 520mm. when it was delivered. Also pictures of the ST5 Elite S. Saw Shaper combo upon delivery. You can't see it well but the power feeder is located on a articluated arm that swings to a fixture to dock it against the saw and then swings out of the way. This was the primary difference between
this S/S and the KF700 in your color scheme. Hidden from view is the MM24 bandsaw.

Rye Crane

[Chris Padilla]

My MM20 (Minimax 20" bandsaw) has a cast iron table that is not flat. The section of the table that is cut in order to get blades off and on is out a good 1/16"...at the end of the cut/table...one side of the cut. I could probably force it back level with some steel bar bolted underneath but I must admit that it hasn't impacted any cutting I've done. I've been resawing veneers of walnut 3/32" thick and they come out just fine so while it is annoying and I'm likely to do something about it, I'm all right so far....

[Jerry Pata]

Thanks Rye for the information. I read the board all the time. I never post until now,this tread hit home for me. I am new to wood working. 68 years old and trying to learn what I can. Again thanks for your kind reply.
Jerry

[Mike Heidrick]

That number 1 post by a new member has to be a joke. Or a Laguna rep..


Laguna???? When did they start supporting MM saws? I know they have been working extremely hard the last few months but that is awesome!! I know Tim at Laguna would probably try and help out of he could!!

MM is great to work within my experience. I saw that because I feel like a lifetime tool buyer of theirs every time I call them and my bandsaw was a used MM20!!! Sam Blasco can just about sort out anything in the MM line. Anyone try him?

I am sure glad I have not looked for perfection in my BIG tools. My woodworking would fail in comparison.

[Grant Vanbokklen]

Laguna???? When did they start supporting MM saws? I know they have been working extremely hard the last few months but that is awesome!! I know Tim at Laguna would probably try and help out of he could!!

I was just being a smartass about the post being from a Laguna representitive. Sorry, that post saying how upset they were with a .007 dish in the table as if MM band saws were dropping the ball so badly. .007 dish in the middle of an MM16 table is insignificant. And then the machinist saying they used a dull bit, total bull. Lets see pictures to back things up if new posters are going to start cutting down a good company.

[Jerry Pata]

I was just being a smartass about the post being from a Laguna representitive. Sorry, that post saying how upset they were with a .007 dish in the table as if MM band saws were dropping the ball so badly. .007 dish in the middle of an MM16 table is insignificant. And then the machinist saying they used a dull bit, total bull. Lets see pictures to back things up if new posters are going to start cutting down a good company.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=119439&stc=1&d=1243564224 Here is a picture of my m-16 table top. As you can
see where the bit to ground the top its all over the place. There for the top is dished out. I hope this proves me out.
Jerry

[Grant Vanbokklen]

Ok so maybe your not just trying to troll. There are quite a bit of abrasive scratches on parts of the top you show. Was there rust there you tried to remove with sandpaper? Please show a picture of the entire top. You can see where the "machining" is and you can see where abrasive scratched the top. Looks classically like sandpaper scratches.

[Jerry Pata]

Ok so maybe your not just trying to troll. There are quite a bit of abrasive scratches on parts of the top you show. Was there rust there you tried to remove with sandpaper? Please show a picture of the entire top. You can see where the "machining" is and you can see where abrasive scratched the top. Looks classically like sandpaper scratches.
That picture was taken the day I cleaned the goo off with kerozine.
There were no rust on the the table. NO sand paper touched it.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Hi Rick,

Here are the pictures of my FS2 the MiniMax/SCM J/P 520mm. when it was delivered. Also pictures of the ST5 Elite S. Saw Shaper combo upon delivery. You can't see it well but the power feeder is located on a articluated arm that swings to a fixture to dock it against the saw and then swings out of the way. This was the primary difference between
this S/S and the KF700 in your color scheme. Hidden from view is the MM24 bandsaw.

Rye Crane


Rye, glad to see I'm not alone in feeling the need to jack a Euro machine up a few inches;)

[Grant Vanbokklen]

demand a new table if the .007 dish and those little scratches are all that is wrong with the saw. Would you be happy then? Have you done any cutting yet?

[Tom Godley]

While the top of my MM does not look as bad as the top of Jerry's - I do have a section that does.

I am not sure how the top is made. But it looks like the top must go through initial polishing after it is cast - and then it is given a final machining to make it flat also leaving a machined finish vs a polished one.

But - When they give it the final grind it looks like they just want to get near flat. I have a small section just like Jerry's top where it was not ground all the way down to remove that polished area.

It is very strange. At first look I thought that the smooth shinny section was what the whole top should have looked like - but on closer inspection it is clear that this is a prior step in the process. But just like Jerry's my top looks like it was ground with a dull or incorrect grit wheel - mine is basically flat - not pretty.

People have commented on other posts that these are tools not automobiles -- they are made to do a job and one should not expect the level of fit finish that you would see on a consumer product. That may be true - but the finish grind on my top was substandard by any measure - and I would think that a company would want to insure that an item so visible be of a better quality - just for sales reasons.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

To be fair: Cast Iron is a very dynamic material. There are stresses galore in it and grinding one side of a piece of cast is a sure fire way to start the stress relieving process off on the wrong foot.

How they'd grind both surfaces with a hollowed out webbed design is -- well - - not really doable. They'd have to do what Cincinnati and Bridgeport do. Cast it solid and grind all sides. Which might make the saw too costly to be a hobby shop tool - even a high end one.

And then there's that slot down the middle of a band saw table. That, standing alone has to be a problem as the stresses come out of the iron.

The only way I know of to de-stress the iron is to season it. Old school seasoning is done by letting it sit a year or two outside in the weather and then machine it. I have heard about Liquid Nitrogen seasoning I don't know it it works as well as time in the elements.

And then there's Mehanite. It's a tougher, stronger, less bouncy, less crack prone, less sensitive to casting thickness irregularities, and less stress prone cast iron. Mehanite is the preferred cast iron of commercial machinery builders. And yah it costs more.

Hobby class machinery is - - well - - hobby class machinery. You get less because you pay lots less than the industrial machines cost.
Price out a brand new Do-All band saw and you'll see.

As a general propostion I think it is unrealistic to expect that every hobby class saw top is gong to be flat. I thnik it is unrealistic to expect that any such saw top is going to come flat from the factory. Stresses start working their way out of the cast iron immediately upon de molding and continue to do so for years. The Cast iron will have changed shape between the time they machine it to the time it's delivered and then it'll keep on changing.


The table moving being dished, twisted, or convex is easily solved by doing what some here have said: applying heavy bar stock underneath with tapped holes preferably 3/8-16 to 1/2-13 threads and using that to bring the table to a flatter state. Honestly, I believe that if a person wants flat cast iron tops for his machinery that this is a tecknique that he absolutely must master and expect to apply.

It's the components of the MiniMax Big Dog Band Saw that are entirely under factory control ( and entirely out of mine) like the electronics the relay magnetic switch the bearings and races into which they are fitted, motor performance, you know: the things that no amount of machine owner savvy will get fixed on the shop floor. Those are the key considerations for me.

Annoying disabilities like having to de-tension the blade is in my opinion a complete failure of engineering and design. Only the crappiest of bearings and racemount engineering could force the owner to have to take such extreme measures. Wheels that slip out of co-planatity all by themselves is a failure of engineering and design. Tires that just give up and let go is a failure of engineering and design.

Call me spoiled but, I've run Grobb and Do-All band saws for years and these issues simply never arise. So I'm keen on learning if they plague the owners of hobby class machines. Even top of the class of hobby machines.

I've been a member of the Felder Owner's Group for a while. The complaints that surface from time to time about the onboard computers and electronics strike me as at a tad off putting. When you hit the go butten the machinery shuld run. I don't think I want a comuter in a wood working machine. It's just one more thing that when it goes south it does so in a horrible way.

So for me, posts like this are enormously valuable.
Some guy bought a tool and did not allowed himself to become infatuated with the Brand or the Paint Scheme as so very many people do. Instead he sees the flaws and talks about them.

[Rye Crane]

Jerry,

Thanks, I'm on my way to 64 in August, so I'm just a little behind you. I got interested in woodworking when I was in my 50's and just read and read before buying anything. Then I started with handtools and a bandsaw (delta 14") I still have the Delta saw and use it for scroll work, etc. I was fortunate to meet Chris Gochner at a ww show in Sacramento and asked him about hand tools. That's his passion. I was able to take three weekend courses with him and learned a great deal. Now even though I have the corded tools I call them my "powered apprentices" to flatten and square the stock. I still use hand tools at every opportunity. It's fun and since you can go slow and sneak up on a fit for joinery it works for me.

Good luck and keep posting, if you want to pm me I'm at
ryecrane@hotmail.com I'd be glad to share what little I have learned in a this short time being involved in this hobby.

Chris,
Please read my post about the MM table attachments that will change the level and squareness to the blade on your bandsaw. I also had a offset between the two areas and it's easily fixed if you are flexable and a real pain the the arse if you are not but just do one bolt at a time, you can flex that table easily 1/4" in all directions.

Good luck,
Rye Crane

[Rye Crane]

Rick,

Those were just blocks I used after forklifting the machines into my garage. I put the J/P on some vibration damping feet I got from McMaster Carr they are adjustable and also swivel. I used a different type of pad with steel shims to set up my S/S and it's stayed put for the last year. It has no vibration anywhere. Must be the chunk of concrete in the bottom. I used the zambus casters for the MM24 and it raised the saw up about 3". It's ok I'm 6' and lower is probably just a little better for resawing anything big. You don't have to lift it very far to make the table. I've got a chunk of cocobolo that weighs in at 165 lbs. I need help to get that thing up on the saw for sure!

Rye

[Rye Crane]

Jerry,

I just saw your pictures and the factory in Modena, Italy uses a blanchard grind to flatten the tables. I have a pretty severe gouge from the rigors of transportation. Eventually I got around to taking the table off and over to a machine shop with a blanchard surface grinder. They took their time and leveled the top. Unfortunately they didn't ask me or if I was a little smarter maybe I would have thought about how they were going to set up the machine. The table should have been set up and leveled on the machined boss under the table where those four bolts live. Those miserable four bolts that can take you a week of fiddling with once you try to remount that damn table. DAMHIK. (dont' ask me how I know)

When the ground it they set it up be leveling the table with the bottom of the edges. Long story short they took off 50 thousandths instead of a clean up grind. Anyway now the miter gauge had to be ground down to match and it all works well.

If you can make the table square in two directions to the blade you are good to go. If the wood bounces up and down a little it just has a fun ride past the blade and it will not matter in the quality of the sawing.

If there were .007 runout on the saw arbor you would have a problem. Or if the distance in your outfeed table on your jointer was off .007 you would really notice it. Bandsaws can be used for exacting cuts in joinery. It's mostly a function of vibration, cut quality, and squareness that governs your finished piece.

The pictures show someone used a grinder or sander on your table somewhere along the way. If it were a new table I would regrind it with a proper blanchard grind. Email me if you want more info on how to go about that.


Good Luck,
Rye